Topic: Republicans
started by: demonk
Ok, now that I've gotten that out of my system, let everyone know how much you hate Republicans and their bullshit!
This message has been edited by demonk on December 19, 2000 at 09:49 AM
quote:
Originally spewed by demonk:
I hate how the Republicans are walking around now with their chests puffed out acting like they own (or rule) the world.
This isn't a uniquely "Republican" trait. Believe me when I say that if Gore would've won his little legal tantrum, the Dems would be doing the exact same thing.
quote:
Originally blathered by demonk:
BUSH WAS NOT F**KING ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE!!!!! He was handed the Presidence by a partisan Supreme Court!
No, he won the election by winning a majority of votes cast by representatives that were chosen by The People. Ya know, that whole "Electoral College" thing. Yes, Gore won the popular vote, but your beef should actually be with the Electoral College system, and not with the Republicans.
quote:
Originally belched by demonk:
If you make one wrong move while in office Bush, I swear I will be right in your face and let you know how you don't belong here and should be taken out back and severaly whipped for all the s**t you have pulled on the people of this country.
Oh please. This kind of whining makes me SICK. For crying out loud, he DOES belong there because he won the Electoral votes. Grow up.
I am just sick and TIRED of this Democratic whining about how Gore "should have" gotten the election. No, he shouldn't! He lost the UNOFFICIAL AP poll by a few hundred, and then he lost the OFFICIAL FLORIDA COUNT. When he didn't like it, he sued. Does that seem like something a normal, mature, grown-up would do? NO!
People have been whining about the ballots. The ballots are irrelevant, because BOTH REPS AND DEMS SIGNED OFF ON THEM BEFORE THEY WERE USED. You can't retract that approval afterwards because your party didn't get enough votes, it just doesn't work like that.
People have been whining about certain ballots, namely those with two punches or invalid punches, not being counted. Well, of course they aren't! They are invalid, and therefore no assumption can be made about the true wish of the voter! You CANNOT interpret an ambiguous ballot at all, period.
I came across this the other day, it was rather fitting:
quote:
"Maybe you can help me. I bought a lottery ticket yesterday and had a little problem. It was just so confusing while I was filling it out that I inadvertently selected the wrong numbers. I meant to pick the numbers that won, but had such a hard time reading the ticket that I selected the other numbers. I believe that I should be entitled to another chance at filling out my ticket now that I know I would win if I had actually chosen the numbers I thought I was picking. Should I contact my state lottery board? Maybe I could get Jesse Jackson to crusade against the injustices of the current lottery system..."
Bottom line--STOP WHINING. There is no "should"--if Gore "should have" been president, then he WOULD HAVE. The fact is that when he didn't get the results he wanted, he threw a fit and tried desperately to change reality into what he thought it should look like, and that just doesn't work.
<EDIT--masking out the potty-mouth 
>
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--Jynx
We do not make software "releases" -- our software escapes, leaving a bloody trail of desginers and quality assurance people in it's wake...
This message has been edited by Jynx on December 19, 2000 at 11:18 AM
Once again Sithee proves to everyone what a jack-ass he is!
*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*
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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >
quote:
Unoriginally belched out by Sithiee:
...bush won because of the supreme court.
Actually, you're wrong. Bush won because of the votes cast, and Gore's lawyers failed to get the recount going again because of the Supreme Court.
quote:
Unoriginally spewed forth by Sithiee:
the supreme court decided that basically, it was unfair for florida to accept handcounts because the system of grading the ballots was not uniform.
What's wrong with that? I guarantee that if the situation were reversed, you would be applauding their decision.
quote:
Unoriginally belched out by Sithiee:
gore did win, bush knows gore rightfully won, and any nonpartisan would realize that the votes were there.
Um, no he didn't, and no they aren't.
quote:
Originally noted by Sithiee:
the electoral college is in place so that politicians dont forget about the smaller states, but it was still supposed to be an accurate representation of the peoples choice. the fact that it has failed 4 times to accurately represent the people tells me that theres something wrong with it.
So then complain about the voting system and stop blaming Republicans for it.
quote:
Unoriginally belched out by Sithiee:
...and based on the info we have, i think gore did win.
And what info is that? "I wanted Gore to win, so he should win." Hmm. I mean, if you have some concrete evidance that shows that Gore actually won the Florida popular vote then I'll listen to this statement. Until then, you are trying to force your wishes into reality, and it doesn't work like that.
quote:
Hiccuped by Sithiee:
however, i dont really want to say either way what the people want...
Um, isn't that exactly what you're doing? You are telling me what the people of Florida actually wanted to do, even though they did something different. Oops.
quote:
Confusingly burbled by Sithiee:
bush saw that he could win on a technicality...
Yeah. "Well, since technically a simple majority of the Florida votes were for me, I won Florida." Rather important technicality, don't ya think?
Now, let's have fun with the Republicans Sithee named:
quote:
Noted by Sithiee:
the woman who certified floridas votes was bush's campaign manager...
So? All she did was cerify the votes, she didn't count them. That means that she ensured that the people who did the actual counting, and the machines that do the actual counting, were employed by Florida and hired for this express purpose. Her party affiliation doesn't change the number of votes, and if you have evidance that she did change that number then she should go to jail for fraud.
quote:
Noted by Sithiee:
Scalia's(supreme court justice) two sons are lawyers who work for bush...
So? For all you know, Scalia HATES his sons, and would love nothing better than to see them crash and burn. Family ties are totally irrelevant.
quote:
Noted by Sithiee:
Thomas'(another justice) wife collects applications for people who want to work in bush's administration
SO WHAT. How does this relate to anything? Who says that Thomas cares what his wife is doing with her time? Once again, the connection is irrelevant.
quote:
Blathered by Sithiee:
normally, people who have a personal stake in such matters are supposed to revuse themselves, because they are not impartial, but of course if either scalia or thomas had, then bush would have lost. thats what you call a representation of the people?
No, it's what I call a judicial decision on a case that sued to continue recounts of votes in Florida. The representation of the people was that certified vote that Gore was trying so hard to overturn.
For crying out loud, folks! Whtdrgn said it best--Bush is president-elect, now let's get to work.
--J
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
BUSH WAS NOT FUCKING ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE!!!!! [...]
As Rev. Jackson said: "The loser won and the winner lost." If you make one wrong move while in office Bush, I swear I will be right in your face [...]
As Jessi Vantura said: "I fear the career politician." I'm with you Jessi, for once!
1) Wasn't elected by people? I didn't realize the dog and cat vote was so strong....
2) Jesse Jackson's comments? If anybody is puffing their chests, it's Jesse and the Democrats. Your comments say it all. You feel you have a moral victory and you own GW because of the 36 day rant you held. The funny thing is that a lot of folks are slowly backing away from the foaming-at-the-mouth Jackson because he's completely out on a limb.
3) Jesse Ventura? I love Jesse. I'm from MN and I was cheering for him the whole campaign. And I agree with you and him. The career politician is someone who has done nothing in his/her life to advance themselves in any direction other than debating on policy. They debate issues that affect the lives of many people... who lead much different lives than them. Career politicians live in their own little world.
If you want to talk about a career politician, Gore is the very definition. He has been campaigning for the presidency since he was in his 20's. You know why in his concession speech he said he doesn't know what he's going to do? Because he doesn't know what else to do. He doesn't do anything else. He is the Polititron2000 automated policy making machine. Bush ran the god damn Rangers!... among other things.
Katherine Harris i believe is the name of the secratary of state, and it was her decision when to certify the votes, and whether or not to wait for the hand recounts to finish. naturally, she did not want to wait.
Youre right, maybe theres an off chance that Scalia hates both his sons, but not likely...bout as likely as those jewish ww2 veterans voting for buchanan.
Wait wait wait, so youre saying that you think Thomas wants his wife to be unemployed? think that one over a bit.
Jim, do i deny being an ass? No.
if its any consolation to those of you who hate bush, statistically, because he was elected in a year ending in a 0, theres likely to be an assassination attempt on Bush. lets just hope whoever does it, does it right.
but watch out, he might run some more ads with subliminable messages....
quote:
Originally posted by jim:
*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*Once again Sithee proves to everyone what a jack-ass he is!
*clap* *clap* *clap* *clap* *clap*
*sounds airhorn and waves giant foam finger*
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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass
quote:
Originally posted by Jynx:
No, he won the election by winning a majority of votes cast by representatives that were chosen by The People. Ya know, that whole "Electoral College" thing. Yes, Gore won the popular vote, but your beef should actually be with the Electoral College system, and not with the Republicans.
FUCK YOU
Now here is what I think. Gore won the popular vote and therefore I believe he should be president except for the fact that the electral college is who decides the next president. I am suprised that no-one has brought up the fact that they don't even have to vote the way the majority of their state did. The laws just say they have to vote, and this is exactly what florida was about to do. Elect Bush supports as electral votes and have them vote bush even if gore won.
Now this brings me to my next point, whoever were to win the hand recount still wouldn't know for sure who actually won. The problem is obvious for anyone who knows statistics which demonk definatly does. There is always a magin of error the the say 300 votes that gore might have won by would easly be within that margin and so we still couldn't be sure who really won. So we must default to who "techniclly" won and according to the supreme court, bush did. This is another problem with the voting system. There is no reason to use these stupid machines when we have scantrons and more digital means to count votes. Also, the laws were follow and to their extreme in florida. The law says there that recounts only happen if there is a justifyable reason and the lady(whatever her name is) said no recounts would be accepted and yet the counties still recounted. So the entire ordeal could have been avodied if the people had just listened to her because she said she wouldn't accepted them.
I can't disagree that there were many people that accidently voted for the wrong person and did so because they were confused by the ballot. Well all I can say to them is "Fuck YOU". Do we really want people voting who can't even figure out a simple card that 3rd graders were able to figure out with ease. The card may have been hard to understand but taking an extra minute to read it would have made all the differance but they were stupid and ignorant like most americans and fucked up. I have no pity for them and would simply laugh to anyone of them if I was talking to them face to face.
The last matter I would like to discuss is how gore handled the lawsuits. As I said earlier. The law was taking to its extreme in this case and gore had every right to go to court to protect what he thought was right. Bush did the same and defended himself with earnest. I have no hard feelings to either bush or gore because both fought well and respectably. But I have no respect for the stupid complains about this election. The people of florida fucked up this time and maybe in 4 years they won't again. But to late, I have to live with my mistakes, they can to.
So can't we all just get along?? :-)
We're not as "technologically advanced" as you Americans, but we can sure as hell decide over a Prime Minister easier than you guys can
re-elected. Come on now, at least Bush has Chainey, and Colen Powel. If not Bush, then like him for his cabinet members.
ok, one more thing i forgot. if the candidates don't like the voting system, too bad. they each had to see the ballot etc. from each state and approve of it BEFORE THE ELECTION. afterwards it's too late, after it's just an excuse to toss away votes.
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Ah screw it.
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ICEGAMING.COM
This message has been edited by MattimeoZ80 on December 20, 2000 at 09:26 AM
1) Even the creator of the ballot machines used in Florida agreed that a hand recount would prove once and for all the TRUE results of the election. If Bush turely believes that he would have won Florida, then there was no reason for him blocking the hand recount. And a hand recount WAS legal for Gore to call for. Bush should have just let him do it instead of dragging it on and on. (I know you are going to say Gore did that, but it was really Bush's fault)
2) If a person has a personal stake in a decision, they are ethically required to take themselves out of the decision making. I don't care if Scalia hates or loves his sons, the fact is is that the decision COULD be influinced by that connection. One of the justices is pro Bush. She was heard saying it was horrible that Bush didn't get Florida when they called it for Gore early in the election. That makes it a conflict of interests. It was not as fair and imparshal(sp) as it should have been.
Bush may have been elected by the Electoral College, but he was not chosen by the majority of the people. He LOST by over 358,000 votes! This is the year we need to call for REAL voting reform. Here is my suggestions:
1) Replace punch card ballots with electronic touch screens that let you review all your selections before your vote is cast. That way, we can be sure that every votes the way that they want and that there can be no disspute or invalid votes.
2) The Electoral College is gone. There used to be a need for it, but now there isn't, especialy if we use my first suggestion. Every votes WOULD count!
3) It is a simple majority wins system. Even if it is by 1 vote, but only if they use my first suggestion.
Oh, and yes, if the decision had been in Gores favor, and the hand recount did come out to be in Gores favor, all the Demacrates would be acting the same was as the Republicans are now.
Popular vote argument: Just to put it to rest... It doesn't matter who wins the popular vote. It does not necessarily represent the sentiment of the country... because the rules set down before the election describe an electoral college system, so everybody campaigns that way or votes that way. For example, it was a forgone conclusion that Arizona was going to go Bush, as was Texas. So, there would have been a large number of Bush votes from those two states if it were a popular vote system. Flipside, many folks voted for Nader in Gore-Guaranteed states. We were well within a margin of error on the national popular vote, so I don't think either side clearly has a majority of the public sentiment.
As for Florida: 300 some votes is WAY within a margin of error. Both sides realize this. Bush's side obviously didn't want continuing recounts and shifting standards to occur because it's similiar to throwing a coin in the air 10 times, and claiming a win the first time it hits heads. What complicated Florida is that there was an unusually high margin of error due to decrepit technology, poorly designed ballots (approved, mind you), and nearsighted elderly folks with no lower arm strength.
The biggest improvements that need to happen in Florida are methods of getting that margin of error down to a manageable level. New technology and more clearly layed out rules/laws/procedures.
What I disagree with gore is how he tried to change the rules, the laws, after the vote occured to sway them his way. He had every right to say the way things occured were incorrect but he should have waited till after the election and then push the government to change the election process. Its like a lossing football team saying the endzone should have been 10 yards closer because then they would have won.
Demonk is right, we should not discrimate against those with less intelligence, but the point I was making was that these people should have taken more time if it was really important to them. If I have a big important paper I don't just type then submit it. I read it through again and again to make sure it is correct. They didn't and for that reason I say "fuck them". The voting cards may have been hard but to bad, lifes a bitch(my motto) so live with it.
But if someone could please explain in detail why majority shouldn't rule and the electral college should then I would be very happy. The way it works now is more like sampling for majority. And while sampling is nice it isn't always acurrate and this election was a prime example of that. Anyways, thanks.
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If more people thought like me, the world would be a much better place. Either that or we would just kill each other, hmmm.....
note: while i understand the need for the electoral college, i think it would be redesigned to better represent the majority without forgetting the smaller places...
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Ah screw it.
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ICEGAMING.COM
you don't know that the democrats would have won in florida. even if it was a tie, did anyone bother to count the absent tee ballots? no...
i was watching cspan for some reason, and i saw this lady taking votes that were clearly either blanks or ambiguous and putting them in the gore pile, and taking bush ballots and putting them in the trash pile. partisanship works both ways, they probably cancel each other out.
the reason why buchannon probably got votes from that area in florida where no one expected was probably because, well, he LIVED THERE. then again...bush won arkansas hehe.
the fact that this election was so close prooves that no one cares who won anyway...cept for sithiee and a few other crack heads...
Think of this scenario:
We switch to a majority vote. Under this majority vote, we use new technology such as touch screens and electronic voting(not the internet) to tally all votes. Now, every one's vote matters. The candidates have to cater to ALL groups of people.
The analogy to the 51\% of the people deciding to kill a certin minority isn't valid since we have laws in place to prevent this. And we couldn't repeal those laws since that would be unconstitutional and would be blocked.
The Electoral College was put into place because there was no way to count every vote back in the day. But with current technology would could count every vote and get a true censes.
Allowing one state the ability to decide an election is wrong. With majority vote, it would never happen.
Here's my take on the Florida deal. I really think Gore was the one trying to steal the election by asking for re-counts in heavy democratic areas. I think a re-count of the entire state would have still shown Bush as the victor. Even my mom thinks that, and she hates Bush with a passion. She is quoted as saying "I hate Bush as govenor of Texas as much as the next person, but electing him president is not the best way to get rid of him." My mom is a trip.
But if the margin of victory is less than the calculated margin of error, then statistically it should have been a tie, and tie rules applied. It doesn't matter how many re-counts you have, there is still a margin of error that doesn't go away. So even if the recounts put Gore ahead, further recounts could then put Bush back ahead.
I think it was a tie in Florida. But because Gore is such a whiney pussy, I'm glad he lost. Also, I hate politics, I didn't vote, and if the parties were reversed I'd say the same damn thing about Bush.
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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >
Florida is broken up into counties and each county submits their totals.
In county1 51/100 vote for Bush
In county2 90/100 vote for Gore
In county3 51/100 vote for Bush
so in this case Bush wins 2 electoral vote while Gore only wins 1, but if we use majority then Bush gets 112 votes and Gore gets 188 votes. Gore would win the majority by a large margin!!(25\%) And this is exactly what happened during this election. Bush was able to take the majority in 2 counties while Gore only won 1. But because Bush barely won in each county, Gore was able to pull the majority.
Sithiee you said the electoral system is in place to protect the minority, well what about the majority huh? While I won't go into it here, Affermative action is a prime example of the kinds of problems that can arise when protecting the rights of the minority the majority get left behind. Affermative action was an ok idea terriably implimented.
This is just one way the electral college can and now has faild the American people. One other quick thing I would like to bring up is that it really doesn't matter which way the votes go in the states as far as electing people to vote in the electoral college. Rep's own florida's Government and they were prepared to elect Bush supporters to the electoral college that would have vote for Bush no matter what the final count outcome was. See the laws don't say the electoral voters must vote the way their state does.
So if anyone can find some articles on the internet to explain to me why the electoral system is good then please please post them. I am eager to understand this.
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If more people thought like me, the world would be a much better place. Either that or we would just kill each other, hmmm.....
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
[...]Allowing one state the ability to decide an election is wrong. With majority vote, it would never happen.
I'm not responding necessarily to these words i quoted... just pointing to the correct post without reposting the whole thing... Common courtesy, and all
So, you're pretty much wrong. With the electoral college in place, you can't win the presidency if you get just a few of the big states. Florida wasn't the biggest part of the election the day before it... it's 25 votes out of over 500. The only reason Florida came into the limelight is because of how close everything was.
What are the odds that both Al and GW coming to visit Milwaukee MULTIPLE times each during this election without the electoral college? In 96, it wasn't that close, so I don't know if Bill or Bob came to town. Al and GW both made a major tour of the midwest during this election, stopping in WI, MN, IA, and IL. These are commonly referred to as 'fly-over' states by the Hollywood wierdos who would be choosing the president in a simple majority election.
I'm too tired to make any good points right now. I think I'll just point you back to my previous posts and collapse in a pile on my bed. So, in conclusion, you're totally wrong and you're a fat fatty fat fat fat.
the voting system sucks/its bullshit/it should die.
gore won.
bush won.
they both suck ass, who gives a shit which moron "we" have put into office.
we need something that works. not this half ass legislation that doesn't fix a fucking thing. we don't need to cram two or three different bills into one, that just fucks shit up and causes more problems. (that's not just about voting)
damnit i'll clerify on this tomarrow, i can't think stright
quote:
Originally posted by MattimeoZ80:
except florida has way more than three counties, those were just the ones gore decided were "ok to recount because they're more highly democratic"
I wasn't refering to any specific counties, I was trying to generalize to prove a point and it still stands.
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If more people thought like me, the world would be a much better place. Either that or we would just kill each other, hmmm.....
Currently, when 51\% of the people vote for a candidate, 100\% of the electoral votes go to that candidate! That's kinda like just throwing out 49\% of the votes from that state. That is a Bad Thing.
The simple fact is that now with TV and the Internet, the candidates can reach EVERYONE. The only reason people are ignorant in today's world is because they choose to be ignorant.
The electoral college made sense when the word could not be spread easily, but since the word speads faster than light, all the electoral college does is hinder the will of The People.
Down With The Electoral College!!
--J
As for EC in general... We don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic. The theory of a republic is that, following along with the division of labor theory, some people have to take over the job of governing since the rest of us are too busy programming computers, waiting on tables, balancing books, stripping, and getting high on crystal meth to be an effective voter on legislation. The election process works in much the same way as our legislation, except that the electors are elected and they only make one forgone conclusion of a decision.
While this is a special case, and it's for a different branch of government, it follows basically the same model. It allows people to come to contribute to the selection of a person who will represent their views. That person, in turn, selects the president of our nation.
In America, there is no such thing as a contest that is determined by the majority of people in the country. There is no office, no legislation, no administrative law... nothing. I don't like the idea of breaking our model for this one special case. It's a nice clean implementation across the boards.
Um, this isn't really breaking a model, in my book. Consider that every other elected official from the County Commissioner on up to the Senate and House representatives are all elected by simple majority. Bills are passed or failed by simple majority, and that seems to work just fine. Now, if these things work fine for all positions up to and including national officials, why should the pres/vp choice be any different?
--J
btw, Jim, what exactly are the rules of a tie? do they give no votes?
That has been stated to me as true... in those terms. I think the statute itself suggests a poker game.
I'd suggest a rousing game of gofish... or Old Maid
Now theres an image! Two presidential candidates locked in an intense game of GoFish.
With the entire presidancy riding on his shoulders, the Democratic Candidate utters those two dreaded words "Go Fish"
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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass
quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
to quote my 7th grade spanish teacher "life's a bitch, and then you die"
Like HELL, that is my fucking line so tell your teacher to back the fuck off. Ask demonk, I've been using that line forever now!!
Ok on with my commments. Sithiee you have yet to give a reasonable explaination as to why majority would be a negitive thing. All you keep saying is that "if it works, don't break it". Well it doesn't work, it's already broken. Time to admit it it's fucked and change our ways. Now as for only 9 changed votes, well 25 more were about to be created this election. Bush would have won either way. Also, the 25 votes are not split between the canadits. All the votes from one state go to one canadit, thus making the margin of error even greater then it already is because of incorrectly counted votes. The voting proccess is pure statistics. Demonk made a great point, if majority is good enough for country wide, state wide, why not country wide. I believe Canada does majority and they have the final count by the end the day and they do all hand counts. America, it's time to admit we are not perfect and get things changing.
btw, I still haven't seen any url's for explainations as for why the EC is a good idea.
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If more people thought like me, the world would be a much better place. Either that or we would just kill each other, hmmm.....
and when i said there have been 9 unfaithful electors, i mean the people who go to vote for the pres, theyre called the electoral college. there are 538 of them. they are chosen to run (thats right, when you vote, you vote for an elector, not a presidential candidate) because they have extreme loyalty. when a state goes one way or another, the chances of the electors who are voting for them changing their vote are extremely low. im about as likely to go jump off a bridge at 2 in the morning in womens clothing. and whether or not it was bush's state is not a known fact. as many people have said, the margin he won by was tiny compared to the margin of error. this means gore could have won, or bush, or it could have been a tie.
and personally, i think they should just have a brawl to the death, celebrity deathmatch style. first round, tipper gore vs. laura bush. i think bush would win this one, because tipper has the whole being responsible thing (parental warning labels and such). next up, dick cheney vs. lieberman. lieberman would obviously come out on top here, simply because the ringing of the bell to start the fight would startle cheney so bad, hed have another massive coronary and die. then of course, al gore vs. george w bush. gore wins, no question. first off, hes like 2 times as big as bush. he used to be a football player. gore is smart. bush is not. no question. i think that is definitly the best way to solve the whole matter.
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Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
America is not a Country, in the traditional sense. It is a Union of states with a balance of power between them and the overall federal body. As such, we do not have ANY country wide decisions that normal folks can vote on. We have folks who represent our interests and our states, in a model similiar to the UN, but with better proportionality. It's not as simple as throwing all of the votes in the US into a hat. The reason that the government can't enforce a 55MPH speed limit or a 21 year old drinking age is because we don't want to give up our states' rights... otherwise it's just another country. The way around that for the feds is to offer great incentives for compliance, and states make that decision based on what's best for it's people.
A national vote based on a simple majority is a federal program. The electoral college is a semi-fair balance between a Senate style choice system, and a House style system. States are represented, but balanced with sheer numbers. Without a balance like this, we'd just be another country.
thank you.
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It's not peer pressure, its just your turn.
quote:All I can say is Amen.
the thing that amazes me most about the usa is that we constantly bitch about how much this country sucks, how all our leaders are morons, how we are all frickin' idiots, etc
And with that note Sithiee, I completely agree. Let them fight, and die for their country. Let them all die!!
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If more people thought like me, the world would be a much better place. Either that or we would just kill each other, hmmm.....
This message has been edited by portrman on December 22, 2000 at 03:46 PM