yeah right. I lost power this morning thanks to the California Energy Crisis which would have NEVER HAPPENED if the energy market hadn't been deregulated. The power companies always made enough $$$ to turn a profit and we always had electricity.

A couple years ago the Republicans had the bright idea to deregulate the California power grid. When deregulation went into effect, the power companies were forced to sell some of their power plants to encourage competetion. Now the price of electricity is now 10x what it was a couple years ago, because the fast-buck companies that bought the power plants are jerking PG&E around and selling California's electricity to other states so they can make even MORE profits. And the PUC can't do a fucking thing about it.

So the consumer, who was supposed to "benefit" from free competition, is paying thru the nose for something that they aren't even sure they'll have from one minute to the next.

Republicans are fucking morons.

Wait... that was the republicans, right?

I can't believe you are blaming Republicans for something the power company is doing to you.

Jesus age christ.

Go move to a communist company if you want the government to regulate and control every aspect of your life and business.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

---

Originally posted by jim:
Go move to a communist company if you want the government to regulate and control every aspect of your life and business.

---

Ever notice how every time you suggest that the government might do something better than private industry, conservatives call you a "communist" or something similar?

THE COLD WAR IS OVER, YOU MORONS!!!

Seriously. Just because I think that the Mystical Magical Market doesn't always do everything perfectly, and it's BETTER to have public control of some industries, doesn't make me a fucking Communist.

You calling me one does, however, show how fucking dogmatic Republicans are. As the bumper sticker says,

Vote Republican! It's easier than thinking.

Anyway, the problem is NOT a lack of power plants. The problem is that PG&E and Southern California Edison were forced- by REPUBLICAN LEGISLATION, mind you- to sell off their power plants to other companies to foster "competition." These companies are now selling the power back to PG&E and SoCal Edison at ridiculously inflated prices (about Ũ.30/kWh). The deregulations laws PROHIBIT PG&E / SoCal Edison from increasing their prices, so they have to sell power to us at about 1/3 of their cost. Because of that, they're going bankrupt, and because they're going bankrupt, the new fast-buck power companies are refusing to sell electricity to them, and are instead selling it to other states.

My state is not getting fucked by the two big power companies. We're getting fucked by the fast-buck greedheads that run the power plants. And all because Republicans are so fucking moronic that they think "THE MARKET" is the magical solution to everything, and anyone who disagrees with them is a communist who wants Big Brother looking over their shoulder, 'cause Lord knows you can't have some regulation, it's all-or-nothing and thinking otherwise is un-American blah blah blah.

In all honesty, I sincerly wish you would all fuck off and die. Let the intelligent people run things around here.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on January 18, 2001 at 06:17 PM

they deregulated the fuck out of power in pennsylvania. choose your supplier, lower rates, the whole deal. except that we don't have so many DEMOCRAT enacted environmental restrictions that nobody can produce affordable electricity.

you can cry yourself all the rivers you want about how much the republicans have fucked up your life, but remember this. the democrats are the ones who have made it illegal to put up nuclear power plants, hydroelectric dams, burn fossil fuel, cut down trees, and they grab land millions of acres at a time to set it aside and "protect" it from the citizens who should rightfully be allowed to use it.

regulated, deregulated, it doesn't matter. if it costs a billion dollars to produce electricity because of all the enviornmental hoops the company has to jump through to do it, guess what? you're gonna suffer from a POWER SHORTAGE.

and as far as saying 'Vote Republican! It's easier than thinking.' how the hell is that any different from the other side calling you a communist?

don't bash someone for slinging insults at the same time YOU sling insults. it only serves to make you look like a giant fucking hypocrite.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
your state is getting fucked because it's california, the one true bastion of bed-wetting bunny-hugging tree-fucking hippies.

---

Now thats not nice. Its bed-wetting, tree-hugging bunny-fucking hippy freaks. you had it sdrawkcab.

Lets see what gov does for our power needs. Can't build any more nuke plants because there might be an accident and there is no place to put the waste. They cut the funding into the Fusion research so no free/clean/safe power from seawater. They let companys sit on tech that would save power/gas/oil so they can make more money (oil companys have more patents for electric cars than the car companys).
im guessing my point is its not a party of goverment but the entire thing that causes problems.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Now I know most Oregonians dont care too much for California...this does not help matters much. There is talk about putting the old "welcome to Oregon sign" back up.

It used to say "Welcome to Oregon. Have a nice visit, but please dont stay." This was only on the boarder with CA.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
my gripe with hippies is that they contradict themselves. they say they want clean power that doesn't pollute, but then they bash nuclear power and say that it's unsafe.

---

why is it that people that care about environmental issues are automatically hippies? Last time I checked I didn't have long hair or wear Birkenstocks or tye-die...

but Catknight's correct when he says that the biggest problem with nuclear plants is that they are too expensive. The reason they're too expensive is because of all the liability issues :

- in order to run, the plant needs a source of enriched uranium. That uranium has to be transported to the plant, and it needs to be transported VERY carefully. If enriched uranium gets out into the environment it is going to be there poisoning EVERYTHING around it for ten thousand years. And a nuclear power plant needs several TONS of this stuff.

So you've got a situation where you need to transmit thousands of pounds of a extremely toxic, radioactive substance that not only has the capability to render part of the environment unfit for life for thousands of years, but can also be turned into an atomic bomb if it falls into the wrong hands.

- The radiation in the core of a nuclear reactor is enough to kill a human being in minutes. It also corrodes the metal and concrete used to contain it. And if there is a core breach, you've just leaked a bunch of toxic, radioactive material to the outside world.

- After the uranium is used up, it is still toxic and radioactive and will remain so for a long time. So you need transport it again, and you need a place to store it for a few thousand years.

And if there is failure in ANY part of this process, you've got massive contamination that is almost impossible to clean up.

Most conservatives don't give a damn about any of this scorched-earth shit until they find out that the uranium is going to be running near THEIR city. Then they're suddenly concerned.

Anyway, you can probably imagine all the FINANCIAL liability nuclear power plants entail. That's why nobody wants to build one.

As for environmental regulations on other power plants, they actually don't cost a lot of money to comply with. In some cases, they can actually save money, as when a power company keeps their generators etc. in tip-top shape in order to reduce pollution - their generators run more efficiently, so they get more $$$ per unit of fuel. Beyond that, it's not all that expensive to add the necessary scrubbers etc. to keep your exhaust clean.

What DOES cost a lot of money is finding a place to build the thing. Environmental laws don't contribute much to that problem. They rarely stop anyone from building somewhere. What DOES cause a huge problem is that people don't want a power plant in their back yard, because it will lower their property values.

And finally, kuru, if I said Republicans are fascist and racist, that would be similar to them calling me a Communist. In both cases someone is making an incorrect and misleading statement about someone else's political views, and in both cases it's an opinion/insult masquerading as a fact.

Calling them "stupid" is different, because it is OBVIOUSLY an opinion and not a fact. For that matter it SHOWS my liberal bias very clearly. I like well thought out opinions, not ones based on tradition and dogma.

And finally, I have never known a liberal to jump out of a car and try to beat the shit out of someone for their bumper sticker. But at least once a week some moron has to roll his window down or jump out of his car and try and pick a fight with me because I have a bumper sticker that says "If there is a devil, he votes Republican."

'nuff said.

enriched uranium is transported in rods as uranium hexafluride, and is completely safe

they dont have to transport tons of it, just the refueling rods every 1-2 years.

the radiation in the core of a reactor is not enough to kill a person in minutes (unless something was wrong with it)

if there was an accident radiation would not be released to the outside world, it is contained in the reactor building. contamination of the enviroment is minimal.

as far as the enriched uranium that is transported, far more of it than you will ever be aware of is going by on trains day and night. i don't recall ever having heard of an accident on a train transporting enriched uranium (and you know that would be all over the news.)

the only two nuclear power accidents EVER were directly caused by human error. chernobyl by operators and scientists who intentionally ignored every error and warning message they got, and specifically shut down all the safety systems to see 'how far' they could push the reactor. and then there's three mile island, which employed all ex-military people and was run like a military chain of command. something went wrong, and one of the supervisors wasn't there to approve corrective action. the operator, instead of taking the steps he knew would fix the problem, did what his training said to do... wait for the commanding officer.

the odds of getting cancer from living next to a nuclear reactor for 50 years are 1 in 1 million. the odds of there being an accident are slim, especially if qualified trained people run the plant and have permission to take any corrective action should a problem arise.

nuclear reactors are water-cooled. radiation doesn't leak outside the reactor core, it doesn't 'corrode' the pipes and the core itself. granted, after a few years of having atoms smash into the walls of the core, it's going to have some wear and tear. but these things are fixed, with no damage to the pipes that cool it.

the water in those pipes has a couple of uses. you could, like penn state university, allow that water to cool and use it as drinking water througout your campus. or as in the case of a few russian ractors, use the heated water as a source of heat for an entire town. the byproduct of their electrical generation is enough hot water to heat every home in the town. pretty nice, huh? really cuts down on those energy needs, and there are no fossil fuels involved.

oh, and about that radiation that's gonna kill us all, play with a geiger counter sometime. there's already radiation all around us and inside us. better find out just how much the radiation level is gonna increase if you transport a train full of enriched uranium rods packed in containers designed to last 1,000 years.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
The reason they're too expensive is because of all the liability issues

---

I am not particularly opposed to nuclear power plants. As a general rule, they're no worse for the environment than fossil fuel plants, and in some ways they're superior.

I was pointing out the specific liabilities that go hand in hand with building and operating a nuclear plants - and while I may be wrong about the radiation in the core killing someone in minutes, it IS very high and it DOES cause things to corrode. Eventually something is going to go wrong.

For most plants, the worst-case scenario is that something will break and you'll get a small radiation leak, which will probably be less harmful to the public at large than a day of breathing smog. But ANY release of radiation is going to get the power company swamped with lawsuits which they will almost certainly lose. Do you really think a jury is going to care that the total radiation released in a year from the plant / storage side / trains / whatever isn't enough to even warm a hamburger?

No. They're going to side with the poor lady who's dying of cancer, even though her cancer has NOTHING to do with the power plant.

That was my point. I guess it wasn't very clear.

Anyway, what we really need is a way to make cheap and efficient solar panels. On a good day you can get something like 1 Watt / square inch... if your roof was made out of them, you'd have more than enough electricity to run your house, assuming you had some sort of storage mechanism.

damien-the radiation from the reactor does not cause it to eventually corrode and cause an accident.

------------------
Spydir Web - spydirweb@techie.com
Core Arctic - < http://welcome.to/CoreArctic/ >

Oh and by the way, whoever said that adding new scrubbers to fossil fuel plants is cheap does not know what they are talking about. It's a very expensive project, and still does not completely eliminate the gross amounts of polution released by these plants. For instance, according to a documentary I saw on PBS, it is no longer safe to eat fish from Lake Michigan due to mercury poisoning from polution released from coal power plants in the midwest collecting in the lake over the past decades.

------------------
Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

Who holds the power now, bitches?! (pun intended)
Bahahah
(sorry, I had to get back at all the American trashing of Canada )

I'm in BC, we have power coming out our asses. We used to sell a good deal of our power to the states, mostly California. But we've recently stopped, due to the fact that we were getting fucked on the prices etc.
We still sell natural gas down to the states though. That pisses me off, due to the fact that if we didn't, our natural gas prices might not have risen 300\% in the past year.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

and uranium IS transferred often. nuclear power reactors are NOT the only use of uranium. there's constant research at many, many universities...... there's weapons research by the government. there's los alamos in and of itself. and it's not like there only refueling ONE reactor in this country every couple of years.

the chernobyl accident happened when a reactor scheduled for testing had all of its safety systems shut off. chernobyl was an RBMK reactor, water was used as a thermal transfer for the generation of electric power, and is graphite moderated. the test began on april 25, 1986, started by operators and engineers who did not properly check that the reactor had previous problems. the test was to determine how long the reactor turbine-generator's rotating mass would continue to rotate and keep producing power after the steam was shut off. the test was scheduled to take place during a routine plant shutdown for maintenence. at 14:00 zulu, a call from kiev was placed from the kiev power dispatch controller to tell the plant to maintain output to supply an unexpected power demand.

this would've meant postponing the test. the operators had, in preparation for the test, disconnected the emergency core-cooling system, so that power consumption would not affect test results.

the control device had not been properly programmed to maintain power in the critical range of 700 to 1000 MW. at 23:10 zulu, the plant was authorized to reduce power, output dropped to 30 MW, and made the reactor very difficult to control.

instead of shutting down, the operators attempted to keep the test going, and raised control rods in an effort to increase power. instead of leaving the required 15 control rods inserted, they raised almost all of the rods, as the fuel had become poisoned by xenon-135, which was absorbing the neutrons.

the power output then leveled off at 200 MW, far below the critical safe range the operators needed. circulating pumps were then turned on to join the pumps already in operation. because the circumstances were not normal, it required manual adjustments to control the balance of steam and water.

the operators now realized that because of the buildup of xenon, if they shut down, it would take a long time to start up again. they decided to proceed with the test, and blocked emergency signals and shutdown controls because they would be activated by a removal of the electrical load.

at 01:23, the steam valves were closed and the reactor load was removed. the power and temperature rose sharply, allowing fission to increase. this raised output from 7\% of normal, to hundreds of times its rated thermal output.

the fuel did not have any time to melt, and instead shattered. this shattering caused the fuel to come in contact with the water inside the reactor.

a second explosion lifed a 1000 ton concrete floor pad, and separated the reactor from the refueling area above. the zirconium cladding of the fuel rods interacted with the circulating water, and the reaction produced hydrogen. the hydrogen touched off another explosion, which finished off the plant and drove up a radioactive plume miles high.

that is the bad decision making and human error that caused the chernobyl accident. calling off the test due to the increased demand from kiev, or simply shutting down the reactor when they had the chance would have prevented the loss of life and radiation poisoning that still plagues the area.

btw, i did not make this information up. you can read it yourself in ethics in engineering by martin and schinzinger (1996) or managing the risks of organizational accidents by James Reason (1997).

get better sources, people.

* edit corrected spelling error
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

This message has been edited by kuru on January 20, 2001 at 05:02 AM

your sis goes to psu? awesome! we gotta hook up!! (i'm being serious, i'd love to meet mini-kuru hehe)

oh yeah forgot to comment about the reactor water thing-the only water in the reactor building is in the swimming pool sized reactor bath, which is where the actual reactor core is. the pool keeps it cool. they do not use that water for anything else. i don't know if the water itself is radioactive but i doubt it would be safe to drink.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on January 19, 2001 at 10:06 PM

you want a dangerous fuel? hydrogen is it.

hydrogen oxygen fuel is what is used in the space shuttle. you get some heat where it doesn't belong, and you have a fireworks display. ask the seven astronauts who died on the challenger because a 1/8" diameter piece of rubber failed to keep hot gases from the solid rocket boosters from superheating the outside of the external liquid hydrogen liquid oxygen fuel tank.

ask the hundred-odd people who died on the hindenberg because someone thought it would be a good idea to fly derrigables hydrogen filled (they use helium in blimps now, helium is inert and doesn't burn.)

i'll stick to fossil fuels, and gasoline to run my car. solar technology is nowhere near as it should be, recharge times are LONG, vehicle speeds are low, and range is poor. it also works for shit unless there's a period of sun in the day time. around where i live, it's gray most of the time. not enough sun to charge a battery.

batteries in and of themselves are extremely heavy. having a larger one requires more power to make up for the weight difference. battery drain also occurs whether you use the power or not, a battery does not hold a charge indefinitely.

gasoline may not be perfect, but it's the best we have for cars.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

This message has been edited by kuru on January 20, 2001 at 05:03 AM

and as for your sister being a blonde mall chick, i guess i'll never know who she is since there's about 10,000 of em here. :P

damien-tritum is not found in nature. it is very expensive to produce and it decays on it's own. i think the half-life is something like 12 years.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on January 20, 2001 at 07:38 PM

That's more or less the story given by (some) businesses and conservatives every time some new environmental law is proposed. 99\% of the time it winds up being relatively easy to implement, the businesses crow about their "dedication to the environment" in their ads, the air gets cleaner, and the price of whatever goods are affected by the law barely increases at all.

Like the California smog requirements for cars... back in the late 60's and early 70's, the automotive industry made it sound like it would cost more to build a compliant car than a 747. In the end, it wound up cutting emissions to something like 1/10th of what they were and raising the price around 贄. If you ever see some pictures of LA in the late 60's, take note of how much smog there is. My grandparents can remember being surprised on days when the sky was blue, because it was usually gray or yellow.

No, scrubbers and other environmental regulations don't completely solve the problem. This is sometimes used as a reason to abandon them altogether, which seems to me like saying "well, this medicine might triple my chances but it doesn't GUARANTEE my survival, so what the point of taking it?"

Interesting info on Chernobyl, Kuru. Someone fucked up in a big way over there. From what I understand, newer power plants are designed so that no matter how much you defeat the safety systems, if the reactor core gets too hot the whole thing shuts down on its own. I forget the exact details of how it works, but it's based on gravity - if the core gets too hot, it melts something or other that is holding the control rods up, causing the rods to drop into the core and shut it down completely.

What we really need is fusion. Fusion is slick, and theoretically pretty safe. It requires super-high temperatures, so the whole process has to take place inside a magnetic containment field to keep the temperature high enough. If the field fails, the fuel temperature drops and the reaction stops almost instantly. Absolute worst case scenario is the container cracks from the pressure, leaking hydrogen and helium.

catknight - deuterium and tritium are extracted from water, which is where the whole "fusion's fuel is plain old seawater" thing comes from. Deuterium (hydrogen-2)occurs naturally as an isotope of hydrogen; I think it's something like 2\% by weight. If I recall correctly, tritium (hydrogen-3) is so rare in nature that it's usually synthesized by bombarding deuterium with neutrons. I could be wrong though.

Until we can harness fusion, it's all about the solar cell / fuel cell combo. The solar cells produce electricity during the day. Spare electricity is used to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, which are then stored so that at night they can be recombined in a fuel cell, turning them back into water. With some decent engineering you could make the fuel cell a closed system, requiring little or no maintenance... just stick it in the sun and enjoy free electricty.

Some < Swatch watches > contain tritium.

< Tritium > is formed in some nuclear reactors that use heavy water (D2O). Its decay product is helium-3.

The biggest danger from tritium exposure is that the tritium is ingested and becomes part of a molecule. When the tritium decays, the helium atom detaches from the molecule, causing the molecule to become ionized.

I want some to play with... 2 parts tritium, one part oxygen, and a match would produce some radioactive water good for bottling and giving to your enemies

edit : grammar

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on January 20, 2001 at 06:26 PM

this is due to the fact that a liquid (like liquid hydrogen cannot explode because anything that explodes must already be in ionized form)

that's why i put that little bit in there about the hindenberg. they used GASEOUS hydrogen to float the thing, and one odd spark is all it takes to ignite a huge quantity of gaseous hydrogen. i guess mr. nuclear physicist never took high school chemistry.

hydrogen is safe, yeah, if you keep it completely contained inside a sealed container that has no exposure to heat. otherwise, hydrogen, the element, is the MOST combustive material in existence. it's not 'just as safe as gasoline' and it doesn't have the 'likelihood of dirt' to combust.

but, hey, if you don't believe me... fill up a tank of hydrogen, put it in your car, and get in an accident. you'll probably become a charred little brother to the hindenberg.

btw, askheaves says hello

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

second, hydrogen cars dont burn hydrogen for fuel, they chemically react in a fuel cell.

it requires more then a 'little bit of heat' to start combusting hydrogen. it takes a spark or a flame. just as much as it takes to ignite gasoline.

The Hindenberg is hardly a fair analogy. Think about filling a blimp with propane... would you want to be anywhere near it? Yet tons of propane are transported every day and it's pretty rare we have any massive catastrophe from it. It's true that hydrogen is more flammable than gasoline, but I'm pretty sure propane has more energy by volume than hydrogen does.

There are also alternatives to using hydrogen in a fuel cell. Cars may well use methanol instead. It has roughly the same amount of energy by weight, and is much less flammable. The drawback is that it produces CO2 and water, whereas hydrogen fuel cells would only produce water.

Beyond that, fuel cells and electric motors are *much* more efficient than internal combustion engines. With good engineering, you might get an energy conversion rate (chemical energy to kinetic energy) of 80\% in a fuel cell powered car. Internal combustion engines average 20-30\%. You have to carry less energy around to do the same thing, meaning that a hydrogen-powered car would produced less of a blast than a gasoline powered one.

Fuel cells are also very light, unlike normal rechargable batteries. Most of the weight comes from the fuel itself. A fuel cell weighing a couple of grams can power a cell phone for two weeks.

Okay, my memory is full...

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:

The Hindenberg is hardly a fair analogy. Think about filling a blimp with propane... would you want to be anywhere near it? Yet tons of propane are transported every day and it's pretty rare we have any massive catastrophe from it. It's true that hydrogen is more flammable than gasoline, but I'm pretty sure propane has more energy by volume than hydrogen does.

---

Interesting thing. The hinderbergs designers implemented a system for releasing hydrogen during an emergency, and it was found, using a miniature scale model, that this system was quite effective. Also, if it had only been the hydrogen burning, the flame of the hindenberg would have been a different colour. No, the real cause of the hindenberg disaster was found to be that the outer canvas layer was coated in something that we now use as solid rocket fuel for the space shuttle (forget it's name) to make them conduct and some of these canvas sheets accidentally became electrically isolated from others. Now, because it was flying through the earths magnetic field, a charge differential grew between these tiles, caused a spark. Boom.

quote:

---

damien_s_lucifer

A fuel cell weighing a couple of grams can power a cell phone for two weeks.

---

and a cell phone uses at most 1/6 watt of energy, when it's in talk mode and is transmitting and receiving actively. it doesn't stay in that mode for 'a couple of weeks' either, it lasts a few hours. and it can take between 4 and 8 hours to recharge.

quote:

---

catknight said

it requires more then a 'little bit of heat' to start combusting hydrogen. it takes a spark or a flame.

---

actually, all it takes is to heat the hydrogen to it's combustion point. it doesn't necessarily have to be exposed to an open flame, or the challenger wouldn't have exploded. liquid or gaseous, hydrogen WILL ignite if exposed to temperatures beyond the combustion point. just like putting a piece of paper into the oven and heating it to above 451°F. just like the processes in steel making that are used in coke ovens to burn the impurities off of the carbon in coal.

and lastly, i won't fuck you.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

and i said fuck you, not fuck me.

quote:

---

actually, all it takes is to heat the hydrogen to it's combustion point. it doesn't necessarily have to be exposed to an open flame, or the challenger wouldn't have exploded. liquid or gaseous, hydrogen WILL ignite if exposed to temperatures beyond the combustion point. just like putting a piece of paper into the oven and heating it to above 451°F. just like the processes in steel making that are used in coke ovens to burn the impurities off of the carbon in coal.

---

your gas tank/fuel tank, whatever, is never going to overheat to the point where it would spontaneously combust.

and there was 'never' going to be a massive accident in a trailer park (saw it on the discovery channel) with propane fuel tanks either. those tanks were 'never' going to be exposed to conditions that would cause them to explode.

they were 'never' going to kill a couple hundred people.

you're supposedly a scientist. you know that 'never' doesn't exist to a scientist.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

your problem kuru is that you are just assuming that you are right and that everyone else is wrong. fuck you. (and don't bother arguing that i'm doing the same thing cuz im not. damien was right about tritum, etc)

where have 300 people ever been killed in a trailor park due to a propane explosion?

show me the collegian artical that says they use reactor water for drinking water.

kuru, a fuel cell isn't like a rechargeable battery. The general principle is this : fuel is mixed with air inside the cell. Using a catalyst to control the reaction, the fuel reacts with oxygen, producing electricity.

< More here. >

The hydrogen WAS exposed to an open flame in the Challenger explosion : the flames coming out the solid-fuel boosters, and the flames from the main engine.

The biggest problem with hydrogen is that it is much more prone to leaking out of a container than propane. But according to the site above, transporting hydrogen is actually SAFER than transporting gasoline.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on January 21, 2001 at 03:30 PM

and you can go search for the article your damn self, mr. attitude.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

damien_s_lucifer
The biggest problem with hydrogen is that it is much more prone to leaking out of a container than propane

---

This is because that the dihydrogen molecule is much smaller than a propane molecule, so it needs smaller holes to leak out of.

quote:

---

damien_s_lucifer
(uranium) but can also be turned into an atomic bomb if it falls into the wrong hands.

---

You need highly enriched uranium to make bombs. I think that its about 63\% U-235. Normal powerplants don't use uranium enriched to this amount.

quote:

---

CatKnight
they dont have to transport tons of it (uranium), just the refueling rods every 1-2 years.

---

For a powerplant, they do have to transport tons of fuel rods. I don't know the time between replenishments though. I think that the Chernobyl reactors had about 30 tons of uranium fuel in the reactors. For research reactors its a different matter. The reactor at Lucas Heights in Sydney has a reactor vessel about 500mm cube, containing a few kilos of uranium.

quote:

---

CatKnight
the reactor at penn state (where i work) doesn't have a coolent loop because it doesn't generate power, it's just for research

---

All reactors need a coolent loop. It is what they do with the coolant that makes the difference. In a powerplant, they use the steam generated to run turbines. In a research reactor, the power output is much smaller, and they just let the water cool.

quote:

---

Hellraiser
While we're on the subject of radiation from power plants, let's not forget that coal power plants release far more radiation into the environment than nuclear plants do

The best power sources - solar energy, wind energy, geothermal energy, etc. - are in abundance around us

---

The same goes for coal and uranium mines. Its basically the radon gas that is the cause of the radiation.

As for harnessing solar energy, physicists at Harvard uni have found a new allotrope of silicon that seems to have amazing properties and could make solar power econmically attractive (NewScientist vol. 2273 pp.34-7)

quote:

---

CatKnight
the only water in the reactor building is in the swimming pool sized reactor bath, which is where the actual reactor core is. the pool keeps it cool. they do not use that water for anything else. i don't know if the water itself is radioactive but i doubt it would be safe to drink.

---

Theres a pool like this in the reactor in Sydney. Its about 8 m deep, and it glows blue. Basically all of the radiation is stopped by the first couple of metres of water, so you could swim in it, if you wanted to.

quote:

---

kuru
otherwise, hydrogen, the element, is the MOST combustive material in existence.

---

Are you talking about elemental or molecular hydrogen? Its a bit hard to make elemental hydrogen, and even harder to keep it that way, it prefers to be dihydrogen.

quote:

---

DuSTman
No, the real cause of the hindenberg disaster was found to be that the outer canvas layer was coated in something that we now use as solid rocket fuel for the space shuttle.

---

Damn, you beat me to it...

quote:

---

kuru
you're supposedly a scientist. you know that 'never' doesn't exist to a scientist.

---

Damn straight! The only thing that exists is probability. You can only say that it is very unlikely that this will happen.

Addressing the question of nuclear waste confinment, there is a bunch of research taking place at Lucas Heights with a product called Synroc. The waste products are actually incoroporated into the crystalline matrix of the confinement media. This makes it alot harder for the waste to leach out. Current confinement is just a covering for the waste. The synroc process is based on the Oklo reactor in Gabon, Africa. There is a natural reactor that was in operation between 2 and 1.8 Ga (2 and 1.8 billion yrs) ago. Studies have shown that over the 1.8 Ga that the waste products have had to move, the furthest that they have got through solid rock is about 10 m.

There is some info about Oklo < here >. There is a bunch of reference if you want to do some of your own reading.

Theres some info about synroc < here >.

------------------
"All is number" - Pythagoras

I just found this site < http://www.ttcorp.com/nha/advocate/ad22zepp.htm >

It says that the Hindenburg fire was caused by electrical discharges igniting the fabric of the airship.

quote:

---

The Hindenburg fabric was found to be made of a cotton substrate with an aluminized cellulose acetate butyrate dopant. The observations of the fire listed above, in fact, are consistent with a huge aluminum fire. (The brightness of the space shuttle’s rocket boosters are an example of aluminum-based combustion.) So, it was the extreme flammability of the Hindenburg’s fabric envelope which caused the disaster and not the lifting gas inside.

---

also

quote:

---

Observations of the incident show evidence inconsistent with a hydrogen fire: (1) the Hindenburg did not explode, but burned very rapidly in omnidirectional patterns, (2) the 240-ton airship remained aloft and upright many seconds after the fire began, (3) falling pieces of fabric were aflame and not self-extinguishing, and (4) the very bright color of the flames was characteristic of a forest fire, not a hydrogen fire (hydrogen makes no visible flame). Also, no one smelled garlic, the scent of which had been added to the hydrogen to help detect a leak.

---

So, it was the fabric that stuffed everyone...

I'm also downloading and FBI report into the matter... < http://foia.fbi.gov/hindburg.htm >

------------------
"All is number" - Pythagoras

quote:

---

they were 'never' going to kill a couple hundred people.

you're supposedly a scientist. you know that 'never' doesn't exist to a scientist.

---

you are taking what i said out of context and using that as an argument. c'mon you don't want to stoop to FOX's level, do you?

quote:

---

and you can go search for the article your damn self, mr. attitude.

---

way to support your argument.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on January 21, 2001 at 08:13 PM

you rip on me for taking things out of context, and then you take things I SAID out of context.

do you KNOW the meaning of the word hypocrite?

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

and when did i quote you out of context?

It's an interesting hypothesis, made even more interesting by the fact that some blimps that used helium burned down just like the Hindenberg.

By a weird coincidence, my buddy came over tonight with a DVD compilation of NASA footage. One of the features was a NASA video going into intricate detail about the Challenger explosion. An O-ring burned up in a solid fuel booster, causing flames to shoot out the side, eventually cutting a hole in the liquid fuel tank. You can see the hydrogen start to burn (you can see it because it's mixing with the solid fuel exhaust). It doesn't look bad at that point, just an extra flame. The onboard computers continue to make adjustments and report back data for a few seconds... until the oxygen tank, located at the top of the main tank, ruptures because the pressure regulator flipped out when the hydrogen tank lost pressure.

You can see liquid oxygen flowing down the shuttle for a couple frames... and in the next frame, the shuttle is gone.

I've heard it mentioned before by welders that the scariest shit they have isn't the acetylene, it's the oxygen. Just about anything will burn like a motherfucker in pure oxygen. Somewhere on the 'net is a video of a guy pouring liquid O2 into a charcoal barbeque. The thing explodes.

Man, I'll burn just about anything but I'd never play with liquid oxygen.

The fucking Hindenberg was landing during a LIGHTNING STORM. Maybe the fact that there were Mega Volts of static in the air had something to do with the fact that all the hydrogen lit off. The tail was the highest point on the landing field. The quikest path to ground would of been through the tail, through the ship to the docking tower, to the ground. all the films of it crashing show the fire starting at the top just in front of the tail.

Just a thought because the simple answer is uasualy the best.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

This message has been edited by Wolfguard on January 22, 2001 at 06:17 AM

The documentary also hinted that some of the panels of the "skin" fabric became isolated from the others due to the ropes that were holding them together getting damp. Now, you know that when you fly something through a magnetic field (eg of the earth) and especially with the ionisation of the air due to the storm, that one panel of the fabric built up a charge relative to the others. The theory is that the discharge of this would have caused ignition of the fabric...

When a lightning bolt is charging up it will pull the opposite charge as close as possible to the point of discharge. Now if a bolt were forming using the blimp as a charge path the blimp would have become negatively charged (full of free electrons). If the electrical difference was not enough to overcome the air gap (3Kv per meter of air) when the storm ended and the charged sky moved off the blimp would have a high Negative charge compared to ground. Now the charge path would be from the blimp's tail to the landing tower

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

if you think it just 'dispersed' take a simple experiment. get 2 balloons. fill one with hydrogen, one with air.

hold a lit match (preferably a fire place match, something LONG so you don't burn yourself) to both of them. note the differences.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

I'm sure it didn't exactly help matters, though.

Nuclear reactors are safe thanx you just cos da russians thought it'd be nice to not bother looking after theirs doesnt mean that every other one is unsafe.

As i've said before in another post it aint the scientists that cause these things to fuck up. its the politicians. they're the ones who dont take us seriously when we explain how not to use stuff (hiroshima wasnt anything to do with scientists, in fact before they dropped the bomb there every scientist that new about it insisted that it be used in an unpopulated area as a demonstration of power, but o no mr politician wanted real fear put ito the japenese)

Hindenberg WAS actually caused by the material on the outer skin. anyone whos read anarchist's cook book will know that iron oxide and aluminium makes thermite. guess what the material was made out of. and kuru you go on about how hydrogen contributed to it. Well of course it fuckin did, thermite burns at around 3000C for fucks sake. < burn beatch > pretty much anything will burn its fuckin nonsense to go on at how hydrogen was the main cause of the fire.

Give Catknight some goddamn respect he shouldnt have to have everyone say he's wrong because YOU ARE!

british people make so much more sense then stupid americans.

oh yeah and i'm glad there are some other people on this board who don't put up with kuru's crap and don't kiss up to her just because she's a l33t ch1k

This message has been edited by CatKnight on January 23, 2001 at 08:33 AM

who ya gonna beleif the tabloids or the scientists

------------------
Dont do drugs/kids

that "/" makes all the difference!

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kuru:

wow catknight, then i guess the stories in your own newspaper the daily collegian (my sister is a penn state student) were lying when they said that penn state was using reactor water as drinking water.

---

I just found out what that was. A former PSU Nuclear Engineering Professor once drank a glass of coolent pool water in front of congress to prove that it was safe. It's likely that this was in the Collegian, and that you misheard what it was bout.

Another instance of how misinformation can lead to specious arguments.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on January 23, 2001 at 01:34 PM

It's not as bad as the anti-GM protesters make it out to be, but it's not the completely beneficial, harmless thing pro-GM advocates make it out to be either.

------------------
Vote Republican! It's easier than thinking.

Anyways.. The coolant water around the reactors is just that, coolant. Its water. Thats all. The reason it glows is due to the amount of electrons flowing through it (I think, I'm not positive). Its not radioactive. So yeah, you could drink it if you wanted to.

And, a truck rolling over and crashing, doesn't mean we should never use propane ever again. It just means a truck rolled over, shit happens, people die, world moves on.

Yes, the Hindenburg was filled with Hydrogen, whoopdefuckingdoo. Sure Hydrogen combusts, but it doesn't do it spontaneously. Gasoline combusts, but that doesn't stop people from routinly pumping 70 litres of it into a tank and driving around in the hot sun with it. Hydrogen is safer than gas, because it has a tendancy to form water vapour when released into the atmosphere.

Chernoble can't be used as a argument against nuclear powerplants now because it was a entirly different type of reactor. It was one that produced weapons grade plutonium as well as heat. Russia loved them, but they weren't very efficent. Also, alot of people fucked up that day. Chances of a meltdown on one of the reactor types used here and now are really very very slim.

Also on topic, I happened across an old PopSci magazine. In it there were just talking about the degregulation of the power industry and what a great thing it was. Guess they fucked that one up, eh? They also talked about the possibity of DSL and Cable internet.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

course the same instant thought your having there about its name is what the media has done to make public opinion say its evil when its not. they've been researching it for over 15 years now and they dont release stuff if they think theres some major risk involved contary to popular belief cos so much money is involved they dont like to take risks. granted it should have checks done on it regulaly but i think the way people have passed judgement on it is very wrong as used properly it can solve a lot of problems with farimng to increase output tremendosly.

------------------
*This post has been thoroughly checked by highly trained professionals and has been found to be free of alcohol or any other mind altering substance*

Who cares if they add an extra gene to make your potatoes bigger? What do they think it will do? Lodge itself in your appendix and cause you to become some hideous darkside mutant?
*sigh*
Fucknuggets

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by j0eSmith:
70 litres of it into a tank

---

damn you Canadians with your beady little eyes and flapping heads so full of lies and your goddamn Metric system!!!

as far as THE MEDIA making a big deal out of it, I doubt it's THE MEDIA that's done it as much as the same idiots who believe that anything "natural" is inherently superior to something synthetic, i.e. herbs are better than pharmaceutical drugs.

quote:

---

Anyways.. The coolant water around the reactors is just that, coolant. Its water. Thats all. The reason it glows is due to the amount of electrons flowing through it (I think, I'm not positive). Its not radioactive. So yeah, you could drink it if you wanted to.

---

the water cools the reactor, and it also shields us from the radiation. the glowing is called cerenkov radiation and is basically like a sonic boom but with light. it's caused by high energy photons being slowed down in water.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by j0eSmith:
Aaahh

Who cares if they add an extra gene to make your potatoes bigger? What do they think it will do? Lodge itself in your appendix and cause you to become some hideous darkside mutant?
*sigh*
Fucknuggets

---

You tell THAT to my Uncle Mortimer! Because of that "HARMLESS" potato chip, he became a space bug!

dark knight bob: show one place where i have said that nuclear reactors in general aren't safe. i pointed out the chernobyl accident to reinforce the point that nuclear accidents are much more often caused by the operating mistakes of human beings rather than any inherent danger in the system.

as for genetically modified foods.... i really don't know. i don't think there has been enough research over a long enough period of time to know exactly what ramifications this could have.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

------------------
*This post has been thoroughly checked by highly trained professionals and has been found to be free of alcohol or any other mind altering substance*

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
iron oxide and aluminum makes termite. guess what the material was made out of. and kuru you go on about how hydrogen contributed to it. Well of course it fuckin did, termite burns at around 3000C for fucks sake!

---

Yes it does (well those and a catalyst), but it takes a higher temp to light it. That is why a termite grenade is lit with a blasting cap. (Momentary temps of 6000-10,000 deg c from combustion and pressure)

So, even if the skin was made of pure termite (that they knew about, used quite often, and knew was flammable) where did the momentary temp come from to light it? Hmmmm? Remember that it just got done raining.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

...

------------------
Vote Republican! It's easier than thinking.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Umm buddy up there is right, its "THERMITE"

...

---

yes it is. It was a blond moment on my part.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wolfguard:
yes it is. It was a blond moment on my part.

---

Hey - I'm blonde, dammit.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Umm buddy up there is right, its "THERMITE"

...

---

hello i was jokin ya know. i have done chemistry a-level. i know how to spell i just dont know how to type thats all

though for some reason this has reminded me of the time i was playing darts with my team and...

ok, a little aside here, the kind of darts we played was scored like baseball on a board designed like a baseball diamond. we throw six inch long darts 30 feet. now, back to the story.....

heckling is part of the game. so this guy from the other team says, to "heckle" me, "HEY! you throw like a GIRRRRRL!"

so i said, "um, yeah, and unlike you i have a real excuse." then he got all pissed off and didn't get another hit all night (and missed the board entirely four times).

so where the hell was i going with this.... oh yeah. it's ok to make fun of yourself from time to time.

i throw darts like a girl.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
i throw darts like a girl.

---

um...you are a girl so this makes a lot of sense

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

but i don't shoot like a girl

and besides. my darts team won the championship the first year i played

(i'm good at hitting doubles).

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
i throw darts like a girl.

---

what the fuck does any of this has to do with this thread?

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
stop being a forum nazi

---

jawohl, mein fuhrer

edit : i misspelled a smiley. I can't believe it.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on January 30, 2001 at 02:11 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
yeah, i know.

but i don't shoot like a girl

---

Hell, nothing wrong with shooting like a girl. From what i have seen women are better shots then men. They realy understand that "squeze the trigger" thing better than we do. When i was in Panama there was a woman MP that would come to the range every saturday and just make us look like a bunch of idiots. Woman could hit a dime at 100 yards, offhand, with open sites. Scary stuff.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

it had nothin to do with this thread.

i want a turkey pot pie.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Posted by Wolfguard:
Woman could hit a dime at 100 yards, offhand, with open sites. Scary stuff.

---

Hrm.. Guess you wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of her sights, eh?

But seriously, thats really fucking impressive. And if it wasn't coming from you, Wolfguard, I'd call bullshit.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

OK, back to the topic at hand. I had corn dogs tonight with chili and cheese INSIDE THEM!!! Life is good

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
i can hit the bullseye on a dime-sized target at 50 ft with open sites (some of the time), but 100 yd (=300 ft) with open sites is ludicrous.

---

Hell, i can make head shots at 300 yards (thats 900 feet) with open sites. I can make the same shot at 1500 yards in low wind at a target that is standing still with a scoped rifle. Both shots made from prone (on the ground)

I can pop dimes at 100 yards with open sites, from prone with out a problem. She could do it offhand (standing) with a 95\% hit rate. (she missed one shot in 20)

Its not "ludicrous". Its just practice. I have burned out 3 barrels in my target rifle just from practice. When in the army i burnt out a barrel in my sniper rifle and went through 2 M16s because of wasted barrels. Hell, saturday in panama there was nothing else to do but go play on the range.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

------------------
It's not that you're wrong, it's just that i'm right!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
why bother with them just use a laser sighted anti tank milan rocket launcher. he dont make much difference if you miss the bullseye by a few inches. there aint gonna be much left >: )

---

Because you light off a Milan, that is a wire guided, not laser guided, anti tank missile every moron in the area will start to shoot at the big cloud that is now behind you and most likely take your ass out before you can get the round to the target. These are fine for taking out tanks but not good for anti personnel. If you want the ease of a laser guide go with the hellfire. all you need is a buddy to toss the missle into the general area then light up the target.

I can get better hits with one shot with a custom .308 and no one will be able to figure out just where that single shot came from till I'm long gone. Been there, done that, got the CIB and the sniper patch to prove it.

...And they let me wander around like normal folk...

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

uses 1337 astrophysics skillz and chucks in a primordial black hole to tear the atomic structure of the earth to pieces. now THATS overkill!!!

"i knew a milan was wire guided just thought it'd make it sound more cool if i put laser targetting"

------------------
It's not that you're wrong, it's just that i'm right!

as it is now i have to be happy with 200 rounds at a time with my 9mm. not nearly enough to keep me happy.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
open sightes=no scope. a regular rifle target (the whole target, not just the bullseye, which is dime-sized) looks like a black dot in the open scope sights at 50 ft.

---

your point? As long as you line things up the same way each and every time guess what... your going to hit the same spot, no matter how big it is.

That and rifle target's black are differnt by range and a 50ft target's black looks the same size as the round your trying to put in it at that range.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

course, i'd also have to start using actual targets instead of sheets of copy paper with a sticker in the middle.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

This message has been edited by Blain on February 01, 2001 at 02:45 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
it's really too bad i can't get my hands on an m16 and a shitload of ammo and start practicing. i'd probably even like to shoot competitively at some point in my life, but i doubt it'll happen because of a profound lack of time and money.

course, i'd also have to start using actual targets instead of sheets of copy paper with a sticker in the middle.

---

For target shooting you want a bolt action rifle. M16 are fine for hitting heads at 300m but not the best for holding a good group. That and the .223 is just a bit light. If you want to play in the big bore class you want a .308 or a 7mm. Both are nice heavy rounds and with a bull barrel you can shoot real hot rounds out of it. I like the .308 myself but its what i have used all my life.

Dont worry about the sticker target. The point of target shooting is knowing where the round is going to hit no matter what the target is. You should be able to squeze off a round and know where the round hit. Scary thing when you say to your self "half a ring high and right" before you look in the spoter scope and there is the hole.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

quote:

---

Originally posted by Blain:
From what I understand it isn’t too hard to convert a semi-auto to fully-auto.
His had a loose pin or something so it would randomly fire off short fully-auto bursts, it was kind of fun...
Tap . . . tap . . . taptaptap

---

Nope. All you need is a file and to know what bit to make smaller.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

it's not perfect, but it kills deer.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
nah dude, with my 7mm i'm more likely to be about 1/2" northwest of center. that's my tendency at 100 yards, and i don't tend to do much worse than 1/2" group.

it's not perfect, but it kills deer.

---

your left handed?

get the trigger pull dropped half a pound. That should take care of that NW pull

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

i've left that NW pull alone because NW on a deer is a better off-center than any of the others. it's a lung shot, or if you're really off, spine.

wanna kill it, not just break its leg.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

------------------
It's not that you're wrong, it's just that i'm right!

"Much of the bashing comes from Republicans, who have seen California turn into one of the nation's most Democratic states in the past decade. When blaming state officials for the 1996 deregulation plan that has created much of the present crisis, Republicans rarely mention that the law was approved by the GOP-controlled Assembly and signed by a Republican governor, Pete Wilson, who championed the concept."

My point is made, I think...

I see where deregulation has brought about some majorly evil business practices by the power companies. The article I posted seemed to indicate that power companies are up in profits in the several hundred percent range. But, it's a combination of deregulation plus the crazy other things going on in California (such as democratic tendancies) that put you in this horrible state.

human beings are in a shit lot of trouble, however.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

In my economics class today, we had a sub, and she brought up the whole black outs and I said "and it's all cuz the rebulicans" and she started talking crap about how it's japan's fault or something... then I just said "Whatever, it's all because the rebulicans voted for something or other and gave control to the businesses."... she gave me some crap and started shoving her personally believes about religion, politics, and some other crap on the whole class... got me pissed. Just wanted to say that

------------------
Spydir Web - spydirweb@techie.com
Core Arctic - < http://welcome.to/CoreArctic/ >

At least, I think that's what this article is trying to say... i just can't understand it. Maybe it's the Patty Melt I had for lunch making me sleepy: < http://www0.mercurycenter.com/local/center/profits0205.htm >

Side note, Miller Brewing is considering moving out of California since a blackout at their plant would be very bad, with much beer gone to waste and a slow reset cycle. Intel is reconsidering building a plant out there that would bring 40,000 jobs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
nope, right handed.

i've left that NW pull ...

---

wow...that is strange but now that i think back i remember a lot of women pull a little high left just like guys pull low right. Funny thing is that it holds true in archery too.

Now i have to find my old instructor and find out why that is...

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
the earth, this 4.2 billion year old ball of rock isn't going to hell or anywhere else.

---

Its not? Then what the fuck am i doing in this hand basket and just where am i going?

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

This message has been edited by CatKnight on February 07, 2001 at 07:46 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
[B
[/B]

---

wow, the close-up of the "you are here" t-shirt.

------------------
Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wolfguard:
Its not? Then what the fuck am i doing in this hand basket and just where am i going?

---

I don't know, but if I find you on Easter morning....

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost