Topic: Limits; Self imposed
started by: Wolfen
Posted by Wolfen on Dec. 31 2001,04:45
Let us live!!!Let us love!!!
Let us share the deepest secrets of our souls!!!
You first.
You ever wonder why it is so hard for people to believe we can do more than science tells us? Is science so all knowing? Can it tell us the meaning of life? Does it presume to limit a God; if there is one... how COULD we prove it? How could we step out of our reallity and into his?
Maybe we are the Sims to God... maybe he can save the game and come back to it later... maybe he can restore an old saved game until he gets it right... maybe he tried to give all of the souls in the universe a perfect world, but found the result to be boring and predictable. After all... we may just be for his entertainment. And how would the Sims step out of their reality and into ours? Would their science be able to prove we exist, or {gasp} prove that we do not exist...
So admiting that there may be other realities outside of our own could be the same as when we finally admitted that the Earth was not the center of the universe (a pompus belief, but we stood by it steadfastly)... it just took the right people looking at it from the right perspective... evidence that had always been there, but remaining elusive due to lack of technology, closed-mindedness, and a lot of running around in the face of incomplete, but compelling evidence saying, "La, la, la, I'm not listening...", instead of researching the evidence to see where it might lead.
Just think if the only thing stopping us from realizing our full potential is this steadfast belief that our scientifically provable reality is the only one. Just like a kid who is always told that he/she is ugly, will grow up to feel ugly, and therefore project ugliness, so we have been raised being told that we cannot do certain scientifically unprovable things (psychic powers, etc...), and therefore believe it. If there is a God, and if he did make us in his image, do you really think he said, "oh, yeah, except for the really cool stuff." Maybe Jesus was a normal human, maybe he was raised being taught that he was a messiah and was not limited like all of the rest of us... maybe his belief in himself gave him those abilities. Maybe if we believed in ourselves we could use those same abilities.
Wolfen
Posted by ic0n0 on Dec. 31 2001,07:27
Those are some interesting thoughts and I agree that by accepting science wholeheartedly we may be ignoring many other possibilities but I am not to fond of basing reality on what other people (the religious fanatical types or scientists for that matter) tell me it is. But at least with most science it is measurable and can be recreated and to me that means something.
Posted by sHuoReNviOLiN on Dec. 31 2001,17:57
A kinda tangent...maybe once upon a time, Zeus and Mount Olympus -did- exist, and came down and interfered with our lives, because people believed they would. And once they were conquered, and they stopped believing, then *poof* there goes Mount Olympus. Same with God and however many prophets/messiahs/whatevers he might have had...once we stopped believing that they'd come and make miracles, they stopped doing so. Heck, maybe bowling balls actually did fall faster than pennies until Galileo came around and convinced everyone otherwise...
Posted by Wolfen on Dec. 31 2001,20:44
Don't get me wrong; I believe in the laws of physics... in this reality. I think that the rate of Gravity is the same on all falling objects (in a vacuume, etc...). But these are things that are simple to test. What is not so simple to test is the ability to read minds. Sure, a scientist might say, "Okay, what am I thinking now?"...(this is a sloppy and inconclusive test). Then you have to ask what part of the mind are we reading... conscious, subconscious, alpha waves...? Can that scientist lock in his mind so well that he knows what he is transmitting at that moment. Then there is the question of how well in control of his/her ability is the subject? Do they know how to control it, or does it just "keep sort of happening, but too frequently to be assigned to coincidence".
Ah, there is the rub... to find a test subject who is in control enough for a scientist to even define the parameters of the test, much less test for conclusive evidence.
...
So, what brought on this rant, you might ask...
Frustration!
I have been accidentally reading minds since I was 7 years old and am getting tired of it! I want to control it, but am finding it very hard to find anyone who can give any reputable advice. Plus, I keep trying to convince myself that it is all my imagination (all in my head, he he). I guess I want someone to come along and say, "here try this, if it doesn't work then it is all your imagination, and you can stop stressing over it." Wouldn't that be cool?
Meanwhile, on a daily basis, I hear from nearly every one I talk to, "Hey! I was just about to say that...", or, "Get out of my head, I was just thinking that..."... and to keep my sanity, I keep telling myself that it is all just because I am perceptive and can jump to logical conclusions about what people might be thinking... I'm just very exact when I do it.
Wolfen
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Dec. 31 2001,21:40
well science is by definition the explanation of all things measurable. reading minds will no doubt eventually be proven by science. but things that exist outside of science are probably things that are beyond our contemplation seing as we live in a world where science exists... an interesting paradox
Posted by Wolfen on Dec. 31 2001,22:44
| Quote |
| but things that exist outside of science are probably things that are beyond our contemplation... |
To contemplate something is not to know it... you can contemplate the existance of God, but science cannot prove it. If we were limited to comtemplate only what science has taught, then we would have never figured out the world was round... it was round before science came along. I'm sure someone contemplated a round world before science proved it to be true.
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Jan. 01 2002,00:45
but to prove such things exist in this existance would require some form of science. to imagine such things isnt impossible but to actually experience them may be.EDIT: [pirates_of_penzance]#a paradox a paradox hahahahahaha a most ingenious paradox!#[pirates_of_penzance]
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 01 2002,01:31
I was about to engage my trusty Net::Flamethrower and burn off all of your false conclusions about Science, but I realized something more interesting and helpful than a rant :Any scientist with a decent understanding of neurobiology will tell you that you can read minds. All human beings can, with a few exceptions.
This sort mind reading is more properly called "empathy." It's not "mind reading" in the classic supernatural sense - it doesn't allow you to look at someone and know exactly what they're thinking - but it does a pretty good job.
To see it at work, just look at this smiley :
Notice how looking at him gives you a little burst of happiness? That's empathy at work! Your prefrontal lobes analyzed the sensory data you got from the image, decided that the face was a happy one, and reported its decision by making your emotions mimic what they happy face is feeling.
There's a lot more information to deal with when dealing with a human being, but the principle is the same - empathy takes whatever sense information you have at the moment, makes a quick sketch of the emotional content of that data, and then reports it by making you feel that way for a second - which is why angry people make you angry, sad people make you sad, and happy people make you happy!
--
Wolfen, I know what you're talking about when you say you're trying to shut the others out of your mind. That's one of the big reasons I started taking Paxil. I wanted to have some control over my own feelings and reactions!
Lots of people will give you lots of different advice, but here are the two treatments that have a ton of evidence to back them up :
- cognitive behavioral therapy, which teaches and reinforces basic mental discipline. The fundamental theory is that a lot of your reactions to people, places, and things are learned behaviors, and that by thinking critically about your responses you can reprogram them. In practice, a cognitive-behavioral therapist will teach you the fundamentals of rhetoric and debate, help you identify your automatic thoughts, and suggest better ways you could deal with the same situation. With time and practice, these newer, better ways of responding become automatic, and instead of thinking "fucking prick! I hate his guts!" when someone gets angry at you, you start thinking "ah, that person is angry. Calm yourself, grasshopper!"
- Prozac or other antidepressants. Empathy is part of the dopamine system, which is moderated by serotonin-based neurons. In my own experience, SSRI's like Prozac not only turn down the noise inside my head, they also clean up the signal a lot.
Posted by Wolfen on Jan. 01 2002,02:22
ooooh, Jon... that MUST be you... everything is fixed with Paxil...well, you mis-understand why I am frustrated. It is not that I think someone is angry with me... it is that people keep getting surprised by what I say (and a little scared), because they are thinking the exact same thing... example:
Last night I'm reading a novel (really boring so I won't tell you what it was), but I start hearing 'Sunday Morning' by No Doubt in my head. I think, "that's strange, I must be really bored with this book." So I turn to my wife to start talking and I notice that there is a full-page article on Gwen Stephani open in the magazine she is reading... I ask her, "What song is going through your head right now?"
She says, "Nothing at all...", but she is looking at me kind of wierd.
So I say, "Well 'Sunday Morning is going through my head, and I just looked over and saw that article and was wondering if you had started playing it in your head."
She hesitates, "I was thinking about that song... I just lied to you because you are starting to scare me."
She then tell me that her mind is her private property and I am not to intrude anymore... problem is, I don't know how to control it. I keep doing it.
Although Paxil would probably make it so that I don't care as much, the problem still exists.
Wolfen.
Posted by Vigilante on Jan. 01 2002,04:43
I suggest you speak to a representative of the CIA. Though they will undoubtedly seem unimpressed at first, expect to be abducted from your sleep at an undisclosed date in the future. From there you will be subjected to rigorous testing and training as a super-spy whose existence will be categorically denied. Good luck, Psi-Agent 31337.
(PS: If you're starting to hear No Doubt in your head, I can definitely sympathize. I hope you find a solution before Gwen's twittering worsens.)
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 01 2002,05:10
| Quote |
| ooooh, Jon... that MUST be you... everything is fixed with Paxil... |
Bullshit. You knew it was me by my exquisite reasoning.
Anyhow, SEAN, I've worried about your sanity since I first met you, right after your mom got out of the Napa mental hospital
Seriously, though, when I don't hear from Mr. Logic for a couple months and he comes back and tells everyone he's psychic, I'm bound to be a little concerned. Especially given that I know what you're talking about and what it can to do a mind. Just making sure you're staying on the good side of the madness/genius divide
So. Like Wolfen, I have an overpowering sixth sense that I discovered many years ago. I've never bought the unconvincing mumbo-jumbo "psychics" spit out, though. My scientific mind won't let me and I am glad for that. In the end it means I have a much more accurate description of how it works than psychics do, which means I can use it much more effectively.
I don't talk about it much. A lot of people have pointed it out to me and I always tell them that psychic New Age voodoo crap is the biggest load of B.S. I've ever heard of. It's pretty rare the conversation goes beyond that.
edit : Having the same song going thru your head as someone else is actually very common. I'd guess you spotted the pic of Gwen Stefani without it registering in your consciousness, which called the song up from your memory... then you spotted the picture and had the same eerie feeling I have all too often.
Posted by Wolfen on Jan. 01 2002,05:58
Lucifer;Admitted... maybe I did see the picture out of the corner of my eye, but just like the cards with shapes on them that scientists use to "transmit" an image to a test subject, there were MANY No Doubt songs she could have been thinking of at that moment.
But like you, I question this daily. I am questioning it now. It just gets harder and harder to dismiss it as coincidence when it KEEPS HAPPENING!
As far as my sanity is concerned...
You know me, I have always had my head in the clouds just a little bit. I am always seeing what boundaries can be pushed, while at the same time staying grounded in what is real.
You used to be a bit of a dreamer too. Careful who you say should be medicated... there were some who believed man would walk on the moon well before it was scientifically plausible... should they have been medicated?
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 01 2002,06:49
| Quote (Wolfen @ Jan. 01 2002,05:58) |
use Net::Flamethrower;
| Quote |
| Lucifer, |
that's Damien to you, pal
| Quote |
| You used to be a bit of a dreamer too. Careful who you say should be medicated... |
I was talking about sleeping longer. If you sleep longer, don't you dream more? like, DUH!!!!
Anyway, you're the one who used to tell me that logic ruled over everything. I always said that there was more to it than that. That doesn't make reason null and void. It's still the best tool we have. Doubly so when trying to separate imagination from reality.
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Jan. 02 2002,00:18
check out darren brown you aint got shit on this guy he can conciously put thoughts INTO your brain. and its just advanced psychology.< http://www.channel4.com/mindcontrol/ >
the tv shows better than the site but hey i didnt record the show now did i!!!
Posted by incubus on Jan. 02 2002,19:45
We pick up a lot of information subconsciously and we don't realise it. Stuff like music is a particular thing we share an affinity with. Our senses are constantly taking on a lot of information, our minds are very capable of synthesizing everything as a 'background process'. This would explain a lot of the 'supernatural' stuff people got going on.
Posted by Wolfen on Jan. 02 2002,23:02
I MUST (no you can't!) SHARE (don't do it!) THIS!! (nooooo!!!)Okay, I know this takes this topic to a 'different' level; but, ask Damien_S_Lucifer, I do this all the time.
So my wife is going to work at Joe's Crab Shack. This is an awsome restaurant who's motto is, "Joe's Crab Shack! An embarassment to ANY neighborhood!". But the really cool thing about it is that they hire mostly college girls to work there, and they have mandatory synchronized dancing every half hour... and the girls have to dress in jeans that show off their nubile figures (lucky for me, my wife just happens to still look like she is sixteen).
Anyway, this gets me to thinking (about 2:00pm CST today), 'What if we get back into having 3-somes... wouldn't that be a cool way for me and my wife to pick up chicks!"
Anyway, about 5 minutes ago, my wife calls me and says, "I couldn't tell you earlier, cause I was at work, but, I was thinking we might find some new playmates at Joe's Crab Shack, those chicks are just so cute!"
So would you guys classify this as psychic, or just another coincidence?
(And yes, I know I am INCREDIBLY lucky!)
Oh, and before all you guys starts saying, "Hey, we want to join in!"; She is only interested in girls for this... and besides, one of our rules is that we BOTH have to be attracted to the perspective playmate, and so far I haven't met a guy that I am attracted to, sorry.
We are slowly corrupting young women in Memphis.
Wolfen.
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Jan. 03 2002,02:25
darren brown can actually do jedi mind tricks btw he's managed to convince the bookies to give him money on the losing dog at the tracks ffs! repeatedly! its so like obi wan in star wars its scary!
Posted by Wolfen on Jan. 03 2002,03:01
Okay, you convinced me, I'm gonna check this guy out right after Southpark. (the cosmic mysteries will have to wait, Big Gay Al is on tonight... he's sssuper!).
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 03 2002,03:19
wolfen, the probability of you and your wife both thinking about threesomes is actually very high. You guys both have one-track minds, which puts the probability damn near 1.0 And remember - empathetic communication doesn't magically travel across time and space. Like all other forms of communication, it needs a carrier. This basically means the person either needs to be nearby or communicating with you via "normal" means - post, telephone, email, etc.
Darren Brown uses the same techniques as other highly social people; he's just repackaged them to sound more magical-but-scientific. Check out Dale Carnegie's < How to Win Friends and Influence People >. It's probably the best book ever written on basic social skills. It's still in print, so you can snag it off Amazon.
Posted by editor on Jan. 16 2002,05:31
My own 2 cents;It's not that you're reading their mind, so much as they are broadcasting!
You're just being receptive.
I can often pick up a number that someone is thinking about, since they are concentrating on it.
Normal streamofconciousness I'm deaf to.
thank God!
Posted by TheTaxMan on Jan. 17 2002,17:13
The fun thing is, it is all part of the elctro-chemical responses in the brain itself. A professor did a study on this a while back. He showed various pictures of men and woman who were in different moods to women. Then he did the same thing to a group of men. The results showed that woman could accurately describe the mood of the person >90% of the time and the men could only succeed approximately 60% of the time. What does this all mean? Well, not much, unfortunately. Although, I imagine it would be possible (becasue the brain is 100% electro-chemcial reactions to stimulus) to create a chemical that actually would allow people to 'read minds' or know exactly what someone was thinking by the look on their face. A useful skill, that would be. As previously stated, yes, some people already do it. It might just be a larger portion of your brain is devouted to this task, or more likely, you have a more developed region in your brain that allows to read people more easily. Fairly interesting stuff. I wonder how much 'power' is actually in the brain or can be evolved. Reading faces is one thing. Manipulation is another.
Posted by Hellraiser on Jan. 24 2002,03:24
I beg to differ. There's a lot more to brain functions than electro-chemical reactions to stimuli. If that were all it were, we'd know everything there is to know about the brain by now, but any biologist will tell you that the ratio of what we know about the brain to what we have yet to unravel and understand is still a very unbalanced figure.
Posted by TheTaxMan on Jan. 24 2002,17:07
And who's to say what we don't understand about the brain isn't also electro-chemical? Surely you don't conciede we have a soul?! 
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Jan. 25 2002,01:36
#weird science!! pictures from a magazine. diagrams and charts mending broken hearts, to make weird science. something like a recipe. bits and pieces and bits and pieces bits and my creation is it real?! its my creation! i do not know.#