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Forum: Rants
Topic: LISP
started by: DuSTman

Posted by DuSTman on Dec. 20 2000,03:59

Lisp is a crock of shite.

Thank you.

Posted by askheaves on Dec. 20 2000,04:21

You pussy.

LISP brought us garbage collection... the haven for bad programmers. Be happy, and move onto something like Java.

Posted by askheaves on Dec. 20 2000,14:34

I want to learn Smalltalk. It looks supersexy

I also want to learn C# as well. I have the beta, I'm just too lazy.

Posted by whtdrgn_2 on Dec. 20 2000,15:21

Come on now there is no better language then assembler, and it is different for every processor so you can always learn more. Remember that alot of the 4GL languages have there drawbacks. Like very little controll. I prefer C or C++, solely for the control perspective. I have on ocasion done java, and Progress; however, C has never failed me. Microsoft's c# is just another borg-like move for Mr Gates. I think he is hurt because no one wants to code VB anymore.

Posted by askheaves on Dec. 20 2000,15:44

NOONE WANTS TO CODE VB??? Dear lord. There's something like 4 million (or was it 40 million? doubtfull...) VB programmers in america, as opposed to about 400,000 (or was it 40,000) C++ programmers. In any permutation of those distorted figures above, VB is not going to die soon. I even program in VB when I want to create a quick test app for my COM objects. It's point and click, fill-in-the-blank programming. Easy money when you don't care.

I want to get into C# because it's much like C++, Object-Oriented, and basically is a ground-up rip off of Java. Plus, you get one supersexy IDE for all of the languages, and you can comingle the languages with the same application.

I agree with somebody's post in another place... we need a supergeek forum. Probably come in handy when we don't want to bore the yokels.

Posted by DuSTman on Dec. 20 2000,17:25

If I see one more bloody bracket.....

But anyway, know java already...

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Dec. 20 2000,22:20

LISP : Lots of Irritating, Shitty Parentheses.

I had a semester of it. I always thought it would be cool if you could take C and add some of LISP's features (string handling, list processing, garbage collection, etc.)

So when I discovered < Perl > I almost shat my pants.

Almost all of my stuff is done in Perl now, except when I need it to go *really* fast (I use C++ or x86 assembly for that).

Larry Wall deserves much oral sex.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on December 20, 2000 at 05:21 PM

Posted by Michael on Dec. 21 2000,05:05

You're all wrong. FORTRAN is where all the action is.

Just kidding... I had to program in a Fortran-based scripting language that was older than I am for a job once... wasn't especially fun. Oh yeah, and the manual was written in Dutch.

Personally, I use C++ for just about everything I program, or JavaScript if I want to do something simple that anyone can run... DHTML is great for really basic programming stuff, especially involving form input. I'll be learning Scheme, a dialect of LISP, in school next semester, but I'm not especially looking forward to that.

Posted by DuSTman on Dec. 21 2000,07:03

Yeah, well lisp isn't really very hard to get the hang of. I've got the hang after a couple of hours, but the brackets are just insane. An example : One question asked me to output a list containing the words (left right etc, however many times depending on the integer passed to it. here is the code of my answer:

(define march
(lambda (steps)

(cond ((= steps 1) (list 'left))
((even? steps) (append (march (- steps 1)) '(right)))
(else (append (march (- steps 1)) '(left)))
)
)
)

No! Stop the bracketing stupidity! That's only a really simple function but it just looks stupid!

Yeah, university taught me java last year and i 0wn at it, seems a really nice language, and i code a bit in it, but i'm transitioning to c++ for more platform-specific action. Back in the day i did a bit of assembly for atari ST. Great language for curiosity, and making things go as fast as possible, but the rate at which you get stuff done in assembler is just abysmal..

Posted by whtdrgn_2 on Dec. 21 2000,14:11

The only reason that there is still VB programmers is becuase of the nice plugin com object. I made the geek forum suggestion, and I think we should all bug Cr0 so he makes it so. From what I hear Micro$oft doesn't want to put anymore into VB, instead they are going to push there .net and c# shit. I had to take a few Fortran classes, and I hope to god that I never have to do it again. I also took a little Cobal, and that wasn't that bad. My favoret language is and always will be C.

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Wine me, dine me, 1000101 me

Posted by portrman on Dec. 21 2000,16:51

Actually VB is still going to be a major part of MS's plans, its J++ that they are dropping in favor of C#. And with their new ASP.NET and common runtime it is going to be pretty sweet for web and platform specific developers. The C# language is being put before a standards board so that other OS's can have compilers. Personally the little Java I have done wasn't all that great, I preffer C++ but C# is looking really good from where I am. The programming I play with is either web or windows specific and using C# lets my program work for both with little to no changes.
And yes PLZZZZ Cr0 a Geek forum would be cool to talk about this stuff in.

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If more people thought like me, the world would be a much better place. Either that or we would just kill each other, hmmm.....

Posted by Jynx on Dec. 21 2000,20:55

Heh, I did THREE FREAKIN YEARS of COBOL--that's what I get for gettin' a job with an insurance company right out of college.

Lemme tell you this--for certain niche areas, COBOL rulz. More specifically, if you need to make lots and lots of reports about info that nobody else in the WORLD cares about, COBOL is for you.

However, if you want to do real work in the real world, the simple fact is that VB is the way to go. It is the only program that I know of where I can sit down at it, and in a half hour have a truly useful program that normal people can use to get real work done. Yes, I've done my time with C, C++, and all the rest in college, but the fact is that only gamers and hobbyists need to squeeze those last few milliseconds out of their code. For most business apps, VB is the way to go, hands-down.

*edit* removing useless blather. Never mind.
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--Jynx

We do not make software "releases" -- our software escapes, leaving a bloody trail of desginers and quality assurance people in it's wake...

This message has been edited by Jynx on December 21, 2000 at 03:56 PM

Posted by askheaves on Dec. 21 2000,21:58

*********************************************
*** Crobar! Please start a Geek Forum! ***
*********************************************

I have to get off of my lazy ass and play with my VS.NET beta. The 20 minutes I played with it made me spooge in my pants. One IDE, multiple languages... and C# was soooo similiar to writing a Java app, except more builtin components than Swing (from my limitied experience).

And yes, MS want's to put this all in front of a standards board and have other folks develop a CLR for different OS's. I don't remember if a recompile will be necessary for platform independance (I have to assume), but that would be the worst case scenario.

Does anybody here do a lot of work with COM objects? I have a very specific ATL COM question.

Posted by RenegadeSnark on Dec. 21 2000,22:53

Most of my apps are web ones. I strive to write anything in PERL, because I am basically a perl god. But boomgames is written in PHP.

Reason? When I developed the framework for BG, I was just starting to hear a few things about PHP and decided it would be a nice experiment. Well, PHP sucks ass. And it's slow. AND ALL OF FUCKING BG IS WRITTEN IN IT BECAUSE I'M TOO LAZY TO RE-CODE THE ENTIRE THING!

Heh. Well, the funny thing too is that there are a lot of places in the PHP code where it has to throw shit in a temp file and shell to a perl script, simply because PHP was deficient in some area.

My windows coding occurs in C++, *WITHOUT* MFC. MFC makes a "Hello World" 2 meg.

Right now BitHive is just about done (coded in C++ w/o MFC) and I've got the thing running in like less than a meg of memory. Internet Explorer = 30 meg. :P

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Dec. 23 2000,18:44

quote:
Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
My windows coding occurs in C++, *WITHOUT* MFC. MFC makes a "Hello World" 2 meg.

Yeah, MFC is a memory hog. It's good for rapid application development though.

What about the iostream library? Using it adds about 100K of unnecessary code. cout and cin are no easier to use than printf() and scanf()... but they made us use iostream when I took C++ classes in college...

::sigh::

Posted by askheaves on Dec. 25 2000,04:19

******************************************
*** Crobar! Please start a Geek Forum! ***
******************************************

FYI on the MFC. All MFC really is is an object oriented wrapping of the Windows API, with a couple of extra goodies. You have the option of dynamically linking the mfc libraries (ie, making use of that whole dll concept), and your hello world apps come down to around 250K in release mode. While that's still a little crazy, it's not that unreasonable. One thing most beginners don't realize is that you don't want to compile your apps in DEBUG mode for release... as it includes a lot of extra crap for debugging.

ATL apps are lots of fun. Not sure how, but it is so size-optimized that your same hello world apps (and even more powerful apps) come down to the 40-80K range.

Posted by whtdrgn_2 on Dec. 29 2000,15:32

******************************************
*** Crobar! Please start a Geek Forum! ***
******************************************

I don't doubt the merrits of VB; however, in my line of work most of what we do requires rock solid controll of our apps. For most database stuff we use progress, and we write TCP backends into progress in C that allow us to replicate to non progress databases or vise versa. If I can get a DB to accept stdin or outpu stdout then I can do wonders with it. Most of my programming is done in Unix enviroments, and MFC has little room in my heart. Asembler is good for drivers, and emulators (not to mention good kernel optimization), but I wouldn't write word perfect in asm.

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Wine me, dine me, 1000101 me

Posted by RenegadeSnark on Dec. 29 2000,16:17

EDIT: Oops, realized I already replied to this thread.

This message has been edited by RenegadeSnark on December 29, 2000 at 11:19 AM

Posted by RenegadeSnark on Dec. 29 2000,16:20

cout << "Yeah, I stick to the old stdio.h. IOStream just doesn't float my boat." << endl;

hehe

quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Yeah, MFC is a memory hog. It's good for rapid application development though.
What about the iostream library? Using it adds about 100K of unnecessary code. cout and cin are no easier to use than printf() and scanf()... but they made us use iostream when I took C++ classes in college...
::sigh::

Posted by RenegadeSnark on Dec. 29 2000,16:23

I used to use ASM for a few various things. This was back when I forced myself to learn Z80 assembler so I could fuck around with my TI-82. Long story short, inside 1 week doing any kind of game on the TI-82 stopped being fun. My desire to create sophisticated hacks ended, and I regressed to writing some innovative software in TI-BASIC to do all the problems in Algebra and Geometry that would take a page of work to do.

That was the day... I'd finish my homework in 1 minute, have all the right answers, no work shown... Of course, I eventually lost interest in school altogether and lost the TI-82... Dunno where it is, prolly stolen.

quote:
Originally posted by whtdrgn_2:
******************************************
*** Crobar! Please start a Geek Forum! ***
******************************************
I don't doubt the merrits of VB; however, in my line of work most of what we do requires rock solid controll of our apps. For most database stuff we use progress, and we write TCP backends into progress in C that allow us to replicate to non progress databases or vise versa. If I can get a DB to accept stdin or outpu stdout then I can do wonders with it. Most of my programming is done in Unix enviroments, and MFC has little room in my heart. Asembler is good for drivers, and emulators (not to mention good kernel optimization), but I wouldn't write word perfect in asm.

Posted by hyperponic on Dec. 29 2000,18:27

quote:
Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
I used to use ASM for a few various things. This was back when I forced myself to learn Z80 assembler so I could fuck around with my TI-82. Long story short, inside 1 week doing any kind of game on the TI-82 stopped being fun. My desire to create sophisticated hacks ended, and I regressed to writing some innovative software in TI-BASIC to do all the problems in Algebra and Geometry that would take a page of work to do.

d00d! z-80 assembly was the shit back in the day. used to code that all the time on a TI-83. *sigh*......ahem, anyway. i am disappointed in you

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It's not peer pressure, its just your turn.

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Dec. 31 2000,07:10

Z80? You wusses. I programmed in 6502 assembler on the old Atari 8 bit machines.

The 6502... now THERE was a microprocessor. 1.79MHz of number-crunching power! Three eight-bit registers! 256 bytes of stack space! Your choice of binary or BCD mode! And if you owned the Atari, you had an entire floating-point package in ROM! Woowoo!

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Dear Mr. cr0bar,
we wants a geek forum!
Thanx,
Damien S. Lucifer

Posted by whtdrgn_2 on Jan. 01 2001,14:38

Well we could all do a mine is bigger contest, but truth be told unless you want specific MMX hacks, or are writting a driver. ASM is not what you want. Every couple of months a new language comes out and it is thee language. But when it all comes down to it. It all reverts to a "c" like language. Will c# replace C++, perhaps, but I hope not. Software bloat is not as important now with RAM less then a buck a meg, and hardrive space in massive quantities. My first HD was 40 Mb, and now I my smallest one owned is 14 Gb. I love C and will always use it for Unix (PHP for Unix scripting - yes PHP can be compiled as a stand alone Unix binary), but things change.

NOTE: MMX is a crock of shit. It helps multimedia about as much as Al Gores apeals helped him. 99\% of all multimedia instructions require floating point; however, MMX is real number. BITCHES!

quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Z80? You wusses. I programmed in 6502 assembler on the old Atari 8 bit machines.
The 6502... now THERE was a microprocessor. 1.79MHz of number-crunching power! Three eight-bit registers! 256 bytes of stack space! Your choice of binary or BCD mode! And if you owned the Atari, you had an entire floating-point package in ROM! Woowoo!

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Wine me, dine me, 1000101 me