I just read that he declared the Kyoto agreement dead. WTF?!? The single agreement trying to save the world, from global warmth is now just trash, because mr. Bush needs to have some more energy. Energy we desperately try to save in the rest of the world is just consumed with now thought about it at all i the US. The average american citizen uses more than twice as much energy than the average european. And you want more. The world is slowly coming to an end. Scientists has calculated a global increase of temperature at about 5°C (or Kelvin) the next decade. And George Bush is just trying to get his hands on more energy by invading protected territories in Alaska and god knows where. And don't try to interfere, because all his lawmen on his side, are ready to make their way there if nescesarry. Why does he need the energy? Because he needs to sleep with the friggin' lights on?

And then some known american guy told US to buy Greenland, so no interference with the missile defense shield would arrise. And as an argument for that he actually said, that it would give americans a place to live, if the seas would rise. But you know what? I'll get a little eskimo to fuck up your radar, so Sadam and Lenin and Belsebub can shoot missiles in your face until, you are not there to fuck up the environment anymore. Well...as of now, because of your leaders lameness, I can say for sure that the big iceberg is not for sale.

HAHA...you will never get Greenland...Sick freaks!

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 18, 2001 at 01:51 AM

Yes I don't think I actually know ANYONE who voted for Bush Personally.... I don't think anyone did....

I know he didn't get the most votes, but to say that noone actually voted for him seems to me like a questionable statement

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 18, 2001 at 04:04 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by Kolben:
In Europe we've just concluded that George Bush is one sick twisted person. Or maybe his just dumb, and good at being it.

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You guys JUST concluded that? Hell, we knew that all along.

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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

Oh btw.. Global warming is not just a human enduced thing. If you paid attention in earth science class youd remember warming and cooling periods earth has had over the last billion or so years.

------------------
Radio Dj: so now that your not on saturday night live what are you gonna do?

Jim Bruer: I dont know.. fight mexicans or something.

FUHAOHB2IPDEFCIPUDQNFQFYLOEGOGB

quote:

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Personally I dont care for the man, but theres not much I can do about it except not vote for him again next year.

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uhh..you do mean 4 years, right?

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Only you can prevent forum fires.

quote:

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And George Bush is just trying to get his hands on more energy by invading protected territories in Alaska and god knows where.

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hey man, didn't you know we OWN alaska? denmark daily news headline: UNITED STATES INVADES ALASKA! haha

don't be bitchin about our energy consumption. we killed those native americans fair and square. besides if it wasn't for us hitler woulda fragged your asses along with everyone else's in europe.

Allowed birth control to be excluded from federal health insurance.

Banned aid to groups that promote birth control and abortion to third world countries (heaven forfend some poor third world country girl be stopped from making a baby that will ultimately starve to death along with the baby's 6 brothers and sisters)

He's pissed off china, like things aren't bad enough. (we got caught. Now is not the time to posture. They have warheads aimed at your ass and they dont talk like the Russians did.)

He's pushing for the destruction of natural reserves to get to oil so all those idiots can fill up their 14 miles-per-gallon SUVs.(instead of raising the Miles per Gallon standard and pursuing other avenues to lower gas use)

He's letting the California goverment rape everyone for power

He's pissed off every environmental group out there. (except maybe the Save the Oil coalition-haha)

Arsenic in drinking water: Bush Administration Thumbs up

His promise to amend the rift between the republicans and democrats....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The UN: we got what we deserved. Our policies suck.

God bless America and the Electoral College.

It could be worse. At least we can boot him out in four years. And if he really pisses us off we can always impeach him. Write your congressman.

Grrrr.

PS: I voted for Gore, lesser of two evils and all that stuff.

This message has been edited by Nene on May 18, 2001 at 10:03 AM

You own Alaska and what a shame. One if the only unspoiled places on earth, and you want to fuck it up, just because your greedy asses needs some more energy. But you don't own Greenland, so don't come crying when the natural disasters kicks in as the globe heats up. We'll probably just go there, and save those of you who needs saving. That's people like...uhm Britney Spears and people that knows a bit about the environment while having our sympathy. We don't need you catknight. You'll just start the worlds largest mass-PMS or something. We don't need that. We need people that is happiiiieeee

And don't bring hitler into it everytime I say something. He was just as sick as bush, but he wouldn't have touched Denmark. We just let him through, so go read you fucking history book again. And actually you guys bombed a danish school during the war (21. march 1945), because you didn't know wtf you were doing. Nice. Aiming you weapons at our kids. You guys are the heroes *coughcoughcough*. You did more damage than the germans did in Denamrk. The germans build us bigger roads and gave us Volkswagens. And don't try to make me give you credit for saving me, because you didn't. Actually Denmark didn't need saving, but if anyone was to get credit for saving us, I'd have to thank Sovjet and England before you. They fought from start to end, and did it good. When you came the war had already been moved into checkmate. The german defeat were already certain. So STFU!!

/me hugs Nene and gives her the big medal of homor. Finally someone got it right. Actually most of you did I guess Seeing that you guys admit that it was a mistake voting for Bush warms my heart. Maybe I'll fix a spot for you on Greenland, if you bring Britney Spears and Angelina Jolie with you

We want Clinton back. He was one of your great presidents, seen from the rest of the worlds point of view. That he used some Monica girl for fun obviously meant that he didn't have to use China and Alaska. Plz...get bush a woman and quick. Actually you should feel lucky that China didn't kill your spy-pilots and fire their big guns at you. They actually had the right to do that, looking in the treaties all over

I blame cr0bar! He voted for bush, and made his diciples di the same! I'm pretty sure he did, that is

quote:

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Originally posted by Kolben:
Catknight what's you problem? Wasn't this forum for bitching?

You own Alaska and what a shame. One if the only unspoiled places on earth, and you want to fuck it up, just because your greedy asses needs some more energy. But you don't own Greenland, so don't come crying when the natural disasters kicks in as the globe heats up. We'll probably just go there, and save those of you who needs saving. That's people like...uhm Britney Spears and people that knows a bit about the environment while having our sympathy. We don't need you catknight. You'll just start the worlds largest mass-PMS or something. We don't need that. We need people that is happiiiieeee

And don't bring hitler into it everytime I say something. He was just as sick as bush, but he wouldn't have touched Denmark. We just let him through, so go read you fucking history book again. And actually you guys bombed a danish school during the war (21. march 1945), because you didn't know wtf you were doing. Nice. Aiming you weapons at our kids. You guys are the heroes *coughcoughcough*. You did more damage than the germans did in Denamrk. The germans build us bigger roads and gave us Volkswagens. And don't try to make me give you credit for saving me, because you didn't. Actually Denmark didn't need saving, but if anyone was to get credit for saving us, I'd have to thank Sovjet and England before you. They fought from start to end, and did it good. When you came the war had already been moved into checkmate. The german defeat were already certain. So STFU!!

/me hugs Nene and gives her the big medal of homor. Finally someone got it right. Actually most of you did I guess Seeing that you guys admit that it was a mistake voting for Bush warms my heart. Maybe I'll fix a spot for you on Greenland, if you bring Britney Spears and Angelina Jolie with you

We want Clinton back. He was one of your great presidents, seen from the rest of the worlds point of view. That he used some Monica girl for fun obviously meant that he didn't have to use China and Alaska. Plz...get bush a woman and quick. Actually you should feel lucky that China didn't kill your spy-pilots and fire their big guns at you. They actually had the right to do that, looking in the treaties all over

I blame cr0bar! He voted for bush, and made his diciples di the same! I'm pretty sure he did, that is

---

Homer: Oh he card read good.

So we had Clinton who was a pimp and Bush who is a psycho circus midget. Gore is a robot programmed for good and Perot is a texan leprachaun. Cant we elect someone like Christopher Walken. Dude is a badass. He wouldnt take no shit. If china didnt give back our spy shit, we bomb them and all their little commie friend coutries too.

------------------
Radio Dj: so now that your not on saturday night live what are you gonna do?

Jim Bruer: I dont know.. fight mexicans or something.

FUHAOHB2IPDEFCIPUDQNFQFYLOEGOGB

quote:

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[hitler] was just as sick as bush,

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bullshit, right off the bat.

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but he wouldn't have touched Denmark.

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bullshit. he would have taken over and killed all the non-whites/jews as soon as he had the chance if it weren't for us and russia.

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We just let him through

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thanks i really appreciate you're apathy in contributing to letting 6 million jews be slaughtered. you're almost as bad as t he french.

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When you came the war had already been moved into checkmate.

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bullshit. check your history books. ever hear of lend-lease? if it weren't for us entering in 1941 (2 years after it started) britain and the french resistance would have been fucked up the ass.

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We want Clinton back. He was one of your great presidents,

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he didn't do anything particularly special, he just didn't happen to fuck up as badly. oh well maybe you are right on this one

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That he used some Monica girl for fun obviously meant that he didn't have to use China and Alaska

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what the fuck? that made no sense.

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We don't need you catknight.

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if you want clean electricity for more then 2 people you will

by the way, i voted for bush too, and i'm glad because gore would have made the exact same mistakes and would have been ridiculed just as much, and he's a liberal. he woulda fucked our energy situation even more.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 18, 2001 at 12:03 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by Kolben:
Actually you should feel lucky that China didn't kill your spy-pilots and fire their big guns at you. They actually had the right to do that, looking in the treaties all over

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Um, how did you come up with THAT bit of nonsense??

Our plane was in International Airspace. That means it was allowed to be there. A Chinese fighter, whose pilot was infamous for doing these sorts of stupid things, collided with the US plane. We didn't hit him, he hit us.

I believe that the actual facts are that if a plane is in trouble, it is allowed, by international agreements, to land on any airstrip that it can get to.

We did not "posture"--we stood up for our rights. The "apology" letter sent was the right thing to do, and allowed both countries to have their own interpretations, thus satisfying China and the US. The situation was not handled poorly.

And as for Clinton--he was an embarrasment to the United States. Time and time again he lied to us, stole from us, and abused his power. Do you remember the entire pot issue? His words--"I never smoked pot. Well, I smoked, but I didn't inhale." That tells me a lot, right there:

--What's the first thing he did? Lie.
--What's the second thing he did? Pose.

Who smokes pot but doesn't inhale? The fact that he did that means that he was doing ANYTHING to fit in, without actually taking a stance on it. His finger was chapped from licking it and holding it up to see which way the wind blew. He stood for nothing, and cared ONLY about his image.

Ugh, gotta stop rambling. Please, Kolben, look into the facts of some of these things and stop regurgitating the hyper-radical editorials and trying to pass them off as fact.

Thank you.

------------------
--Jynx

I used to be a kleptomaniac, but then I took something for it.

thats all i have to say about ppl who can't accept that they suck as much as the next.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
first of all i was joking. now to put you back in your place for real.

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quote:

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he would have taken over and killed all the non-whites/jews as soon as he had the chance if it weren't for us and russia.

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quote:

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thanks i really appreciate you're apathy in contributing to letting 6 million jews be slaughtered. you're almost as bad as t he french.

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britain and the french resistance would have been fucked up the ass.

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he didn't do anything particularly special, he just didn't happen to fuck up as badly. oh well maybe you are right on this one

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quote:

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if you want clean electricity for more then 2 people you will

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quote:

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by the way, i voted for bush too, and i'm glad because gore would have made the exact same mistakes and would have been ridiculed just as much, and he's a liberal. he woulda fucked our energy situation even more.

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I really didn't want to talk about 2WW, and still don't so please stop it. We discussed it once, and you got sooo mad, and I haven't been changing my oppinions

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 18, 2001 at 01:23 PM

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To resist him would be pointless. The guy had weapons up to his ears, and people to use them. The great army of Denmark was about 100.000 inexperienced soldiers. If we even tried to resist, he'd just run us over.

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ever hear of the french resistance? VIVA LA RESISTANCE!

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lol...you are funny. hitler send all of his troops to Russia.

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ever hear of the battle of britain? the constant air attacks on london? the v-1 and v-2's? the u-boats? the bismark? THE REST OF THE NAVY IN THE NORTH SEA? britain was completely blockaded for a while and was on the verge of surrender until we came in.

ok enough of this. you're wrong and i'm right. it's settled.

quote:

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Originally posted by askheaves:
We use more energy than the rest of the world, but we put it to good use. We have outstanding industry and infrastructure. It takes energy to run a nation. When it dries up, we get despirate and we panic.

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In Denmark we are hearing about heated outdoor swimmingpools. We are hearing about everybody has to have a car. Even 16 year old kids. We are hearing about the cars you drive, runs an average of 6 km/liter gasoline. We are hearing about so much airconditioning, that you have to have jackets on some places.

It takes energy to run a nation, but you aren't the only one actually. You have outstanding industry, but in my oppinion, you are just raping the environment, to have it.

pengu1nn I love you too. You are SOOOOOO cool!

everyone has a car here though because everythign is fucking far apart. its 25 miles to work for me, and 5 miles to the nearest shopping center. i imagine if you live in the country then you are self sufficient and if you live in the city then everything is close and you can ride a bikes or motorcycles places.

everyone has air conditioning here because the weather SUCKS. it's hot and humid as fuck, and i for one can't stand it. it's much cooler in most parts of europe. if you lived in a hot climate and had the resources to cool yourself off to be comfortable, then you would do it. as for the people wearing jackets because it's so cold, the only reason that might be is because some fat guy set the air conditioner way too low and everyone else is freezing. heh

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
[B] ever hear of the french resistance? VIVA LA RESISTANCE!

ever hear of the battle of britain? the constant air attacks on london? the v-1 and v-2's? the u-boats? the bismark? THE REST OF THE NAVY IN THE NORTH SEA? britain was completely blockaded for a while and was on the verge of surrender until we came in.
B]

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Because i'm too lazy to re-quote, i'll answer sequentially.

Ever hear of suicide? The French had a pretty good defensive posture when WW2 started...too bad Hitler found a way to get panzers throught the Ardennes.

As for the Battle of Britian...V1s did jack. V2s did a little, but not much and weren't even as scary as V1s because they didn't make the same noise. The U-boats were hitting the convoys from America, so if you take America out of the equation, the U-boats did jack. The Bismarck also did jack besides sink the Hood. That was bad, yes, but hardly a crippling blow to the Royal Navy. Her sister ship didn't even get out of port.

Anyway, I couldn't stay out of putting in a little WW2 commentary. The point is that the US helped during WW2, but we did not win it. If we hadn't helped them, then we probably would've been wiped out too, just afterwards. In case you didn't know, Iowa class battleships had the same problem as the Hood -- crappy deck armor. You should realize that the US did not = the great savior in WW2, and America uses 40\% of the world's resources with 5\% of the world's population (i believe those are the numbers) Yes, we are resource hogs, and yes, it is bad. Anyone who argues that we AREN'T resource hogs, is an idiot.

And kick his ass for making Europe thinking bad things about you

Frosty. to whom should I address that check, again?

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 18, 2001 at 01:57 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by Jynx:
We did not "posture"--we stood up for our rights. [snip] The situation was not handled poorly.

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"Posture" is my own personal opinion on what we did. I disagreed with the way the situation was handled. Our version of International Airspace is not the world standard. But like I said, my personal opinion. :P

quote:

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And as for Clinton--he was an embarrasment

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Clinton didn't inhale, and Bush didn't used to drink too much, and that powder really didn't have any effect. We're all happy with our spoonfed information.

I just think its interesting to hear from Kolben because he's NOT American, and therefore has a different viewpoint. Even if its just his. I've heard similar from others in Europe.

Dont worry about defending Bush to me. I work with Dr, M, a gung-ho Republican who listens to Rush Limbaugh faithfully. I've heard it all. You should hear us discuss Bush.

But we can't blame it all on Bush. Lets not forget the 50\%+ Republican congress, haha.

So anyhoo...you can always get even by posting pictures of Fergie doing weight watchers ads.

oh, i kill me

xoxox

------------------
"OH GGOD!!! NOT THE HYLIGHTER AGAIN!!! GO AWAY YOU LITTLE PEANUT HEDGEHOG!!!"
"The only thread about ME likened me to poo shaped mummy."
"Have a nice day, because monkeys don't."
-< PersonGuy >

Don't even know where to begin. I suppose the environment. Bush is taking a realist approach to the environment. He knows you can't just clearcut Alaska and carpet drill for oil. Alaska is god damned big. It's not like it's the end of the world to drill there. Some habitats are destroyed, yes... but we destroy more wetland through regular development of houses by a large scale.

The arsenic issue: They're studying this issue for 9 years, or whatever, and they come to the conclusion that 5ppm of arsenic has potential to cause cancer in lab rats, or whatever. So, Clinton ON HIS LAST DAY IN OFFICE!!!! puts this rediculous law into effect that in a few years, all water has to be under 5ppm... no matter what the cost, no matter what the source of the Arsenic is. It's not a feasible option. Water would end up costing more than fucking champaigne, and people would start drilling their own wells... and not taking the natural arsenic out. This is what's known as a political landmine... along with the CO2 restrictions, they are put in place so that the new guy has no choice but to repeal them. They aren't based in reality, they aren't founded in facts considering all angles. New studies are being funded to figure out what is the best cost/result situation. GW isn't planting arsenic in your water, and not a thing changed from the day before he lifted the restrictions and after. They were only in effect for like 20 days.

Global warming... we're luckily sitting in the most stable climate this earth has ever seen in 4 billion years, if you don't count the times where the whole thing is a molten ball of lava. In the 70's, it was well known that we were spiralling towards an ice age and were all going to freeze to death. So, they needed a reason for it, and man is the easiest scapegoat. Same thing today.

The white house is somewhat still up in the air on the energy situation. Bush released an energy plan yesterday which is a combination of supply side solutions and demand side incentives. Tax credits for low energy homes, energy awareness programs, etc. This country has gotten so environmentally nuts that we haven't wanted to touch the supply side of our energy situation. We use more energy than the rest of the world, but we put it to good use. We have outstanding industry and infrastructure. It takes energy to run a nation. When it dries up, we get despirate and we panic. California is our model on this one. They're handling the situation reasonably well. I don't want to get into their power situation (being in Arizona ), but I'm amuzed how many power plants exist on the western border of Arizona. Pretty easy to build one here

That's all I've got. I'm supposed to be working, not arguing. I voted for Bush because Gore is a psycho who would have been horrible for the country, in my humble opinion. Bush isn't the brightest bulb on the tree, but he's smart enough to surround himself by some very bright people, who really are making these decisions.

quote:

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(yknow, the think you did jack to prevent) ... standing up for other people means ... anyone to stand up f ... i would rather die nobly by standing up to hitler than hide like a bitch and say "it wouldnt have done any good anyway".

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Noone would have to stand up for us afterwards, because we wouldn't be there. And how cool is that. I'd rather live than die, and so would most of Denmark. (This is nature. Survival of your genes is always the highest priority). That your life stinks, and you'll throw it all away by trying to knock down some bully when you know you couldn't even leave a mark, is just too bad for you. And we didn't hide. Geez. hitler needed to get through, and after 4 hours of battle, we let him. I don't even think Denmark had tanks at that time. The danish people were not even a piece in the WW2 puzzle.

Scientists are working their asses off to explain why the globe heats up. After years of research, with more and more advanced equipment, the result is pointing in one single direction. That the CO2 is the cause of the problem. But because the result of this research doesn't fit perfectly into your greedy ass lifes (did you bitch about Metallicas' lawsuit vs Napster? Look at your selves!) you refuse to believe in them. Everybody in the world (even Russia) is trying desperately to reduce the waste of energy, while you proclame, that you want more. And as the only nation in the world you refuse to sign the treaty that might save us. The treaty demands that you reduce your waste of energy to an acceptable level, but instead you go in the opposite direction. And you excuse it with statements like industry and bad weather. And then you say that it's not a proven fact that human CO2 production isn't the cause. But instead of trying to actually challenge the statement, by seeing if reducing energy waste could help, you start wimpin out and whining. Thank you for hiding like a bitch and saying "it won't do any good anyway". Oops...I heard that somewhere up there.

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 19, 2001 at 05:15 AM

and even though youre not gonna respond, putting up a four hour fight is still the pussy way out of it. you let him through, and that was the worst thing you could of done. you could have at least retreated your army out to another country where they could help to outfit you with tech that could help you make a real difference. but no. you gave up. simply for that you should all be given swift kicks to the nuts. what your country did was straight up pussying out, and theres no way anyone should be able to respect that.

and no, i was completely for the metallica v napster thing, so fuck you.

CO2 is not toxic, no! CO2 is a common gas in the atmosphere, yes. But you see, my little Sithiee friend. It all works out fine when the balance between CO2 and the other atmospheric gasses is in their natural equilibrium. Then the atmosphere lets about the right amount of energy back into space for us to feel good. Keeping the earth at a nice temperature. But when you burn coal, oil and other stuff in the amount you do in the US, you produce so much CO2 that you mess up the balance. This means that the atmosphere holds on to more energy than it used to therefore heats up the earth. This will create more water, as the poles melt, resulting in a larger exchange of water from the seas to the air, creating more wind, creating more storms making more funny blackouts in the US, so you have to use more energy to keep up you present level. This is just one of the sideeffects other than the damn heat.

And god Damn it. It's an almost proven fact that too much CO2 is messing up the atmosphere. The weather people are actually talking about the fact that we might have an iceage just now. But because of the global warming we can't feel it. Well...better dig out the shorts for when the iceage is over.

And no I'm gonna respond anyways because you are stupid and can't understand nothing.

quote:

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you could have at least retreated your army out to another country

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quote:

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your country did was straight up pussying out

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quote:

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and theres no way anyone should be able to respect that.

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And fuck you too. The Metallica vs Napster wasn't even directed at you. ARG...you take everything so god damn personal. (Don't even bother. I already know your answer to this one. Try to surprise me)

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
There is only wrong problem with your reasoning pg: scientists have found PROOF that there is global warming.

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This may sound very stuborn, close-minded, and illogical... but I've heard about that and I STILL don't belive it! I'll just go with all those other responces, but even if they're wrong... ever seen "Wag the Dog"? Not too unrealistic... especially with crap concerning scientific 'data'.

I guess my main thing is that we don't live in a controlled environment... we live in the experiment and it's impossible to test our entire planet for the effects of almost anything!

But anyway... I don't really know ANYTHING about this subject, I just REFUSE to belive it and I don't think anyone will ever convice me otherwise...

------------------
"OH GGOD!!! NOT THE HYLIGHTER AGAIN!!! GO AWAY YOU LITTLE PEANUT HEDGEHOG!!!"
"The only thread about ME likened me to poo shaped mummy."
"Have a nice day, because monkeys don't."
-< PersonGuy >

quote:

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Originally posted by Kolben:
In Europe we've just concluded that George Bush is one sick twisted person. Or maybe his just dumb, and good at being it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
CO2, which is unnatural remember

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thats what i saw, when i reread it, i saw what you said, sorry i accused you of being an idiot

and kolben, the fact remains that where theres a will theres a way. your people pussied out, because i (doubt im the only one) refuse to believe that there was no way for them to help. and it doesnt mater if youre country was surrounded by water, dont you have boats? planes? and about me pussying out in the same situation, your dead wrong. i dont take shit from people, if someone steals something from me, i get it back, if someone does something to me, i get them back. if someone invaded my house, i wouldnt go down without a fight. im sorry if you dont have enough self respect to stand up for yourself, but thats why youre a pussy. DEAL WITH IT.

No, we had no means of getting our army out of the country. Read impossible. Well maybe a few soldiers could go on our fishing boats to Sweden (the only place to go) and do what the sedish army did. Nothing. Planes HAHA!!! Yeah right. Understand this. The danish army was set decades back in WW1 (didn't you know that? But you are so smart, and you know everything). We had nothing. And we didn't have any eiger to build it up again. We do not like war. Everybodys not war sick like you. We HATE war. We do anything to avoid it. And before you even learn ANYTHING about Denmark, and our history, and our way of living you should stfu. You don't know the geography. You don't know the purposes we had, and you don't know the situation we were in. In fact...you don't know shit, and you weren't even there.

OMG! I think you are the stupidest person I've ever had a discussion with. To fight a hopeless battle that would get you killed for sure, is rediculous. I'd rather live in good and bad and have a life, than being dead and have nothing. And I have ALL the self respect a person could ever get. My conscience is crystal clear. If someone comes to me asking for help, I'll help them. But if they ask me to kill a man, I'll tell them to do it themselves.

And Sithiee. The ones in Denmark not surrendering to the Germans ended up dead. So you'd be dead if you were here and you wouldn't even have won the country back. Nice move there. Cool to have self respect when you are dead. And don't even try to make me feel guilty. I wasn't there either. Fuckhead!

Another thing is purely strategy analysis. If Denmark had put up a bigger fight the Germans would have been slowed down. Then they would reach Soviet by summertime, and then they'd have kicked Soviet asses. Uh oh. Then they would have gotten the oil they needed, and then they'd go kick US asses.

/me is tired of Sithiee
/me tells Sithiee to go masturbate to a war movie instead of making himself look bad
/ignore Sithiee

Stop talking to me about that fucking war. Please get it this time!! My English is not THAT bad.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kolben:
But you are so smart, and you know everything

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where did i claim to know everything? no, i just said your country was full of cowards. no, i dont know the specifics of what happened in denmark, other than what YOU have said. from what YOU have said, i gathered that basically hitler walked in, and denmark pretty much dropped their pants, pointed to their assholes and said "in here sir!" thats what i have a problem with.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
i just said your country was full of cowards.

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There's a thin line between cowardice and good tactics.

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And as the only nation in the world you refuse to sign the treaty that might save us.

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wrong. there are only a handful of countries that have agreed to the kyoto protocals, which only plan to decrease CO2 by 5-10\% in 20 years. not only that, but countries can trade pollution points, effectively nullifying the benefits.

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WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WE BREATHE OUT???? thats right, CO2.

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the normal amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is about 1\%. the amount we (as in ALL LIVING THINGS) metabolise is didleyshit compared to what industry has pumped out in the last 100 years.

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so if youre really paranoid about the CO2 situation, start planting trees and bushes. dont bitch about how we use energy, thats our business, not yours.

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there are already a ton of trees and such. that is hardly a solution.

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as the poles melt, resulting in a larger exchange of water from the seas to the air, creating more wind, creating more storms making more funny blackouts in the US,

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someone has been taking waterworld too seriously. besides what does that have to do with blackouts (which we have not been experiencing anywhere in the US)

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The weather people are actually talking about the fact that we might have an iceage just now

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riiight....the weather people! lets all trust the weather people for now on!

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People didn't believe Galilao when he said the Earth revolved around the Sun.

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thats copernicus not (sic) Galilao

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People laughted at Columbus for his idea.

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that the earth was round? that's just an urban myth told to elementary schoolers. even the greeks knew the earth was round.

and personguy - it is commonly accepted that global warming is occuring, although the degree to which and the effects of which are still being studied.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
it is commonly accepted that global warming is occuring, although the degree to which and the effects of which are still being studied.

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It's commonly accepted... but not by me. Sure... things very from year to year, and for all I know everything will be 10 degrees more in 10 years (which is a DRASTIC change, BTW). And if I'm somehow wrong I still don't belive that it's mostly OUR fault.

------------------
"OH GGOD!!! NOT THE HYLIGHTER AGAIN!!! GO AWAY YOU LITTLE PEANUT HEDGEHOG!!!"
"The only thread about ME likened me to poo shaped mummy."
"Have a nice day, because monkeys don't."
-< PersonGuy >

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
No, both Galileo and Capernicus said it. Galileo was first, and he was forced by the church to renounce it or else they were going to put him in jail. A while later, Capernicus reserected this idea, and it was accepted a little easier.

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Am I an idiot or did he say that backwards?

Bush just got into office and is trying to learn his role. One of the things that he has an advantage for is that he's in the beginning of 4 long years. This means he has to be less politically aware, and can do things that are right. There are crazy environmental regulations that don't take into account costs and impacts. They make a blanket statement to do this or that because we love our baby seals or what-the-fuck-ever.

I give credit to Bush. He's doing a fine job. His group is planning things out well and looking at more than what is popular... they are going for what is effective. He's going to be unpopular for a while. He's going to piss some tree-huggers and baby-seal lovers off... because their beliefs are not founded in reality. You have to get through the next 10 years alive in order to get to your plans for 20 years from now.

In California, the only reason they have enough power is because they've fired up a whole bunch of old, less clean power plants. Short sightedness led to a situation where they had to thrash and get desperate in order to survive. We don't want to be in that situation from either end. Conservation is great, increasing supply side is great. These aren't mutually exclusive ideas. I'm impressed by the fact that for the first time in 8 years our country is working on an energy policy. You can't blame Bush for destroying the world in 120 days. A hell of a lot of that was put into effect well before he got there.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
and kolben, the fact remains that where theres a will theres a way. your people pussied out, because i (doubt im the only one) refuse to believe that there was no way for them to help. and it doesnt mater if youre country was surrounded by water, dont you have boats? planes? and about me pussying out in the same situation, your dead wrong. i dont take shit from people, if someone steals something from me, i get it back, if someone does something to me, i get them back. if someone invaded my house, i wouldnt go down without a fight. im sorry if you dont have enough self respect to stand up for yourself, but thats why youre a pussy. DEAL WITH IT.

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LOL, oh my god, Sithiee. Okay, we'll go slowly here. People did not pussy out. There was nothing they could do. Your idea of not going down without a fight applying to everyone is moronic, because you seem to think that everyone had a weapon. Guess what. If you put up a fight at all, AT ALL, even if you cussed at one of the soldiers, they pop off one round and you're dead. Or maybe lets say you found a rifle somewhere. Chances are it's WW1 vintage bolt action. So you kill one person, maybe two. That makes no difference. And if you try and say something about how it would stop those two people from doing whatever they did, then i'm going to cyber-slap you, because war = numbers. Two grunts mean SHIT in the grand scheme of things.

Evacuation? Yeah, right. Like he said, the country was surrounded and there was nowhere to go. (in the event that the soldiers did want their countrypersons being left behind) Now you don't seem to be real up to date with technology and all, so i'll let you in on a little something -- there wasn't a such thing as a boeing 747 in 1940. What the hell were they supposed to do, jump into some dirgibles and float away? Evacuating an army is not as easy as it sounds. Did you think the Germans were going to just stand around while a bunch of people ran North to get in some boats? Although I haven't researched it, I HIGHLY doubt that the Danish infantry were mechanized in any manner, and even if they were, the Panzer III was extremely effective. And fast.

Sithiee, please. Learn a little about strategy, tactics and logistics, then come back and talk military. Don't sit there and say you'd die to kill a German or two in the name of your country, because if you were in that situation, you would've done the same thing they did. Fight until it really is hopeless, then surrender. Even the best men give up.

So- George Bush. Let me start with a disclaimer / background information : First, I work for the U.S. Government, specifically Lawrence Berkeley National Labs which is run by the US Department of Energy. I definately consider myself a liberal. I voted for Gore in the last election, and Clinton twice before that.

That said, here are some things I don't like about Bush :

Recession, recession, recession. This is always a Republican favorite, so it's no surprise to me that Recession is looming again in a lot of people's minds. The figures show that we're not having one and probably won't any time soon. The Federal Reserve bank probably does more to combat recession than "tax relief," but such things don't matter to Dubya.

Energy, energy, energy. Dubya is using California's energy crisis to attack one of the Republican's most hated things : the environment. Sure, the situation here in Cali isn't great, but it's not due to environmental laws; it's due to MISMANAGEMENT.

Our state has been relying on the fact that we are one of the < most energy efficient states > with an < energy growth rate less than the national average. > It's expensive to build power plants here due to high population density, a high cost of land, and the fact that running power lines through mountains (we have a lot of those) costs a lot of money. So the Big Cheese types decided we didn't need more power plants, which unfortunately we do. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE AN ENERGY CRUNCH HERE!!!! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TREE HUGGING HIPPIES OR FROGS OR SPOTTED OWLS. IT HAS TO DO WITH BAD MANAGEMENT.

Republicans *HATE* environmental laws, because it puts limits on their unfettered greed... and, as Reagan once said, "greed is good." Yeah, right.

Nuclear war. Did you notice how you didn't worry about the Chinese until Bush took office? That's because there wasn't anything to worry about. Clinton made a lot of progress in terms of making peace with China. One of the things he did right was HE DIDN'T THREATEN THEM!!!!! He found out what they wanted from us (mostly trade and knowledge) and worked with them. He told them we wanted to trade with them, he told them we would be happy to assist them in establishing the rule of law, he told them that a country with such a long and distinguished history should definately have a place in the global economy, he told them we didn't think much of their record on human rights but that we were willing to work with them and that in the end it was their job to make sure their people were treated fairly... and the Chinese bigwigs loved it, because that is what they want.

And why not? The Chinese are well aware of their backwater status in the world culture. What they want, more than anything, is to be recognized for what they are : a country over two thousand years old, rich in culture and knowledge and spirit. They are well aware that their economic system and their style of government doesn't working and needs to change. I've met more than a few businessmen that have come back from China, and they ALL say that what the Chinese really want is knowledge about how to run an economy and a government - and that when an American helps them out, they are VERY greatful!!!

But does that matter to Dubya? No. Republicans always need a war somewhere to hold on to power - and hmm, let's see, COMMUNISM is always a good threat, so let's play it up!!!! Hell, we need a space-based missile defense system to make sure the Yellow Menace doesn't nuke us!!! w00tah, Texas rides again!

there's more, but I'll stop for now. Discuss.

moral of this story?

kill the president!

and just in case this missed the secret government filters...bomb/terrorists/secret/nuke/bush/gun/jfk/kill/assasinate/ass/gurls/feck/cock/piss/partridge

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on May 20, 2001 at 05:33 PM

quote:

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Galileo was first, and he was forced by the church to renounce it or else they were going to put him in jail. A while later, Capernicus reserected this idea, and it was accepted a little easier

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ahahahhaha......HAHAHAHHA..........no.

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It's commonly accepted... but not by me

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are you one of those weirdos that thinks the moon landings were just hollywood stunts too? it's basic chemistry what we are doing to the air.

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Did you notice how you didn't worry about the Chinese until Bush took office?

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BUSH DIDN'T FUCKING CRASH THE PLANE! STOP BLAMING HIM FOR IT! YEESH! and don't be like "well clinton wouldn't have threatened them" because he certainly would have.

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apparently that things gonna take till the middle of thiscentury (2500AD)

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middle of the century = 2050 (which is the estimate for the decay time of CFC's) not 2500, which would be the middle of the millenium.

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Originally posted by Frosty:
blah blah blah stupid stuff

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if i had your views on logistics and shit, right now, i wouldnt be half the person i am today. from what you suggest, in middle school, when i was surrounded by 20 guys who wanted to beat me up for no reason, i should have given up, right? even though they were twice the size and could have killed me. right? wrong. the first time, i got my ass kicked. the second time i took one down with me. by the end of the year they were all my bitches. you know why? because i dont take shit. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY. did you see enemy at the gates? 1 guy took a bolt action rifle and killed 5 others. have you seen stargate? yeah, a lot of their people died, but they won in the end. granted, stargate didnt happen, but thet point is the same. if you want something bad enough, if you have the will to win, then you will. in the above situation, if i had done what denmark did, i would have been picked on all my life, right up until now. if you actually think there are situations that are unwinnable, then that is just sad. no situation is a kobiashi maru.

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BUSH DIDN'T FUCKING CRASH THE PLANE! STOP BLAMING HIM FOR IT! YEESH! and don't be like "well clinton wouldn't have threatened them" because he certainly would have.

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Zuh? Clinton was China's bitch.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:

ahahahhaha......HAHAHAHHA..........no.

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I just checked my physics books, and you are right. I humbly stand corrected. Copernicus was the one who said that the Earth revolves around the Sun, not the other way around.

quote:

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Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Wake up, people. The rest of the world hates Bush because they can see him for what he is : a greedy, wormish oil man from Texas whose only job as President is to help his frat buddies get richer. The rest of the world liked Clinton because they saw him as a man who was seriously interested in the idea that the United States of America could and should play well with the other kids.

---

I don't seem to understand you guys attitude towards the environmental problems. Scientists are proving that CO2 is a problem, and you just refuse to believe it. It's like saying "water is not H2O" and hold on to the oppinion when everybody proves you wrong. This is a problem that everybody on earth has, and a problem the US is directly responsible for (well..more than us anyway). You are the only ones refusing to believe it is a problem. Well, maybe there's some small countries around, doing the same as you, but with you being their oh so great heroes they'll only follow your footsteps and no others.

But the fact is, that this remains a problem. Everybody except the US and their discibles are working their asses off to produce valid solutions to the problem. And at the same time we use so little energy that we barely get by. We have resources to produce the energy, but we are not using them. Knowing that, how do you think it looks when some big fatty in the US is burning off tons of gasoline, with no concern at all, because he doesn't BELIEVE in the facts. I often hear people bitching about europeans blaming USA for everything, but look at the situations we've been discussing. Try really hard to look at them objectively. Is there anything indicating that you are not to blame? I don't blame USA for everything. Only the things where you are to blame. But if you feel like it's everything, maybe you should reconsider your behavior. Instead of wanting to rule the world try to cooperate in making the world a nice place to be. Please! That's all we're asking.

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 21, 2001 at 02:37 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:

CLINTON EARNED THEIR RESPECT BY TREATING CHINA AS A NATION OF HUMAN BEINGS RATHER THAN A BUNCH OF NO-GOOD CHINKS. If the plane crash had happened under Clinton's administration, honestly, the Chinese would have probably held the crew a day or so and then sent them home. It would NOT have been the unnecessary standoff that it was, because Clinton would have not been up on his soap box acting as if HE was the shit, and the CHINESE were a bunch of brainless chinks whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the American Way of Life.

Wake up, people. The rest of the world hates Bush because they can see him for what he is : a greedy, wormish oil man from Texas whose only job as President is to help his frat buddies get richer. The rest of the world liked Clinton because they saw him as a man who was seriously interested in the idea that the United States of America could and should play well with the other kids.

---

I'm going to resist the "aahhaaa ahahahah" used by some other people in this tread, but wake up and smell the coffee, mate.

The rest of the world see Clinton & Bush as the same; greedy, druggy, dishonest politicians, who have their own interests first, and *everyone* elses's second.

Clinton has *persistently* proven that he has no spine; China has one of the worst human rights records on the planet, and have consistently been given Most Favoured Nation trading status by the USA, because Clinton lacked the courage of his moral convictions.

When the collision took place (IN International Airspace), the whole affair was unavoidable; China wanted to stamp it's authority on another US president, and Bush Wasn't Buying.

Don't get me wrong; I think Bush is a moron, and should have had the moral courage to sign the kyoto (sp?) accords and pull the process along, but the china thing actually wasn't his fault.

By the way, I forget who said that the USA's interpretation of international Airspace wasn't world standard, but you're living on another planet; *China* is using a non-standard, over-grabbing definition of their airspace.

T

------------------
Vi Forever! (or at least till you figure out how to quit..)

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Scientists are proving that CO2 is a problem, and you just refuse to believe it.

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that's not true, we are fully aware of our actions. we just aren't willing to just drop everything and live like europeans just because you do.

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Everybody except the US and their discibles are working their asses off to produce valid solutions to the problem.

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the US is the PRIMARY country LEADING THE WAY for better environment. we have spent BILLIONS on CO2 scrubbers, new power sources, electric/hybrid cars, and higher efficiency systems.

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Try really hard to look at them objectively

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you first

And it's not only europeans that try changing their way of life, to reduce environmental problems. Actually you, along with a few exceptions, are the only ones not doing it.

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the US is the PRIMARY country LEADING THE WAY for better environment.

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And yes, you are fully aware of your actions, but you do not care about the consecuenses they might have. This is what I meant when saying you refuse to believe the facts. This is a major attitude problem, not respected anywhere else in the world. If the reality doesn't suit you, then you start making up excuses and start disagreeing with the scientists. But the scientists are more qualified than you to produce facts.

I'm not saying, that we're perfect, but at least we try.

About objectivity. I am very objective about this. But when objectivity points a negative finger at you it's difficult to even talk about the problem with you. Because (don't kill me for saying this) a generel american attitude is putting the fingers in the ears yelling "I'm not listeniiiing" whenever there's a problem. Actually I was hoping that you didn't. And most of you actually didn't so thank you for that.

But you Catknight...grrr

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But the scientists are more qualified than you to produce facts.

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I am the scientists I'm also an engineer who helps make things as efficient as possible (and use taxpayer's dollars to read detnet at work hehe).

So just to summarize: You think that I'm just a fat american driving a huge SUV and wasting tons of electricity while I smoke cigars and laugh at poor people. Well that's close, but you still got a long way to go. In reality, you are comparing a huge industrialized nation as large as your entire continent to a tiny little country filled with...wait what do people from denmark even do?

edit:

quote:

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a generel american attitude is putting the fingers in the ears yelling "I'm not listeniiiing"

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you call that objective?

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 21, 2001 at 07:45 AM

AND GOD DAMNIT!!! Don't take everything I say so fucking personal. I wasn't talking about YOU. I was talking about europeans prejudice towards americans.

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you call that objective?

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I'm gonna give up soon. You simple aren't capable of understanding what I'm saying. I'll take an english course or something and come back, though I doubt it would help even a bit.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
are you one of those weirdos that thinks the moon landings were just hollywood stunts too?

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LOL... no. All I'm saying is when they say (I'm going to MAKE-UP a #) the earth is about 16,000,000,000 years old, you have to assume that they could be off by a couple million years! When you try to judge the temperature of something as large as the Earth there's a VERY large margin of error... and a 1\% increase (which could very well be a 1\% DECREASE if it were possible to study it in a CONTROLLED environment) isn't enough to make me run for the hills OR unplug the toaster at night.

------------------
"OH GGOD!!! NOT THE HYLIGHTER AGAIN!!! GO AWAY YOU LITTLE PEANUT HEDGEHOG!!!"
"The only thread about ME likened me to poo shaped mummy."
"Have a nice day, because monkeys don't."
-< PersonGuy >

kolben-have you heard of a thing called Natural Economics? it's where you take into account all natural resources into your opportunity costs equation. by doing this, you can see that the cost of giving up what we have now, we would loose much more then if we continue production, and gradually change our ways.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vigilante:
Zuh? Clinton was China's bitch.

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No, it's the other way around. China was Clinton's bitch. Did you ever see the debate that he had with their premier? it was amazing to watch... both men struck me as being very intelligent, and honestly interested in working together.

Here's some news for all you morons who think that the threat of WAR is the most effective tool ever:

CLINTON EARNED THEIR RESPECT BY TREATING CHINA AS A NATION OF HUMAN BEINGS RATHER THAN A BUNCH OF NO-GOOD CHINKS. If the plane crash had happened under Clinton's administration, honestly, the Chinese would have probably held the crew a day or so and then sent them home. It would NOT have been the unnecessary standoff that it was, because Clinton would have not been up on his soap box acting as if HE was the shit, and the CHINESE were a bunch of brainless chinks whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the American Way of Life.

Jesus... if a Chinese plane crashed in this country, you don't think we'd detain them??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... and if China started threatening to BOMB us, would we have willingly given them back? Yeah, like we'd let America lose face like that... and of course, we'd be right for that, but when the Chinese do that they're WRONG and a MENACE that needs to be defended against by reviving "Star Wars"???

Clinton would've been cool with the Chinese... he'd dialed up the Premier and say "I've got a bunch of upset people over here... you know, these guys have families.... you understand. They'll be back tomorrow? Cool. Thanks." And that would've been that.

Wake up, people. The rest of the world hates Bush because they can see him for what he is : a greedy, wormish oil man from Texas whose only job as President is to help his frat buddies get richer. The rest of the world liked Clinton because they saw him as a man who was seriously interested in the idea that the United States of America could and should play well with the other kids.

Every country has it's fringe of idiotic zealots who will fall for anything, as long as you wave the flag enough and tell them that their country is the greatest, toughest, most deserving nation ever to exist on the planet, and that all those other people are dangerous and out to get them. Unfortunately our country has more than our fair share of this people... even supposedly smart people like CatKnight.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on May 21, 2001 at 12:26 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
if i had your views on logistics and shit, right now, i wouldnt be half the person i am today. from what you suggest, in middle school, when i was surrounded by 20 guys who wanted to beat me up for no reason, i should have given up, right? even though they were twice the size and could have killed me. right? wrong. the first time, i got my ass kicked. the second time i took one down with me. by the end of the year they were all my bitches. you know why? because i dont take shit. WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY. did you see enemy at the gates? 1 guy took a bolt action rifle and killed 5 others. have you seen stargate? yeah, a lot of their people died, but they won in the end. granted, stargate didnt happen, but thet point is the same. if you want something bad enough, if you have the will to win, then you will. in the above situation, if i had done what denmark did, i would have been picked on all my life, right up until now. if you actually think there are situations that are unwinnable, then that is just sad. no situation is a kobiashi maru.

---

Your analogy is seriously flawed. This isn't a playground fight we're talking about. And even if it was, you're messed up. For the sake of your mind, we'll just alter your situation. Lets say that these big bully guys didn't want to beat you up. Lets say that they just wanted to be the king of the playground you're on. You don't really care cause you just play hopscotch by yourself or one of your pals, but this guy says that he's going to KILL YOU if you oppose him. You're a scrawny little fuck. If you resist, you're not coming back. There isn't any "the second time." You're gone.

Furthermore, you just lost all credibility by giving scenes from movies. REMEMBER IN DIE HARD WHEN BRUCE WILLIS WENT APE AND SHOT UP ALL THOSE DUDES? You can't compare like that pal, SORRY. And if you actually think that you can win any situation, THAT is just sad.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
ahahaahahha here we go AGAIN.

middle of the century = 2050 (which is the estimate for the decay time of CFC's) not 2500, which would be the middle of the millenium.

---

oh i'm sorry i mispelled it sorry for not living up to your perfect standards! no there there its all right dont cry catshite no everythings going to be alright ...pfft bloody engineers had one too many P.S.I's up their ass

------------------
Homer as Krusty episode:

lil kid: STOP IT STOP IT he's already dead!

quote:

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Originally posted by Trog:
The rest of the world see Clinton & Bush as the same

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That's not the impression I'm getting. Clinton seems to be pretty well liked except in his own country, and perhaps South Africa. Which makes sense... after all, the Democrats were all for cutting you guys off when apartheid was in plave. I don't think the white Afrikaaners are going to like the Democrats any time soon.

quote:

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Clinton has *persistently* proven that he has no spine; China has one of the worst human rights records on the planet, and have consistently been given Most Favoured Nation trading status by the USA, because Clinton lacked the courage of his moral convictions.

---

Um, no. Clinton had the right idea : it's a lot easier to get democracy, capitalism, etc. going in a nation that you're FRIENDS with. Banning trade with China and building space shields etc. may make us feel good, but it's not going to encourage the Chinese to change their ways any time soon. China has been dipping its toes into the waters of capitalism. Clinton was helping them dive in.

Here's an interesting tidbit : it's not the Workers, or the Peasants, or the Poor and Oppressed who make the push for democracy. Historically it's been the MIDDLE class, because the middle class has money and other interests to protect and aren't real fond of being told how to do their job or run their business. China has a very small middle class at the moment. To truly get democracy there, there MUST be a substantial middle class... which is why Clinton pushed (and got) MFN status for China. Let 'em get rich first; democracy will follow.

quote:

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oh i'm sorry i mispelled it sorry for not living up to your perfect standards! no there there its all right dont cry catshite no everythings going to be alright

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hmm lets run trough that again.

dkb: hey...he's LAUGHING AT ME! DIE!!
cat: re-read post
dkb: ...
dbk: oh he wasn't laughing at me he just calmly pointed out my big error which was somewhat relavent to the conversation. my mistake.

quote:

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Originally posted by Frosty:
Your analogy is seriously flawed. This isn't a playground fight we're talking about. And even if it was, you're messed up. For the sake of your mind, we'll just alter your situation. Lets say that these big bully guys didn't want to beat you up. Lets say that they just wanted to be the king of the playground you're on. You don't really care cause you just play hopscotch by yourself or one of your pals, but this guy says that he's going to KILL YOU if you oppose him. You're a scrawny little fuck. If you resist, you're not coming back. There isn't any "the second time." You're gone.

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ok, see heres the problem with your analogy. if you let them win, then you have nowhere to go. and even in that situation, no matter how little you believe me, i would still fight back. you dont seem to understand, odds dont matter to me, if i feel ive been really wronged, im gonna do something about it. i think everyone should be the same way. did you see dirty work? "dont take shit from no one" everyone should be so enlightened. i think its sad that you let people walk over you.

quote:

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[B}Furthermore, you just lost all credibility by giving scenes from movies. REMEMBER IN DIE HARD WHEN BRUCE WILLIS WENT APE AND SHOT UP ALL THOSE DUDES? You can't compare like that pal, SORRY. And if you actually think that you can win any situation, THAT is just sad.[/B]

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and yeah, i can compare, because my examples were valid. the first one, where vasili takes the bolt action rifle and kills those guys, thats not entirely unrealistic. the second, with stargate, if youve seen the movie, youd understand (i dont know if you have.) the entire civilization was ra's bitch, because his guards had those weapons. and for a long time they were too scared to stand up to them, and then they fought back. yes, a lot of their people died, but they still won. this is my point. they didnt take shit from them, because they were willing to die rather than take shit from ra. in your example, your just being an idiot. yes, i suppose technically those situations could happen. but thats a purely action movie. both movies i cited were not, because they werent completely unrealistic.

you can take it in the ass from bullies all you want, and maybe you like that, but i personally dont like taking it in the ass, so when people give me shit, i hand it right back. its called standing up for myself. something you apparently dont understand.

But to see George Bush proclaim that he would increase energy production, when you allready produce too much, compared to other countries, really really really pisses me off.

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 21, 2001 at 12:44 PM

quote:

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The rest of the world see Clinton & Bush as the same

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kolben:
a line between standing up for one self and being stupid. A line you FAIL to to see.

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there is no line. theres a line between standing up for ones self and pussying out. if youre standing up for what is right, then youre not being stupid. was MLK jr. being stupid when he stood up for black rights even though it made him a target of racists? he put himself in mortal danger, and he did get killed, so i guess by your definition, he was being stupid.

Are you saying that people have to be like MLK if they are not pussies? Then there's only very few people that wasn't. And why the hell aren't you out fighting for some rights getting yourself killed? Uhm...because you are a fucking pussy...! And yes he was stupid! He was a fucking nut, risking his and his familys life. But that doesn't mean that I don't respect him for it. The man was a hero...

Try do understand this. You, Sithiee are fucking annoying. In my oppinion you are worse than the lamers around spamming shit in forums, because you stick to lame discussions, about stuff noone gives a shit about, while pissing people off. And you do not only stick to them. You say that no one should respect a person if you don't respect them (WTF...who do you think you are?). You must be the stupidest person alive. It was a mistake that you ever learned to write. Let me give you a hint: You are NOT a God.

Please go away Sithiee. PLEEEEEAAAASE.

Stop this discussion. There's NOTHING IN THE WHOLE WORLD that can compare with WW2, so just shut up. You trying to convince people otherwise just makes you look dumber. What Denmark did was the ONLY thing to do, if we wanted the danish people to survive. This is basic nature, and if you don't get it, then I see little or no hope for you in your life. Trying to win a discussion, where you know nothing about the background is just plain dumb. But anyways...nice to meet you (NOT), and please leave me alone from now on. Do you get it this time? Your input is not important to me. Now that I do not respect you at all, I can't ever trust your words, and you can't ever say anything that I can use. You could live your life for 100 years or die this second, and I wouldn't even care if you'd just stfu. Go to hell...

quote:

---

AHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAH! HERE WE GO AGAIN!

---

First: I would have dumped a cruse missile with an incendiary round right into the front windshield of our plane sitting on the ground over there. To the first person to complain I would have looked them dead in the eye and recited his home address. Then calmly tell them that a transport plane is on the way to pick up my people.

Second: I just want to point out that the government cut all funding for Fusion research. This is clean, free, toxic waste free, electricity. The only thing you get is some waste heat that you use to drive a seawater treatment plant to provide drinking water. This was done by Clinton. I also want to point out that no other country has picked up the project.

Third: There has not been a nuke plant built since TMI. This is kind of stupid. We need the power. Build the nuke plants.

Fourth: Anyone that does not stand up to an invading dictator should not mouth off about it being the "only thing we could do." Hell, out numbered and out gunned we got rid of our dictator over 200 years ago. Don't tell us that there was nothing you could do. You grab your fucking balls as a people and you fight. If you don't, you must be on the side of the dictator. I would rather be exterminated because I chose to fight than survive with the knowledge that I, as a people, let a person through that murdered millions of innocent NON-COMBATANTS. Remember, one man with heart can change the world with a single shot, just think what an entire group of people can do in there own house.

Fifth: As for George W. He is a fucking moron that we, as a people, did not vote into office(not that gore was any better). That process needs to be changed. That is wrong and that is fucked up. But, guess who will be changing it. The same fucking morons that got voted in by it.

I think I'm done.

------------------
Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

quote:

---

"calmly" pointing out my mistake?

---

that laughing was at the begining of my post and was referring to demonk actin' a foo' and did not apply to the whole thing.

quote:

---

e was one of the best presidents you've had recently.

---

what, since Bush Sr.?

quote:

---

as a people, did not vote into office

---

no matter how you look at it, around 50\% of the voters did vote for him, so you can't be like "he doesn't deserve to be president" because he won fair and squaw'

as for fusion-as much as i'd like that to be true guys, we are still a good 2-4 decades away from useable fusion technology. thats 40 years of dedicated research with lots of money, which isn't going on now. even if sustainable fusion is reached, you're still paying ฤ billion for a 1 GW reactor (enough to power a suburb), which is like 1000 times more expensive then electricity now.

as for kolben and his US energy policy bitching, you have no understanding of how the economy works apparantly. we don't have enough power to run the country right now. not a good time to cut back, really. good time to build more power plants and drill more oil to prevent a recession. also, you complain about us using so much oil and getting cheap gas, well i'm all in favor of a gas tax here. it would get people to stop being morons and buying SUV's. however, you can't just instantly say "ok gas is now 3 times more expensive. have a good day". that would lead to a recession that would have world-wide consequences. we are gradually increasing the price of oil naturally, which is the way to go.

from what i have gathered:

Kolben needs to goto hell, he is a selfcentric, egotistical bitch who needs something to blame for his lack of balls, this happens to be the us. denmark this, that, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, denmark blah, hi, all i can talk about is how much better denmark is compared to the us. here we like to help ppl and let them go through our country to kill more ppl cause we are a bunch of panise ass bitches. but have you heard the latest from denmark? well you know denmark just.... ah yes, here in denmark we are all better than the us, other than the fact that we are pussies. the us uses lots of power blah blah blah, its not because they are the biggest industrialised nation in the world, its because they're not like ppl here in good ol denmark.

if everyone in denmark is like you maybe hitler targeted the wrong ppl. kolben you say your opened minded but you just can't seem to get that denmark stick out of your ass. you should open up your maind alittle more than the borders of denmark and quit trying to be better. i don't say i'm better than denmark, i don't say my contry is better, i preffer to be equals (minus the whole more ppl/land/money thing) until you want to talk shit about me and my country, after you do that you lose my respect, everytime you have spoke up here it has been about my country, i don't nessicarliy mind that except for the fact that you think you are some much fucking better that everyone else. my advice to you would be to fall off you high horse, learn that your not the best, and of course FUCK OFF.

thank you for you time over in denmark.

"this one time in denmark"
(hahahahahaha, couldn't resist)

oh ya, if your pissed you had to read this long post about denmark just blame the us, cause denmark would have done it better and faster and it would have meet the energy bill signed by some ppl in denmark, for the denmark energy convention in denmark

But your forgetting one thing. Once we have the technology and know how to start the reactions, it will be insanly cheap to produce more fusion plants. But you are probably right about it taking decades, but not 3-4, more like 1-2. So what if it is expensive? The high initial cost now will be more than made up for very quickly once we have it up and running. Diverting the funds to build older power plants will end up costing us more in the future.

We only have a finite amount of fossil fuels on the planet. You can't argue that, it is fact. By increasing our relience on them, we will deplete them faster. You talk about a recession(which is not really happening, but that's for another thread), but what about the recession when we run COMPLETELY out of fossil fuels? It's not like we can suddenly create an alternative power source. We must be planing for the future now and be working on fusion power, or maybe even anti-matter, since we do know how to create that. But what should I expect. Most of us in the US can't plan for more than 2 months in advance anyway, so I'm shit out of luck asking any one to plan for 20 years down the road. Guess I better become a multi-trillionare soon so that I can build my own moon colony and get the hell of this rock before it all goes down the toilet.

First (stealing from Wolfguards model : Sithiee, shut the fuck up. I don't want to hear WWII shit in this thread. The only relavence it has is that Denmark hasn't always been the perfect utopia that it is today. It had to work very hard, without using more than 3 Joules of energy, to get to it's happy-go-lucky puppy-fucking free-love way.

Second: Shut up, Denmark representative. I didn't see a color glossy brouchure, but I'm almost sure you were trying to get us to move there... or vacation there... where you would hit us in the head with rocks as we sleep... or something.

Third: I don't care if Bush is a moron. I personally don't think he is, but I know for a fact that he isn't the only guy running the show. There's a host of some very bright people whispering in his ear. I'm comfortable with that. And he is not an evil person bent on making oil money. There's easier ways to make oil money than be the leader of the free world.

Fourth: Clinton wasn't a great leader. He was a bastard that was spineless. More concerned about his own image than his effects. And people didn't hate him because of Monica. People hated him 5 years before that, but it got blown up so big because of that hatred. He was a lying bastard and was lying to the whole world and called it diplomacy.

Fifth: I'll talk of the auto industry, because that's my area of expertise at this point. The US has some very clean cars. The SUVs may take in far more gas, but overall all that is coming out of the back of those vehicles is CO2. I'd prefer CO2 to the other crap that can come out. Like, CO, NO, NO2, N2O, various simple HCs, complex chain HCs, alkanes, alkeynes, aromatics, etc. In the US, we are actually attempting to do things like emissions controls and emission detection, where the rest of the world does very little about that. That's the business I'm in... and the US is the only place you'll find that sort of business. That doesn't take care of consumption, but at least it's an attempt to get rid of that yellow haze sitting above your cities every morning... that's NOx, if you're curious.

Finally: As for how horrible the US is. We're hated because we're the biggest, and people are jealous of how we can live more than anything else. But, really, is it that bad? Is the US personally walking up to your door and shooting your children? Are we taking your gold? Are we carpet bombing your shopping malls? If we had to have an election on this planet as to which country we would like to have this power, who would it be? I'd pick the US because it's benevolent, but at the same time stands up for human rights a hell of a lot better than some Nazi country would.

I'm tired. It's tuesday, and I've worked 25 hours already this week. Don't see a lot of that in Denmark! (spineless ribbing)

quote:

---

Once we have the technology and know how to start the reactions, it will be insanly cheap to produce more fusion plants.

---

you are incorrect. with nuclear fission plants, once the technology was developed, it was up to industry to make it happen, and cheaply. 50 years later, they did it. nuclear is now the cheapest form of electricity. the reason for this is that even with all the rediculously expensive NRC regulations and safetey precautions, after you stick the fuel rods in the pressure vessel there isn't much different from a coal plant. a fusion reactor is completely different. it requires superconducters, insanely powerful magnets, high-powered lasers, a PERFECT vaccum (very difficult to maintain), deuterium and tritium (the latter being very expensive, radioactive, and has a relatively short half-life), and most important of all, a constant feed of a large amount of energy. even after ignition, the power consumed by the magnets and coolant systems is comparable to the output power. this won't change within 50 years, at the very least.

also, to everyone who thinks there is a limited supply of fossil* fuels, if we convert all nuclear reactors to the breeder type, there will be enough uranium and plutonium to last for thousands of years.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sithiee:
and yeah, i can compare, because my examples were valid. the first one, where vasili takes the bolt action rifle and kills those guys, thats not entirely unrealistic. the second, with stargate, if youve seen the movie, youd understand (i dont know if you have.) the entire civilization was ra's bitch, because his guards had those weapons. and for a long time they were too scared to stand up to them, and then they fought back. yes, a lot of their people died, but they still won. this is my point. they didnt take shit from them, because they were willing to die rather than take shit from ra. in your example, your just being an idiot. yes, i suppose technically those situations could happen. but thats a purely action movie. both movies i cited were not, because they werent completely unrealistic.

you can take it in the ass from bullies all you want, and maybe you like that, but i personally dont like taking it in the ass, so when people give me shit, i hand it right back. its called standing up for myself. something you apparently dont understand.

---

Okay, i'm going to reiterate. If you take your examples from movies, and say that "This could happen," then you are retarded. Most things in movies COULD happen. However, the likelyhood of that occuring is slim to none. So don't count on it.

As for the bullies, you must not have read what I put. Here's what would happen in my situation, which I feel was much better suited to the topic being argued here. I let the bullies go by, there are no problems, but now they control the yard. Not like I would've slowed them down anyway. You take your stand -- you die, the bullies take over anyway. If you want to toss your life away for a hopeless cause, so be it, but there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity; martyrdom and suicide.

quote:

---

If you take your examples from movies, and say that "This could happen," then you are retarded.

---

I actually proved in physics that the bus jump in Speed is easily possible using very generous assumptions. Then again, I didn't go out and try it after finding out it was possible.

askheaves, we don't make cars in Denmark (only Skoda which is cheap shit). Instead we import from Sweden and Germany mostly. Sweden makes Vovlo. All their newish models only output is CO2. The rest is collected in a filter. This goes for many other car manufacturers around. You are not the only ones using stuff like that. And I know what NOx gasses are I'm a chemist. But I also know that NOx gasses aren't a documented global problem. The problem is purely toxicity. This means that you could produce as much of that shit you'd like, and we wouldn't feel a thing over here. CO2 however is another matter. When producing that you do not only destroy your own environment. You destroy ours too. And that's what makes us pissed. And proclaiming that you want to increase the production of energy by drilling up more fossil fuels we get really pissed. You might need it because you haven't got enough as it looks now, but instead of drilling up more oil, you should try a different procedure. As we do in most of Europe everybody is told to save energy. If we need more power some something, we cut back on another thing. All the products in the stores are checked from end to bottom, for thing that could save energy. And the funny thing is that it works. We are actually saving it. It's stuff like turning off the computer, when not using it and stuff like going more than one in each car. So I don't believe you really NEED more power. You just need to divert it to the things you are actually using.

Other than that we pay something like 1$ pr. liter gasoline.

I wasn't meaning to talk only glory about Denmark. But covering the topic, my oppinion actually IS that we (most countries in the world) are doing a better job than you. On many other places you are so far ahead, that we wouldn't even try to keep up.

And the US is not hated because they're the biggest and "best". It really isn't. It has nothing to do with jalousy. It's the way you try to stay the "best" that bothers people. And war fanaticism.

pengu1n ... go play with Sithiee

frosty, just fucking admit that denmark was pussy. they didnt stand up when they should have. you think it was a smart move, you must be a pussy also. admit it was pussy, BECAUSE IT WAS. not standing up for them because it would save their lives is an idiotic excuse. if your not willing to risk the life youve been given to do right thing, then you shouldnt have that life in the first place. i respect hitler more than i respect denmark. yknow why? he stood up for what he believed in. he believed that all inferior people should die, and he did something about it. granted, i dont like that about him, and i dont like the guy, but i do respect the fact that he didnt sit idly by and whine about how it would be impossible. just fucking admit that denmark is full of pussies, and ill leave it alone. and my point was not whether it COULD happen at all. have you seen star trek? that could happen. is it relevant? no. the point about my situations is that they faced odds that most people considered impossible, and they didnt pussy out. your thing about bruce willis was dumb, because we all know willis isnt a pussy, and in the movie, theyre not impossible odds, because willis is always the best they have.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sithiee:
WG, Pengu1nn, you are both beasts.

---

Thank you!

Fusion power. its not 10-20 years away. They were running the prototype in princton at a zero loss. This means that it made enough electricity to support itself. This was well beyond what they thought it would ever be able to do.
This was 10 years ago.
They were to build a full size plant in AZ or NV to test a full scale run. It would have made enough electricity to light LV and all its suburbs.

Fusion is a reality people. They just need to go build it. Guess who is stopping them?

<cough>
big oil
</cough>

------------------
Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

where the hell are you getting this from wolfguard?

and how is big oil foiling their plans?

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 23, 2001 at 08:22 AM

------------------
Homer as Krusty episode:

lil kid: STOP IT STOP IT he's already dead!

WHY DO I HAVE TO JUSTIFY MYSELF TO YOU!

well i cant remember their name cos i'm shit with em. (i dont know half the names of my classmates or workmates)

it was in the uk in at hatfeild uni. but for all i know you might be thinking of a different project as i doubt theres just one group of people working on it

------------------
Homer as Krusty episode:

lil kid: STOP IT STOP IT he's already dead!

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
*keep looking shocked and move slowly towards the cake*

where the hell are you getting this from wolfguard?

and how is big oil foiling their plans?

---

Worked at ppl when they were building the tokamac<sp>. Know people that worked there that drank a lot when things were going good. These guys were in party mode most of the time.

Big oil owns (rents) goverment. all it takes is. "Gee Bill, you know, if that fusion thing gets off the ground my profits will drop and i wont be able to make that donation again next year."

bang, fusion is killed due to lack of funding.

edited to remove a blond moment.
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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

This message has been edited by Wolfguard on May 23, 2001 at 09:06 AM

This message has been edited by Wolfguard on May 23, 2001 at 09:11 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
i have never heard of a reactor in arizona that has reached ignition.

---

that is because funding was cut and the project scrapped.

They were able to light the prototype they built in princton NJ. It was putting out enough power to run itself at the end.

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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
i don't believe you because i've had conversations with different scientists and professors recently and also from some research i've done myself. i have never heard of a reactor in arizona that has reached ignition. as far as i know, the reactor large enough to reach ignition is still being built in eurpoe.

---

dunno if your referring to me or wolfguard there but if its me why dont you look at where i come from ...oh look its europe.

if your referring to wolfguard then i withdraw my homer-esque sarcasm

the tokamak in princeton never reached ignition.

you are extremely ignorant and dissillusioned about how the government works. why don't you go on fox news and rant about conservative conspiracies and aliens while you're at it.

I remember hearing about a fusion reactor that either reached a balanced i/o or got very close to it, but since CK says we're all wrong I guess we are...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sithiee:
frosty, just fucking admit that denmark was pussy. they didnt stand up when they should have. you think it was a smart move, you must be a pussy also. admit it was pussy, BECAUSE IT WAS. not standing up for them because it would save their lives is an idiotic excuse. if your not willing to risk the life youve been given to do right thing, then you shouldnt have that life in the first place. i respect hitler more than i respect denmark. yknow why? he stood up for what he believed in. he believed that all inferior people should die, and he did something about it. granted, i dont like that about him, and i dont like the guy, but i do respect the fact that he didnt sit idly by and whine about how it would be impossible. just fucking admit that denmark is full of pussies, and ill leave it alone. and my point was not whether it COULD happen at all. have you seen star trek? that could happen. is it relevant? no. the point about my situations is that they faced odds that most people considered impossible, and they didnt pussy out. your thing about bruce willis was dumb, because we all know willis isnt a pussy, and in the movie, theyre not impossible odds, because willis is always the best they have.

---

God you're thickheaded. There's a time to fight, even when the situation may seem hopeless, yes. But there's also a time to run, a time to give up. If you don't know this, you're not brave, you're not full of valor, you're a fucking moron. It's hard to stand up when if even if you outnumbered the enemy 2 to 1 they would still roll over you in a few hours. Quit thinking with your balls and use your head. I'm done with this argument. Come back when you're rational.

Second, that web page is a power company respnsible for long-range transmission on high-voltage lines. It doesn't say anything about the commerical, residential, or industrial power consumption of the state of california. That number is just the amount of power running on their lines.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frosty:

But there's also ... a time to give up.

---

i disagree.

1) This is THERmAL energy. Only 35\% of THERMAL energy at BEST can be turned into ELECTRICAL energy.

2) This test was for 10 MEASLEY SECONDS. A real power plant would have to run for a year at a time, uninterupted.

3) In order to reach ignition in a tokamak, a larger reactor is REQUIRED. ITER is our best bet, but it HASN'T BEEN BUILT YET. Even after it's contruction, it because of a massive 50\% funding cut, it will only be able to produce power for something like 500 seconds, and you would only gain a small amount of power. Something like a 1.1 ratio.

How about some links to useful information. Something more fact based.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

This message has been edited by jim on May 23, 2001 at 01:07 PM

But yeah, it'll probably be 20+ years before commercial production begins.

And do you think that the US is the only place you'll find 24/7 businesses? Geeez. And we've actually also got webservers here. We've got lots of irc servers here in Denamrk alone for instance. And only very few in the EU lives without electricity.

And I really have thought about why people in the US wastes power. I think it all comes down to the individual attitude. Power in the US costs 1/3rd or so compared to other countries. So the bill isn't that big and doesn't give people enough pressure to go easy on it. And excuses like using it for industry doesn't help to save the environment. Think about that.

Actually a few people in Denmark have started talking about boycotting the US if you keep up the pace. They're talking about a new 'cold war' between Europe and the US. It vill not come to that, but when people starts getting those thoughts it means something is very wrong.

And if you destroy the planet, the very home for us all, people won't be happy with you

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 23, 2001 at 02:51 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kolben:
When did I say that everybody in the US was wasting energy? That the average american does is a fact.

---

Oh, here's a good idea: drill for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, where you may only get enough oil to keep the country going for a couple months. < http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/07/04/ourplanet.strieker/ >

They just don't think. Kind of like ZODIACOCW.

------------------
<º(((><

This message has been edited by TallAssAzn on May 23, 2001 at 03:48 PM

Kolben, I agree, a lot of people in the US *do* waste a lot of energy. It's not necessarily electricity we waste, though. If you ever come to California during the summer months you'll see why we *need* air conditioning... an average summer day where I live is between 35-38 degrees C (that's 95-100 deg. F for us Americans). A person can barely think in that kind of heat, let alone work. Think about how much heating you need in Denmark in winter

New homes in California have to meet pretty strict energy requirements before they can even be built. The houses are so well-insulated that they only need air conditioning on the very hottest days (there are a few days when it gets up to 43C or even more).

If you want to complain about SUVs, though, I agree with you. Something like 30\% of the cars on the road are SUVs, and probably 99\% of the people driving them DON'T need them. Even worse, they drive them ALONE to WORK, which is often 60 miles or more away... at 14 miles a gallon.

SUVs barely fit in the lanes, and their drivers are usually busy chatting on a cell phone, weaving about and blocking traffic for 10 miles because everyone is afraid to pass them.

Senator Dianne Feinstein had a reasonable idea : classify SUVs as passenger vehicles (what people drive) instead of trucks (which are used for commercial purposes.) SUVs would then have to get the minimum gas mileage required by law for cars (18 highway, I think - it's not very high), as well as have the same safety standards.

SUV owners and manufacturers threw a fit. There was all kinds of talk about how the damn tree-hugging hippie environmentalist socialist commies were at it again.

If it makes you feel any better, I drive a Toyota (33MPG city, 37 highway) and I don't have air conditioning at home. I personally hope that there is a special place in hell for SUV owners...

quote:

---

Originally posted by demonk:
she does have a tendency to have to move large amounts of iteams around, like groceries (just imagine the food to feed 3 teenages > 6 ft tall, and a 40+ guy > 6.5 ft tall)

---

um, that would all fit in an average-sized sedan, dude... they have these amazing features called "trunks" and "back seats."

and as for wasting energy, fuck yeah. i do it all the time. i dont usually remember to turn off lights or fans in my house. i leave my computer on all the time. i cant recall the last time i turned off my monitor. i leave tvs on when im not using them, ad im always forgetting to turn off the stove. water? oh man, i just let that shit run until the cows come home. as for gas mileage, HAHAHAHAHAHA. i peel out 75\% of the time when im driving, mostly because im paranoid that everyone i pull up next to wants to race, no matter how unlikely it is. a couple times when i havent peeled out, ive lost to someone who did decide to race, so now i do almost all the time to compensate. another waste of gas, im basically a taxi cab service. i used to not have a car, and so i would have to walk home a lot, so i feel bad for people who have to, so i give them rides. ive wasted gallons of gas on that. and i like joyriding. i dont think ive ever gotten my expected gas mileage. yknow what? i like wasting stuff. as long as my parents are paying for it, im going to. yeah, thats probably really stuck up/greedy/whatever, but thats fine by me. im a wasteful person, i guess im an average american joe. im fine with that. i doubt that anything is gonna run out in my lifetime, so im not worried. dont try to convince me it will, im way too uncaring to believe you.

quote:

---

Oh, here's a good idea: drill for oil in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, where you may only get enough oil to keep the country going for a couple months

---

this is a BIG misconception that a lot of people have. the amount of oil in that region would be enough to supply all of the US's oil needs for 180 days, IF IT WAS THE ONLY SOURCE OF OIL ON THE GLOBE. It's not as if we are gonna go up there, fuck the environment up, and leave 180 days later.

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 23, 2001 at 12:31 PM

Even if the thermal -> electrical conversion is as low as you say it is, you wouldn't have to get the ratio much higher than 1 for it to make plenty of electricity.

The term "energy you put in" is misleading... most of the energy used in starting up a fusion reactor is to heat the fuel. Once it's ignited you don't have to keep using more energy to heat it, since it's now keeping itself warm. So while a powerplant-sized reactor may draw 1GW of electricity when starting up, once it's going you only need enough electricity to maintain the magnetic fields and run the injectors. Even a ratio as low as 1.1 with a 20\% surplus heat -> electricity conversion efficiency should provide a hell of a lot more electricity than what's needed to run the reactor.

The Web site I referred you to is the California Independent System Operator. It isn't a power company; it's state-run and manages the power grid for all of California. So yes, those 36GW do include pretty much every single watt used in the state.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TallAssAzn:
< I-695 >

---

Yah! Some people are such retards! My retarted uncle was like, "HA! I'M GOING TO VOTE 'YES' ON THAT! HA!" And then a few months later he says, "Did you know they're not going to fix that pot hole on Kent Kangly? They said they don't have enough money because we voted for I695! That's stupid! They need go get the money somewhere else! I'm not paying that for my car!"

EARTH TO RETARD: YOU pay the government. THAT's where the money comes from! So either pay the money, don't complain when the tax on something else goes up, or SHUT YOUR FUCKING MOUTH!!!

I don't care if people voted for it, but DON'T complain when the roads suck!

------------------
"OH GGOD!!! NOT THE HYLIGHTER AGAIN!!! GO AWAY YOU LITTLE PEANUT HEDGEHOG!!!"
"The only thread about ME likened me to poo shaped mummy."
"Have a nice day, because monkeys don't."
-< PersonGuy >

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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

but anyway, kolben, i pay the damn electric bill i don't care if it is 3/4 cheaper, it still costs me money so i don't waste it (a penny saved is a penny earned and all that crap) ok so in denmark you have 24/7 business', but you don't have the amount that the us does, hell i bet tn alone has as many as denmark and tn isn't all that big, the us out numbers everyone in that. i guess some ppl waste energy in the us, but i'm willing to bet they do it in denmark too, and england, russia, everywhere. i wonder, what is or power usage compared to someone like japan, would have to scale everything because of size but i bet it would be close

i'm the only one at work today so i'm gonna play some cs now

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
what we bash is...the buisnessmen who drive them just so other people will think they are the outdoorsy adventuring type.

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roflmao! we have those guys all over the Bay Area... driving their squeaky clean forest green Eddie Bauer Limited Edition Ford Explorers with their Land's End polo shirts tucked nicely into their khakis. They need the SUV for hauling their Extra Lightweight Graphite Composite golf clubs thru them rough & tough parking lots down at the country club, I suppose.

Man, I hate those fuckers... if you go into the Sierras where the REAL outdoorsmen are, they drive pickups or Suburbans. Their cars are covered in dust. They wear t-shirts and bluejeans and can hack down a tree with less effort than it takes your average Adventurous Sporty Type to putt.

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Telnet - Reach out and finger someone

This message has been edited by Dysorderia on May 24, 2001 at 01:57 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dysorderia:
[b]<this whole thread abridged>
Europeans: Bush is an idiot, and undoing what Clinton did.
Americans: Clinton didn't do shit, but Bush is the president of the future.
</this whole thread abridged>
[/B]

---

youre an idiot, it seems to me that its mostly just heaves and ck who approve of bush. reread the thread jackass.

and heaves, increasing taxes and incrasing spending makes sense. when you take in more money, then it makes spend that you can spend more. it doesnt necessarily(if you make the right spending cuts it could) make sense to decrease taxes and increase spending. however, this same method of increased spending decreased taxing was implemented by reagan. what happened? oh yeah, the debt multiplied by 5!!!! thats fucking retarded and we dont need that shit anymore.

...riiiight....

that being said, i'm gonna give jr. shrub a chance to do something good. i mean hell, the WORST that can really happen is that in 4 years, i'll be exactly where i am.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

Offcourse (teach me how to spell that) we have people wasting energy over here. But the difference is that other people here gets pissed about it. In the US other people are just minding there own business I guess. They just don't care. I saw some people with their bikes the other day marching in procession yelling that they wanted the cars out of Copenhagen. How crazy it may sound, I thought it over at it struck me how good an idea it was. Ambulances, and delivery trucks would get in and out a lot faster and the public transportation would run a lot smoother. People would learn how to ride the bicycle, which would decrease all sorts of deseases caused by too little exercise. People would be happier and smile and wave to eachother in the morning. The sky would always be bright and blue, and rose leaves would fall from the sky

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 24, 2001 at 06:43 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by Vigilante:
Say it with me, now: undoing Clinton's damage is a good thing.

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well undoing damage is good, but what damage did clinton cause? NOT INCREASING THE DEBT?? OH DEAR LORD WHAT HAS HE DONE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

quote:

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Originally posted by DeadAnztac:
I just don't get why folks voted Bush... I mean anyone who's policy is "decrease tax and increase spending" must be an idiot...

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Dummy, that was the Clinton plan... except it was increase taxes AND increase spending.

The tax plan calls for some good cuts... which, by cuts, means a lower increase in spending than has happened in recent years.

If the government has it, it'll spend it. It's just better to stop tempting them.

quote:

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Originally posted by jim:
What's up with all the SUV bashing? SUV's actually have some functionality

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thats all fine and good. what we bash is the housewives with 1-2 kis who live in the urbs or suburbs and drive suv's, and the buisnessmen who drive them just so other people will think they are the outdoorsy adventuring type. in other words, people who buy SUV's for no good reason at all and waste so much gas. There's nothing wrong with having one if you live in a rural area or you often move heavy objects. My gripe is that most of the modern SUV's aren't even designed to do that. they cater to the urban dumbasses and make extremely wasteful SUV's with no purpose and no possibility of future purpose (i.e. RAV-4, that kia crap, etc)

quote:

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Originally posted by Observer:
Though if you go to that website that was referenced, it could be possible that there is more than one I-695.

---

However, a lot of Soccer Moms and what not that get SUV's nowadays get them instead of a mini van. Just because they drive solo to work, or even if 90\% of the time the vehicle is occupied by less than 2 people. I know a lot of people who buy SUVs because they take road trips. People who buy SUVs for road trips, or as an occasional outdoor vehicle, or for picking up kids from soccer practice.... Can't afford a second car to drive to drive as an every day vehicle.

I hope that makes sense.

In summary... MOST people that buy SUVs buy them for their style over a mini van, AND their funcionality, even if they use the funcionality of the SUV only on occasion.

SUVs are pretty expensive, and most people don't even like driving them. People who buy them usually have some need for their size, space, power, or whatever in some way or another.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

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Originally posted by jim:
Bush is great. Clinton was a TOOL!

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But Clinton was a tool of the people since he listened to what they wanted and tried to give it to them. Bush is a tool of his advisors and campain contributors. Just like his father before him, he doesn't really give a fuck about the average person.

quote:

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and history (i predict) will see him as [a great pres]

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your prediction is already wrong. nobody thinks he is a great president. not even the democrats.

quote:

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if it was all reagan and bush, then why was it that when clinton changed the retard policies, things started working well?

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why don't you take econ 101 and find out instead of assuming you're right to begin with.

mass transit sucks.

it's crowded, dirty, smelly, noisy, claustrophobic, humid, and stuffy. it's horrifically slow, and runs only on limited routes and schedules. there is NOTHING worse than having to wake up at 7 am to get to work/school at 10 am because it takes the public bus FIFTY MINUTES to go the three miles from where you live to where you're going. keeping in mind that the bus only comes by every thirty minutes, and does not in any way adhere to the bus schedule means that either you make that 8:30 bus, or your ass is a half hour late. this is of course, rush hour in the good ol' u.s.a., so the bus which has seats for somewhere around 40 people is actually carrying somewhere around 100 people. which means standing, sometimes with nothing to hold on to, while being stepped on, coughed on, sneezed on, used as a hand rail, hit ferociously with backpacks, briefcases, umbrellas, hats, and a multitude of other things that people bring on the bus. on really lucky days, someone brings a baby on the bus, complete with stroller. they can't leave the baby in the stroller, so the stroller is folded up, runs over everyone's feet, kneecaps a few lucky souls. then there's the mom with the kid, who takes up 2 or 3 seats for herself, the kid, and the 52 bags of shit with the 'baby's things'. for one lucky bus travelin grand prize winner, there's a wonderful eau de baby puke. but hey, it's only for three miles. three miles in nearly an hour. 90 year old men walk faster than that.

then, oh joy, ANOTHER ride on the bus to get home.

forget about going anywhere for fun. that means calling around to find out if there *is* a bus that goes anywhere near where you want to go, and then finding out that due to the limited hours of public transportation, you can catch a bus that *might* get you within a mile of your destination at 21:00, but the last bus that makes the trip toward your home goes by there at 22:00. it also takes at least an hour to get there, even though by car it's only 20 minutes. so you get ready and make it to the bus stop before 20:00, but your bus is late, so you arrive at the closest bus stop to your destination at 21:15, walk a mile, spend a whole 15 minutes where you wanted to be, and then have to hike back to the bus stop so you can catch the absolute last bus home. if you miss that bus, it's no problem. call a cab. but be sure you have the ฮ for the fare. cabbies don't like it if you don't pay.

so yeah, you can preach to me all day long about how evil cars are, but a car is the freedom to move about whenever you want. to not be stepped on, coughed on, sneezed on, run over, hit in the head with a briefcase, or be puked on. the freedom to get to the club before the band starts playing, and stay until they've played your favorite song. a car is the ability to put on whatever clothes you want, and know they'll not be covered in sweat, coffee, puke, or blood by the time you get where you're going.

so kolben, you go on dreaming about public transportation in a country roughly the size of connecticut, and i'll go on dreaming about the day when i can jump in my car, turn the cd player up loud and drive down some old two lane highway until i run out of gas.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
idiotic shit.

---

ok, you are an idiot. nobody thinks he was a great pres? i do. damien seems to. kolben seems to. in fact a lot of people think he was a great pres. in 50 years(which is more what i was referring to as history, not history being a few months after hes out of office), people will learn to ignore the fact that he had sex. he wont be considered a bad president because he had sex with an intern, but thats the main reason why "even the democrats dont like him" which is also a false statement. when it comes down to evaluating a president, you have to look at what was accomplished, and the major fuckups by the president. what was clintons major fuckup? he had sex with an intern. ok, thats all. what did he accomplish? the list goes on and on. thats what history is going to promote. JFK did a lot of sleeping around. people dont look at that as much as the things he did accomplish. nixon didnt accomplish much, which is the main reason for why his fuckups are so promoted. if you go back to harding, he accomplished JACK SHIT, and managed to fuck up a whole lot, and his cabinet basically ass raped him. reagan had a few fuckups, but people were so grateful for his ass backwards way out of the energy crisis, that they ignored his fuckups. clinton WILL be seen as good pres, i would bet a lot on that. and if you had even half a brain you would too. but you dont.

and when it comes to going off on things you dont know about, you are the king. like when you tried to take on jim in the women in combat thread.

jim: women dont belong in combat, here is a shitload of good proof.
ck: WELL i think that women are just as good as men, and i like to suck up to women a lot, and so im going to say WITHOUT ANY REAL PROOF that women are just as good as men in a combat situation, especially since they look hot!

ck, dont ever comment on other people not having backing arguments, you stupid son of a bitch. stop sucking goat cock you flaming homo erotic bitch!

you said the list goes on and on for what he acomplished. name three things that can be directly attributed to him. as for being a good president, he was impeached for fucks sake. how many other presidents can say they did such a good job that they almost/did got kicked out?

quote:

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you stupid son of a bitch. stop sucking goat cock you flaming homo erotic bitch!

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i bet you can't back that up, either.

and ck, as a jew, you should know that spending more money without taking in more is a bad idea. that should be ingrained into your blood.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

This message has been edited by jim on May 25, 2001 at 12:35 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
if you go into the Sierras where the REAL outdoorsmen are, they drive pickups or Suburbans. Their cars are covered in dust. They wear t-shirts and bluejeans and can hack down a tree with less effort than it takes your average Adventurous Sporty Type to putt.

---

Hey wait.. that sounds like here. Wait, execpt that the only thing thats any good on dirt roads (for extended periods of time)is a pickup. Suburbans, SUV's in general bite ass. By the end of the spring logging season, everyones truck is a solid brown from the cab down.

I really hate people who think they can take thier Explorers and shit offroad, or just on some of the spur & branch roads and perform like they're some sort of offroad god. Fuck, they have a short wheelbase, sit low, and still have a high center of gravity.

Don't get me wrong, SUV's obviously have their uses. We have one, but we use it to carry things like, groceries, skis, miscellanious things, people and stuff. What it should be used for. Although most commercials will have you belive otherwise.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

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so kolben, you go on dreaming about public transportation in a country roughly the size of connecticut, and i'll go on dreaming about the day when i can jump in my car, turn the cd player up loud and drive down some old two lane highway until i run out of gas.

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You misunderstood! I said the cars out of Copenhagen. Not out of Denmark (what gave you that idea?). I have nothing against cars if they're nescesarry and the people using them are using them "properly". People from outside the city could drive their cars until they reached the suburbs and then go by train to the inner city. Our trainstations and connections are actually already very good in Copenhagen. And the fact that busses and such wouldn't have to wait for traffic to pass by would speed them up. And the fact that more people would be using them, would also increase the amount of busses and therefore decreasing the "long" waits at the bus stops.

And if you are only going 3 miles then get your ass on a bicycle

And about Clinton. I might not know all the stuff he did for the US, but most people over here have nothing against him. And that's quite an accomplishment being a US president. I think he had a great policy towards foreign countries. He made the US look big and strong and willing to help. Bush is only making you country looking big, stupid, ignorant and greedy.

third, you're from DENMARK. you admit yourself you really know nothing about bill clinton, except that people from DENMARK don't hate him. since he was president of the UNITED STATES, that means that what DENMARK thought about him doesn't mean dick. that DENMARK likes him, does not mean he did one damn bit of good for the UNITED STATES.

oh, and btw, clinton's biggest negative wasn't 'that he had sex with an intern'. it was that he put his left hand on the bible, his right hand in the air, swore to tell the TRUTH the whole TRUTH and nothing but the TRUTH. and then he LIED. if he had just admitted what he did, i'm sure it would be forgotten. but he's an attorney, and as such he's held to a higher standard when it comes to testifying in court. he committed perjury and subhorned perjury in the testimony of others. those are FELONIES. that's why he was impeached.

he wanted to leave a legacy, peace in the middle east, making handguns illegal, or socialist health care, and he failed on all three. but he did leave a legacy. the only elected president to be impeached. he's a disgusting criminal. fucking an intern while he's on the phone with foreign powers should qualify as treason.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

and as for being ashamed that IM a jew, how is it that you can claim to be a jew when you voted a racist bitch into the white house??

Clinton viewed we the people as his friends - and it didn't matter what country they were from. His enemies were greedy, selfish motherfuckers like Bush.

quote:

---

Originally posted by demonk:
Now lets look at what Bush has done so far:
He's removed funding for overseas groups that even COUNCEL on abortions.
He's pissed off China by not being the better person and saying "ya, we got caught spying on you. Sorry about the death of one of your citizens".
He's opened up Alaska for oil drilling, always a good thing.
He's pushed through a tax cut that is way to big.
He's ticking off every other country in the world by trying to build Star Wars, even though we don't really need it.
He's trying to get school vouchers so that our schools will have even less money than before.
He's rejected teh Kyoto treaty, the only real enviromental treaty that would have helped curb global warming.
There's probably more, just can't think of any more. Now, some of these things are seen as good, but most of those people are rich white families who don't really give a fuck about less fortunate people, so their opinions mean jack shit to me. There is a distinct difference between Clinton's and Bush's policies: Clinton wanted to help most of the people in the world improve the quality of their lives. Bush just wants to improve the quality of his friends' lives.

---

Grr...

Cutting funding for groups that are underperforming. Regrouping to come up with better solutions for serious problems in the world without just throwing money at them.

That's exactly what we did with China. China got pissed because we didn't admit that we veered our airplane, despite physical laws of the univers, into their pilot and deliberatly killed him.

Domestic oil exploration and options is a good thing when middle-eastern countries have our energy needs by the short and curlies.

He pushed through a bipartisan compromised bill that will reduce the size of government and force it to be wiser about its dollars... a change from the Clinton ideals.

Star Wars... who the fuck cares. It's not going to work for 20 years, so why not do some research to make theatre defense possible. At least so mainland China can't rain fire on Taiwan, North Korea can't lob missles into the air, and outdated and resold Russian systems can't accidentally find there way here.

School vouchers are a way of incentivising a school to do a better job. We've proven over the last 8 years that throwing money at an education system doesn't fix it. This gives poor families the ability to do what rich ones already do... opt out of failing public schools.

The Kyoto treaty, while I'm very unfamiliar with it, is not the last opportunity for the world to fix Global Warming problems. If it was rejected, it was probably because it put the US in an unfair economic position for meeting it's requirements. That's just my guess from zero knowledge of it.

Overall, I think it's clear what Bush's goals are. He wants smaller government that does fewer things much better. Strong education, strong energy policy, strong international policy that doesn't screw us in the end.

Like I've said... there's easier ways to get money for your buddies than running for the president of the United States. There's more visiblity, and there's more culpibility. You want to talk about helping out buddies, look at the last week that Clinton spent in office. Lot of wiggy stuff happened when he was no longer subject to the people's justice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by askheaves:
Cutting funding for groups that are underperforming. Regrouping to come up with better solutions for serious problems in the world without just throwing money at them.

---

if you believe that, youre dumber than ck, and hes pretty stupid. he cut funding to ANY group that considered abortion an option. underperforming may have been a factor, but he cut most of the funding based on whether or not they considered an abortion. that is straight up fact.

quote:

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School vouchers are a way of incentivising a school to do a better job. We've proven over the last 8 years that throwing money at an education system doesn't fix it. This gives poor families the ability to do what rich ones already do... opt out of failing public schools.

---

heres how school vouchers work. if a school doesnt meet the standards (judging by the way these work in VA, the standards are not a good test) they give vouchers for private schooling. the school loses money. kids try to go to private school. the private schools cant let everyone in. the private schools let in the smart and the rich. this leaves (in most cases) non-whites in the now even shitter because they lost almost all their funding public school. the school has no funding, and so they cant fix themselves. PROBLEM NOT SOLVED. gore's plan, if it worked the way he always said it would, made much more sense, because it would fix the problem. vouchers represent the classic GOP stance, if there is a problem, ignore it, and hope it fixes itself. just make sure all the white people are ok.

bush, straight up, hes only trying to help himself and his friends. he says the tax cut is for the people, and thats why everyone gets a cut, but if it was really for the people, it would go to the people who dont make as much, so they can buy a house or food, not to the rich so that they can buy a z8 instead of a m3.

i'm dead serious here. you want the tax cut money to go to 'those who need it' instead of those who actually over paid in taxes. that's socialism. that has no place in a free republic.

i won't get dick this year from the tax cut, because i paid damn near nothing in taxes. so bill gates or some other rich fucker is gonna get more than me. oh BOO FUCKING HOO. they paid more, so they get a bigger refund. that's fair.

as for what happened with china, sorry heaves, but i disargee with the statement. a prop job the size of a 747 no way in hell deliberately turned and flew into a fighter jet. wang wei was probably showboating tryin to show the americans his email address again, and he fucked up. we had nothing to apologize *for*.

clinton's answer to everything was 'throw money at it and it'll go away.' he's a lousy, disgusting shame of a human being who completely lacks any sort of honor and i'm embarrassed that he was ever the president. both him and his anti-semite racist bitch wife.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
as for what happened with china, sorry heaves, but i disargee with the statement. a prop job the size of a 747 no way in hell deliberately turned and flew into a fighter jet. wang wei was probably showboating tryin to show the americans his email address again, and he fucked up. we had nothing to apologize *for*.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by askheaves:
That's exactly what we did with China. China got pissed because we didn't admit that we veered our airplane, despite physical laws of the univers, into their pilot and deliberatly killed him.

---

I agree with you.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
Oh, look at me! I'm making people happy! I'm the Magical Man from Happy-Land, in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane!

---

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 27, 2001 at 02:02 PM

and i dont know what the fuck that was supposed to mean ck, please do elaborate.

Yes I am from DENMARK. And I'm not the fucking king of the World. All I've ever told here is my oppinions. And my OPPINION is that when people aren't trying to use their minds a little while using their car, they shouldn't be alowed to have one. That doesn't make me a king. It's an oppinion. DAMNIT! And when the hell did biking get fun?

And yeah Clinton lied. So would most other people in the world. If you don't believe that I don't think your insights in humans count as valid arguments. Because then you don't know anything about how the human head works.

And swearing on the Bible is a joke. The Bible is nothing more than a funny tale about people and how they behave and the consequences. God is a joke. Tell me were he is, and I'll go tell him. Man doesn't need God. And if God is real it must be God that needs man. That sick pervert needed to have some toys to play with.

And if you try to piss people off you should call them other stuff then socialists. Try BuromiSan. Socialist isn't a negative word.

And if Russia were to fire at you, it probably would be your own fault. They've got a sane leader in the moment. Try behaving instead of defending yourselves. And you should make the defense shield so it would stop ANY missile fired. Not just those aiming at you. You want to use Greenland, but what the hell does Denmark get out of it.

And spying on China IS a fucking big deal. Lots of other countries would have declared war on you and raped the pilots. And you SHOULD be ashamed.

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
i won't get dick this year f

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by askheaves:
School vouchers are a way of incentivising a school to do a better job. We've proven over the last 8 years that throwing money at an education system doesn't fix it. This gives poor families the ability to do what rich ones already do... opt out of failing public schools.

---

No. School vouchers are such a stupid idea, askheaves, that I am surprised that you would fall for it.

The #1 reason private schools consistantly outperform public schools : they get to choose their students. One school in my area wins the Northern California title almost every year - which is entirely unfair, because public schools can't go out and recruit football players like De La Salle can.

There are some public schools that do get to choose their students, and these schools do every bit as well, and often better, than the private schools.

Vouchers will only make the public schools worse by depriving them of the brightest students.

Welcome to America. We are very proud of our ability to justify fucking the poor up the ass. When they complain, we tell them it's all their fault!

Fast fact : the vast majority of people on welfare are WHITE MEN. The group with the largest percentage of welfare fraud is, again, WHITE MEN. Remember that next time you get pissed off about them black welfare mothers...

------------------
"OH GGOD!!! NOT THE HYLIGHTER AGAIN!!! GO AWAY YOU LITTLE PEANUT HEDGEHOG!!!"
"The only thread about ME likened me to poo shaped mummy."
"Have a nice day, because monkeys don't."
-< PersonGuy >

people like me who got labeled everything from ADD to learning disabled because we were BORED OUT OF OUR FUCKING MINDS by how simple the material was and how many times the teacher had to repeat it.

the teacher couldn't go fast enough for kids like me, because the below-average kids couldn't get it. she couldn't go slow enough for them, because the smart kids were bored shitless. if you let the smarter students go to a school where they'll be challenged accordingly, they'll achieve more and be better students. this then frees up the teacher to move at a pace more tailored to the students who need more time and effort to learn things.

as for 'giving the money back to the people who need it', they're not the ones who overpaid. when i go to wal*mart and buy something, i had the cahsier a ฤ bill. if the thing i bought costs บ, i get บ back. because I OVERPAID. wal*mart doesn't just hand it straight to the cashier saying "she needs it more than you." because she didn't pay it in the first place.

maybe a ฤK refund from taxes would benefit me more than it would oprah winfrey, but it's NOT MY MONEY. i didn't pay that money to begin with, and i have no right to ask the government (wal*mart) to take it away from the person who did.

and kolben, if you can't see why LYING UNDER OATH in court is such a horrible thing, then i'm damn glad you're not living in america. lying, especially after you've sworn to tell the truth, is an act completely without integrity. clinton has no integrity. he's a disgusting, dishonest little slug.

maybe he should move to denmark, since danes seem to like him so fucking much.

and heaves, i had a brain fart and totally missed the part about physics.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Welcome to America. We are very proud of our ability to justify fucking the poor up the ass. When they complain, we tell them it's all their fault!

---

quote:

---

emperors new groove:
Yzma: I'm sorry your family doesnt have enough...what was it again?
Peasant: food.
Yzma: Food! You should have thought of that before you became peasants!

---

edit: im a bad speller.

This message has been edited by Sithiee on May 28, 2001 at 10:26 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
as for 'giving the money back to the people who need it', they're not the ones who overpaid. when i go to wal*mart and buy something, i had the cahsier a ฤ bill. if the thing i bought costs บ, i get บ back. because I OVERPAID. wal*mart doesn't just hand it straight to the cashier saying "she needs it more than you." because she didn't pay it in the first place.

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that is SHITIEST argument i have ever heard in my life. the refund you get from the argument from overpaying your taxes is not like handing a 20 to the cashier when you only owe 10. Tax is not something thats labeled straight up like the pricetag of something at the store. Its determined by a lot of factors, and when they determine who is owed money, its not based solely on how much you gave them in the first place. your example is flawed in so many ways, i dont really even know where to begin. paying taxes isnt like buying something at the store. when they pass taxcuts (for your smaller, slower brain, ill point out that that can mean deciding who gets the taxcuts, and how much) they do take into account who needs it. the taxcuts are rarely entirely even across the board. and yes, someone who makes 10K a year NEEDs the taxcut far more than someone who makes 60 million. if you dont see that, then i hope you die in a gas fire.

And if you can't understand why Clinton lied, then I see no hope for you at all. Everything is not as black and white as you put it. Maybe he lied because it seemed like the easy way out and because the public should mind their own fucking business. The public made him lie. Most people in the world would have done the same.

And if you are so fucking tired of me defending Denmark, then don't fucking use the word in every other sentence you type.

Just a question. How is lying under oath any different from lying when not under oath? It's the same thing. There's absolutely no difference at all. Lying is lying, and if you ever told a lie, then you are no better than you are putting Clinton. Infact you are worse. Because you say you don't respect it, and you did it anyways, which makes you some kind of a hyppocrite I don't know any words for in english.

quote:

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And if Russia were to fire at you, it probably would be your own fault. They've got a sane leader in the moment. Try behaving instead of defending yourselves.

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thats so fucking retarded, you don't know shit. the "president" of russia is the former head of the KGB, the russian secret police. and what the fuck do you mean by we better "behave"

if "god" and the bible mean so damn much to clinton and he could swear TO GOD to tell the truth and then lie, what's that say for everything else?

the man...no, he's not even a man. he's a turd. a disgusting, slimy, smelly turd. he has no worth as a human being. reminds me of a guy i knew from arkansas who said 'like clinton? no, we hate him. we only voted for him for president to get him the hell outa here.'

he's horrible.

and yes, sithiee, it is the same thing. the taxes the government takes from me are supposed to pay for whatever services and goods the government provides me. well, obviously I'VE OVERPAID. i'm due a refund in the amount that i overpaid. so is EVERYONE ELSE. if they paid more, their refund is bigger.

the only people who don't think so are the ones who want everything handed to them while they sit on their lazy asses and never earn a god damn thing. i care about people who really and truly can't fend for themselves, but give me a fucking break. most of the people complaining COULD work, but don't. and why should i have to bust my ass to support some lazy fucknugget who won't take any initiative in his own life? because i can "afford" it? fuck that.

i'm not entitled to bill gates's tax refund, and joe welfare is not entitled to mine.

oh and kolben, lying under oath is a lot worse than telling a little white lie now and again 'yeah, mom, that new haircut looks nice' when really, she looks like she was attacked with a hedge clipper is VERY different from denying another citizen due process of the law.

if you can't figure that out, it's no wonder you like clinton. neither of you have any integrity.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

This message has been edited by kuru on May 28, 2001 at 04:51 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
and yes, sithiee, it is the same thing. the taxes the government takes from me are supposed to pay for whatever services and goods the government provides me. well, obviously I'VE OVERPAID. i'm due a refund in the amount that i overpaid. so is EVERYONE ELSE. if they paid more, their refund is bigger.

the only people who don't think so are the ones who want everything handed to them while they sit on their lazy asses and never earn a god damn thing. i care about people who really and truly can't fend for themselves, but give me a fucking break. most of the people complaining COULD work, but don't. and why should i have to bust my ass to support some lazy fucknugget who won't take any initiative in his own life? because i can "afford" it? fuck that.

i'm not entitled to bill gates's tax refund, and joe welfare is not entitled to mine.

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so the government does more for gates and less for you? and thats why he has to pay more? come now, lets not say things contradictory to what weve already said. bill gates deserves a bigger taxcut than you do. but its to pay for services that the government provides. the government then does more for bill gates, right? no, in fact, id guess that they do less for him, in fact, they probably make his a life a lot harder, what with the anti trust deal and all. i think you have some issues to sort out with yourself. it also seems to me like your beef is more with welfare than anything else.

Bush is an idiot. When people look back at his presidency, they will see how is actions wheren't for the people or of the people, they were his and his alone. He campained as a moderate just so he could get more votes, and then he suddenly becomes a right-wing conservative! Talk about lying! He promised to honor the Kyoto Protocal, and what is one of the first things he does? He completely pulls out of it, making the US seem like spinless wimps who can't take any inititive. Now who's the worse lier?

Clinton lied about something that no one had the right to ask him. Bush has lied about everything else. Clinton's probablems where just personal life ones. Bush's has and will continue to be problems that will have real consequences for us, the world, and the future.

Republicans just don't get it, and they never will.

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
Republicans just don't get it, and they never will.

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There's your big problem. You hate right wing ideals, and he embodies them.

You're judging that this presidency is going to be the worst calamity of the world after less than 1/8 of a term... After 8 years with Clinton, I can make a valid judgement. He was a horrible human being. I remember when he entered office, 2 years in, 4 years, and his last day. Never did I think he was a decent human being. And he only got worse every year. People forget that he was president before Monica. I don't give a rip about that scandel. I'm glad he got his 'winky whacked'. It's still wrong to stare America in the eye and lie to them in no uncertain terms.

He's been a dishonest self-serving humanoid since the day he entered office... and, in all actuality, for many years before that day.

And this isn't the Republican in me talking. Jimmy Carter is a really decent human being. John Kennedy, besides being a quack in his private life, was a good president because people believed in him and his strength. There have been good democratic presidents. Clinton is not one of them. You supporters are probably too young to remember much about what it was like to have a real president.

Bush's presidency is not going to be perfect. It's going to piss off a lot of left-wing thinkers. In the end, stuff is going to get done that's going to keep America strong. You have your senate now. You have a decent check against his TYRANNY. Calling him an idiot doesn't do anything for me. I'm smarter than the president. Whoop didiooo. It's more important that he has the ability to make a firm decision, based in reality, and the strength to see it through.

anyway, bush has been getting a huge bad rap because clinton passed a lot of liberal environmentalist crap right before he left office. the kyoto protocols is one of them. clinton only agreed to it because he wasn't running for reelection. there was also a bill he passed that is supposed to limit the amound of arsenic in water to less then 5 ppm, which is less then the natural amount of trace arsenic in any water supply. then when bush came into office, he repealed this and the kyoto protocals because they were extremely impractical and only passed to make bush's life harder. thats the democratic parties SOP.

oh yeah and demonk, i love how you seem to think that liberals are all high and mighty abd perfect and out for everyone's good, and how conservatives are just evil rich old white men out to enslave the population or something

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 28, 2001 at 06:47 PM

Some other definitions include "tolerant of others" and "broad minded." Sithee, Demonk, Kolben... you'd think that in this day and age, everyone would choose those sorts of ideals to live by, but apparently not.

Askheaves - Imagine that some people that call themselves "liberal" could actually have some Integrity and Dignity, and sometimes even have the ability to think for themselves! I know, I know, things like that only happen in Wonderland, but try for a second. Write down all the right-wing ideals on a sheet of paper, and then ask yourself why some people hate them.

Hmm...

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on May 28, 2001 at 06:58 PM

but i agree damien. how is it that someone can stand with a man who thinks that "all crimes are hate crimes", or claims to be for one thing like how in his state, they do this and that, and then it turns out he was against these things? (like when he was so emphatic about how he had a patients rights bill in texas, which he refused to sign). or someone who thinks that killing people is a good way to reform them. someone whos primary goals in the energy crisis lie not in bringing down the price of oil, but making more money for those who sell it, as long as theyre u.s. based sellers?

theres not a single thing i like about GW, and i refuse to acknowledge him as the president of the us (i always say dubya, or the like, instead of "the president"), and i think pretty much anyone who believes in his ideals should be raped by a big burly hairy guy named tiny.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
i prefer to think of myself as a libertarian. basically, do whatever the fuck you want, as long as it doesnt effect others in a way that they dont like, or inhibits them from doing whatever the fuck they want.

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quote:

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i wouldnt say i have a firm grasp on what i would define [socialism] as, all i know is it fall ssomewhere between communism and being liberal

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i just noticed that. dumbass. thats like saying "im somewhere between reactionary and radical". you are also pretty much saying you want a huge government that controls everything you do, but you want to be totally free and do whatever you want.

p.s. communism is an economic system while liberalism is a politcal ideaology. they aren't even similar things on the same line.

quote:

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...Red China, as they presumably say at the Bush dinner table.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
i just noticed that. dumbass. thats like saying "im somewhere between reactionary and radical". you are also pretty much saying you want a huge government that controls everything you do, but you want to be totally free and do whatever you want.

p.s. communism is an economic system while liberalism is a politcal ideaology. they aren't even similar things on the same line.

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hmm, wow, youve got a great point there ck! except one minor flaw in your argument. I NEVER SAID I WAS SOCIALIST! kuru called me one, and i said i didnt have a firm grasp on what exactly a socialist was. do you eat shit for breakfast? you brain is sure full of it.

and actually, on the scale of political ideology, when someone says theyre liberal, theyre usually about slightly left of being moderate, when compared to someone who is considered communist (i.e. believes in the communist ideals, and is therefor far far more left on the ideological scale.) inbetween these two is socialism. should i draw a picture?

code:

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|                     |                 | |

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do you comprehend now?

This message has been edited by Sithiee on May 29, 2001 at 03:34 AM

Another thing. Maybe it started out as a little white lie, but you along with alot of other people made him blow it up to an big one.

And I could easily swear on the Bible and lie, because I don't believe in it. I think that the Bible is a funny fairytale written by a funny man, to see how much people he could fool. If he'd been around today he would have laughed himself to death. I believe in StarWars more than I believe in the Bible. StarWars is far more realistic.

But fact is that you think it's OK to lie, when it's a little white lie. But tell me how you teel a little white one from a big fat one. If the point of view were from the one telling it, most lies would be little white lies. Because a lie only reflect the consious of the one telling it. If a big fat lie is a lie that hurts other people, then I don't believe the one Clinton told was just that. He told it to protect his family. Most people would do that. As he told it it was a little white lie, but because of the evil prying publics eyes, he had to stick with it, to maintain his apearance. And that, concludes that the guy has more spine than any of us.

So actually YOU made a little lie big. He probably didn't think it was big.

And about my political views, I can only say that they're sparks from my philosophical beliefs. I have my own and that it's not categorised under any known group. I believe that everyone is equal. And I believe and a society where EVERYONE works together for greater purposes. But this is an unrealistic thought.

About the Kyoto agreement, Just throwing it in the garbage is what pisses people off. Not even trying to find a compromize with it is spineless. Every country with a bit of selfrespect is signing that agreement. The US are just too greedy to even think about others. And if you believe in the Bible you would know that greed is as bad or worse than a lie. And you are actually not the only ones in the world. You're actually not only destroying you own home, but mine too, and that pisses me off.

This message has been edited by Kolben on May 29, 2001 at 04:33 AM

as for the united states being pussys for backing out of the kyoto protocol, it's NOT that we are being totally greedy, it's that we are suffering a SEVERE energy crisis. if your entire country was experiencing blackouts and industries were unable to function well, you would back out of it too until your had things fixed.

oh yeah and another point-the kyoto protocol is meant to reduce emmissions from high output coal power plants. our power plants are about as efficient and clean as they get, we spent billions on co2 scrubbers. the main target is older inefficient coal plants used in many developing countries which are extremely dirty in comparison. it's not that "no more pollution controls = lots more pollution", it's more like "no more pollution controls = cheaper energy with the same amount of pollution". besides the kyoto protocols there are tons of legsislation on environmental protection.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 29, 2001 at 05:50 AM

political ideaology scale:
reactionary - liberalism - moderate - conservative - reactionary

socioeconomic politcal systems:
communism - socialism - liberalism - conservatism - facism

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
schools should be able to choose their students. oh sure, you're gonna get some idiot complaining that it's unfair to their kid because they can't get into a 'good school', but what about the really intelligent kids who are stuck in schools that are far below their ability? ....etc etc etc

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Whats a battle?

------------------
It's not that i'm celibate, it's just i don't give a fuck.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
as for the united states being pussys for backing out of the kyoto protocol, it's NOT that we are being totally greedy, it's that we are suffering a SEVERE energy crisis. if your entire country was experiencing blackouts and industries were unable to function well, you would back out of it too until your had things fixed.

oh yeah and another point-the kyoto protocol is meant to reduce emmissions from high output coal power plants. our power plants are about as efficient and clean as they get, we spent billions on co2 scrubbers. the main target is older inefficient coal plants used in many developing countries which are extremely dirty in comparison. it's not that "no more pollution controls = lots more pollution", it's more like "no more pollution controls = cheaper energy with the same amount of pollution". besides the kyoto protocols there are tons of legsislation on environmental protection.

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The Kyoto Protocal was meant to reduce the amount of CO2 produced cross the board, not just in coal power plants. Have you even read articles on the Kyoto protocal? The US and Canada through a fit when they wouldn't let us buy and sell pollution credits on the open market between countries. But that would defeat the purpose of the protocal now wouldn't it. And there is only an energy crisis in California last I looked, unless there is someplace that I've missed. We do not have a cross the board, all country energy crisis. California is just really, really, really bad at managing its power and planing for its future power needs. Why does this require the entire country to start building more coal and oil power plants? If there are other areas of the country that are experiencing the same power problems as California, then I retract this line of argument. But if I'm right, and California is the only place, then someone please explain to me how our entire country is in an "energy crisis".

you know the air quality back in the 60's was shit but once the catalytic converter was invented the air got much much better.

the socialist form of government is a democracy, which is why I don't quite get everyone's fear of socialists.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
you know the air quality back in the 60's was shit but once the catalytic converter was invented the air got much much better.

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You have no idea how correct that is Cat. Other countries used to laugh at us for putting cats in our cars... for example, Mexico. They didn't believe that it would work. Nowadays, CO2 is about the only thing coming out of a car (by about a 1000 to 1 ratio) when it's not in hard acceleration or decceleration mode. CO2 is a relatively safe gas... in that it isn't actually toxic.

Now, after having cats in our cars for years, our air quality is improving. Mexico City is just starting to mandate cats in new vehicles and go through emission programs because the air quality is horrible.

In America, we identify what is a real problem and work towards solving it. We start by wishing for the technology, funding research (as well as giving commercial incentive), and then legislate around feasible options. We don't sign treaties and hope our technology catches up.

'cept it turns out that the major cause of pollution in mexico city isn't the cars, but leaky propane tanks! weird, huh?

However, the whole Lewinsky scandal reeks of entrapment... certain factions of the Republican party were out to get Clinton from day one - a payback for Watergate, when
"them damn liberals" took down the most crooked president in American history.

They tried to do the same thing to Carter. Unfortunately, Carter turned out to be a better saint than a president. Clinton was a decent human being. Like all humans he made his fair share of mistakes - and the conservatives made sure to beat the hell out of EVERY mistake that he made, or could possibly have made.

As for the context question - he lied about something that had absolutely NOTHING to do about the case in which he was involved. A civil case does NOT give the prosecutors a license to ask anything they want.

Consider this :

Prosecuting attorney : "Mr. So and so, you're being sued because your dog barked at Mrs. Suehappy and scared her. So... how many times do you masturbate in a week?"

Mr. So and so : "Um, er, I don't."

Prosecuting attorney : "Really. So you don't masturbate? That's amazing. You have to get it out some other way... do you fuck sheep?"

Mr. So and so : "What? No!"

Prosecuting attorney : "Well, then, how do you get your sexual release, sir?"

Mr. So and so : "What does this have to do with anything?"

Prosecuting attorney : "Your honor, this line of questioning is necessary to show that Mr. So and so is a sexual deviant who molests his dog so that it will bark and people and scare them."

Judge : "Answer the question, Mr. So-and-so."

Mr. So-and-so : "Fine! I have sex with my wife, ok?"

Prosecuting attorney : "Ah! But here, Mr. So-and-so, is your wife's signed affidavit saying the two of you haven't had sex since your little accident five years ago!"

Mr. So-and-so : "WHAT THE HELL DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THIS CASE?"

Prosecuting attorney : "Folks, this is outrageous. Mr. So-and-so is a pervert and a perjurer! As good Americans, we must demand justice!!!"

ask cathleen willy what a decent human being clinton is. she'd know. he "sexually harassed" (read: raped) her.

as far as the kyoto protocols, one of the things covered there is carbon dioxide production. under the kyoto protocol, a country would have a limit on how much carbon dioxide it could produce industrially. guess what's included in the industrial quota? THE MILITARY.

so finally, all those countries that want a smaller military in the united states because it would further whatever ends they're after (countries like iraq, cuba, and china), would get what they want. that's why bush knew he had to get rid of that kyoto protocol. because it would mean the US had to cut back on military training and reduce the numbers of troops that are active.

call it paranoia all you want, but when someone else wants to reduce your ability to defend yourself, THEY PROBABLY HAVE SOMETHING IN MIND ALREADY. as in 'as soon as they're weak, we attack.' common sense.

and the arsenic thing. my god, that's laughable. 'um, yeah, our regulations are SO TIGHT that there's no water on earth that has less arsenic than we allow.' puh-leeze.

do you know anyone who has a well? they're drinking ground water. many people who have wells DO NOT have the filtration equipment that a commercial water supplier is forced to have. the naturally occurring level of arsenic in their water is higher than the "minimum" that clinton set.

so how many people who have wells do you know that have died of arsenic poisoning?

the dictionary may say that a liberal is one who is 'open to new things' and 'not mired in dogma' but that's NOT true of the political liberals in the US. they're every bit as mired in dogma as the republicans are. it may be steadfastly and blidingly in opposition to the republicans but it IS STILL DOGMA.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

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as far as the kyoto protocols, one of the things covered there is carbon dioxide production. under the kyoto protocol, a country would have a limit on how much carbon dioxide it could produce industrially. guess what's included in the industrial quota? THE MILITARY.

so finally, all those countries that want a smaller military in the united states because it would further whatever ends they're after (countries like iraq, cuba, and china), would get what they want. that's why bush knew he had to get rid of that kyoto protocol. because it would mean the US had to cut back on military training and reduce the numbers of troops that are active.
[/B]

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You really are paranoid! You have obviously proved that you have not read one single thing about the Kyoto protocal and why Bush pulled the US out of it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, I'm just having a hard time not laughing. I several letters sent to senators from Bush, he explained why he pulled us out. He pulled us out because countried like China, Cuba, and Iraq DIDN'T SIGN THE PROTOCAL!!!!!!!! He said it was unfair for the US to have to adhere to it if other countries(i.e., countries we don't like) didn't sign it. He didn't pull us out because of the military. He did it because he was throughing a tantrum, Steve Jobs style. If not everyone is going to do the right thing, therefore the hard thing, then why should we? We should wait till everyone is going to do it before we even try. Bullshit! We are the most powerful country in the world! We can do anything that we set our minds to! We got a man on the moon with less computing power than I have in my PDA! And yet we are saying we can't cut back on our CO2 production, because it is too hard(cry me a river) and because not everyone is going to play. Grow up Bush. Stop forcing your ideals and morals and ajenda on the US and start listening to people outside you party! There are people out there that have the answers, you just have to listen to them.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
im begining to think you are one of those dumbass hippies too demonk

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No, I have a job and I don't smoke pot or do any drugs. I'm not out huging trees, but I will voice my opinion about clear cutting. And I happen to think I'm pretty intelligent too. I have refrained from flat out calling anyone a conservative or referring to someone specific as a Republican in a negative conotation, so I ask the same from you.

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
No, I have a job and I don't smoke pot or do any drugs. I'm not out huging trees, but I will voice my opinion about clear cutting. And I happen to think I'm pretty intelligent too. I have refrained from flat out calling anyone a conservative or referring to someone specific as a Republican in a negative conotation, so I ask the same from you.

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What the FUCK is wrong with clear cutting? Explain to me what your completly uniformed opionion on clear cutting is, you fucking idiot.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

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Originally posted by j0eSmith:
What the [b]FUCK is wrong with clear cutting? Explain to me what your completly uniformed opionion on clear cutting is, you fucking idiot.
[/B]

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Please tell me that was sarcasim as it is sometimes difficult to tell through a message board.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
hey demonk, when pepco calls to tell me that my power is going to be out daily from 5 to 8 pm for now on because environmental legislation made it too expensive to build new power plants for 30 years, I'll tell em' to just cut your power permanantly instead. atleast we won't have to listen to your pointless ramblings anymore.

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It's a free market right? Move. I'm not joking. If a lot of the people in Ca. moved because of the price of power, then maybe the power companies would lower their rates, and the power demand will go down too. The only thing to solve the Ca. energy problem will be direct intervention by the federal government in some way, but that means bigger government. Plus, I never voted on any legislation in California, especially since most of it was passed before I was born. If I had been alive then and living in California, I might have voted for it or I might not have. I don't really know since I don't know what was passed. So, please, in the future keep blame where it lies. On the people in California, not Democrats and/or Liberals in general.

Second; Have you ever even been on a logging block? Do even know how it works?

Third; Do you have ANY first hand knowledge of the pre-millyard logging industry?

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
the only way to resolve california's problems is to REDUCE legislation and restrictions, not add more.

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right. and theres only one way to skin a cat.

quote:

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Originally posted by j0eSmith:
Not really. I was in a somewhat badmood when I wrote it though. Seriously though, what is it that you think is wrong with it[clear cutting]?

Second; Have you ever even been on a logging block? Do even know how it works?

Third; Do you have ANY first hand knowledge of the pre-millyard logging industry?

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First, clear cutting totaly clears a land of tree, hence the name, thus removing the natural habitat for many different species of animals. These animals are then forced to relocate, sometimes they relocate to residencial areas, thus we get problems with animal controls.

Second, No.

Third, No.

But in both cases I can easily obtain information. My father has worked in the forest products industry for over 20 years, so I bet he knows a few things. There's no problem with cutting down trees. It's when we do it indiscriminatly and on incredibly large scales that we cause problems. Thining and other procedures that don't completely desimate an area are a better idea then the whole sale deforestation of clear cutting. Sorry if that isn't to your liking, but that is my opinio.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
hey yeah good idea. lets get the millions of residents and industries to move out of california! where to? how about arizona! i'm sure askheaves would just love that! moron. the only way to resolve california's problems is to REDUCE legislation and restrictions, not add more.

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But the removal of legislation(if that is the source of problems, I dont' really know) won't create any solutions until know power plants can be built. Now I know that takes longer than a weekend. It probably takes around a year or more to create a state of the art, efficient power plant. In the mean time, you will still go without power. You want power now, then the federal government will have to step in and take control. So, until then, shut up and bare with it. You have every right to move out of state if your needs are not being met. The world does not revolve around you and your needs. Sorry if this seems a little incoherent, but I wish it was Friday already. This is going to be a long week.

Clear cutting now is much different. The "animals" are forced to relocate a maybe 2 miles. And its not as if the forests are absolutly TEEMING with wild animals and if they move they all die. Not to mention that endangered animals are fully protected (as in operations stop if someone even thinks they see a.. oh Great Horned Owl for example).

Now clear cuts are much smaller, the Hardwood tree's are left standing, creeks and shit are protected. (although you follow that creek another 20km's and the Highways have culverts that are 8' above the ground and are constantly spraying road salt and calicuim into it. You have no idea what would happen if the Forest Industry even though about doing that.)

So I think you need to update your idea of what a 'clear cut' is.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

Anyway, clear cutting sux0rs when it's old growth forest. Even a lot of loggers think that sort of thing is unnecessary.

Come to think of it, a lot of loggers would make good Democrats... we need only point out that the REAL assholes are the pencil-pushing dickheads up at corporate HQ, and we hate them just as much as the loggers do.

There's a logger / environmentalist alliance waiting to happen...

quote:

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But the removal of legislation(if that is the source of problems, I dont' really know) won't create any solutions until know power plants can be built.

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no, new power plants can't be built because of legislation.

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It probably takes around a year or more to create a state of the art, efficient power plant.

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try 10

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So, until then, shut up and bare with it.

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look, i don't live in california, stop talking to me as if i am personally griping about rolling blackouts.

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You have every right to move out of state if your needs are not being met.

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stop being a self-centered liberal prick. it's not like everyone in california can just pack up and move out.

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The world does not revolve around you and your needs.

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if by "you" you mean "the population", then YES, IT DOES, MORON.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 30, 2001 at 06:27 AM

About the Reagon, Bush shit you've been saying the the Liberal Manifesto threat. The economic boom we had in the 90's was not from Reagon or Bush, or even Clinton. It was because of a lot of technology companies going public. Inversters in general didn't understand them and just jumped on the bandwagon. So, the economy boomed on the back of technology companies. Clinton just happened to be in power at the time. But of course, if a Republican had been in the White House the 90's, then it would be him that caused it in your eyes. Isn't it also odd that at the same time that the technology bubble burst, so did our economy? Hmmm, you think they might have been linked? I think so. But of course, all good things must come from Republicans who where in power 20 years ago, and not from hard working people here and now.

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Originally posted by demonk:
CatKnight, you made it sound in previous posts like you did live in California, so I'm sorry if I miss inturpreted your posts. And when I do say the world does not revolve around you, and do me you, the individual. Yes, the world does revolve around very large groups of people, but not just the size of California. More like the entire population of the US, or China, or India. I know it sucks that people are having rolling black outs. Even you said it would take 10 years for new power plants to be built, so what are the people to do till then? Just suffer through the blackouts for 10 years? Shit no! I can guarente you that there will be a lot of people moving when that little bit of insight comes out. And then, suddently, there will be enough power for everyone left. Then everyone will cheer Bush saying it was all his world and legislation. Then, 10 years later, when the plants are finished, and if there there is a Democrate in the White House, they'll start to blame him(or her, you never know) about all the pollution problems and bald babies and whatnot that people always seem to find(I'm not going to bebate what pollution causes, just that people will say these things), so he'll be forced to shutdown these plants in favor of cleaner power. Now he's the big, bad Liberal and a tree huging hippie, right CatKnight?

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hahahah thats funny

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you were being sarcastic, right?

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About the Reagon, Bush shit you've been saying the the Liberal Manifesto threat. The economic boom we had in the 90's was not from Reagon or Bush, or even Clinton. It was because of a lot of technology companies going public. Inversters in general didn't understand them and just jumped on the bandwagon. So, the economy boomed on the back of technology companies. Clinton just happened to be in power at the time. But of course, if a Republican had been in the White House the 90's, then it would be him that caused it in your eyes. Isn't it also odd that at the same time that the technology bubble burst, so did our economy? Hmmm, you think they might have been linked? I think so. But of course, all good things must come from Republicans who where in power 20 years ago, and not from hard working people here and now.

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that was like 2 years ago. im talking about early-mid 90's.

This message has been edited by CatKnight on May 30, 2001 at 10:20 AM

then again, clintonites are hardly going to agree with doing anything that pisses off china or cuba. after all, they're the ones who spent 8 years selling nuclear secrets and super computers to china, and sending little boys back to a life of slavery in cuba.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

We know why the technology came about. That's easy. The application of that technology came in the form of spreadsheet apps, word processing apps, business apps, factory automation, project tracking, HR databases, calculators, etc. These tools allowed for businesses to slim down their workforce, while still improving productivity. And, that 15 years was probably the fastest business/tech growth period ever, and probably will be ever.

The thing that Reagan's administration did was introduce a bunch of money back into the system. Through trickle-down economics (ie, give money to people, they will spend it and wealth will be created), there was enough of a boon that the technology could catch on and grow.

This wave rode through roughly 15 years (with a minor recession in 1992?) until the internet debacle. That was an artifical consequence of increased numbers of hands in the market, and the speed of information. Prices were overinflated and rightly corrected itself.

What Clinton did is get out of the way, for the most part. Even he couldn't screw up the freight train economy, only tax it a little more. It was a very good decision of him not to tax the internet. Very good.

The same situation came about around the depression. I'm going to screw up the names (because i always do), but basically this: The 1929 economic crash hit. The current president (a Republican... Hoover?) attempted to recover the country by using a sort of Trickle Down economics. That didn't work because it was just too dead. That president got voted out, and the next president (a Democrat... Rosevelt? i might be off by one administration...) brought back the economy by a series of social programs and government work programs and social security and all sorts of other crap... and then, of course, WWII.

So, at times, a conservative approach is appropriate.. sometimes a liberal one. In the 80's, Reagan's approach was appropriate to create an environment that allowed for the technology to bring about a good economy. We've rode a wonderful wave up to 1996 ish (when the world started suffering), and then the artifical late 90's wealth... which I attribute to people's greed.

except for the part about trickle-down economics.

In the 70's and into the early 80's, the economy was stagnant while inflation was going crazy. We had a situation where too much money was chasing too few goods. The country was still very wrapped up in fears about the Great Depression, so the Fed was loathe to contract the money supply until it became blatantly obvious that we were going to have a recession no matter what they did - their only choice was whether to take steps to control inflation or not.

So they hit the brakes on the money supply by jacking the interest rate sky-high. Instead of slowly spiraling down, the economy went into a recession almost overnight. But it also began to recover a few months later. When inflation eased off, the Feds slowly dropped interest rates, raising them slightly whenever inflation showed signs of rearing its ugly head again.

That's pretty much how they've been running things ever since. They try and keep the market running at optimum temperature, rather than letting it thrash around like a wild beast as it tries to right itself.

The Federal Reserve Bank is a prime example of the government doing something right - unless, of course, you think things like the Great Depression are good 'cause it was The Market, Unregulated.

(Yes, I know the FRB was around then, but at the time they weren't nearly as active in managing the economy as they are now. For that matter, they barely knew that the economy could be managed... thank you Mr. Keynes...)

"Trickle-down" economics was a lot of flash and showmanship. Like I said, all politicians try and take credit for a good economy, and blame the other side for a bad one. < Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. >

they're not controlled under the department of treasury, as the US mints are. it's a common misconception, but the government really doesn't own the Federal Reserve Banks that are operating across the country... at least, not any more so than it owns the "first federal bank" in your hometown.

the last thing we'd need is the largest and wealthiest banking system in america controlled by people who potentially lose their job every four years and do things that are less in the interest of a good economy, and more to just irritate the party that's not in power.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

I just thought of something to ask. How many of you here would vote for Colin Powel if he ran for president? I've heard aproval ratings on him were around 70-80\% for president. I think I would vote for him, because he is the right mix of liberal and conservative in just the right areas.

CatKnight, Kuru: all you liberal tree huging hippies suck. Reagon rocked! Clinton isn't even a human being. Dubya will be known as one of our best presidents.

damien, me, some others: that's nice. where's your proof? Reagon screwed us by multiplying debt by 5. Clinton was a sucky in his personal life, but a great president. Much better than Dubya.

There's more details, and a few off topic stuff, but that's the jist.

This message has been edited by demonk on May 31, 2001 at 02:08 PM

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Clinton was a sucky in his personal life, but a great president.

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that's nice. where's your proof?

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This message has been edited by Vigilante on May 31, 2001 at 02:26 PM

Good president.
1) Steped aside and let Greenspan do his job, and that was very good for the economy.
2) Created a balanced budget.
3) Created the first surplus since I can remember.

There's probably more, but I really don't want to spend the hours researching it. I have other work I need to do. At least with him, the rest of the world wasn't laughing at us for having a stupid president. They were laughing at us for having a stupid congress and for what they did to him.

it's not the same animal.

btw, it's REAGAN. not reagon.

i was 10 years old for reagn's last year in office, so i barely remember a lot of his term. what i do remember is studying economics, and that 'trickle down' economics *does work*. you don't see results in one year, or two years, but it does work.

for some of you i wonder if the reason you think clinton was such a good president is that he's the first president you can really say you remember.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

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you don't see results in one year, or two years, but it does work.

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thats exactly what i've been trying to tell deez guyz