Topic: ¿Abortion Yo?
started by: Client
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"Around 2300, every square mile of the earth's landmass will have the population density of Manhattan at noon."
-Isaac Asimov
Ever see a cage of rats starve to death?
cr0bar, any way of coding a dislike button in the board? If it gets to a certain number of dislikes, it gets closed. It may sound like censorship, but it could keep contentious/dumb posts out of here.
Don't get me wrong guys, I think this is a very important topic, but a bit too controversial and without resolution.
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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.
Your call Cr0, but personally i think doing anything to eliminate posts besides ignoring them is a waste of your time.
one, not my body, isnt my descision
two, if you look at all the unwanted/unplanned children in the world a lot have a shitty life, and the parents (or mother if the dad split) have shitty lives, so wouldnt it be better for both if there was an abortion?
One thing I have a big problem with is people who have more than one abortion. I should think that after the first time they would learn and not repeat the same mistakes again. One way that would in a way take care of this problem, although I'm not sure I'd support it because it does violate the mother's rights, would be to have it so that if you get an abortion they also do some sort of operation to eliminate the possibility of getting pregnant. I think this would make people think twice.
The biggest thing I dislike about abortion aside from the moral issues of killing fetuses is that it takes away responsibility, and people do not have enough of that these days. Instead of thinking, "Should we do this? You may get pregnant." people think, "What the hell. You can always get an abortion." And that's a problem.
So for the most part I'd have to say that I'm pro life. Don't get up in arms about it, but I feel that even unborn babies deserve a chance at life. After all, my mother gave me a chance, and I have made a lot out of it so far. I've said my piece, so I'll stop now.
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As for using the example that we are the only species that kills foetuses, wrong! We are not the only one...in fact other species do worse things they will eat their own young! At least we don't do that.
As for brain activity it can't be proven one or the other when the human brain gains conciousness, or cognizance as I would prefer. Pro-lifers of course would support and trumpet any view that lowered the timeframe in which a foetus shows activity.
In summation I believe in one thing...if you are an anti-abortionist then you will not have one, if you aren't anti- then the option is there. It's _YOUR_ choice, not mine or anyone elses.
regards, reman
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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.
As for the brain activity thing, brain patterns associated with concious thought have been detected very early in fetuses: I saw that on a PBS program once. While we don't know everything, we do know enough to be able to be reasonably sure that the fetus is more than just a sack of protoplasm that somehow becomes a fully concious human being at the time of birth.
I'm not saying that anyone else has to live by my views, I'm merely sharing them. To every action we take there is a consequence, and we should think about those consequences before taking the action. That's where responsibility comes in, and by allowing abortions into our society, we've effectively reduced the consequence for pregnancy at the expense of taking human life. I don't think that that's a bargain at all.
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Yet, all things considered, abortion is Sick. And is used today as a method of choosing a child's sex in some countries...the human race never ceases to amaze me...i am Sadly pro choice.
However, the real issue is whether people should be able to make decisions about their own body and biology. I know that some people argue "Well, the baby isn't really the mothers, it just happens to be inside her", but let's face the facts. Until birth, the baby is essentially a part of the mothers body. Now, my belief is that because of this, the mother should be given the freedom to make decisions that effect her first and foremost. Remember, the process of abortion affects the mother the most out of anyone. Why is it not fair to say that she should have the choice to say "yes" or "no? to such actions?
To this end, I suppose I am pro-choice. Not because I like abortion, and "baby-killing" and all that, but because I feel that mothers should have a choice of what is (or isn't) done to their body.
Oh yeah, and another thought- Some people believe that the moment conception has taken place, the "baby" growing inside the mother is sacred and shouldn't be harmed. By this, it would suggest that the single fertilized female sex cell is sacred, and should not be touched. However, in experiments in labs all over the world sex cells are fertilized for experiments and medical research. Is this not murder? Is taking a sperm cell from some guy and an egg cell from some woman, sticking them together in a petri dish and looking at them in a microscope for a while murder?
This issue is a tough one for sure.
-FFox
Willing to take it?
As I am probably the MOST opinionated female currently on this board- you don't really have a choice.
As most women are pro-choice so am I. But it is not for the reasons you may think. My feeling has less to do with "its my body and the government/religion cant control me" and more for the "outlaw it and it will still happen" reason. What you say does Chris mean?
Picture this early part of this century there were no laws on Abortion, in fact you could have an abortion up until "quickening" (about the 5th month)-when you can actually "feel" the baby. Fast foward to the 1950's heaps of morality laws banning abortions nationwide. Did the abortion rate go down? Nope. Did the number of untimely deaths by women who were getting "illegal" abortions go up? Yeap they most certainly did. Late 1960's Roe vs Wade Decision makes abortion legal but leaves it to individual states to decide the fate of its female constituents. When states "banned" abortions did it stop them from happening? Nope. Were the abortions safer when they were control at least in part by the state? Yeap.
Im pro-choice not completely because of "it's my body" but because no matter what the law says women will seek them out. Why make not only innocent children die but women also? That's just my .02
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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard
When I say I'm pro life, that doesn't mean I want laws to make abortions illegal, I just don't like the idea of killing fetuses whether they're sentient or not. I have no problem with fertalized eggs being used in experiments, as long as it doesn't go to a point where there is a chance the baby could survive and then they kill it.
My sister had a premature baby when she still had 4 months to go till term. They were able to keep the baby alive, even though it was only a little over half way through the pregnancy. Today I have a little 2 year old nephew who is walking and talking, and shows all the potential in the world. I saw him when he was first born, and whenever I think of someone having an abortion I see that little baby, and it brings it close to home. I have a hard time imagining someone being heartless enough to want to kill something so precious.
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[quote]Contrary to reman's statement, it is shown that in the third trimester, a fetus begins to develop brain activity. (see Carl Sagan's book "A Candle in the Dark: Thoughts of Life and Death on the brink of the Millenium") At this point, it is feasible that the unborn fetus gains sentience (self awareness) and is therefore morally a human being[quote]
That's what I was talking about it's only theoretical...in fact there is no proof that all babies are "aware" and cognizant when they pop out either. The pro-lifer's just clutch at straw's to outrage the religious majority into supporting anti-abortion law's.
regards, reman
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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.
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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.
MY standings on the abortion issue is this:
If you don't want the kid, you don't have sex. If you have sex and don't want a kid and mysteriously get pregnant, it's your own damn fault. Put him up for adoption, don't kill him.
Flames? Comments? As I said before, stuff 'm 
Except...a very minor problem would be those who want abortions and fasly claim that they were raped -- who could deny them the operation?
By the way, dang good point Chrissy.
quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
when someone is raped, you can tell, there will be medical proof.
How can you tell? How exactly is rape different than rough sex? None as far as I can tell. If you were to have a law saying that you can only have an abortion if you were raped you better believe it would get abused. Like everyone else said this is a touchy issue; it's something that is a personal opinion and one that is not likely to change.
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< www.slapmahfro.net >
ya know ya wanna slap it ...
kind of hypocritical dont you think???
Drugs only hurt the person doing them. abortion conceivably (no pun intended!) can hurt more than one person.
quote:
Originally posted by Happyfish:
That's a good point, but you could say the same for cocaine addicts. Hardcore drugs are illegal, but ppl still do it anyways, and it causes all sorts of crime. Should we make that legal too...?
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aventari
"my PC 0wnz m3!"
If we made it a rule that these people had to pay their own costs, it wouldn't solve much because very few of these people would have any money at all. Besides, Canadians seem to have a burning, irrational fear of even the slightest bit of privatization in our health care system, judging by the reaction by many to the Alberta government's Bill 11, passed a few months back.
But I'm sure that most of you aren't too interested in Canadian politics, so I'll stop there. 
-FFox
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quote:
Originally posted by nautilus:
..Now, I've heard many people use the "moment of passion" argument for the reason they didn't use a condom. But murders are often crimes of passion as well; does that mean those people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions??
Actually, in a lot of cases these days, when it is determined that a murder was commited in the "flash of a second" or in "the heat of emotion", charges of first degree murder are dropped to second degree murder or even manslaughter. Do I think this is right. Not neccesarily. However, I know that human anger can easily overpower a normally well-balanced individual, and I would hate to find myself in the same situation. But once again, I find myself getting off topic, so I digress.
Ouch. There is no doubt that this is a tough topic to take. In the end, we are probaby better off for having discussed it,but still... ouch. 
-FFox
In my opinion, if you're going to have sex, esp. if you're not using birth control, you have to be able to accept the consequences. Now, I've heard many people use the "moment of passion" argument for the reason they didn't use a condom. But murders are often crimes of passion as well; does that mean those people shouldn't be held accountable for their actions?? I don't think so. I understand that an unwanted/unplanned child will in most cases not have as good a childhood with their birth parents. That's what adoption is for. There are thousands of parents who want children of their own and can't have them, and just b/c a kid was unplanned doesn't mean they don't deserve a chance at life.
And guys, just because you aren't the ones carrying the baby, it doesn't mean you shouldn't get a say in the matter. I must say I'm quite saddened by guys who take the "not my body, not my decision" attitude. It's still a growing life that is half you.
Also, I don't think we should go around legalizing things just because people are going to do it anyway. If it's something that is illegal b/c it is harmful (i.e. drugs) and the person does it, perhaps they deserve what they get. I understand your hipocracy argument, aventari, and on the issue of smoking I'm inclined to agree, but at least with alcohol it can be beneficial when used in moderation, it's abuse that makes it harmful.
quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
if they werent able to go to the police about it (who would then have a record of it) were they really raped?
This was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. As a rape victim, I can tell you from experience that there are a number of reasons why someone wouldn't go to the police about what happened. I didn't tell the cops, or even my parents for that matter, but that doesn't make my rape any less real or valid. Rape has profound psychological effects on the woman, in addition to the physical harm, and in many cases (particularly acquaintance rapes, and particularly in intimate settings such as a high school) coming forward would only exacerbate those psychological effects. There are also issues of denial, shame, and self-blame to deal with that keep a person silent. I couldn't even tell my best friend what happened for at least 6 months. However, if I had become pregnant from my rape (which, if you research it, actually happens in fairly minimal instances) I would have come forward about it, and I think rape and danger to the mother's health are the only exceptions I would make to my pro-life position. What I've said about my experiences may not change anyone's opinions, but I hope it will at least give some food for thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Firefox:
Actually, in a lot of cases these days, when it is determined that a murder was commited in the "flash of a second" or in "the heat of emotion", charges of first degree murder are dropped to second degree murder or even manslaughter.
You are right that charges are often reduced. But just b/c they are reduced doesn't mean the person receives no penalties.
If you are opposed to haveing an abortion, then don't have one, make your own choice. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop it, just like making alchohol illegal didn't stop it and making weed illegal isn't stopping it. Alot of people use the view that it's morally wrong to do and the goverment should make it illegal, but the government isn't there to provide morality, that's what your parents/church/beleif structure is there for. All making abortions illegal would do is jam up our already clogged court system and cause the unnecessary deaths of many a woman.
So which is the better choice? the death of a fetus? or the death of a fetus and a mother, you can only choose one of these.
When you really look at it, the government has a lot more control over legalized, regulated substances than ones it outright deems illegal.
This, I think, is another aspect of the desirability of free choice on the abortion issue...
-FFox
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"A christian, an anarchist-slash-prostitute, figures out the true meaning of freedom. Not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart."
-NOFX