Topic: The Double Standard
started by: demonk
I could 'use' a few right now!
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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >
This message has been edited by jim on November 07, 2000 at 11:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LazyGit:
That's that argument quickly solved, lets send the genius to Izrael and after that Indonesia.
cheers
where is Izrael? Is that where Azriel is from? I always like Azreal. I thought he got a bum rap though. If it weren't for Hefty, that cat would have kicked some serious ass.
Your comments are appreciated Git.
I enjoyed the predictable response!
Thanks be to you. God save the Queen!
"Men and women are equal! We can do any job the men can!"
said by a woman, as she did half of the male police officer push-up requirement
like this discussions gonna go anywhere....
What will happen is this: Somebody will say something. Somebody will take offense. Somebody will reply to the offended party. Offended party will try to prove a point..maybe use a little flame...history shows calling somebody a name is always the best way to add validity to an argument.
And on...an on...and on.
Nobody will stop to think it might be a good example of general relativity. In the end men will still make more money. Women will still be sluts. And somebody, if not everybody, will be having an argument that will not be solved.
:P
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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >
cheers
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
Why is it that society doesn't pass judgement on women who physically abuse men? I mean, if a man even grabs a woman's arm, they act like he just bitch slapped her (which IS wrong). But women can usually get away with slapping, pushing, or even kicking men before it's seen as wrong.
It makes sense when you think about the fact that men are (usually) bigger and stronger than women. There's a lower tolerance for violence coming from men towards women than the other way around, because men are a lot more capable of hurting a woman than women are of hurting a man.
As for the slut / stud issue... that one is very old, and probably has a lot to do with the fact that women can get pregnant and men can't. So women get more restraints than men. If a man is going to help raise a baby, he wants to be sure the baby is HIS.
'course, in this day and age, it's a really stupid double standard, but it is slowly changing.
I totally agree about the physical requirements for certain jobs. We had to put up with that shit in the USMC. It's slowly changing though. It used to be Men Perfect Score involed 18 min 3 mile run, 20 pull-ups, and 80 situps in 2 min.
Womens involved a flex arm hang, 40 situps, and a 1 1/2 run.
We did have this one girl in our squad that could perfect score a men's PFT. And when she did the test instead of stopping at 40 situps, or the 1 1/2 mark she did the full 80/3 miles.
Right before I got out of the USMC, they changed it to women now have to do 80 situps and the 3 mile run. They just have a shit load more time than the men to complete it in.
That really bothers me to!
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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >
It is true that things are a little lopesided but shouldn't we deal with it so that none of this stuff ever happens again? Come on demonk, think a little more before you start talking, and learn your history first.
Assume you have 2 equally qualified candidates for a high-level job : a white man and a black man. Who's going to get the job? 9 times out of 10, it's the WHITE man... sometimes for truly racist reasons, and others because a black man just won't "fit in" with the company culture, which just happens to be made up of white males.
What this means is that a black man who wants a high-paying job actually has to be MUCH MORE QUALIFIED than a white candidate.
The same goes for men and women : a man is MUCH MORE likely to get a job than an equally qualified woman. So any woman who wants a high level job has to be much more qualified than any of the male candidates.
This is not equality, and this is not fair.
A lot of people give lip service to equal rights, but fail to realize how heavily the scales are tipped towards white males. Applying the same standards to everybody is a nice idea in theory but it doesn't work in practice. Even people who really believe themselves to be against prejudice are still prejudiced. Seriously... if I showed you an middle-class white guy and a middle-class black guy, and said "who's more trustworthy?" you'd probably pick the white one. If I said "which one is a criminal?" you'd probably pick the black one. And so on.
It sux0rs, but it's true.
By the way, the president of HP is a woman because the CEO deliberately picked a FEMALE candidate... his thinking was that there were women in the company who were just as capable as any man, but there weren't any women at all in the upper levels (VPs, etc.) So he figured, pick a woman president, she'll pick some qualified women to be VPs, and we'll smash this ugly glass wall. He knew his own prejudice and made a conscious choice to counterbalance it. And it was a good choice... morale and productivity at the company has improved, especially among female workers who now believe they have a fair chance at working their way up the corporate ladder.
Now THAT is leadership.
portrman - fuck you!
quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Assume you have 2 equally qualified candidates for a high-level job : a white man and a black man. Who's going to get the job? 9 times out of 10, it's the WHITE man...
That's not affirmative action. My mom has to deal with this shit everyday. She works at The School of Nursing UTA. She is given nothing but test scores, and other information about students, without knowing race, sex, or religion. She picks the quota of people to be admitted. If this group of applicants does not have enough women, black, or whatever minorities. The dean then throws out applicants that are more qualified, to keep the diversity level in the school up.
FUCK THAT SHIT, FUCK THAT SHIT!
quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Assume you have 2 equally qualified candidates for a high-level job : a white man and a black man. Who's going to get the job? 9 times out of 10, it's the WHITE man...
Not if the hiring manager is a black man.
I know the situation you are talking about happens all the time, and it sucks. But you can't force people to hire minorites, simply because they are a minority!
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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >
and i think that adjusting for any handicap is unfair. it results in people not necessarily deserving of a job getting it, and it just causes more hate between people. if youre the white guy who gets turned down from a job because the hiring manager needs to meet his quota, are you gonna say "well he deserves it, my ancestors mistreated his ancestors, so i hope he does well in his new career"? FUCK NO. you are gonna say "i hate that man's black ass, and i hate all black people." maybe not that extreme, but the point stands. it causes more racism. they used to have reverse quotas too, some colleges only accepted a certain number of jewish students, and that would foster racism and such, and it really solves jack shit. get the job on your own merits, or dont complain. theres always another job out there, and if you cant get off your ass to look for it, maybe you dont deserve a job. im always hearing handicapped people say they wanted to be treated like theyre normal....I am all for that.
so maybe the white boss hires more white employees than black employees. so maybe he'll hire more men than women. BFD. for those of you who misssed it, Big Fucking Deal. i knew going into engineering that there would be more men than women. there just are for whatever reason, it seems women don't go into computer engineering/electrical engineering as much as men do. so? are we supposed to start not hiring or accepting males who are more qualified than some of the women so that we have a 'more equal balance'?
to me, that's utter bullshit. you'll never have an equal balance by force that produces quality engineers (i'm using engineering because it's what i'm familiar with) until you have as many women who are just flat out INTERESTED IN IT as men.
oh, and as far as the physical standards go, i think women and men should have the same set. exactly the same. because as politically fucking incorrect as it is, if my house catches on fire, i want the MALE fireman who can carry my ass outa there, rather than the FEMALE fireman who is required to only be able to lift half what a man is.
btw, i am a female, and in the course of my occupations, i've worked for an all male construction crew. i was required to do the same amount of work as the men, and i did it.
unlike those idiot feminists, i don't NEED a handicap to do my job. oh yeah, and if some male boss won't hire me for his company and give me a piece of the pie, well then this is america, and i can go out there and make MY OWN DAMN PIE. which i'd much rather do than have some law force that asshole to hire me 
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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin
quote:
and give me a piece of the pie, well then this is america, and i can go out there and make MY OWN DAMN PIE.
kuru, is this an oblique lesbian reference?
reman
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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.
that and i really like pie. as in the dessert. mmmmmm apple... pumpkin...peach... raspberry....
food. nummy.
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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin
1) Society is not a level playing field, and while we don't necessarily have to make up for past wrongs, we need to correct the present and forseeable future ones. Not everyone has the same chances, not based on class, but sex and race. That is a fact! The glass ceiling does exsit, racist policies do exist. These things may not be overt anymore but they are there, systemic and insitutional barriers which exist to filter out the undesirables (read: people of colour, immigrants and women).
2) Affrimative Action was not originally designed around quotas. However this is what everyone latches on to as evidence that it should be dismantled. AA is intended that if one is faced with the equally qualified black and white man, the manager chose the black man if there is an unpropotionate amount of blacks in the company. It is not "pick the unqualified balck man to make the company a nice colage". This argument assumes that the person of colour or the woman is automatically unqualified. Most people get their jobs by the old "who you know", neopotism and cronism. AA helps to break these barriers.
3) As for the military, police and fire departments, there are rules and regulations that subtely discriminate against women and minorities. One needs to look at these rules and regulations from another perspective than the classic white middle-class male/female perspective to see them.
Bottom line: don't assume that a company (including public serivces) that has an AA policy is hiring unqualified individuals. If you assume that you are reinforcing the sexist and racist beliefs that those policies are designed to counter.
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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau
you can please all the people, some of the time, or you can please some of the people, all of the time. you can never please all of the people, all of the time. which sux
btw that quote was obviously paraphrased, i can't remember exactly how it goes
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"i was born without any nads, so i guess like, my kids wont have nads either" - Beavis
Metal/Electronic/Ambient etc..
< http://www.mp3.com/fatbitch >
quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
if two applicants for a job have the exact same qualifications(i doubt that happens much, but still) why should the black guy get the job instead of the white guy? doesnt the white guy need money also? doesnt he need to pay rent and buy food too? AA is reverse discrimination, and thats all it is.
Yes the white guy needs money too, but in contemporary society he has a better chance of getting a job than the black man because of discrimination. Reverse discrimination is a crock of shit. Discrimination is discrimination whether it's by blacks towards whites or vise versa. The reason why people call it reverse discrimination is because when it's happening towards white men its a big problem, deserving another name, however when it's happening towards black men it's just plain old everyday discrimination. Do you people actually deny that racism and sexism exist in society and the job market? And is that your basis for arguing against AA? Or is it that you as white males feel your job prospects will be threatened due to AA? If so, you finally know how women and people of colour have felt for decades - that they won't get a good job based solely on thier gender or race.
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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau
And kuru, you can work your tail off and when you hit your fat head against the glass ceiling and are prevented from promotion because of your uterus and vagina, just remember to "deal with it!" I on the other hand will fight to prevent it...I can only hope I crush you in my quest for power.
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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau
I am still shocked when I am faced with bigotry in this day and age, but when I think about it, there are people alive today who lived when no women had the vote (well here in australia anyway, and we were one of the first countries to get womens suffrage) and when aboriginies were not classed as australian citizens. they were brought up this way, ingrained into them, just as we were brought up in a PC culture from the 80's.
i agree with kuru that I think everyone should be judged on their merits and not their gender/race/religion. that's all well and nice, but that fact is that there is still engendered sexism etc in our society since it wasnt balanced to begin with.
I think to solve this there needs be no affirmative action or quotos, but gradually everything will even itself out, and people will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about when we are all equal. we have advanced very quckly as a social organism in the last 50 years, we dont need to overcompensate, compared to the last 100,000 years of human existance i think we are doing very well thank you very much.
reman
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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.
but i am flat out dead set opposed to AA and all the quota bullshit. AA takes the focus of hiring off of 'is the candidate qualified' and puts it square on 'what race/gender is the candidate.'
that IS discrimination. less qualified minorities or women get jobs that a more qualified white male wouldn't get because the employer has to fill the quota. that, in my opinion, is horse shit.
AA does nothing more than make it LEGAL and expected to discriminate against white, heterosexual, able-bodied males. you can call me a racist or a sexist if you want, but that's the truth. so fuck the politically correct, fuck AA, fuck the hate crimes laws. all those laws do is condone and enforce the discrimination against the WHAMs.
dido, as for your statement that says that AA makes the company hire a black candidate over an equally qualified white candidate, well, that's just bullshit too. it's government interference into the right of a private citizen to run his (or her) company his(or her) way. it's not the job of the government to decide that because there are 60\% white people and 40\% black people in a given population, that 60\% of the employees of a company there should be white, and 40\% black. it's the job of the government to stay out of the way of people who have risked things to start companies, and respect these people's rights to run their business as they see fit.
as far as the glass ceiling, i've heard that song before. again and again. and bottom line, if a woman puts in the time, the effort, and the dedication to climb the ladder, she WILL. i'm sick of the fact that women want to be able to take off five, six, seven MONTHS for maternity leave in an industry like mine (computer engineering) and expect that they won't have gotten passed over for seniority and other things. hell, the turnaround time on the technology we design is shorter than a maternity leave. so my point? you leave, you miss out.
if someone wants to get ahead, they better be prepared to be there 60, 70, 80 hours a week like the rest of the people who move upward in the company.
as far as the 'discrimination' in military, firefighting, and police work. GOOD. the standards are tough, and probably should be tougher. if this excludes a lot of women, too damn bad. it's the JOB of these people to guarantee safety. to be able to run a mile carrying a wounded comrade on their back. to haul a half-dead adult out of a burning building, to wrestle an armed suspect to the ground. if women want these jobs, they should have to face the EXACT same rigorous standards as the men. not a watered down version so we can 'be fair' and 'promote a proportional ratio.'
life is not fair. it's not a 50/50 split. nothing is equal. the playing field is rocky. so what? tough it out. play hard, but play fair. enough of this whining about needing some 'special help' or 'an equality law.'
damn. i'm sick of it. i want to get a job because i earned it. not because some federal piece of bullshit legislation forced someone into hiring me.
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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin
This message has been edited by kuru on November 15, 2000 at 12:16 PM
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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass
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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau
Though as Dennis Miller says, "That's my opinion, I could be wrong."
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A good programmer is someone who looks both ways on a one-way street
what i have also noticed is that women are the ones screaming "look at me i'm different but don't you dare act like you know it."
dido, you're never going to get equality as a human being if you walk around insisting that everyone stand up and take notice of your vagina. i learned that from personal experience. there's a glass ceiling? so what. there are also sledgehammers.
my point, which you obviously missed, is that the government has no right to control the operation of a private business. if you don't like it that bob smith won't promote you, FIND A NEW JOB. the honest truth is that while there was a time for the fighting and the bloodshed, it's over. the only thing these laws do now is continue to emphasize the differences. i firmly believe that AA laws are the things that actually enforce the stereotypes.
feminists, as i have seen, are the ones who keep women 'down below the glass ceiling,' constantly denouncing women who do want to have kids, who want to stay home. at the same time that they seem to be saying 'women you need to act more like men,' i also hear out of their mouths that the 'traditionally' male personality traits are bad and wrong. nobody is going to get to the top of the cut-throat corporate ladder without being in there for the good fight. and you'll certainly never get to the top of it if you expect that instead of earning it, it should be handed to you.
that's the difference between me and a feminist, dido. i don't need a law, a man, a government, an employer to give me anything. i've earned my position in life and i will continue to do so. i will put in 60 or 80 hours a week, right next to my counterparts, male or female, and get the job done. i will be paid what i'm worth to my employer. if i think i'm worth more than he (or she) pays me, i'm free to send my resume to all the competitors. i can start my own company.
as for this 'half a woman' because you don't want kids, i don't know where you got that chip on your shoulder. i don't want kids. i've never wanted kids. i'm a very driven person, i like my things, my job, my freedom. unlike you, however, i don't have this chip on my shoulder that seems to be hating the world because you had to choose between kids and the career world. that, dido, is how the world works. career men and women who have kids and climb the ladder probably see their kids for two or three hours a week. that's a choice they made. that's a choice i have made. but i'm not going to walk around accusing the world of having forced me to sacrifice anything.
we've come a hell of a long way as human beings in this world. sometimes so far that we forgot the realities of the past. women weren't always as free as they are now, but there are still a lot of misconceptions about how 'enslaved' they really were. women landowners, countesses, queens, and empresses weilded money and power back in the dark ages. many many civilizations in north and south america throughout history were entirely matriarchal. the jewish religion firmly believes that the mother's religion is dominant and handed down to the children.
i respect women like susan b. anthony, and catherine the great. they did what they had to do, and they did it because they wanted to be recognized as human beings. catherine the great didn't want to be known as a good female leader, she wanted to be known as a good leader. what feminists, and often black, latino, asian and other 'minority' leaders have forgotten is that if you continue to fight to be recognized for how great a female, black, latino, asian <insert profession here>, you lose the opportunity to just be recognized on your merits.
me, i want to be recognized as a good engineer, not a good female engineer. i think the reason i haven't seen this 'glass ceiling' and discrimination stuff in my own life is that i don't act as if i'm any different than any other engineer. sure, it's apparent that i'm female. sure, it's apparent that many of my colleagues are not. but what i've found is that supervisors, both men and women, really resent it being thrown in their face all the time that 'i'm a woman' or 'i'm black' or 'i'm mexican.'
i think that i've gotten respect in my professional life because i've done my best to do my job, not to do my best to be a woman doing my job. if you go in with the attitude that you're different, and that people should always recognize that you're different, you will never be treated the same.
that make sense?
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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin
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"It's like I have a shotgun in my mouth, and I've got my finger on the trigger, and I like the taste of the gunmetal." - Robert Downey Jr.