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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.

The problem is the implementation of such a form of government.

Also, Chrissy could you pls elaborate on the differences between communism and socialism. My major is physics. Sociology is a bit out of my field.

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vegemite rocks!!!

Remember, its all your fault.

I keep finding myself reverting back to nature when I need to find examples of balance and form in society or other structures.

The best 'system' I can think of in nature is a symbiosis, where one or more organisms feed off and provide nutition for one another. eg: Tickbirds: Buffalo and others have these birds sit on them, the birds clean ticks and other parasites off them and thus get food from the beasts. Beasts remain parasite free.
A company like microsoft would get a lot less flak if, after paying shareholders from profits, they turned excess money back into circulation in helping develop other companies. Giving such companies support and access to MS tech would invariably cause these companies to develop for MS (possibly even improving MS's product), and MS would get more benefit through increased reliance and popularity and maintain it's monopoly without using agresive or harmful tactics as evinced in the trial.
Financial fundis may complain about that scenario and say that MS do return to the economy by investing in the stock market, but face it, the stock market only really helps people that invest in it and have money to begin with. Face it, what percentage of the total population DO actuall have savings in ISA's (yes, I'm in the UK don't know the US equivalent) Plus, I don't know the fiancial science enough to argue with you, but see my point that there is more to this story than making money. If you can make money and be a service to people, it inspires similar acts and is the cheapest PR you will EVER get.

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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.

however, the value of things is merely how valuable they are to humans. IE, with no power this computer instantly becomes a doorstop, worth about £5.

There are qualities in humans that are deemed as good. Intelligence, strength, physical fitness. We admire these things, and judge with them to an extent. People are not all equal, because people do not have equal helpings of the things that other people judge them by.

I like capitalism. It's the way the natural world works, only slightly abstracted. You want to eat something you go and get it, if you're a rabbit, for example, you just eat the grass under you. When we start forming societies we specialise. One person will be better than another at growing food while another will build better buildings etc. We introcude money, to represent worth, which is a necessary thing, it enables objects/work to be traded in a more fluid manner.. You still have to do something to get the money to feed yourself. That is good. It's the logical way to run a complex society.

Current implementations have it faults, benefits, namely. Giving people money while they are unemployed clearly does not fit the system. Money represents the worth of their work/goods to other people. Does your doing nothing have any worth to anyone else? No, so you should get no money for it. Does being disabled mean that the goods you create are somehow better than those a non-disabled person makes? no, so you shouldn't get disability benefits, as no-one wants to pay you to be disabled, as no one is amused by your disability.

You see my point...

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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.

First of all let me clear up a few things. I am a sociology major (this is my last semester) and I know an awful lot about Marxist Communism (since I am one). Oh don't look so surprised we didn't all die after McCarthism. I know a lot of you think that Democracy and Capitalism are the greatest things since sliced bread and Im not going to tell you they arent. But what I am going to tell you is that you have been fed in your life a whole heap of crap related to communism.
When Marx wrote "Capital" and the "Communist Manifesto" (yes with Engles) he was writing during a period of history we know as the industrial revolution. During this time he saw many of the workers (thats you and I) being exploited by the owners of the larger industries. Since we as workers only have our labour to sell it is a valued commodity for those who are in business. However that being said the owners were not interested in doing anything for these workers. In marx analysis he predicted that there would be a violent over throw of the government (violent being the key term here) and that all the nations of the world would partake in such violent measures. He also said that there are steps to communism. First being Feudilism (serfs, nobles etc) which existed in Europe prior to industrialisation then CAPTITALISM and then finally Socialism (Communism)--
Fast forward to Russia circa the Russian Revolution...in power was a Tzar (sounds like a monarchy to me) who kept his people poor and hungry. The "underclass" banned together to over throw the government. Put in place at the time of overthrow was a kind of "dummy government" lead by..give you one guess...OH VERY GOOD Lenin...no one expected this to last. In fact Russia was waiting for the rest of the world to "jump on the bandwagon" but it never happened. Not only did that not happen but the steps weren't followed. Russia went from Monarchy straight to Communism (Do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars) Something got fucked along the way.
Fast foward again to the latter part of the 20th Century- 1950's Red Scare- Kill the commie bastards. Late 1960's hundreds of thousands of men died in a pointless war to stop an IDEA from spreading (how stupid is that?)Communism/Socialism are actually great forms of government- look at canada (almost completely socialist) and they didn't fall apart. The ideas that everyone has about communism aren't true in any sense...what you think was communism wasn't and it still isn't. In theory it works and in practice it will too...we just have to wait for the rest of the world to come around to it.
So next time someone tells you "Communism works in theory but not in practice-look at Russia" tell them to shove it up their ass cause now you KNOW BETTER.

Well Ive said what i had to say ...and whether or not any of you have something to say I could careless at this point. I know at least you guys read it and that makes me happy to know at least 5 of you won't make the same mistake next time.

Of course feel free to debate me on it- but I am warning you.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

quote:

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Originally posted by Chrissy:
You have been taught that capitalism mimics the way the "natural" world works. But we are not animals in the same sense that squirles and rabbits are, on the contrary we are quite different. It is easy to see why you feel that capitalism is the best system because for all your life that is all you have known. Its hard to except change when you don't know what the outcome will be.

Just some things to think about. =)

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I do not believe that the idea of capitalism working has been taught to me, i simply think that it is the closest abstraction of the natural "you want it, you take it" system that is actually usable by a society of size.

I would like to argue that we are not so different to squirrels and rabbits as most people like to think (THIS is elitist!)

We're apes with bigger brains and less fur. That's all. True, we can communicate better and form larger, more successful economies, but i attribute this to our increased brainpower.

A group of chimpanzees were recently taught a modest amount of american sign language. They seemed to like it (they actually began conversing simply with other chimps in sign language.) When the young chimps were fighting, the mother chimps told them to love each other in sign language. You think the concept of morality is only human? Are we really so different to those chimps?

We are not sacred. We only think of ourselves that way. Why should we be above using a natural system where people can die and life isn't always great? Yes, it's regrettable some people won't be able to afford food, and will die, but why should we give money, and therefore food to those people that do not do good enough work for us? If he wants to be able to eat, he'd better be good enough at his job that people would be glad to pay him enough to eat.

Thats just ONE problem, do you have any idea what the tax rates are over here? Income Tax is over 55\% in upper tax brackets! That means to earn a buck you need to work for Ū.10 . Even lower tax brackets are in the 30 percentile.. plus a 7\% Goverment sales tax and 7\% provincial sales tax.. Then theres landtax, there are TAxes on nearly everything here and we still fall short. We on a average are far behind the states in overall medical technology and whatnot simply because we can't afford it, so sure it all sounds nice in theroy.. it doesn't quite work.

Communisim would end up the same way, because no matter what you do.. there will be people who will screw everyone else over just to get ahead.. its human nature.

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Where is that tubby bitch??

[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 22, 2000).]

The Communist government rest on the ideas of Socialism--

Think of it this way...if the government controled all the production all of the factories- everyone would be paid the same- everyone would have the same amount of work hours and everyone would be treated equal in the eyes of the law. Your court system would be changed (because the rich couldnt get better lawyers- OJ anyone?) Your Health Care would benefit all, education etc everyone gets everything and no one gets more or less.

AND the ideas of competition in the HUMAN WORLD are not comparable to that of the animal world no matter how much you want to think it is. Animals are not competitive in the same sense that humans are- thats not elitist its the truth. Squirels dont forage for nuts, save them and wait until there is limited supply and then sell them off to their squirel friends do they? No they don't. Competitiveness is a purely human invention-

Open your mind a little bit- you can see this is true.
=)

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

quote:

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Originally posted by Chrissy:
AND the ideas of competition in the HUMAN WORLD are not comparable to that of the animal world no matter how much you want to think it is. Animals are not competitive in the same sense that humans are- thats not elitist its the truth. Squirels dont forage for nuts, save them and wait until there is limited supply and then sell them off to their squirel friends do they? No they don't. Competitiveness is a purely human invention-

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Hmmn. The squirrel has to be competative in the collection of nuts and moderately able to protect their stast from nest-raiding animals. The concept of trading is human, granted, but the competition element is still there in s different form. The squirrel is able to provide for itself by being efficient in nut collection, a person may be able to provide for themselves by being good at polishing antique furniture.

Competition, yes, slightly different form, same competition. Don't forget that the human world and the animal world are actually the same world.

There is always some form of competition. Humans will compete against each other. This is our natural behaviour (otherwise, why do people play sport?).

AnimalPrime, why should you get free healthcare and schooling? I agree it's nice. Everyone ends up paying for your kidney operation(or whatever). Nice, but why should the other people have to pay for your operations? You're being well is not worth anything to them, or what you can provide them.

Hell, I'm all for free healthcare and education and everything else we get free and I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Dustman.. they'll pay for your operation because you would have to pay for thiers if they had to get one to.

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

[This message has been edited by j0eSmith (edited June 22, 2000).]

You need to stop making false comparisons because they weaken your argument. Again this was my suggestion for the "Breasts" rant- read M.Foucult and you will find that these ideas do not just "appear" out of thin air.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

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"When aiming three blocks away at a 4th story window from your apartment with a high powered air gun and scope. Always make sure there is not a walking patrol cop below your building."

Communism is like democracy and socilism is like capitalism...in the representiveness. Communism is the form of government set in place-whereas socialism is the ideological base for communism (ie that everyone should have access to health care etc) Do you understand now masher?

I agree the world is too greedy to become communist and my thoughts are idealistic at best, nieve at worst. My main point of posting wasnt to allow you all to get a sense of my alliegence to either one form or other but to clarify the difference in what people THINK THEY KNOW and what is the TRUTH.

In the United States (unlike Canada and Australia) our main stay is the idea that one can get ahead with enough work. You only think this is true. It has been shown that whatever class you are born into is the class you stay in. There is a huge difference between Ascribed status and Acheived status. We only believe that capitalism and democracy are the best systems because few other systems have been tried.

Now I would venture to say that I am not a materialistic person in the sense that I don't feel I need to posses many things to be happy in my life. I would also venture to say that Iam not the kind of person who seeks status or recognition for anything. Of course this makes me the perfect candidate for socialism/communsim. You think that Capitalism is a "natural" idea- and I beg to differ.

You have been taught that capitalism mimics the way the "natural" world works. But we are not animals in the same sense that squirles and rabbits are, on the contrary we are quite different. It is easy to see why you feel that capitalism is the best system because for all your life that is all you have known. Its hard to except change when you don't know what the outcome will be.

Just some things to think about. =)

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

And yet, part of me loves the democratic and capitalist world I live in, for it obeys the laws of nature so well…based more on intelligence and leadership these days, the better you are the higher you go, and I would have to disagree with your “born into your permanent class” statement Chirssy, for I believe that in America it is survival of the fittest once again, but “fittest” has been redefined to represent something disturbing, like richest or most corrupt.

Overall…I enjoy living in America because I know I can succeed and do very well, but I also realize that another not so fortunate would not feel to well, or to well fed either…

Thusly, at this point, what is there to do in my case but appreciate my life to the fullest and try to give others that ability as well?
I know there is no one solution, and thinking about the unsolvable problems too much will make you miss life, and that’s the biggest mistake of them all.

[This message has been edited by Client (edited June 23, 2000).]

So we compete differently to the bird pecking for the worm, so does the rabbit. Why does this fact elevate us so far above animals?? should the rabbit be considered above the bird because of this? no.

There are not infinite rescources. We have no natural predators (well, none that we can't easily avoid) so we must compete for these rescources against other members of the same race.

Communism removes this by saying that each person shall be provided what they need. Sounds nice, but doesn't take into account that there is a limit on total rescource consumation. Saying that each person has a right to food denies the fact that there must be competition. There must be competition due to rescource limits.

Communism is in this respect an ideal-world solution. The world will never be ideal.

If you think that's a good thing look at what the Catholic Church has done. It has done both good and bad (anyone who know's also know's they have done the _very_ good and the _very_ bad). Looking at what we have today on the Internet and in OSS I say there will be much good and much bad to come of this.

As for the real topic...I am all for socialism, but yes I like my democracy. As chrissy pointed out here in Australia (where I am from) we have a socialist/democracy. And anyone who's studied our politics know's we have two sides the left- and right-wing. The right-wing create new socialist policies increasing welfare, send our country broke etc. Then when we get sick of that we vote in the left-wingers to economically rationlise and get things under control, then we vote them back out again.

regards, reman

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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.

the real reason i'm writing is chrissy's comment that in capitalism, you can't advance in status and you stay in whatever class you're born in. i say: bullSHIT. don't even shovel me that EXCUSE that people have been using forever to be lazy. i can think of five close adult friends of mine right now off the top of my head that have been born in poverty or close to it and worked their asses off to get in the places they are today, mostly uppder middle class.

about the whole gov't control of factories paragraph, yeah, they tried that. same thing happened that i think will always happen. controllers of gov't only did what was good for them, not for the common man. common man gets poor, hungry, and pissed, and finds a revolutionary figure to follow because he believes that anything must be better than being poor, hungry, and pissed.

and no, sqirrels don't sell their nuts. that's just an extra step we've added. the whole concept is just the same: get as much as you can before someone else does. and what is squirrel currency if not nuts? berries?

you are amazed that we can't see the differences between the "human" world and the "animal" world. i are amazed that you can't see all the similarities. and i am waiting to hear all of the differences that you keep alluding to. in case you have forgotten, we ARE classified as animals.

and i have seen all those examples you gave. the concentration on the cat's face is the exact same i have seen on an opponent's face while playing pickup basketball when he is guarding me. they are both focused on just one thing, and conquering that one thing. i am their prey. they are both hungry for it, and both know only their skill can take care of the task at hand. and have you ever seen a person looking desperately for a job? scurrying about like a certain small mammal with a bushy tail. just looking for a place to get nuts (no pun intended) before they're all taken up and they starve for the winter.

and if competition is just human, why do males of every species fight each other like hell every year to get the prize female?

i have refuted some of your opinions, but that is just what all of this is, opinions. you have proclaimed your word as the truth a couple of times, and that bothers me. example:

Open your mind a little bit- you can see this is true.

just remember, just because you say it or hear it doesn't mean it's true.

/novel

OK Octavian- here is the thing. In my own personal research - as well as many different papers Ive read by well known sociologist I can tell you that your claim is false. Now Im not saying that your friends didnt make it up thru the latter of success just by being able to do so. But the simple fact remains that people who are born into lower class status very rarely if ever move up to upper class status. Its like this- born middle class you may move slightly towards your goal in your 60+ years of life but not too much more then that Im afraid.-- There have been several studies written on social stratification in the United States (and other western cultures) that supports this view. I WILL get back to you on the name of a book or study or URL that will help you understand this better. Just I'm in the middle of another research project ATM and really dont have time. But if you remind me again I will find the information.
The stratification of the western world depends on this capitalistic point of view. Yes the main idea of capitalism is social darwinism but even darwin's theory had its problems.
The other thing I want to say that has little if anything to do with this subject is that people are starting to take things personally. Debaters shouldnt get personal because it makes your arguement look weaker then what it really is. Everyone here makes good points and I admit that freely. Im not trying to change your mind or influence your view of how you see the world. What I am trying to do is to get people to be more cognitive and to formulate their ideas. I say keep arguing and debating with me. Show your case to me and keep the info coming. Im willing to concede points to you if I feel they are good points. But you have to be willing to do the same. Thats what a good debate is about.
The last thing I want to say is that I hope all of you see this as a debate and not a personal attack on your ethics/worldview because it really isnt. Just keep that in mind next time you post.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

You have in the past suggested that most of these opinions have not been thought through, Don't just say "THINK people!" - point out the logic flaw that led you to believe it to not be sensible in the first place. If you believe certain literature would affect our opinion, feel free to present it to us in a succinct manner, but know that we are not going to bother reading loads of sociological journals to help percieve your viewpoint...

and you say social darwinism had its problems. it has many, but socialism/communism isn't quite perfect either.

One thing that is not well understood is that our "middle class" here in America is about as well off as the "upper class" in most of the world. We all have nice cars, plenty of food, nice houses, medical coverage, most of us have computers, microwaves, hot and cold running water, all the electricity we could want, and a two week vacation every year. Sure we still have bills, and may find it hard to foot some of them from time to time, but we are not in any way underprivileged. I'd rather see a country be as successfull as we are even if it's based on a shitty form of government than see a country that is based on an ideal form of government where people are as poor as dirt.

And Chrissy, I have read the Communist Manifesto. There has yet to be a government set up that follows it to the letter, and in today's world I don't think it would work at all because the world is so different.

I personally am not a Republican, a Democrat, a Communist, or belong to any other party. Each has it's good points and its shortcomings. I prefer to stay out of politics because none of the political groups I have seen are all that great.

I know I'm rambling a bit here, and I apologize, but it's been like 48 hours since I've slept. Hopefully you'll be able to make some sense of all this.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Jennifer Harding (1998), Sex Acts: Practices of Femininity and Masculinity, Sage, London

Judith Butler Gender Trouble
< http://cgi.student.nada.kth.se/cgi-bin/d95-aeh/get/foucaulteng#constructivism >

(That last link is really good on where I get my ideas about sexuality and gender being socially constructed)
These links arent about the stratification in society but argues against the idea of naturalism.

Have fun.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

However, if you are interested in reading them and can get to your local library etc (i doubt any of you will do this) but if you are interested I will gladly give you the author and journal (plus volume # and issue #) for you to go and read them on yer own time.

Just let me know if you are interested.
=)

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

Maybe in a few hundred years, when humans have evolved into more advanced, sophisticated beings, the idea of us all being able to unite together in a positive global cause will be more realistic. But we are far from that right now. Don't get me wrong, communism was a good idea in theory... I don't think that Karl Marx would have got as much attention as he did if it WASN'T an interesting idea... Heck, I wear a Che Guevera shirt to school sometimes...

But back to the topic... how can you say that it worked in Russia? I would say that any system of government that led to the deaths of millions of their own citizens was not successful. Yes, the purges. I know that most of that was due to a cruel and innefective leader, but how about the violent crushings of the so-called Hungarian and Czechoslovakian "uprisings" During the 1950's and 1960's? Now, many say that just because it didn't work in Russia may not mean it won't work anywhere else. True, but lets be honest- taking a look at all the communist nations of the world, past and present, the track record of communism doesn't look too good.

Those are the problems I have with communism. If someone can figure out solutions, I would love to hear them.

Oh yeah, by the way. I would not say that Canada is "Almost entirely socialist". We have publicly funded healthcare and education systems, but we employ most every aspect of the market economy in some form or another. Canada (in general) believes in free trade, the benefit of business development, and the idea that there are people who will always have more than others. Really, Canada believes in most of the basic fundamental principles that the United States do. I think most of us would like to think that we implement them better, though, and use ideas from other countries to complement them.

France in general is a MUCH more socialist country than Canada.

Just my 2.38 CDN cents.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

[This message has been edited by Chrissy (edited June 23, 2000).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Firefox:
Maybe in a few hundred years, when humans have evolved into more advanced, sophisticated beings, the idea of us all being able to unite together in a positive global cause will be more realistic.

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What makes you think we will evolve into more sophisticated beings? The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if we reverted back to the dark ages.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

I think this issue all boils down to the meaning of life from each persons point of view. The meaning of my life is ME being happy. I think everybody feels the same way here. But fact is, that I cannot be happy if my friends aren't. And I cannot be happy if I hurt other people. The feeling of guilt is different from person to person, but I think it will always influence life in a negative way.

This brings me to the capitalism subject. Capitalism is about competing to get money. Only the winners will get happy. The losers will get unhappy. This means that a great ammount of people will be unhappy, and the people that are happy will soon get unhappy for making other people unhappy. This doesn't seem well. (This is if everyone was as me).

Then the communism. Earlier someone mentioned the Marx statement about everybody being equal, though infact we aren't. You've misinterpreted it I think. Off course no one is the same in the meaning of physics, but in our minds we all carry the same goal. About being happy. In order for everyone to be happy you have to have everyone set up as equal, as everyone deserves the same amount of happiness. So in order for everyone to be happy we have to help each other being happy.

But as the world looks today, only very few people are truly happy. (If any). Maybe it's in our nature fighting each other, but why should we let it be that way? Don't misunderstand me here. I'm quite happy as I've got a girlfriend that I love and that loves me back even if I fuck up. But when I see the starving people in Afrika I feel guilty just for eating. But if I had helped them with all my heart maybe it wouldn't feel so bad. (I'm not better than the rest of the world. I play along as the ball keeps coming). Now if everybody wasn't so selfcentered as everybody are these days the world would be a nice place to be. Tho' I don't believe in god, I've read the bible and I fully support it as a codex of life. And I think that the only way for everyone to be happy at the same time is remembering the 7 (6...I'm not sure about gluttony) deadly sins.

So the only possible ways of true happiness would be forms of either communism or anarchy. The 2 extremes. But if we want our race to go somewhere (space maybe) communism is the only way.

Maybe it's kind of a too simple way of seeing it, but that's the way my head works Simple good, triple integrals in fluid calculations bad.

kolben, good reasoning. if everyone got happy off helping other people and felt guilty when they saw starving africans, this world would be a better place and communism might work.

unfortunately, i am the opposite, and i feel, the majority party. when i see those starving people in africa, i feel nothing. i have been numbed. this isn't society's fault or my parent's; i have chosen not to care. it makes me unhappy when i'm guilty, so i'm not. i have a conscience, but only when i actively do a bad thing to someone and see the consequences. if i can't see the consequences, i don't feel much guilt if i do at all.

also, i don't like helping people i don't know. i would take a bullet for a couple of my close, personal friends, but i would push a stranger in front of me if given half the chance.

something else that pisses me off that i'm thinking of right now: it sucks that a lot of getting into college is community service and free work and shit. i work for money or i don't work. simple as that. kind of ironic that the main reason to go to college is to get more money, but to get there you have to do a lot of pro bono (sp?) crap.

back on track. i am selfish as hell when i comes to money in any sort of large amount. once again, i will lend out almost anything to good friends, but if you're not, you might as well save your breath.

this is not to say i am an immoral person. i don't have many vices, try not to take advantage of people, and if in the mood will help out my fellow human being. but it has to be sort of personal. if you're in the same parking lot as me and you're battery is dead, i'll give you a jump. it's sort of personal because i can actually see you in trouble in real life.

people like me are why communism can't work, and we will always exist. you can't force idealism on people, what we believe is what we belive. the only way to do it would be to ingrain it into little kid's minds. and anyone read brave new world? gets scary.

That said, what all of us want to see is a world where we are all happy and no one suffers. But the since we aren't likely to ever see this idealistic world, what we can do now is make the best of what we have. The only current government/system in which this is possible (Based on what I have seen) is a capitalistic system. It's true that in a capitalistic system there is competition, but this can be a very healthy thing. Many of the advances in technology, and almost all of life's little comforts we enjoy today are the result of this competition. And while some people get very wealthy from it, it doesn't mean that the rest of us get poorer. The total wealth is increasing, so most of us stand to profit in some way from this competition.

Think about it this way: in our communist regime, each person will have about the same level of comfort whether they work hard or not, due to the idea of redistributing wealth. There is little inovation, and general state of the populace is not likely to improve, but rather decline as population increases. Also, the few people that work harder are disappointed because they still get the same rewards for their work as people who just sit around and due nothing. The only way to get everyone to contribute is through some type of motivation, which is completely lacking. In our capitalist country, however, we have companies competing against each other to sell goods to the most people. They must be innovative, or they will lose their market share to other companies that are more innovative than they are. They must provide a good product, or people aren't likely to buy it. And they must manufacture or produce it with as little cost as possible so they can maintain their profit margins. New methods, new products, with each generation in some way improving over the previous generation. So the companies make enough money to keep their workers fairly well paid, while producing products that cost less of our hard-earned cash, and thus everyone is happy.

Before you complain about our current system in America, take the time to consider how much better your life is today than it might have been as a result of the free enterprise system.

Then do your best to come up with ideas to improve on our current government, but don't forget to include in your theories the selfish nature of man.

My stance is that currently the best governments in the world are capitalist governments based on what I've seen. The best government in theory would be a true communism, but I doubt very much that it could be implemented properly due to our selfish nature.

Feel free to disagree with me. I don't take it personally. Most people do, anyways.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

And ont also had a recession due to the ND fucking P but thanx to mike harris we have recovered nicely, oh to be from alberta!

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Where is that tubby bitch??

Everyone's ideas are EXCELLENT!!!

Now on to the debate.
I agree capitalism fosters competition and competition fosters new technology etc etc etc. Now communism doesn't "inhibit" competition per se- it just means that whatever product you come up with then belongs to the goverment so that EVERYONE can use it on an equal footing.

Example- someone invents a machine which allows you to do complex calculations, write letters, and chat with others all from the comfort of your own home. Now instead of limiting this access to just those who could "afford" it- it would be available to ALL. The competition would be there but it wouldnt be for monetry/materialistic gain but for the betterment of society.

Yes its idealistic (ive conceeded this point to you people many times)- but whats wrong with idealism?
=P

BTW did anyone read those sites I mentioned?

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

nothing advances past dos and the internet never even gets close to its potential. you can write a paper and play a couple of games, but you CAN'T talk to other people through the machine. the amazing exhange of ideas that we now think of as commonplace is stifled just because the inventors of this machine had no incentive to take the product further. all the glory goes to the state, with all the common people not even knowing what they have missed out on. they're just happy they don't have to use typewriters.

Commumism, the way I see it, is sharing everything in general. No personal property. It is all owned by the "public". Why this won't work is people fundemental don't want to share things. Jesus Christ was a commumist he said we should share all with our neighbor and community. This was said roughly 2000 yrs ago. People can't share things today 2000 years later more then ever.
I love my "family" computer. I hate when others use it and screw it up. It is mine if you steal it I will kill you. Most people here would agree with me on this. It sucks to share a computer. People want things they call there own. This is mine. That is yours etc. While it is nice to be a Christian or a Roman Catholic we can't really share everything in general.
That bastard bill gates have assets of 70 to 100billion I want his money. millions of people want his money. you think he is not going to give up his money without a fight. Many people have spent their lifetimes and their family generations before them to build up their personal wealth. They should be allowed to keep it and not give it out to lazy unempolyed jerkoffs. I am not wealthy i am a working middle class male but i know it is better to work hard and try to make a living them mooch off others. Thus i am not a communist.
You should aslo rememeber as others have mentioned that when they first implement commumism thousands of farmers who were told in the urkaine that their farms would be "public" land burned their farms and killed their livestock rather than share it and give it away. You know why? They had worked their lives to build that farm and someone now is telling them they can "work on their own land" but it is not really their land just the "publics". And it is going to be divided up so they are going to lose parts of their farm and animals. That bullshit.
And you think those in "public" office are going to adminster the land, money, food, jobs etc equally here in the us or in russia? That is insane. Our politicans already steal so so damn much. Y
ou are giving them the card blanche with commumism. You don't think they are not going to get a wee bit greedy and try to keep some for themselves.
No one. REPEAT NO ONE ON EARTH GIVING THE US'S WEALTH OF THE PEOPLE WOULD DISTRIBUTE IT EQUALLY. you think you could distribute it equally?
You think everyone is going to be happy with what they are given? Hell no. People fight over insane things, with there neighbors you think they are going to just take what you give them? No people also want more more more more.
That is human nature. Why are we right now as a race of people world wide pushing for faster and faster computers, cars, better phones, lives, mates, sex, music, software, etc on and on. Humans are never satified with what we have. We always want more and though you would say is just our captialist socitey causes this and once removed people will agree, is insanity. Where do you think people get there drive to live? everyone wants to improve their standard of living so they push themselves forward for more progress. They live to get more not less. That is why and where most people get there drive to live. Without progress there is nothing. We are at a standstill and people hate that. Commumism is a standstill. It is not progress. Man in not created equal.
Individuals will always rise above others.
What do you with them in a commumist society reward them for being good in helping the "public" right?! Sure. Well after a while they will amass these rewards (money) and captialism will emerge.
People want to stand out. They want to show they are individuals, that they are differnet.
People want capitalism they want to move forward and progress. If you think not then reply to me on a typewriter and not your computer. See my point. COmmumism is not the peoples choice. Captialism just works.
And remember some people by nature rise above their fellow man, therefore they should be rewarded, while the slackers should not. Captialism does just this, Rewards the hardworking, punishs the lazy.
Think about it. Remember we live on earth not in a text book manual. Thanks I wait your reply young woman .

You all think of this as "1-2-3-SNAP-Communism"...Big badass miltarymen comming to your doorstep, takes your computer and hands it over to the neighbour. That's the way some communists ARE planning on "changing the world". My father inclusively But the communism can't be implemented in one generation. Not even in 10 I think...The reason why it's hard to implement is that we have to loose that possesiveness the human has today. This is done over a long period of time, taking one step at a time. So noone will loose their stuff, but rather die and someone needy will take it over.

About the work thing. You say some people are lazy when it comes to working. True, but notice the word ARE. If society is changed towards communism people would start not being lazy, because their neighbours/friends/whatever would kick their asses and get them going. And they wouldn't get people to love them, which is very important for every human , I guess.

My dream (hehe) is that we will end up with a society that didn't contain money. Now you all panic and say: "How do we buy stuff then?". But fact is that you don't. You just take the stuff you need and nothing more. And if you work harder than the guy next door you wouldn't be paid more (as no money is around), but people would look at you and go: "Wow, we like this guy" and you'd probably end up with a lot of friends and girls admiring you. (Feel free to switch sexes in the above)

I saw that Star Trek movie "Insurrection" and went out of the theater going "why the hell aren't we like that". What's our rush? Why do we compete, when all we compete about is who posseses the most. Maybe I should've posted this in the quotes section, as I feel that it's one of the best I've heard:

"When you create a machine to do the mans work, you take something away from the man".

I completely agree...but in my oppinion we can still build machines, to speed up the work towards our "goal?", as long as we still work ourselves. No one would live without working. Maybe for a month or a year, but it'd very soon become very tiresome and you'd quickly find something to do. Why do you think people have hobbies? My grandfather collected stamps when he wasn't on the job. It's kind of a meaningless thing to do, but it's still something to do. He couldn't do my grandmother all the time...

Here is a concept/a thought/a crazy idea I've had for a while:
Help someone do something by the terms, that for you to help him, he had to help someone else, by the same terms. I'd like to see how far it'd go...

[This message has been edited by Kolben (edited June 25, 2000).]

There is some rather isolated tribe in Africa that I saw an interesting documentary on PBS about: they have no word for mine in their language, only Ours, and they are some of the most contented people on earth. They have a true form of communism. However, when they were discovered by western man and introduced to some of the wonders of modern technology, they've started to lose the community way of life. I don't remember all the details, but I remember when I saw it, I thought "Those people really have the best form of government." And they didn't really have any government at all. Just traditions passed on from generation to generation that no one even thought to question.

Unfortunately, I believe we have traveled down a different road, and have gone too far to turn around, at least not without a lot of help. Where we will get that help, I have no idea.

I know that some of you don't believe in God, and I respect that. But whether you do or don't, I suggest you read the Bible some time, regardless of your religious beliefs or lack thereof, as there is a lot of truth in it. (And it makes for a good read as well.) There are some excellent ideas for government in it, as well as a lot of just plain common sense, something people seem to be lacking these days.

Yes, Chrissy, I did start to look at one of those pages you linked to. When I'm done, I'll let you know what I thought of them.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellraiser:
What makes you think we will evolve into more sophisticated beings? The way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if we reverted back to the dark ages.

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Wow, way too many intesting comments to discuss, so I'll try to keep it brief...

Hellraiser, I know that your point of view is valid. Still, I think we have to say that we are more or less moving forward. Compare the average standard of living of a person today with a person 100 years ago. Sure, there are still TONS of people living in poverty. But the bottom line is that, more or less, it is improving and things are getting at least a little better.

Next topic- I think I agree that the way humans are structured in essense prevents communism from ever really coming to bear. To that extent, many of us are getting "better" too, willing to help others more than before. However, that only goes so far. I doubt even the most devoted humanitarians in the world would be willing to give up absolutely everything they have for someone they really don't know at all. And even if SOME people were ready to do this, the vast majority wouldn't.

Finally, I think AnimalPrime has a good point that the Canadian system of SociCapitalism (his words ) is one of the best options we have these days. I think that social welfare is important to those that truly need it to get a boost back onto their feet, or to help them in times of unexpected need. However, I do not believe in a system where those who truly work hard for their success are expected (and required) to give large portions of what they have to those that are not truly in need, and simply do not want the burden of putting in the effort to increase their standard of living. Sadly, I think that Canada is moving away from the healthy balance we have of Social Welfare and Market Economy Politics, and towards a much more unbalanced and unsubstainable system of rabid overspending and debt.

This is why I personally feel that a new political party needs to form the government in Canada as soon as possible, before our country moves even further away from what makes it successful. But I will try not to bore you with Canadian politics, so I digress.

-FFox

Ignorance is Bliss

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

Imagine if every country had a commumunist, the morals and mentality would be quite different. We would have other goals in life than making the most money, and hacking the most secure system. It would be more like developing the idea of a good life and developing teamwork. I believe in communism once it's here, but I don't believe in implementing it. The only thing a can think of, is teaching your kids a slightly different moral, and make them teach their kids a slightly different moral, and so on. Because it's too difficult changing our own morals. We're messed up. We're broken. We are inhuman. But our kids can be saved hehe

[This message has been edited by Kolben (edited June 28, 2000).]

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

It has to be a social wave. A massive awareness of shared consciousness if you will. A goal for humanity needs to be defined. Something to bring us together as a group. something to make us aware that the individual is not as important as "must see TV" or "beach house dance party on MTV" has led us to believe.

There are so many factors right now against a communist way. Even a socialist way is not prudent. Unstable economics. third world nuclear arsenal. and on and on and on.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

And that's really the biggest (as I see it) problem with American "democracy." The ideal of the people selecting the best leader is flawed. It's too easy to alter who the people really chose. You can have more advertising err campaigning or you can outright buy votes; then, afterwards, you can rig the ballots (isn't that historically how the mayor of NY was chosen?). So it becomes impossible for anyone to know if anyone honestly won, unless you assume everyone is dishonest and follow suit. Then, if you actually make it into power, you want to stay there. That involves more money, which involves selling out. And I'd say that selling out is much more America's pasttime than baseball. Any form of representative government will have these problems.

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It's a dog eat dog world; I'll do what I have to and let others argue whether it's right or not. Calvin of Calvin and Hobbes

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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.

[This message has been edited by Firefox (edited July 02, 2000).]

quote:

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Originally posted by syf0n:
I think a really good thing for eveyone who has been posting to this thread to do is listen to a comedy bit by George Carlin called "Golf Courses for the Homeless" (don't worry it's a good thing, not an insult)...

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I listened to that golf courses for the homeless bit. It's interesting- George Carlin sounds like the antithesis of Denis Leary. They have similar senses of humor, but are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. While what George Carlin said was funny, some of it isn't all that accurate. I enjoyed his rant on how the only black people you find at golf courses are carrying clubs- Obviously, though, he didn't do enough research- hasn't he ever heard of a few no-names such as "TIGER WOODS" or "VIJAY SINGH"?

Well, that was just a bit of my counter rant I guess. I found his graveyard idea amusing, but let's face it- we have traditions, some of which we like to keep. Just because it doesn't make sense, doesn't mean we should abolish it altogheter... like religion. It doesn't always make a whole lot of sense, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of it altoghether (although I am sure some would argue that).

-FFox

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"A christian, an anarchist-slash-prostitute, figures out the true meaning of freedom. Not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart."
-NOFX