I hate people who think they're better than others because they're straight-edge... loosen up, you morons!

Finally, no matter how much you claim to be opposed to "mind-altering drugs," if you drink alcohol or caffeinated beverages, you are a drug user. If you LIKE alcohol or caffeine, you LIKE mind-altering drugs. So stop talking out of your hypocritical ass.

Case in point (excuse that it's not a human drug):

Ivermectin (manufactured by Merck): used in HeartGard for dogs and various other treatments.

Dosage: 7 micrograms I'll use a Neal Stephenson/Sangamon Taylor reference here and say that's about the size of 7 periods.

I know a guy who mixed a small amount of the stuff with paint and painted the bottom of his boat with it. Barnacles died when they tried to attach themselves.

On another note, I was listening to an NPR program some years ago where a doctor said that pharmaceutical-grade heroin is not actually damaging to the human body.

Just some food for thought, though it will probably end up fuel for flames...

------------------
A good programmer is someone who looks both ways on a one-way street

what i do have a problem with is people on drugs. people who think that some chemical substance is their 'get-out-of-life-free' card to use whenver they don't want to deal with reality, because generally these are the people who believe it's impossible to be open minded or enlightened unless your brain is chemical soup.

hey, if you want to turn your melon into a bowl of cottage cheese, that's fine by me, but going around calling people hypocrites and insulting them for not thinking the way you do isn't exactly a result of drugs making you smarter or wiser. if anything, it's closed the mind you claim it's opened.

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
I hate people who think they're better than others because they're straight-edge... loosen up, you morons!

---

sounds a lot like you're sayin you're better than those who are straight edge. who was it you were calling a hypocrite again?

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

[This message has been edited by kuru (edited September 05, 2000).]

P.S. Zodiac ruled.

However, I do think I'm better than people who think they are better and/or smarter than me because they don't do drugs... or that doing drugs automatically kills your brain. All that says to me is those people haven't done their research and are simply talking out their ass.

Some drugs will make you stupid very quickly (MPTP, huffing gasoline). Some drugs will make you stupid only if you overdose or otherwise use them excessively (Ecstasy, methamphetamine, LSD, alcohol). Some drugs won't make you stupid, period (marijuana, caffeine). Of course a lot of drugs will make you temporarily stupid until they wear off... but that's the point.

Those of us who do drugs responsibly can and do deal with reality. Sometimes we need to take a break from it. Saying we shouldn't is like saying schools shouldn't have recess, workplaces shouldn't allow breaks, and people shouldn't sleep. Everyone needs downtime to function effectively.

A hypocrite is someone that doesn't practice what he or she preaches. A moron is someone who judges without knowledge. An open mind isn't afraid to call it as it sees it... but also isn't afraid to admit when it's wrong.

[This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer (edited September 05, 2000).]

quote:

---

Drugs are fun. They made me happier, smarter, and wiser.

---

By extension, you're adopting the position that drug use makes you 'smarter' and 'wiser' than non-drug users (straight-edgers). Do you know this for a fact? Do you have an straight-edge identical twin who's dumber than you? No? Than you're a moron by your own definition, and consequently a hypocrite.

quote:

---

Originally posted by The_Hiro:
kuru's correct. You are a hypocrite. Your hypocrisy stems from your attack on straight-edge individuals, whom you claim are morons for believing themselves to be superior to you, whilest you implicitly believe yourself to be superior to straight-edgers.

---

I preach that drugs are good. I can back this up because I've done my research by reading about them, observing other people take them, and taking them myself. People who DON'T take drugs (I spent the first 19 years of my life clean & sober), and only read anti-drug literature (I've read a ton of this), are researching the subject very minimally... then they go out and judge others that DO take drugs, telling them they're weak and killing their brains etc., without knowing what the fuck they're talking about.

If you don't want to take drugs, that's fine with me, I'll respect you for it. But don't try and shove it down my throat by legislating it.

quote:

---

By extension, you're adopting the position that drug use makes you 'smarter' and 'wiser' than non-drug users (straight-edgers). Do you know this for a fact?

---

I'm certainly not adopting that position. I only said that they have made ME smarter and wiser, and I know this because I remember how I was before I started taking them. I was an anti-drug fanatic who wouldn't be friends with anyone who did them, because I thought people that did them were morons. I didn't consider anything that was influenced by drugs to have any worth.

Sound familiar?

By the way, the guy that got me into drugs just got his MS in mathematics... a 4.0 average... he once told me "I always take tests when I'm high. It makes things that used to bore me absolutely fascinating. I pay more attention to what I'm doing. That's how it makes me smarter."

------------------
[color=blue][size=7]Kazooda'pimp

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:

Some drugs will make you stupid only if you overdose or otherwise use them excessively (Ecstasy, methamphetamine, LSD, alcohol). Some drugs won't make you stupid, period marijuana, caffeine).

---

as to your first sentence, LSD and Ecstacy are chemicals specifically designed to alter brain chemistry. they work because they change the chemicals that travel between synapses in the brain. with any drug that does this, there's a fairly high risk that the brain will never go back to a normal state, even if it is altered only once. that is, anything that alters brain chemistry is naturally dangerous to the normal function of the brain.

second, marijuana and caffeine aren't even close to being the same class of drug. THC works on the brain itself, whereas caffeine's biggest effect is to cause the body to release more of its own adrenaline, endorphins, raise heart rate and constrict capillaries. caffeine doesn't directly work on the brain. and while the doses of THC necessary to cause actual brain damage are extremely high (lethal dose is 10 lbs of marijuana per hour, for 48 hours), that's not to say that it doesn't have an effect. it's also a danger to the lungs. not as much so as tobacco smoke, because there is less tar and often fewer chemicals added.

which brings up another point about marijuana. in and of itself, smoking a joint is going to be less harmful to your body than smoking a cigarette, unless it's laced with something. any liquid drug can be dripped onto a joint and allowed to dry, quite a few of which DO have serious effects. unless you know that nothing's been added to that marijuana, you can't claim it won't do anything to your brain. a joint laced with a bad bacth of E might end with a trip to the hospital.

so, damien, while i might not be there dropping acid or sticking needles full of heroin into my veins, i'm hardly a moron. to act like you know more about drugs than someone who doesn't actually do drugs is pretty foolish.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kazoo:

I think straight-edge is a front for kids who choose to stay sober. There is nothing straight about it. Most edgers end up frustrated and angy with life,joining a group of straight edgers bent on stopping the use of drugs, and then violently acting out against someone they love. This is well documented and I believe it has to do with a lack of personal release of agression.

---

i'm not "straight edge" but i do choose not to do drugs like E, acid, cocaine, heroin. i smoke weed sometimes, not to prove something to my friends or to make myself smarter, just to cut loose and relax. i also know that it's got negative impacts on me, just like everything else. after all, the reason we get drunk from alcohol is because it's a poison. i guess you could call me more "straight edge" than most, but i hardly see how it's a front for anything. it hasn't made me aggressive, frustrated or violent. it's also not the case that drugs are the only release for agression. if that's what you're saying, then drugs are a crutch. they're an excuse not to get off your ass and live. not that i'm picking on drugs only, i dislike any form of excuse to hide from life.

like i said before, i have no problem with people doing drugs if they so choose. but recognize that it is a choice and not something that the evil, frustrating world made you do. to say that you have to do drugs because you're young and angsty is a cop-out. don't make excuses. if you choose to do drugs because of the way you feel when you're high, admit to it.

i drink. i get drunk. i smoke weed sometimes. why? not because i have some sort of inability to deal with my agression issues or my frustration, but because i like it. most of the time, i'm sober, because i also like the way my brain works when chemicals like alcohol and thc aren't influencing the thought process.

ok.. this post is way too long, so i'll just step back.. and watch the flames.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

[This message has been edited by kuru (edited September 06, 2000).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:

- not all drugs that directly affect the brain can be said to alter brain chemistry in a "harmful" way. The amphetamine class of drugs (E, meth, etc.) work by causing neurons that release serotonin to release more serotonin more often, eventually causing the cell to wither and die. This is obviously bad.

---

hence my point about drugs that alter brain chemistry causing harm. the receptors for seratonin die, the body's natural production of seratonin drops off, and depression results.

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:

Marijuana and the opiates, on the other hand, act as direct replacements for certain neurotransmitters (endorphin for opiates, anandamide for THC) but don't kill the neurons. In fact, your body will detect the overabundance of these neurotransmitters and grow more nerve endings to receive them. When you stop taking these drugs, the nerve endings will slowly disappear as your brain adjusts to the lower levels of these chemicals.

---

your statement here contradicts your previous claims that these drugs do nothing to alter the brain itself. creating more receptors for any type of neurotransmitter leads to a deacreased ability for the body to effectively deal with the natural stores of such things as endorphins. here you're not just talking about brain chemistry, but the actual brain itself. though i've never actually seen any research that suggests the brain randomly grows more nerves in order to accomodate higher levels of neurotransmitters, i have seen research that indicates that levels of neurotranismitters that are too high cause 'burn out' of the producer and receptor cells, and death to these cells. you directly state this in the first excerpt from your last post, and then contradict it in the second one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:

Anyway, one beer will do more brain damage than *most* recreational drugs... X, speed, and coke being noticable exceptions...

---

maybe so, but you're neglecting to realize that the negative impacts of a lot of the chemicals people take to get high aren't just in the brain. hell, even drugs that are used medicinally often have side extremely dangerous side effects to other parts of the body. too much acceleration of the heart rate can lead to cardiac arrest, an increase in blood pressure can lead to aneurism, the popular form of alcohol "everclear" can cause immediate blindness. you've focused your idea of harm entirely too strictly on merely "brain damage."

maybe it won't turn you into a vegetable if you take E, but who wants to bite off their own tongue?

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

[This message has been edited by kuru (edited September 06, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by kuru (edited September 06, 2000).]

And it is also a fact that many people start out with the softer, "safe" drugs, but soon want more and more of a high, and start taking harder and harder drugs. By staying away from all drugs, I don't open myself to these opportunities.

I do not look down on people who take drugs, I realize that I am no better than they are. But I would never take the drugs myself, and I feel that they should be controlled substances.

I would never take most of the prescription or over the counter drugs that are available today either, because I don't want to suffer the side effects, and I have been lucky enough not to need any.

And as to the statement "drugs are good" that needs to be quantified. Certain drugs have certain effects on certain people that can be considered "good" such as increased mental clarity, relief from depression, etc. But most of these drugs also have certain effects on certain people that can be considered "bad" such as the low experienced after a high, physical and psychological addiction, withdrawal symptoms as people stop taking them, not to mention that sustaining a habit of some of these is extremely taxing on the wallet. So it is not true to say that "drugs are good" because when all is said and done, most of them are not good for most of the people who take them.

Let's also look at a few statistics which illustrate a good point: a higher percentage of people who take drugs are involved in serious crimes than people who don't take drugs. The average life expectancy of people who take drugs is lower than the life expectancy of people who don't.

And just so you don't get my terminology confused, when I say drugs I am referring to controlled substances and illegal substances.

You cannot say most of those things about people who drink coffee: however most of those things can be said about people who drink alcohol frequently. That's one reason that I don't drink much or frequently. "A little wine is good for the stomach", but "be not drunken of wine wherein is excess." In other words, drink in moderation and you should not have problems. In fact many studies are showing that a small amount of alcohol each day is actually healthy for you.

And I have read up on these things too: so don't go calling me a moron.

BUT I'd rather be a "moron" that is intelligent enough to not take drugs than be a "wise guy" who thinks he is above the effects of said drugs, and dies at age 30 of an overdose. Make of that what you will.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
...the popular form of alcohol "everclear" can cause immediate blindness.

---

I don't think thats everclear, but rather Methanol, which is often produced when making moonshine. Everclear is just nearly pure ethyl alcohol, so it can cause alcohol poisoning quite easily.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

methanol does produce blindness, but ethanol can produce it too. one of the other problems with such strong concentrations of ethanol is that it pulls moisture from its surroundings...including the tissue in your body. fill a double shot glass with a strong enough distillation of ethanol and it will pull enough moisture from the throat as it goes down to cause a swelling that results in asphyxia. translation, your throat slams shut and you can't breathe.

this isn't somethin i read anywhere, but during chemistry class, after distilling ethanol to about 190 proof (95\% pure alcohol), i took about a 2 mL pipette of it down the throat... i don't reccomend tryin this. it burns like hell, and the throat goes into a spasm and closes off.

alcohol is a nasty little chemical.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

quote:

---

Kuru wrote:
maybe it won't turn you into a vegetable if you take E...

---

Actually, it just might. E isn't as pure as it once was, and a lot of rollers are dropping more and more to keep up - on a regular basis. Needless to say, the high lessens, and more and more is taken. You'll be wrapping your lips around a tailpipe by age 35.

Some say end your trip by munching on a few SSR inhibitors (i,e- prozac, citalopram). Methylenedioxy-methylamphetamine (MDMA) enters the serotonin neuron (5-ht) through the serotonin reuptake transporter, causing massive amount of seratonin happiness to flood into an open and willing cell. After you come down, that 5-HT cell is still wide open, and the possibility of a vegetable inducing nuerotoxin entering the cell is alarmingly great. However, if 5-HT reuptake is blocked soon after your trip via an SSRi, the system returns to normal and you save yourself a lot of brain to burn another day.

Of course, repeated SSRi use can lessen the effects of E...I guess it's up to you to decide what's more important.

------------------
whiskey_throttle.mullet@boozin.meth.org

[This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle (edited September 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle (edited September 07, 2000).]

though some of your info differs from what I've read...

- caffeine works by blocking the effect of a specific hormone (cortisol, I think) that makes you feel tired.

- not all drugs that directly affect the brain can be said to alter brain chemistry in a "harmful" way. The amphetamine class of drugs (E, meth, etc.) work by causing neurons that release serotonin to release more serotonin more often, eventually causing the cell to wither and die. This is obviously bad.

Alcohol is toxic, but its "drunk" effect is caused by the fact that is mimics a hormone (GHB, I think) that makes you, well, drunk.

Marijuana and the opiates, on the other hand, act as direct replacements for certain neurotransmitters (endorphin for opiates, anandamide for THC) but don't kill the neurons. In fact, your body will detect the overabundance of these neurotransmitters and grow more nerve endings to receive them. When you stop taking these drugs, the nerve endings will slowly disappear as your brain adjusts to the lower levels of these chemicals.

LSD's method of action is still unknown, and this is largely because it is almost impossible to do research on it. What IS known is that most people can do a ton of it with no noticeable effect on their intelligence (they usually become more creative, though.)

Anyway, one beer will do more brain damage than *most* recreational drugs... X, speed, and coke being noticable exceptions...

straight edge / not straight edge is a lifestyle choice just like any other...and all it means is that you dont like drugs, and has jack shit to do with whether your angry at stuff or not.

Why do people hate drugs? They rule!!!!

This is a RANT! Not a put down to people who don't take drugs.

To each his own right?

I do drugs. Well, I guess you could call it that. Becase I am addicted to drugs:
Paxil
Trazadone
Marijuana
Caffine

Alcohol is indeed a very nasty drug. I steer away from this at all costs, unless I run out of weed.

Smoking a pack a day is even worse. I used to do that shit, but not anymore. HAHA

But the main point, "they [drugs] rule!!!!" is pretty right and valid.
All these anti-drug people are not anti-drug people at all, and their just missing out anyway.

I used to be way against shit like LSD. I was affraid of it, so I preached bad about it.
Then one night I was in a fucked up mood and tried it. It changed my life in such a way! It was what I had been waiting for.

Drugs rule.
Pot fucking rules! It makes me such a mellower person.
more to come...

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsmoov:
I used to be way against shit like LSD. I was affraid of it, so I preached bad about it.
Then one night I was in a fucked up mood and tried it. It changed my life in such a way! It was what I had been waiting for.

---

as far as being "anti-drug" and "missing out" go, i'm not anti-drug. i don't give much of a shit what people do to their own bodies, but it does bother me when they make uninformed declarations like "drugs rule"

i'm not missing out on much of anything. i've got no desire to take lsd, e, cocaine, heroin or pretty much anything else. shit, i don't even take the painkillers prescribed to me because they fuck up my mental clarity.

the thing i've noticed is that those who've posted here have all said something very similar to "anybody who doesn't do drugs isn't living." i live quite well without chemical additives. if that's your pleasure, by all means, go right ahead. far be it for me to deny you what you want to do.

i'm not going to stop you, but i'm not going to stop saying that it's stupid either. if you want people to accept you as you are, and with your drugs, then maybe you ought to learn to accept those who don't do drugs as they are.

quit insisting that our lives aren't as complete as yours because they're not as chemically altered.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

No I didn't actually. How would you prove somthing like that anyway??

If it was a fact that Marijuana "lead to harder drugs" then I'd be dead!
I will never take
Amphetamine's
Cocaine (somtimes I white-cap my weed, but ONLY on special ocasions. It ruins me the next day, so I can only do it on Friday or Saturday nights)
I will NEVER main-line anything. Thats asking for it!

And to further follow THE TOPIC!!! Me and my girlfriend love to smoke weed together. We can do anything after we get high and not be bored. We make music together, have sex, play video games, buy records...

We have taken 'X' or 'E' together a few times and it made us fall in love all over again! Its an amazing drug! Im not into it that much, because of how bad for your brain it is...

We can't wait to take Acid together, its hard to find these days.

We have taken Shroomz together and went to DisneyLand! That was obviously an amazing experience...

Anything you can think of I think would be more fun 'on drugs'. Yes, I admit that. Im proud of that. I can't stand reality. Is that 'sad'? Of 'pathetic'?
You might think so.
But I laugh at society. And I laugh at people that are to Hard-Up to take drugs. Most people don't take drugs because their afraid of them. WUSS!!! Live a little!

Drugs...
Jumping out of an airplane is fun, right?
And it's VERY dangerous at the same time.
Now, I can sit here and pick apart the art of jumping out of high flying airplanes, and I can tell you why I think it's WRONG and how people who do it suck-ass because their just to lazy to have a satisfying life without it. But why would I say that for reall? That would be frikin' rediculous!!!

Drugs are fun! Thats the point of this Topic. If you want to prove that drugs are a product of the 'anti-chist' then go ahead. I will laugh at you! HEHEHEHEHEHEHE

can you imagine jumping out of an airplane ON mushrooms?

wow... that would be the coolest reality ever... assuming you didn't get a bad case of the FEAR.

I'd want the jump instructor to pull the cord though. It might be a real short trip otherwise.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsmoov:
I used to be way against shit like LSD. I was affraid of it, so I preached bad about it.Then one night I was in a fucked up mood and tried it. It changed my life in such a way! It was what I had been waiting for.

---

quote:

---

Then Demonk asked
Did he just prove the theory that softer drugs like weed lead to harder drugs like LSD??

---

No, not really. He just said he tried acid because of a strange inclination. There's no reference to "weed wasn't doing it anymore" or anything like that...

------------------
whiskey_throttle.mullet@boozin.meth.org

Just wait 5 or so years. You'll wake up, just as I did. And look back, and say damn I had fun, but boy was I a dumb mother fucker....

Softer drugs do lead to harder. Unless you quit. I'd tell you to ask my friend Nick, but he decided to eat a face full of buck shot. You can still ask my friend Randy though. He finally quit.

We all used to hang out and smoke weed. Then we got into Acid, I loved that shit. Then they started putting shit up there noses, and nobody would listen would I said it was stupid.

Finally I quit everyting and joined the USMC. I heard they had begun shooting up.

Fucking ridiculous.

You'll all learn the hard way... That's just nature. Nobody wants to be told what to do.

------------------
jim
< Brews and Cues >

• a) drugs make you into a smarter and better you
  i am so much smarter than i was before i started takin drugs (started when i was 14 and now i'm 22). i think up really c00l stuff when i'm high - like the other night when i was on shrooms i thought up a way to make a perpetual motion machine (damn. too bad i forgot to write it down, or i'd be making millions)! anywayz, drugz have also made me alot more mellower and nicer than i was before. so don't tell me to stop taking drugs you fuckheads! u guys can all eat shit n die for trying to take my drugs away from me you fuckers!

• 2) drugs enhance reality:
  reality is soooo boring. life is so much better when you're high. for instance, the other day when i went to this realllly coool rave on an island, i candy-flipped (that's when you do acid and e together). let me tell you: it was the awesomest thing ever! awesome hallucinations and a really great feeling of luv for everyone and everything - i have never felt better in my life. that party was soooo cool (only bad thing at the party was when i almost drowned when i tried to go swimming in the dark). bottom-line: reality w/o drugs = piece of crap. reality w/ drugs = AwEsOmE
  

i've got it all figured out. all you peeps who keep bashin drugs are afraid of living. bunch of scaredy cats! did you forget your little blankie at home? boohoo for you.

listen, if you keep livin life like you want the fun to happen to you it's not gonna happen! the only way things are going to happen is if you take responsibility and bring the fun to yourself. that's the only way things are gonna improve! me damien and dsmoov, we know how to have a good time. we're living life. you're not. better smarten up and change your stupid ways or your gonna be bitter and unhappy later in life because you've never had a moment of fun.

The vast majority of drug users aren't like that.

Here are some quick facts that most responsible drug users will agree with:

weed - almost harmless. By and large the benefits (immense relaxation and enjoyment) outweigh the risks.

hallucinogens - You see cool shit, you usually feel absolutely incredible. Not addictive. If you take acid too often you don't trip, you just feel wired and cramped the whole time, which sucks.

speed - this drug is crap. I took 20mg of Dexedrine (dextroamphetamine) one day on a lark. For about 20 minutes I felt *really* good. Then I spent the next 8 hours feeling bored, antsy, & irritable. I kept wishing I'd taken acid, because at least that way I'd see cool shit while I was feeling antsy. It is worth noting that the drug culture at large *hates* speed freaks.

cocaine - this drug is also shit. I snorted a nice, fat line once... for 15 minutes I was hyper, but I also felt like I had the biggest Novacaine shot ever. Then I came down. Cocaine is boring and mostly a glamour drug.

crack - Crackheads are lower than speed freaks. Enough said.

opiates (codeine, morphine, opium, heroin) - opiates are cool if you're bright enough to remember that they are addictive, kicking the addiction sucks total and complete ass, and sticking a needle in your arm hurts. Smoking a bowl of opium occassionally is cool. Shooting black tar into your veins is stupid.

alcohol - alcohol is a shitty drug. If you want to relax, Valium or even Benadryl is better. But some alcohol concoctions are pretty tasty (White Russian... mmm...)

The point here is that drugs can be used responsibly or irresponsibly. Responsible use is studying them, learning the effects, deciding what to take, when to take it, and in what quantity. A lot of users talk about "respecting the drug," and what they mean is to always remember that some drugs can kick your ass. Nobody is invincible. So if you're unsure if you can handle that tab of acid or that line of speed or that syringe of smack, you probably shouldn't try.

Unfortunately some people discover drugs and conclude that they are an easy way out, and they don't really care if they kill their brain or their soul. These people will use anything that works, and drugs are one way to do it. But so is gambling, fast driving, womanizing, boozing, you name it. If it's quick and easy fun, they'll do it, and they'll do it until they're either dead or have the stunning revelation that life isn't always easy.

These people give drugs a bad name. But very few people that do drugs wind up becoming junkies, just like very few people that drop a quarter into a slot machine become gambling addicts.

dsmoov, sithee, follower... we are into "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." A lot of people obviously think we don't have that right. So remember to shout this from the rooftops :

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO DRUGS!!!

And we'll defend that right whenever we have to!

quote:

---

And it is also a fact that many people start out with the softer, "safe" drugs, but soon want more and more of a high, and start taking harder and harder drugs.

---

A fact? Perhaps it's a fact that ppl that take hard drugs started with softer drugs, but I'll have to diagree with that statment in general.

I still don't know if drugs are actually good though. Generally they don't do anything highly benificial, unless used as a form of medicine.

quote:

---

The amphetamine class of drugs (E, meth, etc.) work by causing neurons that release serotonin to release more serotonin more often, eventually causing the cell to wither and die. This is obviously bad

---

But whatever - to each his own.

[This message has been edited by Happyfish (edited September 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by DuSTman (edited September 08, 2000).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bozeman:
Perpetual motion machine?

---

I had an idea about that once, Some university found a certain setup involving a supercooled ceramic ring spinning very fast decreased the effect of gravity above it by 2\%.

I was thinking that a disc could be placed vertically, half in and half out of the reduced gravity bit - this would cause the disc to start spinning as the downward force on one side would be greater than the other side.. The thing was that the negative gravitational effect goes up all the way, so you could pile these discs until their motion, when driving a generator, would be enough to sustain the anti-grav device.

As for the whole drug thing, anyone who thinks that its cool to take drugs and get highs, or that if you don't take drugs you don't have fun, or that drugs make you a smarter person, is seriously fucked in the head. The only way that taking drugs can make you smarter is if you learn the hard way that taking drugs is stupid, and stop taking them: you'd definitely be smarter than you were while you were taking them. However, there's a good chance you'll be dumber than you'd be if you had never taken them in the first place.

Go ahead! Fuck yourselves up with that shit! Ruin your lives! Waste your money! Who am I to stop you? But don't ask me to believe for one second that you are better off for taking drugs than I am for not taking drugs.

Case and point: if drugs make you more intelligent, you should have the capacity to use appropriate grammar, and pontificate without the use of vulgar vernacular in your otherwise inane diatribes.

quote:

---

damien_s_lucifer said:

can you imagine jumping out of an airplane ON mushrooms?

---

i skydive. i wouldn't do it high, even if i could find a pilot crazy enough to take me up in that conditon. at 13k feet in the air, you've got less than a minute to get into position, pull the rip cord, check your canopy, and prepare for landing. jumping high would be suicide.

i suggest trying it without the mushrooms first. it's a thrilling enough experience without adding to it the lack of presence of mind that says "pull the rip cord."

quote:

---

follower said:

i am so much smarter than i was before i started takin drugs (started when i was 14 and now i'm 22). <bits left out by kuru>.......... when i almost drowned when i tried to go swimming in the dark)

---

you've heard of the darwin awards right?
hey, wow, i'm so smart that i'm going to fill my blood with chemicals that make me unable to control my body, and then jump into a lake.

that's < http://www.darwinawards.com > so your friends can read about you later.

quote:

---

hellraiser said:

Energy is conserved. Therefore, in order to get a perpetual motion machine you would need to have a perpetual source

---

momentum is also conserved. if you built a pendulum, in a vaccuum that swung on a magnetic hinge (no friction), pulled it back once, and let it go.....in theory it would run forever. there's one in a science museum in pittsburgh that's so well tuned it only has to be restarted once every 3 years. you wouldn't necessarily have to supply the power source, gravity works quite well.

oh yeah, and i wasn't on drugs when i thought that up.

quote:

---

damien_s_lucifer wrote:

dsmoov, sithee, follower... we are into "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." A lot of people obviously think we don't have that right. So remember to shout this from the rooftops :

---

"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is all well and good, but what you guys have forgotten is that people aren't miserable simply because they don't live the way you do. there's been a lot of talk from you, follower, and dsmoov decrying those who enjoy their lives without drugs. gotta wonder why. if you really were into "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" it wouldn't be so important to you that there are people who choose not to do drugs. maybe you've got some kind of issues because you feel you have to take drugs to make life worth living, and those of us who don't take drugs just automatically enjoy life. maybe you have to put down the drug free people because it's the only way you can justify your dependencies, and by the way, taking drugs because you just can't tolerate life without them.... there's a word for that. the word is "addiction"

if you can't handle life without the drugs, which you have all stated time and again, it means you're dependent on them. addicted to them.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Follower, whose name I need not comment on.

drugz rule!!!i'm gonna tell you why drugs are the best:

---

Okay, wer're all ears.

quote:

---

a) drugs make you into a smarter and better you

---

Enough said.

quote:

---

i am so much smarter than i was before i started takin drugs (started when i was 14)...on shrooms i thought up a way to make a perpetual motion machine

---

No way! The other day I drank a quart of hairspray and sniffed some glue and saw Hendrix in my cereal, man! He told me how to make a perpetual motion machine! But dude, I forgot.

quote:

---

anywayz, drugz have also made me alot more mellower...i almost drowned when i tried to go swimming in the dark

---

Remind me: what were you saying about getting smarter?

I've had enough.

[This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle (edited September 08, 2000).]

My glass is half-full!! Damn-it!

You sober-heads are being pecimistic to say the least...

the difference between skydiving and drugs is that i can still have a completely productive and intelligent life, and skydive on the weekends. the effects of drugs don't just disappear at 8 am on monday.

as for my glass, i'm an engineer. i'm glad i put half of my water in a redundant glass.

if i die skydiving, at least it'll be quick, and while i was doin something i love.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

I don't see anything wrong in recreational use. Though I don't want to stray onto a tangent, I'm one of those folks that does not see the logic in criminalizing marijuana but tolerating alcohol.

Nevertheless, there is a word to describe the lot of you that are consistently attacking the sober folks: HYPOCRITE!

First you rant about how the status quo does not accept your drug use as a normal, legitimate act. You give off brash recriminations to those that oppose narcotics. Then you come along and claim that anyone who is not doing drugs is substandard! What the hell is this? First you advocate liberty and autonomy, then you argue forced conformity and exclusion!

Take a lesson from John Stuart Mill, a founder of liberty and of this country: It is wrong to influence laws and/or people through your own value judgments. In other words, just because you carry a certain belief doesn't mean the next person should! It is amoral for a person to conduct just as it is a malfeasance when committed by the government.

------------------
whiskey_throttle.mullet@boozin.meth.org

Ooh. That was a low post man. I am very intelligent. And I live productivly. I work 40+ hours a week. And I live in Kalifornia. Do you any idea how expensive it is to live out here?
Half of the money I make goes to my RENT and BILLS. More of it goes into my gas tank so I can get to work everyday(60 miles a day). Then I have to feed myself, my pet Parot, all my friends who come over and eat my food. Internet charge, car insurence, girlfriend, credit-card balance, parts for my computer, blablablablabla.
I sleep like 6hours a day because when Im not working at work, Im working at home on my beloved music. When Im not making electronic music Im taking photographs of many subjects.
Don't go on saying Im not intelligent, or Im lazy. You have no idea.
Buying pot IS NOT my main priority, its a high one, but I need a place to smoke it, right?
I quit smoking ciggarets because I can't afford it. I picked weed of them without a second thought.
AND YES, DRUG USE AND DRUG ABUSE ARE VERY DIFFERENT!

Oh, and I don't remember attacking anyone anti-drug. I may feel bad for the sober, but Im not angry at them.

i don't have a problem with people doin drugs as long as they're not sponging off of society. so hey man, more power to ya. but don't feel sorry for sober people. i'm sober cause i like to be.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

[This message has been edited by hair (edited September 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by hair (edited September 08, 2000).]

and drugs are not always fun. Get high when you're bored and have nothing to do, and you'll still be bored. You'll just be stoned as well.

But they can make an otherwise fun experience better... going to Disneyland is a good example. I've been there both sober and on mushrooms. It was fun when I was sober. It was absolutely fantastic on mushrooms. Space Mountain gave me a brain orgasm

I wouldn't parachute by myself on 'shrooms. Around here, anyway, you get tied up to an instructor for your first jump, and your INSTRUCTOR pulls the cord. You don't have to do anything other than not freak out. I'd do that on 'shrooms. On the other hand I wouldn't go swimming, or anything else where body control is vital... I tried swimming once on acid. That is a BAD idea. I had to keep reminding myself "this is water, you can't breathe this, even though it seems like you can... don't try or you'll drown... what is death? Is it cool? Um, I think I better get out."

quote:

---

dsmoov said:

I laugh at the people who get offended so easily by the fact that a lot of people enjoy recreational drug use. Get over it.

---

eh? i'm not offended by the fact that other people choose to use drugs. i'm annoyed with the fact that they seem to think the only way to have really good fun is to be high.

quote:

---

damien_s_lucifer said:

Around here, anyway, you get tied up to an instructor for your first jump, and your INSTRUCTOR pulls the cord.

---

i did the tandem jump thing, and on the multitude of legal forms i had to sign, i had to swear that i was not under the influence of drugs or alcohol. it's illegal for them to let you do a jump, even a tandem, if you're intoxicated or high. skydiving's dangerous enough, and they're not gonna let you increase the risk that you and the instructor both die.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

C'mon people, Iv'e heard all this crap befor. WE DON'T NEED TO TAKE DRUGS IN ORDER TO HAVE A GOOD TIME. We just have an even BETTER time when we happen to have a bag of weed with us.
That simple.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
that statement came from personal experience of having worked with people who did drugs. for a while they were fine, and then the effects started building up and their performance slipped. maybe it doesn't apply to YOU specificially, but it does to a fairly large group of drug users.

---

I'll agree that a fairly large group of drug users do experience a slip in "performance," because drugs make you view the world differently. But that doesn't necessarily mean a drop in IQ; it means their priorities have shifted.

Personally, I always despised the politics of corporate culture, but I played along with them because I felt that's what I had to do. Taking LSD & mushrooms made me realize how much I hate compromising my own values just to climb the corporate ladder. I despise hypocrisy, lying, backstabbing, etc. The job I had at the time required a lot of b.s.ing if you wanted to get promoted. I realized my life was too short to waste on that, so I started looking for a different job. I eventually wound up at my current job, where people get promoted according to ability instead of whose ass you kiss.

Once I realized that I hated my old job, my performance definately "slipped," because I no longer had any interest in it. But I was still taking drugs when I got my new job, and I was working harder than ever before, becuase I enjoyed what I was doing.

LSD/shrooms also made me realize that there were other things in life I should be doing besides just working and playing video games. I took up writing and photography. Drugs made me more creative, and therefore more productive.

And yes, there are some people who get into the wrong drugs, for the wrong reasons, and those are the ones that collapse.

As for the perpetual motion machine... come on, man, that's being really gullible... on acid your imagination becomes very powerful, but that doesn't mean everything you imagine is true or even possible. I mean, I thought I was God. I remembered creating the Universe. It made so much sense at the time that I felt like I had found the thing I'd always felt like I was missing. But that doesn't mean that it was true... just wishful thinking made manifest by the drug.

The secret to letting acid help you instead of turning you into the village idiot is this : DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING ACID TELLS YOU.

I don't want to sound like a bastard or know it all here, I'm just sharing what I know. I agree with full heartedly on your stance about taking drugs. But I would however say that certain drugs may not make your mind more creative, but would make your mind more open, and acceptive to new things. I'm not saying all drugs will do this, there is actually only a few, and out of those few, maybe one or two that I would personally even consider taking. Drugs are too like alcohol, I go to college and live in town, so I run into more drunk bastards than i can count, on a regular basis too. Hell I was out last night, but whole point is, if you do anything, whether it be drugs, alcohol, smoke, etc. DO it in Moderation, and will be good.

you're probably right that some drugs do open people's minds. i'm not saying that they don't, it's just that i know my own mind and i'm under the impression that adding drugs to the mix would only make the screaming worse. i can barely deal with how much flashes through my head, so i try not to add much more to it. i do drink alcohol and smoke weed sometimes, which i've admitted to already, but it seems i'll do that because i've found that those two things let my brain rest.

if it's workin for someone else, that's cool n stuff. i've got nothin against those who intelligently use drugs. those who abuse drugs, i have problems with.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

[This message has been edited by kuru (edited September 10, 2000).]

Good analysis....one thing I didn't mention is that, people must have the desire to open their mind. The drug just aids in the process. I know people that took the same drug and had totally different responses to it....so yeah....drugs should be dealt with on a person to person case..

Avalanche

i've never been able to understand how drugs increase mental ability and creativity, mostly because my mind is constantly churning and i am creative as hell. i've been a poet and a painter since i was very young, i've probably accomplished way too much in my creative endeavours, and academia has always come too easily for me. i just can't comprehend anything that would make my mind work harder and more than it already is....and if i ever did find that thing, i'd definately be very afraid to touch it.

my processor's already overclocked, i don't want it to melt down.

this is why i personally choose for myself not to do drugs beyond drink alcohol and smoke weed occasionally. anybody else who wants to do drugs, go for it. i hope only that you've all made informed decisions with all the risks in mind, and it that it never prevents you from taking care of yourself and surviving.

i have no hard feelings to those who take drugs, i've just figured that the right decision for me is to abstain.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

I have never smoked, never done drugs, and I don't plan on ever doing any for the simple reason that I want to be myself, not what drugs make me.

quote:

---

Kuru wrote:
i've never been able to understand how drugs increase mental ability and creativity...

---

I don't think any drug has the capability of actually increasing one's intelligence. Anyone who posits that their erudition is due to some narcotic is full of shit.

However, some drugs help you think in different ways, usually with positive results. The most notable of these are psylocibin/cubensis (mushroom), lysergic acid, and THC (marijuana). Though these drugs all affect the brain in different ways, they all seem to induce a trance-like state in which deeper thinking is kick-started and perpetuated.

Don't get me wrong: dropping 3 tabs of acid won't help your brain trigger the answers to your calculus homework, and a joint won't help your score on the LSAT. But these drugs do carry the potential (when used correctly) to help your already existing, right-brain creativity flow. It's very hard to explain, but hallucinogens allow the user to think in a different way than is normally done.

Experimental or recreational use will not change who you are...it just opens up a new window for a fresh perspective on life.

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Experimental or recreational use will not change who you are...it just opens up a new window for a fresh perspective on life.

---

When I first did mushrooms i wouldn't go as far to say it changed who I was, but it definatly felt like everything my life was waiting for. It was so much bigger then how small everything about the world was. It made me realize how dumb and childish the important things in my life at that time were.

But the last time I did mushrooms everything was wrong. I can't describe the hours of what can't be imagined sober. What felt like days of hell in mere hours. Since then i can't shake the odd feeling of complex lonelyness that hits me for no reason at odd hours. Many things now trouble me which shouldn't. I always thought depression was a stupid joke, but this feeling I always bear is bad, it comes in waves. I keep thinking time will fix it, but its been over a year now...

I took acid last Friday night. Geez, I forgot how intense it can be. It was very cool. The shit I thought up was so amazing. I realized the Universe. Blablabla.

You have to do it to beleive it.

And YES, it is a bad idea to drop acid or shoomz if your unhappy. If you have shit to worry about, you will. But if your strong minded, you just laugh at it. You understand your on drugs.

------------------
But where is < Gamera >?

Unless you want to get nothing accomplished in a flame war, call people names.

It just goes to show that your a WUSS!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by dsmoov:
OK, are we going to resort to name calling now?

Unless you want to get nothing accomplished in a flame war, call people names.

It just goes to show that your a WUSS!!

---

Call me a wuss if you like, because I speak my mind. And what I was thinking right then was: "Jesus Christ, everyone who talks about doing acid sounds like a retard."

------------------
But where is < Gamera >?

dumbass.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Happyfish:
Certian ppl should not do acid. You have to have the right frame of mind. You have to be able to tell yourself it's just the drug when things get too wierd. Some ppl lose it and end up scaring the shit out of themselves (bad trip).(I'd almost go as far as to say stupid ppl shouldn't do acid.)
Hell, I guess this applies to almost any drug. Acid more so though.

---

You seem to be saying "Some people are strong enough to resist the drugs. Some people are smart enough to out-think them." This is a very dangerous thing to believe. You are not immortal; if you are playing with fire, you should not have the arrogance and naivete to assume that you cannot be burnt. There is always the risk that you will overdose or do something stupid while under the influence of whatever drug you are taking.

However, the possibility of killing yourself by using a drug are not the thing that makes drugs dangerous. The real danger of drugs comes from addiction. When you get pleasure from dugs rather than from any non-chemical source, you are decreasing your brain's natural ability to produce those chemicals. Thus, after repeated use, drugs are the only source of pleasure left to you.

I have never used any sort of drugs. I do not smoke, and I do not drink in excess. But the reason for this isn't because I see drugs and alchohol as evil or because of any holier-than-thou attitude. Nor do I abstain from using drugs just because I'm afraid that they will mess up my mind and my body. The reason that I have never used drugs or alchohol is that I feel no need to. My life is enjoyable for me even in a non-enhanced state of conscousness. And I have no need to take hallucinogens to convince myself that the world is different than it is or that I am part of some "cosmic oneness" or whatever for the simple reason that I am already part of a community and a supportive group of friends.

Some people seem to feel a gap in their lives that they believe only drugs can fill. But drugs cannot permanently fill that void. Even when they make you feel that the world is better and more interesting than it is, you are really just the same person, living in that same world, tricking yourself into thinking that things are different. Drugs can do nothing to improve your life; they only let you escape from it.

Of course, everyone needs to escape from life occasionally. Myself, I simply start up some computer game and start blowing things up, or go jogging outside.

If I haven't gotten all my facts straight about drugs, it's probably because I slept through most of those "drug abuse" classes in school. Classes which, by the way, are a lot more likely to increase experimentation with drugs than to convince kids to avoid them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
everyone that does acid sounds like a retard because they are SEVERAL LEVELS ABOVE YOU.

dumbass.

---

"Well, I only sound dumb to YOU because I'm SMARTER THAN YOU, and you just can't GET what I'm talking about!"

It didn't work in first grade, it won't work now.

Drugs don't make you wiser. They make you think you're wiser.

They don't open up some mystical gateway of knowledge, they fuck with your brain. Tripping != ANYTHING to do with reality.

In short:

SHUTS UP FAG0T!!!!!1!11!

And I didn't even have a problem with drugs until I started talking to the idiots who use them....*Sigh*...

------------------
But where is < Gamera >?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Happyfish:
So if everyone needs to 'escape from life occasionally', then everyone should do drugs occasionally? Drugs = 'let you escape from it[life]"

---

What I was saying is that it's perfectly fine to need to "escape" from life occasionally, but that there are other ways to do this than drugs, ways which are more healthy and less risky to yourself. You aren't doing yourself much good if the method that you use to escape from your problems ends up giving you even more problems to deal with.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael:
Drugs can do nothing to improve your life; they only let you escape from it....

---

Is escaping and a good or bad thing?IRHO?

quote:

---

Of course, everyone needs to escape from life occasionally. I simply start up some computer game and start blowing things up...

---

So if everyone needs to 'escape from life occasionally', then everyone should do drugs occasionally? Drugs = 'let you escape from it[life]"

(Does this make sense?? )

[This message has been edited by Happyfish (edited September 17, 2000).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozymandias:
Tripping != ANYTHING to do with reality.

In Short:

SHUTS UP FAG0T!!!!!1!11!

---

: :

So there :P

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by darksol:
It shows you how creative your brain can get while tripp'n on some kind of drug or another.

---

obviously you've never taken LSD. When things move, change colors, etc. it looks ABSOLUTELY REAL... and you realize your brain is ALWAYS processing shit, telling you "that is a chair, that is a TV, that is the floor, that is blue..."

You can know your brain does that, but seeing it in action is very different. It drives home the point that every-day "reality" is 99\% illusion. That's what is meant when people say it "opens the doors of perception."

i don't rely on chemicals to make me think, i do plenty of that on my own

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

sometimes when i get high i see tracers, makes me wonder if i really ever quit trippin

Right now, I have pretty good control over what I see, feel, and think. I can walk, drive, and comprehend what I read and hear.

Now, as soon as I get wasted on something, I lose control. My emotions and comprehension are no longer my own, I cannot control the speed of my reflexes, I cannot get a handle on my emotions, and I can no longer trust what I see and feel. I am no longer independant, but a slave to all the artificial sensations and emotions that the drug causes. And guess what? There's no off switch. Not only can I not control what happens to me, I can not control how long I am in this condition.

I expect to be called a wuss, lam0r, and a dozen other pathetic and worthless names by sheep who desparately want to justify their habits. So what? The fact is, I'm not going to hand over control over my body without a very very good reason, and "because it's cool" is not a good enough reason. Neither is "because it makes you more creative", because it doesn't. You want creativity? Take a philosophy class. Take an art class. Read a freakin' BOOK. That acid trip that "opened up" all those doors is a hoax--you shorted your brain out and tried to derive meaning from it.

Okay, now I'm rambling. Recap: I hate to lose control of my body and my perceptions, therefore I'm not gonna do it.

Now, if I can only find those pennies.....

------------------
--Jynx

"If it's not one thing, it's two."

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

ROTFLPMP you have a lot to learn, buddy...

This is not to say that I think psylocibin or acid opens up the gatewate to some sort of intellectual nirvana. That, as Dr. H. Thompson pointed out, was the ill-conceived notion of Tim Leary's experiments with LSD. He had his followers believing they could buy peace and understanding for ū bucks a hit. They believed it because it was a time wherein people were desperate to find freedom in light of foriegn and domestic conflicts. Today we're more enlightened, and the real reasons behind drugs can be seen more objectively. (BTW, I should preface I've never done acid, nor ever will).

Hallucinogens can't make you smarter or more logical. No drug can. (unless there's something brewing in the Pentagon...) But mescaline, cubensis, and the like can help a willing user down the road. In other words, if the drug is used (not abused ) with a willing participant in a planned and prepared scenario, the results can be beneficial and interesting.

I don't need drugs to do anything, which I think is an important distinction to make between myself and addicts. In fact, I haven't done anything in quite some time. Yet, some of my most critically acclaimed artwork was influenced and based on things I thought up while under the influence of some hallucinatory drugs...be it writing (a surrealistic social commentary led to a permanant staff position at a Los Angeles magazine) or music (I compose best with a little green...it gets me really into it.)

Again, hallucinatory drugs are not healthy, and they definitely don't raise your IQ. But the natural ones (cannibis, peyote, mushroom) are not really bad for you, when used in moderation. They can get you in a real spiritual state, almost a nirvana, in which you can openly come to terms with friends, life, philosophies, etc. Ectasy (outside of the recreational scene) has been documented to reinvent relationships in troubled couples, allow honest and heartfelt dialogue between people, and renew and magnify the power of personal love/sex.

To the extent of my experience, 95\% of people who try a psychedlic drug alter their outlook on life following the trip (examples include being personally free, dealing with skeletons in the closet, realizing life is too short to not investigate your curiosities, coming to philisophical conclusions one did not concieve earlier.) Take from this what you will. Remember, I am not advocating drug use, nor telling anyone they should try it...not for a legal reason, but for a moral one. Everyone's different, and different stimuli affect different people in different ways. There truly is no universal "norm" in this respect. Okay, I'm rambling...

not all crutches are bad, but over-reliance on a crutch that a person doesn't need isn't usually a good thing. i've dealt with some pretty harsh circumstances in my life, and a couple times, tried to use a drug (alcohol) to do it. it doesn't work. the drug wears off and the problem is still there.

i don't hide from my demons and skeletons, i face them. head on, with no extra chemicals interfering... anybody who tells you that it's not possible to deal with skeletons in the closet unless you're stoned, drunk or tripping is either a fool, a liar, or both. it takes guts to rip the closet door wide open and dig the bodies out without something to hold on to, but it can be done.

i've been there, and i like it that i know that my thoughts and actions were mine alone, and not some chemical.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
To the extent of my experience, 95\% of people who try a psychedlic drug alter their outlook on life following the trip

---

You could say the same about people who have fought in a war, or had a close friend / relative die, or any of a dozen different experiences which definately are not positive. The only difference with drugs is that for a lot of people, they only use them when their lives couldn't possibly get any worse, and thus they believe that the drugs have improved their lives when in fact they were just in a situation so bad that hey needed anything they could get to channge their life. Furthermore, if a drug only makes your life better when you're on it, your real problem and your real life have not improved any.

don't do drugs to escape life.
acid is not/cannot be a crutch, it is to unstable and chaotic to be used to "save" you from your problems. it is for fun only, if your down and out and you take a hit of acid your gonna trip out bad.

kuru, good for you and your skeletons, alcohol would have been one of my last choices, i would have smoked a fatty and sat there and thought about what was buggin me then the next day/however long it took (while not high) i would have made my decision. it was maybe use as a crutch but i still waited till i was "sober" to make the final decision, unless (for me) it was a social situation, in which i would have done nothing and would still continue to think about it till this day. drugs or no drugs!
i have social anxitiy and it sux! of course noone else knows this they think i'm just quiet/i don't let them think differently either (this isn't the point of this post damnit!!)

lets show people how to do drugs.
if they are gonna do them then they should know how to do it without killing their stupid asses, instead of shuning and refusing to accept the fact that people use drugs, we should research and inform those that choose to do them!

i'm done

Q: Why do we go on vacation?

A: To escape our respective realities. We leave the banality of work, the redundant drudgery of society, the constant environment, and escape to new and interesting places for the sole purpose of enjoying life.

Drugs are cheaper than most vacations, and some can be pretty darn fun (of course, when used in moderation.) I pity the person that is too afraid of the limits to their own willpower to not be able to experiment with drugs (not neccissarily the synthetic ones, but mainly the natural ones like weed) and make an objective, supported conlcusion of their worth. It seems that several people on this board say something like, "I am happy the way I am, I don't need any substance to help me along." I think the people who cop this attitude have a far weaker argument than those who say, "I tried it and didn't like it."

How do you know you won't like it if you've never tried it? Obviously, the same rationale wouldn't apply to ingesting cyanide or jumping off a cliff, but weed isn't exactly going to kill you.

The point is that while drugs are a crutch, so is everything in life...from TV to religion to computers to vacations. To distance yourself from something that is possibly enjoyable merely because
a) it has a social stigma of being evil, or b) because you are afraid of getting too attached,
is a sign of weakness.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 26, 2000 at 12:51 PM

[ RANT ]
but can we drug users PLEASE stop the whole chemical vs. natural thing?

THC is a chemical. Psilocybin is a chemical. They both occur naturally.

What you mean is SYNTHETIC vs. natural.

[ /RANT ]

both are well said!

and i'm going on lunch

alcohol significantly alters brain chemistry.

but it's legal, so I guess it's safer than illegal drugs. After all, the GOVERNMENT is never wrong

Whisky, good analogy. However, I don't know if I personally would want to vacation that way:

--If I have a bad vacation, I can cut it short. Try cutting short a bad trip.

--You can't OD on camping. You can get tired of it, but you can't OD on it.

--You won't become physically dependant on Disneyland if you stay there too long.

'Kay, just for reference, I don't think drugs are evil, I think that the action of taking them is foolish.

I do not have an issue with someone taking drugs.

I do have an issue with someone taking drugs and then hurting/killing someone else under the influence. Alcohol and PCP are prime examples, and anyone who drives while high on something is a disaster waiting to happen.

My major reason for not taking drugs is because of the health risks involved. I'm not talking about immediate, I'm talking cumulative brain damage (what do you think flashbacks are?) and cancer, to name two.

BTW, damien? I am not under the control of my sensations, but I am under the control of my reaction to them. I am likewise under control of my actions in relation to my emotions. When I take anything that alters my brain, I give up some or all of that control, and that is what I don't like.

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--Jynx

"If it's not one thing, it's two."

Here's my reply:

quote:

---

You said
You can't OD on camping. You can get tired of it, but you can't OD on it.

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And you can't OD on marijuana, either. Remember, I'm not advocating synthetic drugs like crack, heroin, PCP, and the like. I'm advocating cannabis and the occasional psylocibin/cubensis adventure. I'm advocating things that, unlike synthetic drugs, processed tobacco, and alcohol, can be picked right out of nature and enjoyed.

quote:

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If I have a bad vacation, I can cut it short. Try cutting short a bad trip.

---

I've never heard of a bad marijuana trip, but even if it did exist, I doubt it would last that long. The total effects of marijuana only stick around for about 3-4 hours. As for psylocibin...well, you got me there. I guess one just has to be careful with that stuff. But heck, native Americans have been ritualistically using such drugs long before the US came to be...the native people of this land have a very intelligent command over the use of nature's psychedelics, which some use in traditional ceremony. It seems to me that they don't have a problem with bad trips. A native American friend of mine once told me, "When you are pure, so will be your journey."

quote:

---

You won't become physically dependent on Disneyland if you stay there too long.

---

It all comes down to willpower, man. If someone is too ignorant to identify the limits of their will, or is too foolish to come to terms with the fact that a dependency is forming, then they are truly weak. I'm not saying that I'm flawless...but I've never had a problem with saying "no" to a drug. Period. I think all substance users (whether it's Advil or bourbon or crack) should know their limits.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 26, 2000 at 06:17 PM

As for the camping analogy, camping has certain dangers of its own. Lyme disease is one of many examples.

As far as flashbacks go, well, I can't say I've ever had one, nor has anyone I know. When you remember things that happened while you were tripping, you might start to feel a little trippy. Then again, when you remember something that happened when you were drunk, you might feel a little drunk. And if you remember being sick, you might feel a little sick.

Brain damage? Or just the way memory works? You decide.

And for some of us, giving up some control is PRECISELY what taking drugs is all about. You know, those of us who aren't control freaks.

Beer = Legal
Shit you are talking about = Unregulated and VERY illegal.

If you have read through this whole thread you'll know that I used the hell out of drugs when I was in high school.

It wasn't the fact that whiskey takes drugs, although that is a part of it, it was the whole post I read by him.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

---

Originally posted by jim:
I don't have to add any more aguements to this thread. It has become ridiculous.

Beer = Legal
Shit you are talking about = Unregulated and VERY illegal.

It wasn't the fact that whiskey takes drugs, although that is a part of it, it was the whole post I read by him.

---

Though I still don't know why you're attacking my post, let me say that I'm beginning to question your intelligence.

Is legality the only thing holding you back from doing things, be it drugs or murder?

Come on, Jim...tell me you realize that legality is merely the subjective tyranny of the majority! What if I told you I was writing from Amsterdam, where cannabis is 100\% legal and loved? Your whole argument would be ripped to shreds.

To justify your beer usage by highlighting it's legality is pretty pathetic. Lot's of dangerous things are legal (such as the caner-causing horror, MTBE, which is found in gasoline)...this category also includes alcohol.

If you want to debate this point, the let's debate it. Don't run away with your tail between your legs because you read something you don't like. I posit that cannabis, despite its illegality, is far safer than alcohol, which you seem to favor. I'd like to hear what you think about this.

p.s. - I edited (and added a whole lot) to my last post, just to clarify my earlier analogy. You may find it informative.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 26, 2000 at 06:32 PM

But risking my cush job over a drug that I can't use in public legally is just fucking stupid.

I'll be the first to admit I love drinking beer. I don't sit at home and just drink to 'escape' reality.

I go out to the bar, socialize, drink beer, have a good time. No harm, no foul.

Now if I would have smoked a joint or 2 last weekend, I would have just cost myself my job. (I took a surprise piss test, yesterday)

Now I don't know/or care how much money you make a year, but I fucking make a lot by anyone's standards. And I'm not prepared to have to just up and start looking for another job, and when my potential employer asks if he can contact my previous employer, and I have to NO!

I don't think so, man. It's not fucking worth it.

And I sit around here and read these posts, and it makes me sick. "Ooooooo, weed is so great, it makes you smarter... blah, blah, blah.... Beer/Alcohol is so bad, you puke and stuff"

Well I've smoked weed. A LOT of weed. And it's not all pretty either. You get the spins, the munchies, you loose the desire to do anything.... Peyote: you puke your guts up. Acid: just kills your back the next day. Heroin: Do I really even need to list anything?

No please no selective fucking reading.

Weed = Bad
Beer = Bad
Weed = illegal
Beer = legal

This is why I drink beer, and don't smoke pot.

This whole, this drug is good for you, this drug is bad for you crap is idiotic.

THEY ARE ALL BAD FOR YOU! THEY ALL MAKE YOU DO STUPID SHIT!

It comes down to legal and illegal. PERIOD

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

------------------
But where is < Gamera >?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozymandias:
< Massive LSD Flashback >.

---

"It's a massive LSD flashback. I'm afraid Ashley won't make it. I'm sorry."

ROTFLPMP!!! Uh, yeah, I know LOTS of people who have died from LSD flashbacks!

BWAH HAHAHAHAHAH hee hee hee....

Damn, sounds like fun! Where do I sign up?

------------------
Presented in double vision when drunk.

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
And you can't OD on marijuana, either. Remember, I'm not advocating synthetic drugs like crack, heroin, PCP, and the like. I'm advocating cannabis and the occasional psylocibin/cubensis adventure. I'm advocating things that, unlike synthetic drugs, processed tobacco, and alcohol, can be picked right out of nature and enjoyed.

---

It's far easier to OD on beer than it is to OD on heroin. Pharmaceutical-grade heroin is safer than just about everything legal up to caffeine, and with extremely milder withdrawal symptoms. You don't OD on the heroin, you OD on the rat poison it's cut with to make the drug dealers more money. Granted, this only applies if you can get the pure stuff, usually from a rehab clinic, but it's a point to keep in mind that (governmental) regulations and quality controls would make this, at least, a safer if even less appealing addiction.

quote:

---

It's far easier to OD on beer than it is to OD on heroin.

---

You see what crack does to you people?!?!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

---

Originally posted by jim:
You see what crack does to you people?!?!

---

Why do you see so many stories of fraternity members dying of binge drinking? Sure, it's their own fault for not watching themselves, but it's alcohol poisoning that kills them, and not a distended bladder.

Keep in mind that rehab clinics do often give heroin addicts heroin while trying to get them off it. Giving them clean stuff is countless times safer than letting them get what they can off the street. You never know where that's been.

I don't recall saying that any drug is healthy, or "good for you."

I don't recall saying that risking one's job or freedom is worth the fleeting pleasure of a drug.

I don't recall saying I partake in any synthetic drug.

I am only trying to say that certain drugs aren't as bad as some people think they are. Several other things run rampant in society that are just as bad, if not worse. There seems to be a holier-than-thou vibe running with the people that have legal or socially benign habits. I'm willing to bet this is due to our invasive media, which can't keep its grubby little paws from multiplying the severity of kitschy issues like, "pot- the herbal satan."

The only reason marijuana is illegal in this country is because of a media influence that sparked ancient, bigoted legislation such as the Harrison Act (I believe that was in 1914). Did you know that a compelling reason towards the prohibition of marijuana was, "it makes black men rape white women?"
Add the whole cotton vs. hemp (and/or tobacco vs. cannabis) fight in there and you've got yourself some fucked up legislation.

quote:

---

Jim said:
I'll be the first to admit I love drinking beer. I don't sit at home and just drink to 'escape' reality.
I go out to the bar, socialize, drink beer, have a good time.

---

Um, then it is an escape. Technically, you are going out to do something your daily grind does not offer. I highly doubt you are thinking of your job, your bills, or your problems when you're out at the bar. Therefore, you are taking a temporary retreat to enjoy the things you love most.

When I said "escape," I didn't mean to imply, "get high and run away from your problems." I was trying to say that I prefer the occaisional joint and a good book/movie...my way of relaxing and taking my mind of work, bills, etc. Sure, those things are going to be there when I am through...but I know that to begin with. I'm not running away from anything. I'm just having fun.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 26, 2000 at 11:40 PM

I thought you were quite intelligent until reading your last post.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Jim - Hey man, don't think less of me because I enjoy something you don't. I see from your sig that you're a beer drinker. Personally, I don't drink alcohol, and think that booze is rather a rather nasty and unhealthy substance. The barf, the hangovers, the spins, the awful taste...I just don't get it. But then again, we all have our vices... Just know that I don't think you're not intelligent because of your sig.

it's funny how the pro-drugs people have all argued like hell that you can't just say drugs are bad because "use is dfferent from abuse" but they've totally forgotten that statement when they bring up alcohol.

this argument has gotten completely rediculous and become a bunch of 'my chemicals are more ok than your chemicals.' if you really wanna know why i personally don't like drugs, take a look at the title of this thread. "They rule!!!!" yup, they do. and i'd rather not be ruled by them.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

Anyhow, Kuru - If I remember correctly, the study you mentioned only refers to red wine, not all alcohol in general.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
"They rule!!!!" yup, they do. and i'd rather not be ruled by them.

---

but you still do them!
you have said yourself that you still smoke weed (although not very often)

but i know what your getting at, i was just trying to point out that everyone is so concerned with the details that they miss the "big" picture. instead of saying your right, about the beer/wine thing, i went straight to something that attacked your character to make me seem right. the fact is
none of us are right!!! if you think drugs are bad then they are bad, if you drugs are good then they are good, if you think horse sex is fun then your a sick bastard!

this is a subject that everyone will face in there life. doctors hand out drugs, (which driving on prescription drugs is the same as driving under the influnce. that was the only question that i missed on my driving test)
you have to answer it, i don't care what you do, just don't tell me who i am because i use a drug or two/three/whatever.
i'm not wrong because i use drugs and visa versa (i think that is how it is spelled)

my point is:

don't goto lunch then try to come back and pickup where you left off!??

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

Through my own choice and self-discipline, I chose not to take cannabis any more (because I wanted to keep the amount of stuff going in my body down, and as I didn't smoke tobacco I didn't need the damage to my lungs).

As for mind-altering narcotics, methamphetamine, LSD, E, phenethlyamines, mushrooms and derivatives -- I have no desire whatsoever to take them. You need a feeling of perception? Stand at the top of a very high hill when it's blazing with rain, put your arms in the air and feel yourself breathing. Feeling small and being put in perspective gives you a very enhanced view on life, we are a very small part in the experience that is life -- and I manage to experience many aspects of it without having to "unlock them" using drugs.

Natural exhiliaration can be wonderful. Get out in the countryside and walk. There are so many feelings and experiences locked in the human body, using drugs is an easy way to get to them but I personally think the natural paths are much more fulfilling.

And by natural I don't mean taking mushrooms or smoking weed. I mean by just living.

Over and out! Stay happy!

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by incubus:
I have only ever done two drugs -- alcohol (which I still do) and cannabis (although admittedly, there's tobacco in a joint).

---

Tobacco in a joint? I think that must be an English thing.

why the hell would you do that?

personally, i am terrified of becoming nicotine addicted, so i mix my blunts with pot and herbal cigs. 100\% tabacco and nicotine free, plus they taste like nothing (as opposed to cigs), arent as harsh, and gives high smoke output, for that way-cool hardcore smoker image

hope that answers your question

In the US we almost always smoke it by itself. A few fanatics clean their pipes after EVERY use so they can get the full flavor.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fatbitch:
yeah and its fuckin expensive too. how much would you pay for 7 grams for example? here thats 贄, about โ US

---

damn!!!!

here 7 grams would cost about ฤ.
but it's different in every state.

quote:

---

Originally posted by pengu1nn:
damn!!!!
here 7 grams would cost about ฤ.
but it's different in every state.

---

Man, you must be smoking some dirty fuckin schwag if you're getting practically a 1/4 of an ounce for ฤ.

Here in California, one chronic gram is ฤ, 3.5 grams is โ. But I've noticed that people outside of the California, Washington, and Colorado triangle don't get the real lucious marijuana like this:
< http://www.erowid.org/plants/show_image.php3?image=cannabis/images/archive/cannabis_spp_bud7.jpg >

BTW here in the great state of Colorado you are looking at ฮ-ำ of a 1/4 once, ษ for some bunk-ass schwag.

------------------
Presented in double vision when drunk.

Best deal I've found here in CA is ฽ for an eighth (3.5g) of chronic. Usually โ-60 an eighth tho.

That was some KIND looking bud! Around here, if you're lucky enough to know someone with a "medical condition," you can sample some Grade A+++ weed from the cannabis clubs... white widow, mmm...

we have good bud, we just don't divide it into different price groups. ok, let me correct myself, we do have 2 different prices for "normal/good/very good" and what we call "two toke" bud, i think most of the two toke is laced with something so i don't fuck with it. i don't want someone else lacing my shit (i would rather do that myself, if at all)

quote:

---

Originally posted by pengu1nn:
i think most of the two toke is laced with something so i don't fuck with it. i don't want someone else lacing my shit (i would rather do that myself, if at all)

---

The two-toke (and even one-toke!) bud here isn't laced. It's just high quality hybrid smoke... usually a variety of Cannabis Indica. I've had hydroponic homegrown from Sonoma Country that had so many THC crystals on it it sparkled in the light... I took one phat bong rip and I was drooling on myself for two hours... definately THC, just a LOT of it at once...

Laced stuff here is almost ALWAYS sold as being laced ("snow-capped" etc.)... after all, why tell someone it's not laced, when you can say it IS laced and get more $$$ for it? It's a lot more common to by "snowcapped" stuff that turns out to be plain old marijuana. Probably the same down under... the normal rules of economics still apply in the drug world

I do drink beer, but never to drunkeness..usually 1 or 2 beers in a week.

That said, I have no problem with people who want to do that, so long as they realize there are consequences for their actions, be they physical, psychological, or what have you.

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I never let my schooling get in the way of my education - Mark Twain