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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on October 08, 2001 at 07:46 AM

Secondly, my only problem with a lot of the peace demonstrators is that they don't really present a solution. They just say "we want peace." As I understand it, they just simply want "no war" without providing a viable path to get there.

There was a peace rally recently here where one man with a bullhorn walked behind them presenting his side of the argument. The peace rally participators got violent with him and started shoving and attacking him until the campus police stepped in.

A daily dose of irony is good for the soul.

edit: I'm reminded of an X-Files episode where Mulder requests "peace on Earth" from a Genia. The result? No people.

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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

This message has been edited by Observer on October 08, 2001 at 08:10 AM

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"

And the biggest problem with the peace demonstrators is that they become violent. Yeah, they have every right to protest and say what they want - but they seem to forget that everyone else has that right too!

Personally, I don't like war, but sometimes it's necessary. I'm glad our military has finally figured out how to win wars and at the same time win public opinion by taking the moral high ground. They learned from Vietnam, even if no one else has... things like "kill the bad guys while helping the civilians as much as possible."

Of course, both the doves and the hawks are going to disagree with that, for one reason or another, but it sounds like a DAMN good plan to me.

quote:

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Originally posted by ic0n0:
I think we should leave the middle-east maybe they would leave us alone then. This may seem a little to simplistic but really what do we care what the afghan’s and Iranians think.

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That's a strange attitude. Do you know why there's civil unrest in the middle-east? Because the extremist Muslims there believe that they deserve to live in Israel, and would love to kill off all Jews that are there... and anywhere else if they could.

What happens if we leave, stop our diplomacy, in addition stop representing our interests in settling the unrest? It goes to hell in a handbasket. We are one of the biggest obstacles to crushing those Damn Jews (TM). If we leave, the crazy Muslims (as opposed to the sane ones) will finally be able to reclaim their friggin 50 acres of holy land and live in paradise, or some shit. That's why they want to terrorize us, and threaten us to leave the area. We're not bullying, we're the teacher holding the two kids by the shirts and dragging their asses to the principles office.

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"

my biggest hope is that after we blow the Taliban and bin Laden's asses into the next universe, we stick around and help Afghanistan get a working democratic government.

It's all a bit imperialistic, but the alternative is far worse - more civil unrest in the Middle East, which sucks for the entire world.

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on October 09, 2001 at 09:57 PM

It bothers me that people would devote their life, the only one they get, to destroying something because of what some fucking book said. So what if Jews are the bastard son of Mohammed, or whatever the fucking book says. I don't care. Books shouldn't inspire people to kill. BOOOOOOOKKK!!! A bunch of words written down on parchment!!!! How important is that!!?!!??!!??!

Sorry. If got wanted to speak words to me, he would have made mountains the shape of things I need to hear. He doesn't use the technology of people around year 0AD. This is a general religion arguement, but really this is what it's all about. Muslims hate Jews because it's proscribed in the Koran. Fuck that book. No book of an ever-loving god would pit two peoples against each other.

It's fucking stupid and I feel like I'm the only one that realizes it. Religion is a man-made fabrication of his understanding of the universe at the time. If a real god wanted to pit peoples against each other, he would have been a hell of a lot more sinister about it. From the teachings of religions, the idea of putting two religions in the ring against each other is more the work of a Satan. How do you fucks know that it wasn't him that wrote the Koran to make each other hate. Arrrrggggghhhhh!!!!

I am a person who wants peace more than anybody else. It irritates me to no end that people fight for the stupidest of reasons. Fuck holy lands, fuck God, fuck Jihads, fuck all of it. It's not like we're living in a world of shortage. We can all live like kings if we get along. It's the fuckers who bang their bibles to prove a twisted point that ruin it for us.

I'm done. Going to pass out now before I embarress myself further. It all just gets to me, given the astrological significance of it all. Sorry.

i will say however jews owned that land before arabs. before islam was evena fucking idea up mohammad's ass. it was the split of jerusalem that caused.. </lecture> excuse me..

/me clears throat.

heaves, there's no wrong in your venting. hell, everyone needs to vent out sometime or another... but over here in America we're separated from that "holy land" war bullshit... this war has been going on for thousands of years..

but, i'm with you when i say fuck all that religion bullshit. religion is man made. God didn't make religion. God made commandments, and otherwise directives... but not organized religion... now whether you believe in God or not is up to you, this diefinately doesn't ned to go that far in discussion... but i do beieve it's high time that the muslim world give up adn accept our presence protecting the Israeli's and their land. *shrug& i know it's impossible, but it's what eventually should happen.

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Quotation is a serviceable substitute for wit.

quote:

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Originally posted by ic0n0:
And who was living in the area we now call Israel 80 years ago? Arabs. I think Israel has a right to exist but the Israelis didn’t have the right to kick them out being that they had lived there over 500 years in succession. Yes the area known as Israel was the ancient homeland of the Jewish people but forcing people to move out of an area they have inhabited for generations is wrong just as the original Diaspora of the Jews was. Israel has a lot of blood on its hands as do we and the Palestinians, but our unquestioning and relentless support of a state that is based on religion doesn’t really fit with our so-called world view. I am not suggesting we let the Arabs have Israel and allow them to murder the 4 million Jews there I am suggesting we be somewhat moderate on our views. I was only joking before when I suggested we leave the Middle East all together.

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ok ic0n0, the Israeli's didn't kick the Arabs out per se. The British basically had a snarling pitt bull and some other middle-sized non-agressive dog by their scruffs. They then suddenly let go and ran away. Both people were living there, and as soon as the British troops left, the Palestinians, along with 5 other arab nations, gang banged the Israeli's. It's a miracle they survived. Today, we support the Israeli's (as opposed to the arabs), because they are a democratic state which supports peace and condemns terrorism, as opposed to the palestinians who do just the opposite.

One of the TV shows (20/20,60min) was interviewing young black men and asking them if it was ok to stop people if they looked arab.

MOST of them said yes they should be stopped and questioned.

With out skipping a beat the reporter asked them that since 60\%+ of the crime in the US is commited by young black men is it ok to stop them and question them too.

With out thinking about the statement they just made they launched into the ratial profiling thing and said how that was wrong and ratialy motivated.

The reporter then calmly replayed their last statement to them about what they said about stopping arabs and questioned them on it.

The dumb looks and back pedaling were great.

Basicly profiling is ok to them...as long as they are not part of the profile...

Just found it funny

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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

Now, if a whole bunch of blond german types were to start bombing shit over here at the same time that Germany declared war on us, there's a good chance that I'd be profiled. I wouldn't be all that happy with the idea, but I would understand the motivations.

Disclaimer, I don't like profiling, it's a violation of personal freedoms, but what are you going to do?

quote:

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Originally posted by sHuoReNviOLiN:
No mention of the peaceful demonstrations the Israeli riot police break up all the time with their...questionable methods.

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Something interesting, most of the Palestinean demonstrations that are being broken up in the last few weeks have been by Palistinean police, by shooting into the crowd. And, America publicy supports the idea of a Palistinean state... as long as they can live in peace with the Jews. Wishful thinking, I know.

quote:

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Originally posted by askheaves:
Sorry. If got wanted to speak words to me, he would have made mountains the shape of things I need to hear. He doesn't use the technology of people around year 0AD. This is a general religion arguement, but really this is what it's all about. Muslims hate Jews because it's proscribed in the Koran. Fuck that book. No book of an ever-loving god would pit two peoples against each other.

It's fucking stupid and I feel like I'm the only one that realizes it. Religion is a man-made fabrication of his understanding of the universe at the time. If a real god wanted to pit peoples against each other, he would have been a hell of a lot more sinister about it. From the teachings of religions, the idea of putting two religions in the ring against each other is more the work of a Satan. How do you fucks know that it wasn't him that wrote the Koran to make each other hate. Arrrrggggghhhhh!!!!

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WOW! I have not seen this much blatant ignorance in a long time. Do you really think that the Koran states that Jews must be hated? Well, you're stupid if you think that. Have you ever heard the concept of "people of the book"? I learned that in 8th grade history. The Koran specifically states that Christians and Jews MUST be tolerated, but they can be forced to pay a tax to worship as they please. It does not say anything about killing/hating Jews or Christians. For the record and to clear up any ideas of bias you may have, I am a Christian, not a Muslim. It would help in general if people like you actually knew what you were speaking out against. The world would be a much better place.

This message has been edited by a.out on October 14, 2001 at 03:36 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by a.out:
The Koran specifically states that Christians and Jews MUST be tolerated, but they can be forced to pay a tax to worship as they please.

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ROFL... I am liking the Koran more and more all the time.

From what I remember, it's a lot like the Bible - mostly peaceful, with some violent parts, and a lot of internal contradiction.

Muslims, like Christians, pick and choose what parts they think are important.

<rant>
Let's not forget that there are plenty of Christians out there who think it's okay to kill people that aren't Christian, such as abortion doctors, homos, socialists, and liberals...

"But those are just the crazy ones!" you say. "Christianity isn't about that."

Has it occurred to anybody that maybe, just maybe, MUSLIMS ARE JUST LIKE CHRISTIANS, AND EVERYBODY ELSE FOR THAT MATTER? Some people want to take over the world. Most people just want to live their lives and be left alone. The book someone believes in has little to do with whether they're peaceful or a murderer.

The only exception I can think of is Buddhism, which is more of a philosophy than a religion.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on October 14, 2001 at 04:33 PM

My general belief is that religion is outdated. If we decided to build religion for the first time in the year 2001, it would look a hell of a lot different than religions created thousands of years ago. It reflects times, and times have never changed faster than they do now.

Any section of a book that people follow so religiously, for lack of a better word, can be used to manipulate them into doing anything, despite all of the contradictions around that section. The bible is generally a good survival manual to living amongst men. The Koran is the same way, and for the most part, the message is clear: respect people. It pains me to see people setting up a hate structure around a section, instead of a peace structure around the general message.

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"

quote:

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CK do you support a Palestinian state?

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sure, because if they were an actual state then Israel could officially declare war on them and beat the shit out of them if they do anything retarded.

it's not going to happen though. Israel offered the palestinians a state, basically offered 95\% of what they wanted to them, and arafat still denied the offer. THEY DONT CARE HOW MUCH THEY GET OUT OF ANY DEAL, ALL THEY WANT IS TO ERADICATE ALL JEWS. once you realize their motives, their actions seem a LOT clearer.

also, I agree with DSL. It doesn't matter worth a fuck if the Koran says that violence is wrong and everyone should get together all fine and dandy, it is how the muslim people interpret the koran which matters. if a large portion of the muslim world thinks that it is their duty to hate/kill ameriancs/jews, then THAT IS WHAT THEIR RELIGION IS ABOUT.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
if a large portion of the muslim world thinks that it is their duty to hate/kill ameriancs/jews, then THAT IS WHAT THEIR RELIGION IS ABOUT.

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That's called Dogma. All religions have some of that... the consensus of those involved creating the definition.

definition of dogma:
a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds

sounds like the same thing to me

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
if a large portion of the muslim world thinks that it is their duty to hate/kill ameriancs/jews, then THAT IS WHAT THEIR RELIGION IS ABOUT.

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If a large portion of the Christian world drinks Diet Pepsi, then THAT IS WHAT THEIR RELIGION IS ABOUT.

Right?

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
Today, we support the Israeli's (as opposed to the arabs), because they are a democratic state which supports peace and condemns terrorism, as opposed to the palestinians who do just the opposite.

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Yeah cuz I bet all Palestinians hate peace and wanna kill as many Israelis as possible. No mention of the peaceful demonstrations the Israeli riot police break up all the time with their...questionable methods.

Don't you think the Israelis would be the ones blowing shit up if they were in the Palestinians' position? For that matter, wouldn't anyone? What if Americans were in the position of the Palestinians...what do you think we'd do?

--
Veistran
-I guess this makes me the new anti-christ?

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
no, christians don't preach drinking pepsi

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Oh yeah? What are those Pepsi ads I see?

Unless of course you mean, -as part of their religion-?

Oh my, do you suppose that maybe, just maybe, "killing/hating Americans" -isn't- what Islam is about?

::dun dun dun::

Here is the error of your reasoning:

• christians preach good will towards men
  
• many christrians drink pepsi
  
• the christian religion is about being good toward fellow man
  
• drinking pepsi is an unrelated coincidence
  

• the koran states that peace is good
  
• many radical muslims preach hatred towards ameriancs and jews
  
• a significant percentage of muslims believe radicals
  
• islam is about destroying the west. the fact that the koran says peace is good is an unrelated coincidence.
  

my point: organized religion reflects the attitudes and actions of its constituents.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on October 16, 2001 at 08:31 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
just because you are TOO STUPID to understand simple logic doesn't mean I'm wrong.

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Oh this is great. Come on here spouting crap about how Christianity is all goodness and light, while Islam is all darkness and evil...and then you somehow justify it by "logic" and call all opposing views stupid! I wonder, if you're like this online, how dumb are you in person?

quote:

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Here is the error of your reasoning:

• christians preach good will towards men
  
• many christrians drink pepsi
  
• the christian religion is about being good toward fellow man
  
• drinking pepsi is an unrelated coincidence
  

• the koran states that peace is good
  
• many radical muslims preach hatred towards ameriancs and jews
  
• a significant percentage of muslims believe radicals
  
• islam is about destroying the west. the fact that the koran says peace is good is an unrelated coincidence.
  

my point: organized religion reflects the attitudes and actions of its constituents.

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OK, here's your list, revised.

• -some- Christians preach good will towards men...and -some- "radical" Christians go around blowing up abortion clinics, homosexuals, non-whites, and anything else they can lay their hands on.
  
• many Christians drink Pepsi
  
• the -New Testament of the Bible- states that you should be good toward fellow man
  
• drinking Pepsi is an unrelated coincidence
  

• the Koran, similar to the Bible, states that peace is good
  
• many radical Muslims preach hatred towards Americans and Jews, just as many radical Christians preach hatred towards...well, everything.
  
• a significant percentage of Muslims believe those radicals, just as a significant percentage of Christians believe that Muslims...along with Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, polytheists, atheists, Asians, blacks, Hispanics, homosexuals, etc etc etc...are uncultured, sinning bastards who are going straight to hell.
  
• Islam is about destroying the West just about as much as Christianity is about destroying non-white Catholics...aka not at all. Similarly, the fact that the Koran says peace is good is about as much an unrelated coincidence as the fact that the Bible advocates good will toward men.
  

My point: You're an idiot. Pull your bigoted head outta your ass...you're a prime example of why people like Osama bin Laden and the Taliban even exist...because people, no matter what religion, think the same way. There will always be radicals...you'd do well not to group people like this.

This message has been edited by sHuoReNviOLiN on October 16, 2001 at 09:49 PM

e.g., the difference between radical christians assasinating 1 or 2 abortion doctors, and an entire network of organized terrorists, sponsered by several major governments, and the fanatical support of millions worldwide.

again, my whole point based on this fact which you have overlooked.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
there are a few holes in your argument.

e.g., the difference between radical christians assasinating 1 or 2 abortion doctors, and an entire network of organized terrorists, sponsered by several major governments, and the fanatical support of millions worldwide.

again, my whole point based on this fact which you have overlooked.

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The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition are an interesting thing to remember...granted they're not representative of the majority of Christianity today, but these are developing countries...we've had more time to develop socially.

Also, I would think the IRA is to Christianity about as much as Palestinian terrorism is to Islam...can't just use examples within the US.

Sure, the Islamic religion currently has more problems with radicals than the Christian religion. That still doesn't mean Islam is about hating the West. There -are- Muslims in the States...do you think they're all here just so they can attack us (verbally or physically)?

Oh, and...it's hardly just the Middle East that hates the US...and last I heard, China wasn't Islamic...I would think most of the hate directed at the US has about as much to do with Islam as drinking Pepsi has to do with Christianity...just a few Middle Eastern leaders use it as an excuse.

boycott nestle!

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

quote:

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Sure, the Islamic religion currently has more problems with radicals than the Christian religion. That still doesn't mean Islam is about hating the West. There -are- Muslims in the States...do you think they're all here just so they can attack us (verbally or physically)?

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actually, something like 80\% of the mosques in the US preach hatred towards western society. The terrorists who carried out the September 11th attack were all US citizens or here on student visas and such.

and your first analogy was correct...

quote:

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The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition are an interesting thing to remember...granted they're not representative of the majority of Christianity today, but these are developing countries...we've had more time to develop socially.

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Islam today is in a very similar position as christianity was during the inquisition (which was infact a counter-measure to muslim invasions and occupations of spain).

Edit: grammar

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on October 17, 2001 at 10:19 AM

quote:

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People who are Muslims in the states do not have to assimilate if they don't want to

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true, but they don't have the right to blow up shit.

quote:

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why wouldn't we here about Muslims in the states going on rampages.

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we have

This message has been edited by CatKnight on October 17, 2001 at 10:58 AM

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"

Facts:
In the 80's the communists from USSR tried to take over the country of Afghanastan.
Bin Ladin went to Afghanastan to help fight the communists about this time. He didn't do much/any fighting, but he did provide money, materials, and camps. This is where he started Al Quala. It was a simple list of all the people he had worked with/helped.
They were losing.
Egypt or some other Middle East country got the USA, under George Bush or Reagon, can't remember which,to provide more arms and training and such. This was the turning point for Bin Ladin and his Al Quala.
Bin Ladin publicly thanked USA for helping. So, at one point in time, he LIKED the USA.
We decided to move into Saudian Arabia(sp?) soon after "to help maintain the peace". We basicly setup operations very close to several of their most holy sites.
They really did not like this. Bin Ladin most notably.

Here are some basic info on Islamic people as they have been treated in other countries.
In countries such as Eygpt, a very large majority of the population was Islamic, but they had no political power. So, they tried to create a political party so they could have representation. But the current ruling body didn't like this, so they basicly arrested, tourtured, and killed many Islamic people and their leaders. Needless to say, they did not like the government of Eygpt.
This happened in many other countries as well. Basicly, the Islamic people where treated like shit around the Middle East.
Now, these various governments were in trouble for one reason or another. We, the benevolent people of the US, decided to help shore up these countries. We gave them economic relief, and most importantly, arms and training.
So, most of the tourturing and killing of Islamic people were allowed to continue because these governments did not fall, i.e., because of the US.
A very large portion of the common Islamic people started to blame us for their continuing troubles.

Ok, this is the way the world sat around the beginning of the 90's. This is the world that many of the current young, male Islamics have grown up in. They have basicly been told from a very early age that the US is one of their biggest enemies, and then we pretty much did give them the proof they needed.

Now, with that all said, I will flat out agree with people who say that most of the terrorists anger did come from our foreign policy. But this does not give them the right to kill 5000+ of our innocent people. But if we are going to try and understand why this happened, and what we can do to help prevent this from happening again, we must accept responsibility for our actions in the past, learn from these mistakes, and not repeat them in the future.

And CK, before you start preparing to get up on your high horse to say I'm wrong because I'm showing that the USA may have contributed to the horror of the 11th, I got all of these facts off PBS's Frontline. They did a big story about this a week ago and they explored the history of the group(s) who was responsible for the 11th. And I'll believe any one on PBS (even Big Bird) over your ranting. Thank you, and goodnight.

This message has been edited by demonk on October 17, 2001 at 10:47 PM

I didn't pickup that part of the report ic0n0, but you are right. Killing people just because they were trying to get some political power for themselves is not right.

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Now, with that all said, I will flat out agree with people who say that most of the terrorists anger did come from our foreign policy. But this does not give them the right to kill 5000+ of our innocent people.

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I agree with this almost completely.

quote:

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But if we are going to try and understand why this happened, and what we can do to help prevent this from happening again, we must accept responsibility for our actions in the past, learn from these mistakes, and not repeat them in the future.

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not quite. our first priority is to survive and prevent this from hapening again. after which, we can correct past mistakes and make things good.

I have NEVER sayed that the United States is totally correct and right. All I have been saying is that the terrorists were WRONG, and any other interpretation of their actions is just ASININE.

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"

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10 PRINT "HOME"
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