I think I’m going to be sick.

What the hell is wrong with people’s priorities? I mean, there are people that badly need our aid, not just in foreign countries, but behind our own borders! Think about it:

quote:

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The CIA World Factbook
The US has the most technologically powerful, diverse, advanced, and largest economy in the world, with a per capita GDP of ั,900…a purchasing power of ű.255 trillion…[and] a real growth rate of 4.1\%

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Yet, we still have the following:

1. 12.7\% (17,703,800) of our population below the poverty line;
   
2. a 4.2\% (5,576,000) unemployment rate;
   
3. a 2\% (2,788,000) illiteracy rate amongst citizens 15 years and up;
   
4. 2.1\% (1,300,000) of the 63,179,000 youths in this country are homeless or runaways;
   
5. 581,429 cases of AIDS have been reported to the CDC, wherein 84\% (488,300) were males aged 13 or older, 15\% (85,500) were females aged 13 or older, and 1\% (7,629) were children under age 13;
   
6. An estimated 650,000 to 900,000 citizens living with HIV…

…and the list goes on and on. So, are we devoting our full attention and resources to quelling the remaining problems? Nope. We seem to find more importance in saving our fucking worthless pets.

quote:

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< http://www.tcsn.net/terriyork/yt1995.htm >
We went to a breeder in the area who raised poodles and Yorkies. She had a lovely little male Yorkie that she wanted 辎 for.

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辎??!! For a stupid friggin’ mutt?! For crying out loud, just think about how many starving people you could have fed for that amount. Think about how much penicillin you could have purchased for HUMAN BEINGS dying slowly and miserably from Strep Throat.

Take a look in your local grocery store. They sell “doggie ice cream,” “kittie bottled water,” and a bunch of other bullshit no one really needs.

I’m too ill to continue.

People have the ability to choose thier own destinies. People can get a job. Whether it be McDonalds, pickin up trash, mowing peoples yards. People have no one to blame for their situations but themselves.

I have 4 dogs, and if they want some damn doggie ice cream, then doggie ice cream they get.

I chose to have animals and love and care for them. They are MY responsibility because I chose it.

I WILL NOT PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSES MISTAKES!!!

I would however gladly adopt an abused animal and take care of it.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Also, look at your own statistics whiskey. we have a 4.2\% unemployement rate. WTF are you complaining about!!!!!! That is the lowest I've ever seen it! And it just keeps getting lower! The problems are going to start getting fixed!

Instead of buying a ุ,000 vehicle, buy an ป,000 one that does the same job and give the rest to charity. You will feel a lot better.

Me, I like to spend MY money on ME! I earned it. It wasn't given to me, I was NOT brought up a rich kid, I worked very hard to get to where I am to day. And I like my luxories, and that's that.

If I'm going to help someone, they are going to come mow my lawn, pick the weeds in my flower bed, and wash my cars, and EARN MY HELP!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

By the way Jim, apparently you don't get what I'm saying. Maybe you’re having bad day in the reading comprehension department. To reiterate, I never said, "don't spend your hard earned money on yourself," or "give your entire paycheck to charity."

But I did mention that I think some people have ridiculous priorities - weighing the life of a petty animal over the life of a human.

So go ahead, spend your money on yourself. Splurge it on your family and friends all you want. That’s fine. But don't be a fool and waste your money searching for or saving the life of an animal. No primate, beast, or other animal is worth more than a human. Especially when there are lost, suffering, and dying children/adults all over the globe.

I’m sure you still disagree, Jimbo. I bet you’re thinking about how you don’t owe any human a lick of help, and you’d rather help an innocent animal.

People like you make this world a shitty place.

Also I fail to see why it is taken so forgranted that all other animals are "sub human". By what criteria are you judging them? You're making a decision based solely on your moral instinct that the lives of these are less valuable than a humans life. As I say, this is purely an instinctive judgement and has no logical weight.

Me, I'll spend my damn money exactly how i want to, and if someone else can't afford food then boo hoo.

You, of course, whisky are free to spend your loot on whatever cause to see fit, but don't think that your choice of wealth distribution is somehow better than everyone elses.

We do not earn things just by being. A human doesn't earn food just by existing. Animals don't, so why should humans?

As I had said, maybe if i had some say in whether people were born or not then i might feel some sense of responsibility towards their welfare - maybe.

This message has been edited by DuSTman on November 02, 2000 at 02:31 PM

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"Everyone's favorite implement for any task"
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quote:

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
So you're saying that because someone else that I probably don't even know decides to have a child - a process that I have zero choice in, I am then somehow bound to help the little shit for the rest of my life, is that it?

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For crying out loud, where and when the hell did I say that?!

quote:

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So go ahead, spend your money on yourself. Splurge it on your family and friends all you want. That’s fine. But don't be a fool and waste your money searching for or saving the life of an animal. No primate, beast, or other animal is worth more than a human. Especially when there are lost, suffering, and dying children/adults all over the globe.

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That is my opinion. Agree with it or not, that is the extent of my arguement. I never said "help the little shit for the rest of his life," etc etc...

And if you can't see why a human being's life carries more worth than a dog's or a fucking cat's...then I think you're a lost cause. We don't send hostage rescue teams after stolen cows...

Your view that humans are better than cows seems to be based on nothing other than your moral judgement.

Humans therefore are supposedly worth more than cows because ... because they're human, and so are you.

Brilliant. I am converted!

quote:

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
Humans therefore are supposedly worth more than cows because ... because they're human, and so are you.

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I don't see why you would think this is a strange idea. You would probably be more likely to help a friend or relative than a complete stranger; why is it any different to say that you would sooner help a member of your own species than a member of another.

Human beings do have a responsibility to each other, simply because we live, not isolated and in a vacuum, but in a community. "No man is an island" is a phrase which sums this up nicely. You have a responsibility to help your fellow human beings and if you do not help them you are partially to blame for what happens to them.

If you spent the money on the dog, the dog will continue loving you and being your constant companian. Give it to the human, and he may just say thanks and thats the last time you would see him.

The value of a human life is not by default the most value life form on this planet. Some could argue that it is the least since there is so many of us and we are killing this planet faster than anything else. The value of a life is not something that we have a right to rant some over others. To do so would be to take full responsibility for every single life on the entire planet. Until we are mature enough as a race to do so, we have no right.

Finally: do whatever you want to do with your own money. But don't look down on other for not spending theirs the same way as you do. This is a free country(maybe world someday).

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
The value of a life is not something that we have a right to rant some over others. To do so would be to take full responsibility for every single life on the entire planet. Until we are mature enough as a race to do so, we have no right.

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Well, as you mentioned earlier, human beings are coming quite close to destroying this planet. So in a sense, we are responsible for every life on this planet, because if we don't do anything those lives are going to be lost. Are we mature enough as a race to handle this responsibility? Certainly not. At the moment we're flailing around wildly, without considering the repercussions of our actions, similar to a baby just learning how to move around. But our maturity as a race will come when we realize that those problems have to be solved and we are responsible for solving them. Similarly, your maturity as an individual is based on your willingness to see what is happening in the world around you and to do your part to help solve those problems.

This message has been edited by Michael on November 02, 2000 at 04:13 PM

I second whiskey when he said it's people like you guys that make this world a shitty place!

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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau

This message has been edited by dido on November 02, 2000 at 04:21 PM

quote:

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Human beings do have a responsibility to each other, simply because we live, not isolated and in a vacuum, but in a community. "No man is an island" is a phrase which sums this up nicely. You have a responsibility to help your fellow human beings and if you do not help them you are partially to blame for what happens to them.

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We have a responsibility to other humans simply because they live? I don't think so - basically we're not allowed to kill them.

If we arn't allowed to kill them then why are we allowed to make the inverse decision.

Yes, anything that happens only happens because no-one prevented it, from a certain logical viewpoint, and you can use this same logic to say that if someone starves, it was because no-one gave them food, therefore it happened because you didn't give them food, and therefore it is your fault.

I am not going to accept responsibility for every hardship endured by everyone.

Bad things happen. People starve, people live in the streets. I do not have a responsibility to rectify the situation. There are always going to be people that aren't as well off, or as fortunate as others. Right place, right time.

I never accepted any responsibility for any other human, and I am not allowed to kill other humans, and have no control over whether they are born or not. Where does this responsibility come from?

quote:

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Originally posted by dido:
Now I don't put the value of a humans life over an animal, but I have a heart. The despicable amount of children living in poverty deserve to be helped, not walked over. They didn't put themselves there, why should they be punished??

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They didn't put themselves there, and they arn't being punished - we arn't sending mighty armies of trained warriors to steal their food - they just arn't being helped.

They didn't put themselves there, but neither did I.

By the way *why* do they deserve to be helped? they deserve to be help because they were born? gimme a break.

quote:

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I second whiskey when he said it's people like you guys that make this world a shitty place!

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I am close to tears.

quote:

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
I am not going to accept responsibility for every hardship endured by everyone.

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Well if we don't who will?

Look at how many people each year die from drunk driving, suicide, drug overdoses, starvation, preventable disease, violence... All of these are preventable. If you walk past someone who needs help and do nothing, then yes, you are responsible. Responsible because through your action, their life could have turned out differently. If someone at your school becomes so lonely that they end up shooting themselves, and you could have talked to them or even smiled and said hello once and a while and yet didn't, you loaded the gun and put it in their hand. And if someone starves to death or is killed by some disease that could easily have been prevented if they had the money, and yet you walked past them on the street corner and saw them and did nothing, you might as well have killed them yourself. Yes, other people are responsible, but don't try to blame it on society or human nature. You are a member of society and that means that you are individually responsible for the lives of everyone around you.

I will not give money out to people just because the come up and ask for it. How do I know that they will actually use the money to help themselves? A lot of homeless people just get booze and drink the problems away. I would rather give the money to a social program that would give them food and clothing and possibly some kind of job training. That is how you really help out the homeless. Give to the social programs and support measures that will provide more funding for them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael:
Well if we don't [save them]who will? Look at how many people each year die from drunk driving, suicide, drug overdoses, starvation, preventable disease, violence... All of these are preventable.

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I am going to come off like a prick here; but, why should we? If I give someone my 񘧸 (which I don’t have) they aren’t going to be saved, they are going to spend it and then revert to begging again. If someone wants to commit suicide then LET THEM, they aren’t going to contribute anything to society anyway. Why do we have to save the week and suffering when there are already too many damn people on this planet(IMO) Any help I give is insignificant and the effects are fleeting. Besides, as Sithiee said I am already paying taxes and therefore making a contribution regardless.

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Of course, that’s just my opinion; I could be wrong. -Dennis Miller

The point centers on priorities. Have you ever seen the old commercial where a whole town is looking for a lost dog, and they all pass by an alleyway where a runaway child is sleeping between two trashcans? That is the essence of my arguement.

I just don't agree with spending money on a sub-human lifeform before helping actual people. That's bullshit. Sure, people make mistakes, but are they not to be forgiven? Is it such a crime to help them out?

Sure, our unemployment rate is low, but it still exists. And it is no one statistic by itself that concerns me - rather it is the combination of them all.

Overall, I don't think owning pets is wrong...I just think a lot of people waste their money on stupid shit that can have more humanitarian and practical applications.

edit:basically, my opinion is that a sick or dying animal should be killed before grand efforts are made to save it...because there are a lot more deserving people out there that could use the wasted money.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on November 02, 2000 at 12:33 PM

my last dog i would safely say was the love of my life. she brought me so much joy and happiness and when she died (hit by a car) i would have given my own life to spare hers. i feel similarily about my current dog, he is able to cheer me up no matter what, and is always running around being cute and making a nuisance of himself. i would give everything i own if i had to, even if it meant living on the street, as long as i had him. DONT give me shit about 'sub-human' and 'petty'. ū,000 is nothing compared to the love of a companion

and like jim said, its my money, i earnt it, i'll spend it on whatever the hell i want

This message has been edited by fatbitch on November 03, 2000 at 03:54 AM

quote:

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Wouldn't that royally SUCK ASS if every person around you had the idea in their head that "I WILL NOT PAY FOR SOMEONE ELSES MISTAKES"??

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Yes, suck ass it may be, and we may want other people's help. That does not mean other people should give it. Sometimes fortune deals a crappy hand, y'know, and that may result in the starvation of some people.

I may bitterly curse in that situation, but here and now I can calmly say don't help me - if i can't get MYSELF back up & running (which i would be quite unlikely to in above situation) then death is the right thing for me.

May the crows that feed on my rotting corpse enjoy the meal!

quote:

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Originally posted by DUsTman:
I may bitterly curse in that situation, but here and now I can calmly say don't help me - if i can't get MYSELF back up & running (which i would be quite unlikely to in above situation) then death is the right thing for me.

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Are you saying that you would rather die than accept help from someone else?

No matter how well you live your life, there are going to be times when you need help from other people. Everyone needs "somebody to lean on" at some point in their life. So isn't it better for everyone to be willing to help each other than to just be a collection of isolated individuals with no concern for the rest of humanity?

just imagine what a society would be like where everyone was willing to help everyone else. Most of the problems that we have today would disappear. And don't try to say that that society would just get dragged down by trying to help and end up with everyone suffering rather than just some people; If you pay any atention to what goes on in this country you would know that we have so much food and so much money that we could easily support a population many times our size.

quote:

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Originally posted by demonk:
Hey Michael, how many people have you saved? You can't tell me that you haven't helped out hundreds of people with a value system like yours.

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I would say that I do have friends whose lives are changed because I made the effort to befriend them. It is quite posible that one friend of mine could have committed suicide if I and several others had not talked him out of it. And I do make an effort to help people, although I do not earn enough to make much of a contribution to charity. And I give several hours of my time every week to helping others and simply trying to be available for anyone who needs someone to talk to. I may not fully live up to my ideals, but nor do I simply preach thm without trying to follow up on what I believe.

I give and help out at a place called Operation Kindness. It's a no kill animal shelter.

I would glady help out a person who was willing to help themselves. But if you can't find something better to do, than sit on a street corner and beg for change.... Well... You are hopeless...

Have you seen the people that come up to your car and wash your windows? I'll give them a buck or two.

All of these people have the ability to change their lives.

Here are my dogs... I love them all!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

You can't live your life with blinkers on your eyes!

"People are homeless. That's their problem."
Uh? WTF? Because they, as dido said, CHOSE to grow up in some slum?

<nazi>Ah, I see your reasoning now.</nazi>

"What's the point in giving money to people? They'll just go spend it on booze!"

<nazi>Right again!</nazi>

Fuck you. If you can't give a certain disadvantaged group direct help (eg crackheads) then if you want to help give to a charity or society that HELPS crackheads and gets them off the street.

As for saving lives, yup, done that too. Only seen the girl twice since, and she was mad at me at the time for doing it, I found out she had taken an overdose of paracetamol (about 36 tablets) - and I called an ambulance. If I hadn't had made that call she'd be dead.

<nazi>Woo, but she took an overdose, that's her problem!</nazi>

Erm, no, it WAS. That's the point. I saw I could help and therefore it was my responsibility to do what I could (only calling an ambulance but it worked).

Don't pretend you all live in your little castles, we have a society now. That's what society means. Being there for other people.

Sheesh. If you had ANY idea what life was like on the other side of the fence you'd all commit ritual suicide for the stuff you've been saying.

And as a footnote, my family have got into serious debt before where we could hardly afford food "just to save the family pet". Look at that phrase - FAMILY PET. Part of the family. Duh.

Mike

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

Of course, I make certain exceptions - ie, we'd be extinct if parents didn't feed their children, etc, but once "launched" into the world as an independant, they should bloody well be independant.

If something really shitty happens to me and means that I can't afford food and shelter, then that means my death.

Sometimes bad things happen irrespective of how clever or talented someone is. If they manage to get out of that situation then as far as I'm concerned they've earned their escape from that situation.

That's all I'm saying.

I certainly would not want to live in a world where everyone helps everyone else. My life is my own goddamn business. Yours is yours. Your misfortune is yours, mine is mine. Lets keep it that way.

But I DON'T believe in something for nothing.

One paticular group I have sympathy for is homeless disable veterans. These people risked thier lives for their country. Missing college... Becoming disabled.... And then abondened by their country they fought so vigourously to protect. Not cool.

But people that sit around feeling sorry for themselves do not get my respect, nor my help. I do NOT feel sorry for those people.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

---

"People are homeless. That's their problem."
Uh? WTF? Because they, as dido said, CHOSE to grow up in some slum?

---

No. It's their problem because it's their problem. I am well aware that they at no point chose to live in a slum, however, that is what their situation is, and that is not a problem for anyone else. From that point on if they manage to get "back on their feet" then good for them, if not they die. Their death isn't a problem for anyone else but them, therefore their homelessness is not a problem for anyone else but them.

quote:

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As for saving lives, yup, done that too. Only seen the girl twice since, and she was mad at me at the time for doing it, I found out she had taken an overdose of paracetamol (about 36 tablets) - and I called an ambulance. If I hadn't had made that call she'd be dead.

<nazi>Woo, but she took an overdose, that's her problem!</nazi>

Erm, no, it WAS. That's the point. I saw I could help and therefore it was my responsibility to do what I could (only calling an ambulance but it worked).

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What you should have done was minded your own damned business. Her decision to take those pills had NOTHING to do with you. NOTHING!

She decided to kill herself, and it was her life and therefore her choice. Your opinion on whether she should or not was irrelevant.

Damn, I'm not suprised she was pissed at you. In the same situation I would have been.

quote:

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Don't pretend you all live in your little castles, we have a society now. That's what society means. Being there for other people.

Sheesh. If you had ANY idea what life was like on the other side of the fence you'd all commit ritual suicide for the stuff you've been saying.

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Depends. Maybe if I lived in that situation I might choose suicide if it was that bad. That would be my business, and not yours.

I really don't like working, and having to pay bills and all that stuff.

Would you guys pay for my stuff if I quit my job?

Obviously that is an extreme, but the premise is the same. If you want food, you need money, to get money, you have to work... It's the same rules for everyone.

Don't like it? Die.

Have you ever seen those guys with the signs... "Will work for food."

Ask one to mow your lawn. Go on... I've made offers to 3 people to do some work for me in my life and was turned down by all 3.

They just want you to give them money. They DON'T want to earn it. They want everything for free. FUCK THOSE SELFISH, LOW LIFE, DIRTY, STINKY, NASTY, BASTARDS!!

Now I just go to McDonald's and steal one of those pads with the applications on it, and pass those out.

Oh! The radio station I listen to here in Dallas/Ft. Worth. There is a homeless guy that lives under the bridge that they always talk about. They actually had one of the guys go down there with a cell phone and they talked to him for a while. Learned all his hardships and whatever. Then offered him a job, clean clothes, a place to bathe. They offered to help him get started again.

He agreed. But he never showed up to work.

Piece of ungrateful shit! Fuck em!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

edit: and you're right we may not share the same value system, but I would prefere to have a heart over having a ton of money anyday. You know the old saying "money can't buy you happiness" well it can't buy you a conscious either. I'm just glad I, and a few others on this board, have one.
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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau

This message has been edited by dido on November 03, 2000 at 09:55 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by dido:
So what guys, should a two year old child who has been born to a crack-head and abandoned in a slum pick itself up by it's bootstraps and get a job? Should the 12 year old you has no education just go out and get a job?

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They should try. If they cant (likely in those situations) they should Fuck Off And Die(TM).

It has been argued that other peoples problems are mine because they didn't choose to have those problems. Crap. Other peoples problems are not mine by any sort of default, and I will not have other peoples crappy luck shovelled onto me.

Contrary to what other people think I am not obligated to help other people out of holes, even if they did not put themselves there, just because I can. No, no, no.

quote:

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Originally posted by dido:
There are millions of homeless people in the US, and there are even more families who are one step away from being homeless, do you really think your encounter with THREE of them entitles you to pass judgement on all of them?

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If I were you, I'd look up my statistics before making a bold statement like that. Last time I heard, there were less than a million homeless people in the US, and not many more than that who were on the brink of loosing their homes.

Now here's something for you to consider: who the fuck are you to decide what I or anyone else should do with what we have earned? Are you god? Do you have the right to decide who is responsible for who lives and dies due to circumstances such as poverty and malnutrition? If you feel so bad about these poor hungry masses, don't spend that ũ on a cold soda, go get a drink from the nearest fountain and donate that ũ to charity. It'll keep some child somewhere alive for one day, so you should feel better. But if you want me to give up my right to decide what I spend my money on, Fuck You Bitch! If I want to spend my money on Charity, then I will. If not, who are you to judge me? Because you would spend your money on charity doesn't make you a better person than I, doesn't give you any more right to live and make decisions than I.

And before you start, I have given generously before to causes I believed in, but I have also spent a hell of a lot of my earnings on myself, for my stereo, movies, CD's, my education, and the ū,000 I've put into my computer system over the past year. Now as far as I'm concerned, if you want to put values on things, that ū,000 being spent on a computer is more of a waste than the money that person spent on their pet. Am I sorry for it? Do I regret or feel bad for not giving that 񘧸 to charity? Hell no!

You can feel outraged that things like that happen, but it doesn't help your cause to lay a guilt trip on people for things they are not responsible for. We aren't gods, we can't be all things to all people. And if you want to feel so bad, one thing you could do to help the human race would be to sterilize yourself so your kids don't add to the drain on natural resources that is the human race.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellraiser:
You can feel outraged that things like that happen, but it doesn't help your cause to lay a guilt trip on people for things they are not responsible for. We aren't gods, we can't be all things to all people

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Yes, but <cliche>even if we can't do everything, we can still do something</cliche>. I'm not saying that you have to go give away all of your money, but you can make a difference even without money. Simply taking the time to aknowledge someone else's existance can put them in a better mood. Being willing to talk to someone who looks lonely can save them from depression. You don't have to save the world, and you shouldn't get so involved in other peoples problems that you start having problems too, but there is a lot that you can do with little or no cost or effort if you are simply willing to care about other people.

I gotta say, sure, have compassion. But look at this. I work for my money. I earn it. I can do as i please with it. And that means spending it on me. You people say "you are part of society..blah blah blah". Wrong. I am not part of society. A Society is formed based on mutal consent. Everyone must agree. And i dont. Therefore i am not part of your society. I think that people who try to impress their moral standards on other people are the worst kind of human being; They are the cause of all wars, the ball and chain placed on humanity as a cosmic joke. They drag and yank and wont be happy till everyone agrees...with them. They are so righteous, that they are blinded to the flaws in thier arguments. They are so arrogant that they insult other people, calling them shitty for not agreeing. So sure are they in their judgement. Fuck you. You cannot judge me. I have an open mind. yours is closed. call me shitty, say i make the world shitty, but i say it is you who make it shitty. Your attempts to enforce morality never work-they only cause more pain and destruction. Hitler tried to enforce his morality on the world too. You want to sit back and claim we are worse than you because you want to help people and we dont?

Tell me why people are worth saving. I will listen to you and consider what you say because you are human. I will even give you money and help you out because i feel guilty. And you know what? It pisses me off. Fuckers like you have created a society where i was brought up with no choice taught certain things. These things make me feel guilty although logically and rationally i dont. And people asking for a handout make me guilty. Then i am mad at being made to feel guilty.

i hate your society for what it has done to me, the morals that it tried to force me to agree to.

Fuck you and fuck your society. You go fucking help others who need it. I will go sit here and do what makes me happy. Helping homeless fuckers who wont help themselves sickens me, and encourages the continuation of homeless fuckers. If you take care of them, more will come. let em die, and they will die off.
Bleeding heart mofo's, fuck you too.

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Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

i think the number one rule that everyone should have in mind at all times is: do unto others..

I'm not saying give up everything you have that youve worked so hard to get, but just realize that the person contemplating suicide (for a previous example) might not be a lost cause. maybe you COULD be nice to them, help them a little, and in 2 months they'll be productive helpful members of society. maybe even a good friend.

props to whiskey and michael- people such as yourselves give me hope for this planet

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aventari
"If we can't fix it -- we'll fix it so nobody can." -- B. Gibbons

And I'm not sure if you were directing the society comment towards me, but I do choose to be part of society, however I will not hold myself responsible, or allow others to hold me responsible for THEIR personal problems!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
The only challenge of our existence is that we must make enough money to survive...

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That's quite an empty existence...

Money is not the goal of life. It is the very least of many different things that you need in order to live a fulfilling life. Can you seriously say that if you were given a billion dollars tomorrow, you would be perfectly happy for the rest of your life? I gurantee you that you would not be. Certainly, that money might free you to pursue other forms of fulfillment, but the money alone could never be enough to fill your life.

For a fullfilling life, yes, you need money, you need shelter, you need to have all your physical needs provided for. But you also need to fit into some community, to feel that you are a part of something bigger than yourself. You will also not be happy in life without love and some meaningful relationship. To go back to that ũ bil: that money could buy you all the prostitutes in the world. But do you really think that would make you happy? And would that money make you happy if you had no community, no friends to share it with? I think not.

so i will say this:

Life is life, dog, cat, bird it doesn't matter what kind of life it is as long as it is alive.

Life is the most important thing in the world, it is the only thing in this world, and with out it there would be nothing.

You did not earn your life, it was gave to you. now i don't give a damn how much you want to argue that because you can't argue that.
to make up for your life you should help give life to another (this is not talking about only having children)

You can keep your goddamn money, shove it up your ass if you want to, that has very little to do with helping life. your were born into a debt that money can't get you out of. everything you have you owe to those that gave you life (god for some of you, your parents parents parents friends who saved your great great great great grandpa's life) i don't see any other way to repay this debt with out saving a life(s). it can cost up to Ũ.00 to do this. instead of giving the homeless guy money for food, take his ass to a shelter where our tax money is being spent to feed these people.

i agree with the "it's my hard earned money and i will spend it how i want". but read the paragraph above this, there are many ways to help someone (dustman needs some help and he isn't homeless or starving) just a cig and a conversation can go a long way, sure it wont keep them from dyeing but before they die you will be remembered and that is something worth more to me than any amount of money.

as far as animals go, well, i wouldn't swerve and hit a bunch of humans to miss some dogs or cats but that doesn't mean thier life is less important than a humans. read fatbitch's post about his dog. (i know how you feel fatbitch)

jim, i think you said you spend time with some sort of dog shelter? i don't see what is wrong with this, he doesn't have to spend his money, he like dogs, he is saving a life.

dustman, your just a jackass. "if i can't kill them then i don't want to help them" what kind of dumb shit is that? how about you when/if you get cancer the doctors (you know, the ones that help millions of people) decide not to help you because it's your fault you got cancer. sure thats not a concrete example because you pay for that help but just think about the concept before you say stupid shit like what you told michael about letting that girl die.

life needs life. help it along, not just for you, not just for society, but for life itself.

it is truly a valiant idea to dedicate our priorities to eliminate suffering, but this is not Star Trek.

And as a side note: Althornin, you need to relax. Stop taking punk music so seriously. Your ramblings are only the tip of you figuring things out. Sit back, look at what you are saying. I'm not disagreeing with you, but I have a good feeling you are seeing things from one side and one side only. The points you make are correct, granted, but they are easy points.
Take a word of advice from a person that was once in your state of mind...complaining and finger pointing means little. They only go to prove you are self-centered, self-righteous, and unsure of yourself. Try to channel that energy and outlook to say how to improve something and the steps needed to make it happen. Think realistically, not with a self-centered heart. Stop focusing on what humanity(society) has done to you and start exploring the psychology behind the sociology. A further understanding of the human instinct will help you, and all of us (yes, including myself), to have compassion for our nature. Having compassion for humanity is what it is all about.

quote:

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Originally posted by iso9k:
I find it ironic that somebody who has human priority issues has a computer. Those cost a lot of money and become obsolete quickly.

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My last computer cost me โ when I bought it used, 5 years old, and it lasted me 7 more years, and is still fully functional. My current computer cost... well, ok, a bit more than that. But I'm not saying that we should give all of our money away, just part of it. A family in some countries could live a life of luxury on a fraction of the income of the average worker here in the US.

What I am saying, however, is that just because you have a lot of money does not mean hat you need to spend it all on luxuries. Why not spend enough to live a comfrtable life, then save some more and give away the rest? I'm not saying that you have to give it all away; the idea of tithing 10\% of your income is reasonable, especially considering that you pay twice that or more to taxes.

Here's an interesting fact for you: with the election coming up, all of you are no doubt aware of the issue of the national debt. What you probably don't know is that the private debt in this country exceeds the national debt. That is to say, the people in the US owe more money and have borrowed more money than the government itself.

quote:

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Jim said:
I take care of my friends who have EARNED my help and support, I go out of my way to help the deserving.

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I feel sorry for your “friends,” if you actually have any at all. Do you starve your dogs if they do not fetch the paper?

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Oh boy, here comes Dustman:
You talk of the potential to bankrupt a normal, middle class family. That's fine. I have no problem with middle class families being bankrupted...No-one ever said it would be easy to survive. No-one ever promised life would be fair. One thing is certain in life and that is you must get sufficient resources to live, or you don't. People that can't, well, die.

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That’s why you’re a piece of shit.

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Dustman again:
...there is no cosmic force which compells other people to fix it for free: Firepersons put out fires if their clients can pay them for it,

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Clients? Actually, that is not how it works, at least in my country. Members of society – a collective of people living together for mutual gain and benefit – are required to pay a fee, known as taxes, to retain a spot as a member of said society. These taxes are used to subsidize and sustain such things as the police, fire departments, and public hospitals. You'll notice that those who cannot afford to pay such a fee are exempt, which really isn’t a bad idea. It sort of begins to preface the rationale behind my argument. To paraphrase Michael, if you don’t like it, get the fuck out.

You know, what the world desperately needs is the secret alliance of a conscious elite - those who allow personal sacrifice in the face of any obstinate lout who laughs in the face of misery and harbors no compassion for his fellow man. Be part of the elite...always be the bigger person. No one will realize it but you (and perhaps God), but that is all that matters, and such is the standard of true honor.

Follow this path, and I guarantee you will feel better about yourself, notice yourself smiling more, and know that deep down, you are responsible for helping the world along.

Seems to me that Dustman, and perhaps Jim as well, must have had a pretty loveless and rocky childhood.

And some more statistics:
(from < affluenza.com >)

Per capita consumption in the United States has increased 45 percent in the past twenty years.

During the same period, quality of life as measured by the index of social health has decreased by roughly the same percentage.

The average working woman plays with her children forty minutes a week--and shops six hours.

Ninety-three percent of teenage girls list shopping as their favorites pastime.

This message has been edited by Michael on November 03, 2000 at 01:49 PM

to sum up: jims right - your ass is your responsibility until youve done something to earn outside help.

Yes, life would be empty without other challenges, and you are free to challenge yourself in other ways, any entertain yourelf how you see fit.

But none of these other challenges are actually essential.

The challenge of having enough money to survive is essential to succeed to survive. Once you've done that then think about amusing yourself in myriad ways.

Penguin, Ok, what if the doctors decide not to help me, even if I could pay. That's their prerogative and their choice to make. If I could pay, though, then I'm sure i'd find someone willing to take my money for the service.

Yeah, ok, I'm a jackass. Happy now I've said it? You don't like what I think so I'm a jackass.

quote:

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Life needs life. help it along, not just for you, not just for society, but for life itself.

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Error: (Statement compile error in line 1)

quote:

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
But none of these other challenges are actually essential.

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Depends on what you mean by essential. I suppose being happy isn't exactly essential but I would still argue that a life that is not enjoyable and fulfilling is not worth living. Fulfillment does not come solely from material wealth and therefore money is not the be-all and end-all of life. In fact, it is quite possible that the more money you earn, the less happy you will be, as per the statistics in my previous post.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Clients? Actually, that is not how it works, at least in my country.

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Oh boy, I meant that that is how it should work.

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Members of society – a collective of people living together for mutual gain and benefit – are required to pay a fee, known as taxes, to retain a spot as a member of said society. These taxes are used to subsidize and sustain such things as the police, fire departments, and public hospitals. You'll notice that those who cannot afford to pay such a fee are exempt, which really isn’t a bad idea.

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It certainly is a bad idea.
Sure, everyone gets their house fires extinguished, everyone has their appendix(what is the plural of appendix) removed.

Fine. The lint in the navel of society can continue to not justify themselves econimically for another few months before carking it.
Well, that sure sounds like a good idea to me.

quote:

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You know, what the world desperately needs is the secret alliance of a conscious elite - those who allow personal sacrifice in the face of any obstinate lout who laughs in the face of misery and harbors no compassion for his fellow man. Be part of the elite...always be the bigger person. No one will realize it but you (and perhaps God), but that is all that matters, and such is the standard of true honor.

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said uncle Bulgaria...
And then the socialist wombles went back inside for tea.

quote:

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Follow this path, and I guarantee you will feel better about yourself, notice yourself smiling more, and know that deep down, you are responsible for helping the world along.

Seems to me that Dustman, and perhaps Jim as well, must have had a pretty loveless and rocky childhood.

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Mum gave me resources, and that's why I still exist : that is my childhood.

Never mind, know though that the dynamics of how the world works do not revolve around love. They revolve around animals doing what they must to survive.

This message has been edited by DuSTman on November 03, 2000 at 02:16 PM

You might be wrong.

I might be wrong.

In the end, the only way to see who was right or wrong is to tally up everything that happened because of a specific action and see which way is more in the plus <or less in the negative>.

Thus, only an all knowing being can judge. Because i do not believe that includes anyone posting here, do not judge me, fucknuggets. Ok?

My money=mine. I will give what i want to who i want when i want them to have it.

And that doesnt include helping out people i dont know, cause i wont fucking do that.
I'll help friends. And people i care about.

screw you who says i should care about everyone. why? cause your moral code says so? fuck it!

In the end, what if you helped a "harmless waif" and i didnt, and they died?
So you helped them and they lived..and you thought you did good.

But their son grows up and kills 10000000 people in a terrorist bombing.

You indirectly caused evil.
I know you couldnt know that. my only point is...you CAN NOT KNOW what is good and what is bad.

think on it.

------------------
Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

Once that first house goes up in flames, it is in the interest of everyone in the community that the fire be stopped. Because when that house is done burning, yours could be next. And that is why people in a community help each other: because misfortune hits all of us sooner or later, and it's only with help from others that we can overcome that misfortune.

So sure, go ahead and say that you don't care about the fate of those around you. But the house next to yours is on fire, and now the flames are licking at your roof...

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
Never mind, know though that the dynamics of how the world works do not revolve around love. They revolve around animals doing what they must to survive.

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What exactly is love? Let me be very general and say any connection or attraction between two things. A very general statement indeed. The moon loves the earth. Electrons love protons. I am stretching the meaning of the word, but you can surely understand what I mean. The force which brought the world into being is a force which draws things together. The force which created life is in direct opposition to the forces of entropy. Human beings exist in direct contradiction of the laws of thermodynamics. (And if that's not a thought to cheer you up every morning, I don't know what is...)

If they don't yield to logic, try poetry...

This message has been edited by Michael on November 03, 2000 at 02:39 PM

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Originally posted by Althornin:
Thus, only an all knowing being can judge. Because i do not believe that includes anyone posting here, do not judge me, fucknuggets. Ok?

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You're right, none of us is omniscient, so none of us can know the results of our actions. So trying to judge what is the "right" thing to do can be risky, even though making an effort to help is better than making no effort whatsoever.

Therefore, at your suggestion I will make a modification to these moral statements:

Pray about it first, and then go ahead and help if God tells you to do so.

There's no way you can go wrong there.

Unless you aren't really praying. Or you aren't really asking. Or you aren't really listening for an answer. Or unless you get an answer, then decide that following it would take too much effort.

This message has been edited by Michael on November 03, 2000 at 02:51 PM

He will then call one of us a fucknugget. Im taking bets on this one...

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You make me sick
Holy Shit!!
I know Kung Fu
Ju Jitsu, I'm gonna learn Ju Jitsu

< http://hometown.aol.com/adumar13/myhomepage/index.html >

"looks like the best part of you ran down your mommy's leg and left a brown stain on the mattress - I think you've been cheated!"

But I think by remaining in society, the people who are against helping others are basically hypocrites. Dustman, Jim, Sithiee, et al...by staying in society, and paying taxes, you are in essence helping out those who have no relation/debt to you. Whether you like it or not, you are technically doing all of the things you have so vehementely wrote in opposition to.

Portions of your paycheck goes to social security, welfare, defense of the people, prison budgets, and a variety of other areas. If you are against this notion, why are you still here, participating in such a society?

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
But I think by remaining in society, the people who are against helping others are basically hypocrites. Dustman, Jim, Sithiee, et al...by staying in society, and paying taxes, you are in essence helping out those who have no relation/debt to you. Whether you like it or not, you are technically doing all of the things you have so vehementely wrote in opposition to.

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Actually under the new neo-liberalism these guys are behaving exactly as they are supposed to. Individuals are no longer supposed to care about anyone else but themselves. They are not supposed to pay taxes because these people (the homeless and impoversihed) are in their current state due to their own fault. You guys MUST be republicans!

As for shelters helping people, ummm.....most shelters are temporary, they don't help anyone! Yes they may have them not freeze one night but as to getting them back to being productive members of society they don't do shit. Instead of really helping these people shelters just cram 200 or 300 of them into a warehouse of the destitute. When you are flat broke with no home all you have left is your pride.

Please let's not bring "god" into this discussion. My beliefs are not formed on any sort of religious ground, but on a humantiarian ground. I see people suffering and I want to do something. You guys don't have to do shit...in fact I would prefer it if you stayed away since you wouldn't be a positive influence anyway. Just sit in your castles, voting republican and hording your time, energy and money. Then we all will be happy.

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"Our hopes are high. Our faith in the people is great. Our courage is strong and our dreams for this beautiful country will never die" -Pierre Elliot Trudeau

ill go ahead and say it. dont you fucking dare start pulling god into this. religion shouldnt have anything to do with this. im athiest, and i dont believe in any higher being or god or whatnot, and so that shouldnt have an effect on it anyway. you have to treat all people equally. you cant say "well that person has a shitty life, so ill help them, but when my friend wants that same money, i wont give it to him cause he hasnt been screwed by life." no. you have to have a standard. "well, that person has a shitty life, ill give them a chance to earn some money, and ill give my friend a chance to earn some too." god telling you who to give your money to? thats bs. its your choice, and it should remain your choice.

no one should tell you what to do but you.

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
dont you fucking dare start pulling god into this. religion shouldnt have anything to do with this.

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That was in response to a statement that by trying to help you still have a chance of just making things worse by accident because you can't know the future. I wasn't trying to bring religion into the discussion, I was just pointing out the fallacy in that argument: namely, that you will be unable to accomplish anything if you are always worried that your actions will have the wrong consequences. It's better to act and to try to help someone than to do nothing, whether or not your actions have the intended effect.

This message has been edited by iso9k on November 03, 2000 at 11:24 PM

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
i'm not saying that I wouldn't accept help from other people. I'm saying if you need help to survive then you shouldn't survive.

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Boy, if only Darwin could see you now.

So I guess, according to Dustman’s brilliant epiphany, we should start pulling the plug on all of those sitting on life support in hospitals. Detach all the respirators and IV drips…throw away every defibrillator…disenfranchise and disembowel every pharmaceutical company in existence today…lay off every fireman/woman…criminalize medical schools…

Despite the vicious and inconsiderate horrors being expelled from the lot of you, many are still missing the point. We’re not talking about panhandling bums and ungrateful winos, but we are talking about the children and adults in desperate need of help. I’m not asking you to sign your paycheck over to a crackhead who’s going to turn around and OD before you can blink an eye. And I am not saying that just because you have extra money, you should give it away. Rather, I am saying that before you go and spend a sizable amount of cash on saving a pet or other animal, you should consider the fact that working-class human beings could use that money as well, for things ranging from breast cancer operations to bone marrow transplants.

So there you have it – the duality of moral decision-making. Do you spend the money on an animal? Or do you spend it on a human?

Obviously, I opt for the later. Many of you need to come to terms with the fact that, for the greater good or not, humans are in charge of this planet. We co-exist in the proverbial society – a communal machine of mutual progress, in which different people do different things for the benefit of the whole. Without each other, we could not survive. Some of us take care of our food supply. Some of us enforce our laws. Some people construct our shelters. Some operate our methods of transit. Animals, in this regard, do not contribute to society.

Nevertheless, every now and then, a few elements of this collective system fall out of line. Like any device, it is smarter to attempt to fix the flaw than let it clank out of operation for an indefinite amount of time. To leave it broken would be inimical to the progress of the collective good.

It just so happens that society relies on supply and demand, and a rather evil and complex motivator/catalyst/reward system known as money. Money is essentially the key to entrance in the societal system I alluded to in the last paragraph. The less you have, the less “rewards” you get. But we must come to terms with the fact that not everyone has adequate access to money. Selfish tyrants like Jim (who seems to be overly proud of his sizable paycheck) want it all for themselves, oblivious to the fact that certain medical procedures and ailments carry the potential to bankrupt a working, middle class family. Moreover, just think about how such problems can affect those who live in poverty. When a person is homeless, they breed an ostensibly endless perpetuity of similar hardship. It is much like the Indian caste system, and American slavery: you are born into a prison you cannot escape, merely due to the fate of your ancestors. Additionally, it is not easy for a person to jump right out of poverty. A person with no home, shower, mailing address, clean clothes, and razor can’t just fill out a McDonald’s application and start working. My God, Jim, I hope you were joking about handing out applications to those who are less fortunate than you. That is exactly the type of abhorrent yuppie fascism that makes me pray for the existence of karma. Because assholes like you and Dustman undoubtedly have some coming your way.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Selfish tyrants like Jim (who seems to be overly proud of his sizable paycheck) want it all for themselves, oblivious to the fact that certain medical procedures and ailments carry the potential to bankrupt a working, middle class family.

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I'm very proud of my accomplishments in life. And yes, I want every mother fucking cent that EARNED all for myself. Am I cheap? No. Stingy? No!

I tip very well for very well service, I take care of my friends who have EARNED my help and support, I go out of my way to help the deserving.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Additionally, it is not easy for a person to jump right out of poverty. A person with no home, shower, mailing address, clean clothes, and razor can’t just fill out a McDonald’s application and start working. My God, Jim, I hope you were joking about handing out applications to those who are less fortunate than you.

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Nope, wasn't kidding at ALL! And you are right, that can't be easy when you are in that situation. But it is possible. The time they spend on the corner begging for my pity, they could be out trying to make a difference for themselves.

I'm all for helping people who CAN'T help themselves.
i.e. Children

Actually that's about it. I really don't think we should try and salvage mentally retarded people, or extremely old and senile people. Sad, I know. But keeping someone alive that barely even knows or can comprehend they exist does not make sense to me. I'm all for Dr. Kavorkian, or however the hell you spell his name.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

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Boy, if only Darwin could see you now.

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Exactly!

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So I guess, according to Dustman’s brilliant epiphany, we should start pulling the plug on all of those sitting on life support in hospitals. Detach all the respirators and IV drips...throw away every defibrillator...disenfranchise and disembowel every pharmaceutical company in existence today...lay off every fireman/woman...criminalize medical schools...

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If those people cannot pay for the rescources they use while unconscious then by all means pull the plug.
I'm talking about only giving aid, doing work, exchanging items, in exchange for something else. I'm not saying that if someone has a problem there should be no solution, but there is no cosmic force which compells other people to fix it for free : Firepersons put out fires if their clients can pay them for it, Tuition fees in medical schools, and payment for medical treatment, etc.

The only challenge of our existence is that we must make enough money to survive, that may be harder for others due to them encountering mis-fortunes, so be it.

quote:

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Despite the vicious and inconsiderate horrors being expelled from the lot of you, many are still missing the point. We’re not talking about panhandling bums and ungrateful winos, but we are talking about the children and adults in desperate need of help. I’m not asking you to sign your paycheck over to a crackhead who’s going to turn around and OD before you can blink an eye. And I am not saying that just because you have extra money, you should give it away. Rather, I am saying that before you go and spend a sizable amount of cash on saving a pet or other animal, you should consider the fact that working-class human beings could use that money as well, for things ranging from breast cancer operations to bone marrow transplants.

So there you have it - the duality of moral decision-making. Do you spend the money on an animal? Or do you spend it on a human?

Obviously, I opt for the later. Many of you need to come to terms with the fact that, for the greater good or not, humans are in charge of this planet. We co-exist in the proverbial society - a communal machine of mutual progress, in which different people do different things for the benefit of the whole. Without each other, we could not survive. Some of us take care of our food supply. Some of us enforce our laws. Some people construct our shelters. Some operate our methods of transit. Animals, in this regard, do not contribute to society.

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Where in the manual for the world does it say what society is for?
When was society designed, and by who?

I mean, no. Society is something that is there, because it is. It's creation was not one of a grand plan, but an inevitible product of human's social instincts.

A crow is born. What does it have to do? Get enough food to survive and avoid predators.

Capitalist society merely lets us do the same thing in a variety of different ways, rather than just everybody hunting..

Yes, some people farm now, some people mend leaky pipes and some people sew fabric to make tents, but they all do it for subsistence - to get what they need to survive.

You can't get the money, you can't get the resources to survive, so you don't survive. It's as simple as that.

quote:

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It just so happens that society relies on supply and demand, and a rather evil and complex motivator/catalyst/reward system known as money. Money is essentially the key to entrance in the societal system I alluded to in the last paragraph. The less you have, the less rewards you get. But we must come to terms with the fact that not everyone has adequate access to money. Selfish tyrants like Jim (who seems to be overly proud of his sizable paycheck) want it all for themselves, oblivious to the fact that certain medical procedures and ailments carry the potential to bankrupt a working, middle class family. Moreover, just think about how such problems can affect those who live in poverty. When a person is homeless, they breed an ostensibly endless perpetuity of similar hardship. It is much like the Indian caste system, and American slavery: you are born into a prison you cannot escape, merely due to the fate of your ancestors. Additionally, it is not easy for a person to jump right out of poverty. A person with no home, shower, mailing address, clean clothes, and razor can’t just fill out a McDonald’s application and start working. My God, Jim, I hope you were joking about handing out applications to those who are less fortunate than you. That is exactly the type of abhorrent yuppie fascism that makes me pray for the existence of karma. Because assholes like you and Dustman undoubtedly have some coming your way.

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It is precisely because there will be an uneven distribution of money that it's such a good system, do you not see that?

It takes no skill to be a human, it takes no skill, it has no monetary value of it's own to other humans, so why should existence be all that is required for continual existence?

You talk of the potential to bankrupt a normal, middle class family. That's fine. I have no problem with middle class families being bankrupted.

No-one ever said it would be easy to survive. No-one ever promised life would be fair. One thing is certain in life and that is you must get sufficient resources to live, or you don't. People that can't, well, die.

Money represents worth. It represents function of items, an amount of work, etc.
It is not evil, it is not good, it is an abstraction of the natural world.
Charity is an abuse of the concept. Simple.

Karma? Grow up.

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Originally posted by jim:
I take care of my friends who have EARNED my help and support, I go out of my way to help the deserving.

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Now you're going from bad to worse. I don't take care of my friends who have earned my support, I just take care of my friends. Period. No qualifications. Friendship isn't based on mutual benefit or only giving as much help as you get. The whole point of having a friend is that you don't keep track of how much you have done to help them or how much they have done to help you.

So you don't want to be a member of this society? You don't want to accept that responsibility? Fine. Go out and live in the middle of the desert somewhere. There's no law against being alone. But if you live anywhere where you make social contact with other human beings, you are a part of society.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
A person with no home, shower, mailing address, clean clothes, and razor can’t just fill out a McDonald’s application and start working.

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Really? Because I was under the impression that thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants do just that every year. Maybe they don’t go work at McDonalds, but if it is so fucking impossible for a homeless, unshaven, phone-less, dirty person to find work in this country then how the fuck are immigrants doing it with the added disadvantage of being here illegally? Maybe because they are willing to do jobs that suck and pay minimum wage. Maybe because they actually try to make money?

If people actually TRY to help themselves, then chances are they can succeed in this country. If they are looking for a handout then fuck them.

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Of course, that’s just my opinion; I could be wrong. -Dennis Miller

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:

Portions of your paycheck goes to social security, welfare, defense of the people, prison budgets, and a variety of other areas. If you are against this notion, why are you still here, participating in such a society?

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From a strategic standpoint it would be unwise for me to leave this cosy little first world country. Yes, I'm sure many, many people have irks, little things that they don't like about their country but they do not leava..

While I may not like certain things about this country, the only place i could be out of this type of society would be the arctic, and the middle of the desert, neither of which places are likely to be able to support me.

I'm willing to bet there's things in society you do not like.. Why do you not leave?

The girl whose life I saved was a casual friend of mine. She had broken up with a man who treated her like shit. She wanted to die because all she saw in life was him. On the two occasions I have seen her afterwards, she has thanked me with all her heart, she has a new job, he life is going forwards. So to Dustman, screw j00.

** incubus has left this sick discussion **

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

This message has been edited by incubus on November 04, 2000 at 11:05 AM

Oddly, though, it was worded in such a way that it sounded like you were disagreeing.

Not a lot of point me replying to incubus' post, is there.

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Originally posted by Blain:
I was under the impression that thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants do just that every year. Maybe they don’t go work at McDonalds, but if it is so fucking impossible for a homeless, unshaven, phone-less, dirty person to find work in this country then how the fuck are immigrants doing it with the added disadvantage of being here illegally? Maybe because they are willing to do jobs that suck and pay minimum wage. Maybe because they actually try to make money?

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NO, it is because these immigrants are forced to work illegal jobs run by labor barons like Kathy Lee Gifford. You cannot get a legal job in this country without a social security number and/or the proper certifications. Since these immigrants do not have the proper requirements, they are forced to work the underground circuit.

Basically, they either work in unregulated, unknown-to-the-government sweatshops or slave away as manual laborers. They toil through 16 hour work days for 50 cents an hour, living in shanty town slums until the INS finds them and ships them back to Tijuana. There is no OSHA to help their occupational safety. There is no worker’s compensation. There is no mandatory break time.

And sure Dustman, there are certain things I don't like about my country. But I, unlike you, do not participate in any of the things I dislike (i,e – I don’t like war, so I do not serve in the armed forces). Hence why you, unlike me, are acting like a bona fide hypocrite. You're here on this thread, ranting about how you never give alms to anyone. But on the other hand, a sizable chunk of every paycheck you earn goes to people you've never even met. And you're not exempt from this either, Sithiee. One day, you’ll be working to. I’ll bet on that.

In my fervour, though, I feel i may have mis-represented myself somewhat, let me clarify my position. I believe in nothing solidly, I do neither know or care if there's a god or not (the existence of such a being means nothing), and I do not take the world as a base for logic forgranted.

My experiences are only that, my experiences, and do not mean anything as far as anyone elses experience goes.

Also, therefore, I see no solid base of logic: no solid morality continuum to the world that I percieve we share. Your sense of right and wrong is subjective to you, and is only your opinion to the same depth as your opinion on which is the superior cola (pepsi or coca-cola) is.

Therefore, as far as I'm concerned, there is no "should". There is no right and no wrong that I care about.

I'm not trying to say "don't help other people" all I mean to say is that don't expect me to. Nothing logically confers any responsibility onto me for what I percieve as your problems, I am not responsible for your poor fortune and I am not responsible for making sure you're fed properly.

Also those problems are subjective, for example there may well be some people that just choose to live on the streets. As far as they're concerned their homelessness is a problem, and we may pity them, but to them it isn't necessarily a problem.

In the case of incubus "helping" that girl, what I found offensive is that he automatically assumed that her decision to do that was her "problem", and not simply something in her mind that she considered quite normal - He overrode her decision without considering that she simply might be different from him, and actually want to die. As it turns out, from his other encounters with her, she'd changed her mind about the whole suicide thing, but that doesn't invalidate what was her decision then.

As a postnote "It is wrong to force one's moral code on another" - Somewhat contradictory rhetoric, don't you think?

This message has been edited by DuSTman on November 04, 2000 at 04:09 PM

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Originally posted by DuSTman:
I'm willing to bet there's things in society you do not like.. Why do you not leave?

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OK, the reason that I don't leave this country and go live in the desert feeding myself on honey and locusts is quite simple: my friends are here, my family is here, my community is here, and I do not think that I could survive alone. My reasons for staying or leaving the country have nothing to do with how comfortable life is in this our obscenely decadent society; I will stay in this country because I am a part of it. Yes, there are things that I do not approve of, but I still stay because I hope that eventually they will change. And they can indeed change, if enough people care about more than just staying within their comfort zone and are willing to be active members of society and to change things for the better.

and no shit im gonna be paying taxes. thats what i used as evidence for my helping people out. i would have a job right now, but i dont have the resources right now (i.e. no permanent transportation), BUT i dont assume that everyone should start giving me money because i cant provide it for myself. i expect my parents to keep giving me my allowance (which i do earn) and i expect them to feed me and such, but they have to do that by law.

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
its not only wrong, its impossible to force morals or ethics. if you think about it, when you force your morals or ethics on someone, say through threat of death, then you havent actually accomplished anything.

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Exactly. You can't change a person's morals exectpt through persuading them to see your point of view. Which means, of course, that no one here is trying to "force" their morals on anyone else. And you will notice that, in my post at least, I never once said anything to the effect of "if you aren't willing to help others you're evil"; rather, I have been trying to explain why it is that human beings have a responsibility to each other.

Maybe it's not a good idea in the physical world, but here on det.net, we have the luxury of the Internet's anonymity and the casual frankness of these open boards. Go ahead a point a finger. Spill your guts and preach your minds. This may just be the only outlet in which you'll get to do so.

If a person is threatened by your aggressive, domineering views, then that's just too bad. Either your own value system is rooted in a strong foundation, or it is not (in which case it deserves to be pummeled).

The point: if you truly believe in something, share it with the rest. Try to convince people to coincide with your beliefs. They don't have to agree with you. They can just tell you to fuck off. Plus, only by introducing the most concentrated, potent, and extreme views can we ever hope to garner a true sample of universal opinion and fully understand the myriad of beliefs and values that exist between us.

edit: i should have added, dont be too zealous about your moral code, or you may just come off as an asshole and no one will care about what you have to say....

This message has been edited by Sithiee on November 05, 2000 at 09:18 PM

But you will note, michael, that it is not a fallacy to say that only someone perfect can judge your actions.
You say it is, cause you'd never get anything done if you worried about that.
and i dont disagree.
what i was trying to do is to get you to admit to the fact that YOU personally cannot know what is truly right and wrong.

Ergo, you should not be telling people what they do is what makes the world a shitty place. Because you could be wrong, it coud be the other way around.

All we as humans can do is act on what information we have.

And whoever isoblah blah is, you're right.
I think God is a crock of shit. I dont believe in some higher being, its not logical. And i think that religeon, while it was usefull 500 years ago, is no longer usefull, in fact it is now the basis for much contention and bloodshed. If you disagree, read the news. People fight over their religeon all the time. What a waste. If they actually took the energy they spend fighting other religeons and used it for something worthwhile, i might have at least one iota of respect for them. But i do not.
however, the issue here isnt god, or religeon.

the issue is morality.
And it is ludicrous to claim that your morality is right, and good, without knowing the big picture. and i dont believe you could know that. <and i dont think, that if there was a god, he would tell you what to do, because that goes against the whole "humanity has free choice in what they do" thing most religeons like...>

I know i was frothing at the mouth earlier, and all i can say is, as someone who does not believe in god, i get judged all the time by poeple who have no logical basis for doing so. and i for one a damn sick and tired of it. If people would stop judging each other, this world would be a better place. A lot less animosity. So do the world a favor and cease trying to staple your moral code to other peoples backs.

Thanks,
Alth

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Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

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Michael Wrote:
"What exactly is love? Let me be very general and say any connection or attraction between two things. A very general statement indeed. The moon loves the earth. Electrons love protons. I am stretching the meaning of the word, but you can surely understand what I mean. The force which brought the world into being is a force which draws things together. The force which created life is in direct opposition to the forces of entropy. Human beings exist in direct contradiction of the laws of thermodynamics. (And if that's not a thought to cheer you up every morning, I don't know what is...)"

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you just made my day man. nice :-)

This message has been edited by CatKnight on November 06, 2000 at 08:56 AM

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Originally posted by Althornin:
what i was trying to do is to get you to admit to the fact that YOU personally cannot know what is truly right and wrong.

Ergo, you should not be telling people what they do is what makes the world a shitty place. Because you could be wrong, it coud be the other way around.

All we as humans can do is act on what information we have.

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No shit I could be wrong. But through that logic, I just may be right.

All you prove with that last post, Althornin, is that you carry the ability to quibble the semantics of the limits to human knowledge. But this isn’t a philosophical discussion about cognitive boundaries. This is a moralistic debate about contemporary economic priorities and the dubious responsibility of helping one’s fellow man.

As such, this thread is a collective of opinions – subjective ramblings about the different ways in which each of us view the subject. It is pointless, cumbersome and futile to begin every sentence with, “In my opinion…”, and it is generally accepted that the thoughts you divulge on these threads constitute your personal, particular beliefs.

So if I say, “people like you make the world a shitty place,” then that is a fabrication of what I believe. That is my opinion. I am sharing that with whoever is willing to read it. You don’t have to agree. No one has to agree. I am simply saying, in my eyes, said people make this world a shitty place.

To disallow such remarks simply because of an inescapable degree of possible invalidity (there are an infinite number of things us humans cannot possibly conceive), is to bar our freedom to construct open, intelligent, and uncensored discussion.

How can we ever prevail, reaching the absolute truth to our universe, if we doom ourselves to boundaries, accepting the fact that we cannot possibly accomplish what we seek to discover before we even begin?

edit: messed the quote up

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on November 06, 2000 at 10:59 AM

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Originally posted by Michael:
The force which brought the world into being is a force which draws things together. The force which created life is in direct opposition to the forces of entropy. Human beings exist in direct contradiction of the laws of thermodynamics. (And if that's not a thought to cheer you up every morning, I don't know what is...)

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Before I let you get too far with that line of reasoning, almost all biological systems follow the exact rules of thermodynamics. Everything that moves or has any reactions, does so to get to a chemically lower energy state. The only confusing oddball in the deal is plants. They take in sunlight, which dislodges electrons from a matrix (oddly resembling a hemoglobin molecule), and let that electron return to the state it's in by releasing energy into ATP. The ATP is broken down to a lower energy state by combining water and CO2 into sugar basics.

Besides that the forces bringing us together are based on the laziness of chemicals, thermodynamics doesn't really apply all that well to earth to begin with. The closed system boundry (for all intents and purposes) includes the sun. The sun is running fusion reactions to release energy and get itself to a lower state. So, your thinly veiled reference to the divinity of love and our existance, is merely an extension of the common physics we all know and love.

In response to the morality issues of this thread... I'm too scared to put in my 2 cents... it'll just piss you all off.

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Originally posted by askheaves:
In response to the morality issues of this thread... I'm too scared to put in my 2 cents... it'll just piss you all off.

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Please, dude. Don't ever let that hold you back.

Can't promise I'll like it...but I will appreciate the fact you shared it.

i help out my friends and those i care about partially because i care, partially because they're a lot more pleasant to be around if they're happy, and partially because i KNOW they will return the favor if i need it. selfishness is a survival skill. unless you're mother theresa, yer not gonna get very damn far without any.

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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin

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Originally posted by askheaves:
Before I let you get too far with that line of reasoning, almost all biological systems follow the exact rules of thermodynamics. Everything that moves or has any reactions, does so to get to a chemically lower energy state.

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Thermodynamics states that things tend towards the most chaotic, low-energy state; that structured, ordered systems will eventually break down. And in that sense, life is indeed a violation of thermodynamics because living creature are by far the most complex, structured, things in existence.

But that's really beside the point that I was trying to make, namely that an attitude that separates people and distances yourself from them is inherently destructive, whereas an attitude that brings people together and shares your misfortune will have a constructive outcome.

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
well said, kuru. especially when you consider that donating money to the needy makes some people feel good abotu themselves. are they doing it because the people need it, or because they want to feel better about themselves?

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Just because something makes you feel better about yourself doesn't change whether that action was bad or good. Sure, your reasons may not be as pure and altruistic, but if the effect is the same, it doesn't make a difference to anyone else. And yes, there does indeed seem to be a genetic tendency to want to help other people, but just because altruism has secondary motives doesn't cheapen it. If you can make someone else feel better and at the same time improve your own mood, there's nothing wrong with that.

one way or another, its gonna have an opposite effect. you give money to the needy, you miss out on getting something you need. say you get cancer. you just donated half your money cuase you didnt need it THEN. now your in the hole 14k for treatment and surgery.

now you spend all the money on yourself, making you feel and look good. you hav nice things, you are happy. but then you think of all those needy people and you feel empty.

my suggestion? move to a desert island and live the Giligan life. or soemthing.

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Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

it's a 'good thing for a selfish reason' selfishness is not always bad. selfishness often motivates us to do good things for others, just because we like the feeling we get inside when we do it.

so everybody, lets have some more random acts of wanton kindness out there.

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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
are they doing it because the people need it, or because they want to feel better about themselves?

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thats a tricky, curly question

when i gave blood, i did it because it made me feel good to know that i was helping others, so its a combination of both

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"i was born without any nads, so i guess like, my kids wont have nads either" - Beavis

Metal/Electronic/Ambient etc..
< http://www.mp3.com/fatbitch >

For some reason the "acts of kindness" slogan reminds me of the "my kid beat up your honor student" sticker. Just thought I'd share that.

And as for recent posts talking about altruism: Get this- it doesnt exist.

Altruism is doing something that is good <lets assume we know what good is > for no personal gain.

Now if doing something good for someone doesnt make you feel good about yourself, you are more fucked up than i can imagine.

Therefor, if it makes you feel good, it isnt altruism.

Heinlein once said: "If you think you are doing something altruistic, dig deeper and find your real motives. If you still want to do it, wallow in it"

i cant think of a better way to put it.

On opinions, well, i think that the people here who want to help other people because "they are human" should go live in a communist country because that is exactly the sort of blind idealism that allowed communism to ever be taken seriously- they'd fit right in!

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Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

I never thought you were such a cynical person Althornin. Regardless, you're wrong.
I think altruism definitely exists...you just have to know where to look.

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The true definition of altruism:
Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

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Note that there is no "it can't make you feel good" prerequisite in that complete definition.

Just because an act has a thread of personal gain in it does not mean that all altruistic notions are null and void...the two are NOT mutually exclusive!

Additionally, when I do something nice, on behalf of another person, I do it in order to help them. My primary goal rests on assisting that person. The result is twofold, in that the person's life is hopefully bettered in some way, and I am happy with my actions. Note that my feelings of benevolence appear after I complete said altruistic act. So my motives were clearly to help someone else...feeling good was just a byproduct.

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For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as an Assistant Fire Team Leader with Company E, Third Reconnaissance Battalion, Third Marine Division, in connection with combat operations against an armed enemy in the Republic of Vietnam. While conducting a patrol during the early morning hours of 24 August 1969, Lance Corporal Anderson's reconnaissance team came under a heavy volume of automatic weapons and machine-gun fire from a numerically superior and well-concealed enemy force. Although painfully wounded in both legs and knocked to the ground during the initial moments of the fierce fire fight, Lance Corporal Anderson assumed a prone position and continued to deliver intense suppressive fire in an attempt to repulse the attackers. Moments later he was wounded a second time by an enemy soldier who had approached to within eight feet of the team's position. Undaunted, he continued to pour a relentless stream of fire at the assaulting unit, even while a companion was treating his legs wounds. Observing an enemy grenade land between himself and the other Marine, Lance Corporal Anderson immediately rolled over and covered the lethal weapon with his body, absorbing the full effects of the detonation. By his indomitable courage, inspiring initiative, and selfless devotion to duty, Lance Corporal Anderson was instrumental in saving several Marines from serious injury or possible death. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and of the United States Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life in the service of his country.

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Can someone tell exactly what this man had to gain by blowing himself up??

So please, Althornin, go to < http://www.usmc.mil/moh.nsf/ > and learn a little bit about altruism.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin

You, whiskey, say that you gain happiness after you do your good deed. no kidding. that doesnt mean that you didnt do the good deed knowing you were gonna feel good about it, or in fact because you were gonna feel good about it.

And the marine who died:
Obviously, he was happier knowing he saved the lives <or would save the lives> of his buddies than saving his own. If that isnt selfish, what is?

Its like suicide, the most selfish fucking thing you can do.

And hey: i am cynical. But i am capable of examining things in a logical manner. I just want someone to show me one act that does not meet the certain requirements.

i believe everything we do is controlled by certain needs:
Self presevation
Species preservation
Comfort <or lack of pain>

Any action can be atributted to these things. and none of these things are altruistic, IMO.

Please, respond, tell me i'm wrong. I want to be proven wrong. but its gonna take PROOF. dont quote me some huge ass story about a marine thats so easy to decode.

thanks,

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