You what's starting to bug me? People that don't speak a lick of English, yet have permanent residence in this country.

Okay, I realize that this country is a conglomerate mass of several types of immigrants. Heck, my ancestors were immigrants. But it still chaps my hide, especially the citizens that can barely speak English. Furthermore, some of these people have no intention of learning English. They live in ethnic communities, read foriegn newspapers, watch international tv, etc...

quote:

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The Naturalization Act of 1906:
"He [the applicant for naturalization] shall, before he is admitted to citizenship, declare on oath in open court...that he will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and bear true faith and allegiance to the same." U.S.C., Tit. 8, § 381.

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But have you seen the naturalization ceremonies? I saw one on TV that looked like a cattle call. Maybe there's more than meets the eye...but from what I saw, it appeared that several of those folks could easily have learned the oath and nothing more. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on the specifics of becoming a US resident or citizen...because it seems to me that the process is pretty incomprehensive.

Here's whats bugging me:

1. Voting. Last time I checked out my ballot and voting pamphlet, it was printed in more than one language. Why? Do we really trust a person with a vote who can't even phone in a fucking pizza order? Can they possibly be completely informed of all the issues pertaining to a candidate? Sure, I know what you're thinking - a lot of English speaking natives don't know dick about the candidates, either. Well, there's no reason to make the problem worse, now is there? And I highly doubt those foriegn TV channels do politics any justice.
   
2. 911. Let's say there's an emergency, and the only person around is my neighbor's grandmother. Every time I talk to this old lady, I am met with grunts and snippets of foriegn garble, and I'm pretty sure she's a citizen. Are we to trust her with our lives?
   
3. Social Security. Why are these people getting our tax dollars when they can't possibly make a sizable contribution to our society? (note I'm referring to the old ones, like grandma mentioned above)
   

1. resident aliens need to work for at least 5 years before being eligible to collect social security.
   
2. pass a standardized test on the basics of the Constitution
   
3. actually be a citizen before having native children (no more of this coming on vacation, shitting out a kid that automatically becomes a US native, and moving in the whole family)
   and of course
   
4. pass a standardized test proving they have a good command of conversational English. (note this does not apply to reading or writing)
   

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Whats the point?

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

The “economic leaches” really piss me off a lot, but then so do the native resident leaches. I work hard for my money and I don’t want to give it to ANYONE who has never really done anything to contribute to society.

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Presented in double vision when drunk.

This message has been edited by mqa on September 28, 2000 at 12:52 AM

dont get me wrong though, i completely agree with you. i go to a school where im a minority, and there are more hispanics than whites, and no one gives a fuck if they learn the language. and then, not only will they not learn the language, but theyll go on about how bolivia or el salvador or some country is so great. IF ITS SO FUCKING GREAT, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE????? personally, i think we should all take patriotism tests to keep our citizenship (taking age into account, 4 y/os shouldnt have to love their country, they dont know enough to do so) because if you dont love this country, then you shouldnt be here. people who immigrate, and then talk about how their country is better really make me mad. its not like we asked em to come here. i feel dumb at my school, because i dont understand half the conversations that go on (well, i know a little spanish, but not enough to understand it at those speeds). but if youre gonna come here, you should learn our language. all this shit about bilingual teaching is just gonna make it easier for people to get away with it. the thing that pisses me off the most, is i have a better chance of getting my order right if i ask my spanish friend to order it in spanish, because most of the mcdonalds/kfc/wendy's workers speak spanish better than english....

anyway, i guess thats something thats been bugging me for a while...

Also, if they don't use their right to vote, they have no grounds on which to complain. Call them on this next time.

As a result, I know bits of half a dozen others, and can't do more than recognize them. I don't mind if immigrants can't speak English, both because I've tried to learn others and because I'm used to not being understood. Plus, their children will be fluent in English regardless of what goes on in the home.

And Sithiee, I lived in cities on the Mexican border for all of my public schooling, elementary through high school. Yes, everyone else spoke Spanish frequently, but just let it slide. I've seen people whine that it's rude to speak in another language around people who don't know that language, and that's just selfish.

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
not only will they not learn the language, but theyll go on about how bolivia or el salvador or some country is so great. IF ITS SO FUCKING GREAT, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU HERE?????

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I can understand the few that love their homeland, but hate the oppressive and tyrannical governments that have taken over. I think a lot of Cubans, Persians, and Cambodians feel this way.

But I know exactly what your saying...and I fucking loathe these people who rant and rave about the glories of their homeland, then criticize and abuse our country. My reply is the same as yours: if you don't like it, get the fuck out.

And still, I can't get over the fact that non-citizens are allowed to vote and collect social security. What bleeding moron came up with this idea? Heck, when I first heard that this was true, I couldn't believe my ears! I thought it was a joke! There is no logical explanation for this. Why should someone be allowed to vote on issues pertaining to the future of our nation when they may just pack up and leave tomorrow? And why should these people be contributing to the fact that when we grow up, there's not going to be any social security money left for us?!

to be in our country:
they should learn our language,
they should shut the hell up about their "other" country
they should stop sending their money back to guakomoley or where ever (it doesn't help our economy if their not spending/investing it in our country)

and if your not a citizen in my country "fuck your vote" (did anyone look that non-citizen vote thing up?) i bet the mexicans could sell there vote (i think there was a ruling on this a month or two ago) sense their not a citizen why should they care?

english is the hardest language to learn in the world. there are two different versions of if, english english and american english, not to mention all the different parts of speech that a single word can be, for example... Fuck you! I should slap the fuck out of you for using that word. (not a good choice of words but i'm in a hurry)

This message has been edited by pengu1nn on September 29, 2000 at 10:52 AM

British English and American English aren't different enough to qualify as anything other than accents, or possibly dialects. A few extra Us, a few different nouns, and some change in slang and you've switched from American to British. That isn't a factor in making it hard to learn, though it is.

patriotism shouldnt be forced, but everyone needs some. im not talking about super in love with our country to the point where your lawn is covered in flags and such. but if you actually dont like our country, i dont think you should be here, because theres gotta be somewhere you like better, or youd like it. i dont care whats going on in their country (yeah, i know how that sounds) but if you cant recognize the fact that our system is working, and we do have a pretty good country, move to canada or england or something, but dont waste our resources.

communism is not bad. dont even start. there are no communist countries, at best, socialist. commmunism is something that has to be embraced by all, and then it would work. if you gave a bunch of true marxist-communists land to start a country, it would work. forced communism doesnt work, because communism works when everyone wants a common good. but that goes back to patriotism, if you love your country, you will put it's peoples' needs before your own, which really is what communism is sposed to be.

keeps, im not whining that its rude to hold conversatiosn in other languages, im perfectly fine with it, i just dont like it when people refuse to learn english. theres also the fact that people take advantage of speaking in these other languages, and theyll make fun of people who dont realize it, and that im sure we can all agree isnt fair. its like me kicking you in the ass and running away before you even know it happened, you dont realize it happened, but everyone else is laughing at your for it. if i went over to your house, and it was your family's custom to speak in morse code, id either shut the fuck up or learn morse code, simple as that.

and last, but not least, the voting. i think we should get together and write an ammendment giving only citizens the right to vote. its like in starship troopers, civilians dont get to vote because they havent proven they love their country, but citizens have some proof of this. the citizenship course is actually fairly rigorous, and a lot of immigrants turned citizen know more about our country than a sad amount of born citizens. plus the fact that they took their time to become citizens shows that they actually care enough about the country to want to be a part of it, which means they would probably vote in a manner that they thought would help the country, and not just because they could. whos more likely to care about the fate of the country, someone living here for 13 years, and has spent the time and effort to become a citizen, or someone whos been living here a month, snuck over the border, and registered to vote because they could?

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
patriotism shouldnt be forced, but everyone needs some.

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No, they don't. I, personally, hate this country right now. I love what it could be, and what it was meant to be, but that's nowhere near what it is. And I was born in America, as were my parents, and their parents, and their parents, so there's nowhere to deport me to. How much patriotism is enough, and who decides it? How much does the government have to dictate what you think before patriotism is right? If they tried doing that, I would be even less patriotic.

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communism is not bad. dont even start.

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Communism is wonderful in theory. It's a gracious, eutopic system if it works. And it can work, for at least a generation or two, in a small community that shares that ideal. But it will never work on the large scale. Beyond a village or two, a couple hundred people, it will always fall apart from selfishness and apathy. And in doing that, bad things happen to the economy. So no, communism isn't bad. It's quite nice, actually, but it's fatally flawed.

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theres also the fact that people take advantage of speaking in these other languages, and theyll make fun of people who dont realize it, and that im sure we can all agree isnt fair.

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No, I won't agree that's not fair. There's nothing stopping you from learning the language yourself, and there's nothing stopping you and a friend from learning a different language to make fun of them. Just don't be so sensitive, and who cares what they say about you?

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its like in starship troopers, civilians dont get to vote because they havent proven they love their country, but citizens have some proof of this.

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That's not quite right - the citizenship course you mention was a required course in the high school carriculum, but had nothing to do with voting. Much better than simply taking a course, the right to vote was given to veterans of civil service (veteran teachers, etc) and of the military. People who have devoted at least a part of their life to serve the country.

You might think that just means you can say what you want when you want, but you have to think also that the people coming into your country also take that to mean the same, so they say what they want when they want in their own language, and in effect, making them all speak one common language (or have a good knowledge of the language) is unconstitutional, as it breaks the 'Freedom of speech' amendment.

Hell, I'm British by origin, and I'd love to be able to live in the USA, it's a beautiful place, and for all the bullshit and annoying people there is always ten-fold that of good things and good people.

Oh, and another thing, all this about your own country, complaining and whining because it's not all it's supposed to be (with regards to the immigrant side, and them saying their country is better and all that lot in this thread), well, you're all saying 'If you dont like it, leave' (or words to that effect) so in all honesty, what does that say to you.

You all sit and moan about your own country, but when someone else does it you get all up in their face and defensive, patriotic yes, hypocritical also.

My £0.75 worth.

Personally, I could never argue forced patriotism. The Nazis already showed us all about that. However, I think everyone should have a moderate understanding of the rules and principles that govern this country. (for example, knowing the spirit of the Constitution, how the government operates, etc.) I, like many others, have a lot of criticism for this country, but as a native citizen, that is my JOB.

Oh, and I don't think communism is good in practice OR theory. It's Marxist (and Engel's) idealism (the notion of dialectical materialism) that sounds appealing. Communism rallies too hard on forcing a stateless and classless society and the equal distribution of wealth through a state-controled, one-party government...something that seems a bit contradictory to me. Plus, it all happens at the expense of personal freedom. Fuck that.

Anyway, i find myself in a bit of a fix. I have to say that personally, i like to think about everything i can, and in this case, i find myself agreeing with both sides here.

I really fucking hate people <immagrants> who come here and connot be bothered to learn the language know by the majority. no its not official, but it is our common language- if you come here, you should learn it.

However, America is about freedom- and that means that if i want to embrace what this country means, i should fully support all the spanish jabbering motherfuckers as it is their right to jabber on in another language no matter how fucking much it annoys me.

SO what to do..."I shall support the immagrants from our lands in the south, while you support the patriots from our lands in the north"

or something to that effect.

So i gotta say, all in all, i'd rather have the foreign language jabbering ignorant immagrants than not have the freedom to be an ignorant not common language speaking bag of shit.

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Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

i am not saying people shouldnt talk in other languages. i am saying people should learn english when they come here. freedom of speech guarantees nothing about language. the whole point was to say that you cant get in trouble for what you say about a political leader or something (that was the point) as a matter of fact, you can get in trouble for things you say, depending on how and where. i.e. if you say the word "fire" to one of your friends while walking down the street, they cant do anything to you. if you yell "fire" in a crowded movie theatre, you will be likely to get arrested and charged, because you are putting people in danger. now, granted saying things about someone in another language isnt going to hurt them, but i dont believe it is always protected by freedom of speech.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
i read the book, and i saw the movie, and their damn course in citizenship wasnt what i was talking about.

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But you apparently didn't read my post, as you've just repeated me after saying I'm wrong.

You said, "its like in starship troopers, civilians dont get to vote because they havent proven they love their country, but citizens have some proof of this." You went on to talk about the current citizenship course, which I misread as still referring to Starship Troopers, since you don't separate your sentences well.

Regardless, I corrected you with "Much better than simply taking a course, the right to vote was given to veterans of civil service (veteran teachers, etc) and of the military. People who have devoted at least a part of their life to serve the country."

Now, quick with personal attacks, you lash out, claiming I'm wrong, and repeat what I said practically word for word to show what's right. "in starship troopers, in order to be able to vote, you have to be a citizen. in order to be a citizen you have to have done military service(or something to that effect) doing this service proves you care about your country."

You're fast with the insults, but somewhat slow on the uptake. Give it a rest.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
now, granted saying things about someone in another language isnt going to hurt them, but i dont believe it is always protected by freedom of speech.

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Why, saying things about someone in another language would almost be like whispering comments to your friend! You've never done that, I suppose, as that couldn't possibly be protected by freedom of speech; the victim of your secret insults wouldn't know what you were laughing at him for.

i personally think that every american citizen should know english, and that it should be our official language. i don't think that this means that nobody should speak OTHER languages, just that english should be the official language of the u.s. government.

aussi: moi, j'ai étudieé le français pour trois ans. je puis parler un peu de français maintenenant, mais je comprends assez pour passer

(please don't slaughter me if i spelled it wrong or used bad grammar, it's been a while since i've been anywhere near someone i could speak french with.)

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

This message has been edited by kuru on October 01, 2000 at 07:54 PM

The notion of free speech concerns the subject of such speech, not the method in which it is said.

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Originally posted by Keeps:
Patriotism is good. Forced patriotism is not. Earning money and doing whatever you want with it is good. Forcing people to do specific things with their money is not. The former is something we actively attack in other countries, and the latter is edging dangerously close to communism, which as nice as it sounds, isn't a good system.

British English and American English aren't different enough to qualify as anything other than accents, or possibly dialects. A few extra Us, a few different nouns, and some change in slang and you've switched from American to British. That isn't a factor in making it hard to learn, though it is.

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did i say anything about forced patriotism?
no, now let me clear that up for ya, if you don't like my country then get the hell out and stay the hell out until you can atleast like this country for something other than the "money".

Earning money and doing whatever you want with it is good unless your not paying taxes on it and sending it out of the country.
(i'm gonna pick on mexicans/don't be offended) lets face it, most mexicans don't have a "good" job. they work in tabacco, or some other crap job. do the farmers take out taxes NO. how does this country make money? (other than the cia and dea selling drugs) TAXES. i know of mexicans sending thousands of dollars back "home" and not spending jack shit "here". not only that but they take jobs away from "americans"/citizens.
i'm not to happy that i have to pay some fat ass lazy getthio bitch 跌 a month to sit on her/his ass, and it pisses me off even more to think that thousands of dollars are being shipped out with no taxes. (i'm sure this is not the only time this happens)

it's rude to move over here and not learn the basics of the english language. guawk-monta-molle-holba-espaniola. you can talk about me all you want, but when you go into the fucking store and can figure out 'beer' (true example, for all you goodies out there it could just as easily been 'pepsi')there is something wrong with that. why should i have to pay extra attention to "you" so you can get something that the most basic of english would have solved.

every english teacher i have had say it is another language, argue if you want but i don't think i will listen! (unless you have a doctor's degree in english, such as my english III teacher)

damn thats a hugh bitch!/post

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did i say anything about forced patriotism?

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Why is it no one actually reads the whole post? You'll notice the quote header clearly says "Originally posted by Sithiee:", and not "Originally posted by pengu1nn:".

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lets face it, most mexicans don't have a "good" job.

...

not only that but they take jobs away from "americans"/citizens.

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Just read that again. They have bad jobs, but they take jobs away from Americans? Would you really want the jobs they take? Immigrants tend to be willing to take the jobs that Americans don't want. This is a good thing. It keeps things getting done, and everyone's happy. Were an American to want their jobs, they could have it instantly, by virtue of speaking English and having a social security number. With today's economy, if you don't have a job, it's because you don't want one. There is always work for someone willing to wash dishes. If you want to be a janitor, walk into the office and ask for the job. They will hire you on the spot. If you don't want to be a janitor, or a fruit-picker, or a dish-washer, then stop complaining about all the wonderful jobs immigrants take away.

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i'm not to happy that i have to pay some fat ass lazy getthio bitch 跌 a month to sit on her/his ass

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You shouldn't have gotten them pregnant, then. If you're talking about welfare, that's mostly native citizens wasting your money, not immigrants.

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every english teacher i have had say it is another language, argue if you want but i don't think i will listen! (unless you have a doctor's degree in english, such as my english III teacher)

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Calling British English another language is like calling New England English and Deep South English different languages. I don't care about your teacher's credentials; a doctorate doesn't mean much. If you were to put "fluency in both American and UK English" on a resume, you would be laughed at, and rightly so. They're less different than Spanish and Mexican.

2, Yes, actually. One of my professors is British, and I went to London over spring break last semester with a friend of mine. I can understand them better than my Indian TA, so maybe we should declare the Indian accent another language too. What, do you believe in ebonics, too?

at least, that's what i thought he meant.

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kuru
'put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S
relativity.' - albert einstein

quote:

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Originally posted by Keeps:
Why is it no one actually reads the whole post? You'll notice the quote header clearly says "Originally posted by Sithiee:", and not "Originally posted by pengu1nn:".

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hrm, that might have been right other than the fact that there was no quotes in the post i replied to. i think you need to read the whole post again!(mainly 13 and 14)
correct me if i'm wrong but i don't see anything about sithiee.

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by me
i'm not to happy that i have to pay some fat ass lazy getthio bitch 跌 a month to sit on her/his ass, and it pisses me off even more to think that thousands of dollars are being shipped out with no taxes.

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what the hell? pregnant! if i was gonna get someone pregnant it wouldn't be some fat ass, lazy, gettho bitch thats for sure!!!
read what i quoted above, i still don't see where you got someone was pregnant.

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I don't care about your teacher's credentials; a doctorate doesn't mean much.

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isn't a doc degree "higher up" than a masters? anyway, lets get off the subject about english and how hard it is to learn(although i still think it is the hardest, and there is a difference between american * and english *english).

ok, so would i want one of those shit cleaner jobs that the mexicans get? HELL NO, but i have a job and can afford to live without welfare, there are americans who "can't", so instead of some non-english speaking mexican getting paid, it should be ol' fat lazy gettho bitch scrubbing the floors, not her nails!

if you speak basic english and work that is fine (but it still bothers me that they send their non-taxed money to some other country)
we spend thousands of tax dollars (and cut down millions of trees) to put everything in atleast 2 different languages. if the sorry fuckers would learn some english think of all the trees (or if we would just use hemp) we would save, and the thousands of dollars that could goto, for example, homeless shelters.

This message has been edited by pengu1nn on October 03, 2000 at 12:02 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by pengu1nn:
hrm, that might have been right other than the fact that there was no quotes in the post i replied to. i think you need to read the whole post again!(mainly 13 and 14)
correct me if i'm wrong but i don't see anything about sithiee.

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Oh, yes, you're right, I read the wrong one. You can read my posts, you just can't read your own, as you certainly did say you wanted forced patriotism:

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to be in our country:
they should learn our language,
they should shut the hell up about their "other" country
they should stop sending their money back to guakomoley or where ever (it doesn't help our economy if their not spending/investing it in our country)

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You simply hide it behind restrictions of freedoms in the name of the greater good of the state.

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Originally posted by pengu1nn:
isn't a doc degree "higher up" than a masters?

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Yes, it is. Neither has as much to do with intelligence as you would think. Any English teacher who knows what they're talking about wouldn't call American and British English separate languages; I've never heard anyone say that until I came here.

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ok, so would i want one of those shit cleaner jobs that the mexicans get? HELL NO, but i have a job and can afford to live without welfare, there are americans who "can't", so instead of some non-english speaking mexican getting paid, it should be ol' fat lazy gettho bitch scrubbing the floors, not her nails!

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This would be easier to argue against if it made sense. Somewhat ironic that you demand immigrants learn the basics of English yet can't clearly express your problems with them (last time I took English, proper spelling, capitalization, and punctuation were considered basics, but maybe the rules have changed since last semester).

Are you saying American citizens on welfare should get the jobs Mexicans take away? If so, I completely agree. However, that's not a problem with immigrants. That's a problem with the Americans on welfare. As I've already said, if they wanted a job, they could get one. They could walk into a custodial services office and they would be hired on the spot. But they don't want any job, they want a cushy job. They're more comfortable living on your wasted tax dollars than scrubbing someone else's floors. Don't blame immigrants for that; that's entirely our own problem.

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we spend thousands of tax dollars (and cut down millions of trees) to put everything in atleast 2 different languages. if the sorry fuckers would learn some english think of all the trees (or if we would just use hemp) we would save, and the thousands of dollars that could goto, for example, homeless shelters.

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That, again, isn't a problem with immigrants. That's because there is no official language. If there were an official language, it wouldn't matter if they didn't speak English, because things would still be written in only English. I'm not saying they shouldn't learn the language, and I'm not saying it's not rude not to. But fixing it has nothing to do with immigrants themselves.

As a side note, there are more trees in America right now then there were in the middle ages. Paper manufacturers know it's in their best interests to replant.

This message has been edited by Keeps on October 03, 2000 at 02:29 PM

While paper manufacturers do replant, there is still much less forest in the US than there was in the Middle Ages. Anyone who tells you different does not have their facts straight.

The best recourse is to recycle, something that the greater part of the US does not do properly. For instance, about 80-90\% of what is thrown away is recyclable, yet winds up in landfills, and typically does not degrade properly. Many people think that paper is biodegradable, but in many cases, paper has been treated to make it last longer, and without the introduction of bacteria and water to waste paper, it usually lasts between 50-70 years in relatively untouched condition in a landfill.

As for the whole immigrant thing, unless you are a citizen of the US, you should not be eligible for welfare or other government benefits. It should be harder to get citizenship than it is, and English should be the national language. All immigrants over the age of 18 should be required to learn English enough to communicate before being granted citizenship. And all immigrants’ children should be required to pass a Basic English skills test before they are granted the right to vote in an election, or adult status in the US. Citizenship should be required for anyone to earn income in the US, except in the cases of a foreign exchange student, person with a green card or other extended stay permission, or a visiting dignitary/ambassador. Anything less than this is inadequate and is in effect robbing taxpayers of their money to give to people who aren't deserving of it.

And welfare is bad. Period. I don't care if it's going to natural born American citizens or not, it's still poorly set up and wrong.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Recycling good. Welfare bad. I particularly don't like seeing pictures of people on welfare in articles talking about how badly off they are, and seeing a 40-50 inch widescreen HDTV in the background.

Requiring immigrants to learn English makes perfect sense if it's the national language. I certainly wouldn't object to that, but leaving out that step makes it baseless. Didn't Arizona or New Mexico try to make English their official language a while ago? I remember everyone unfortunately getting up in arms and the measure not passing.

I don't think it's so wrong to hire illegal immigrants, though. But I don't really like the idea of illegal immigration. Huddled masses yearning to break free, and all that. In the early eighties, when it was still legal to, my parents hired an illegal immigrant to be a housemaid. And they did take taxes out of her wages - it was entirely legitimate.

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as you certainly did say you wanted forced patriotism:
(insert what i said about "to be in our country")

You simply hide it behind restrictions of freedoms in the name of the greater good of the state.

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Any English teacher who knows what they're talking about wouldn't call American and British English separate languages; I've never heard anyone say that until I came here.

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This would be easier to argue against if it made sense. Somewhat ironic that you demand immigrants learn the basics of English yet can't clearly express your problems with them (last time I took English, proper spelling, capitalization, and punctuation were considered basics, but maybe the rules have changed since last semester).

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Requiring immigrants to learn English makes perfect sense if it's the national language. I certainly wouldn't object to that, but leaving out that step makes it baseless

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baseless! millions of dollars a year just so our teachers can speak both guakomollien and english. that "millions" could still go into the education system in the form of computers or (this was on the news last night) to repair the roofs and ac/heating units, or even more fields of study for the students. of course my child learning restricted education (this should be in a different thread) in a school building with holes in the roof so rain is all over them and it is cold because there is no heat is baseless! (just one example)

no time to proof read so my english might be off.

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and i haven't heard alot of things, but that doesn't mean the person saying it has no intellegnce, just because i haven't heard it before.

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But just because they wave around credentials, you believe everything they say without thinking for yourself. Much better.

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basic english (the way i use it in this thread) this being able to speak it aloud

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For most people, I really couldn't care less how they type, until it gets in the way of comprehension. But when you start expecting immigrants to learn English better than you yourself know it, something's wrong. And just being able to speak English aloud won't help any in saving paper, so they'll have to learn to read and write, too. And the basics of English writing, as should have been explained in the fourth grade, includes capitalization and proper punctuation. If you don't even have those basics, you can't rationally expect immigrants to learn them.

And yes, it is baseless. It is, I'd think, illegal to require immigrants to learn English for national citizenship until and unless it becomes the official language. Make it official, and you can save the money.

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
ok, id like to point out that i had no trouble understanding what was being said, so i think keeps is a little, well, idiotic.

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Seeing as how that's your response to everyone who disagrees with you, that's not a surprise. This is, incidentally, exactly what half the people on this board complain about religious fanatics doing.

No, I didn't have any trouble understanding what was being said, in this case. But you should try applying that great comprehension on my post, and read what I actually wrote - that the inability to understand is the only time I will normally point it out, but that this is a special, hypocritical case.

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second, i completely agree, my school is supposed to be relativly well off, and yet we cant even hire an exterminator to get rid of all the pests in our art/tech ed wing. our art teachers guard their paint like gold because they get so little money. if we didnt have to go around making exceptions for the people who wont learn english, think about all the money we would still have?

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Relatively well-off? Do you have computers in all the classrooms, and fancy things like that? My high school was relatively well-off, and did. School-wide ethernet, every room had a Pentium and a 19" monitor. If the school hadn't wasted so much money on these toys that never got used, maybe they could have hired real teachers. Studies have shown that despite the learning potential of computers, computers in classrooms do little to nothing for actually helping students to learn. But schools still waste money on them, to make themselves look advanced. Mine bought four or five hundred top-of-the-line computers that never got used, and hired five separate companies to set them up. One to supply the computers and deliver them, one to take them from storage into each room, one to take them out of the boxes, one to set them up, and one to turn them all on and install the software. But they had money, and a reputation as the rich school of the city, so they did it anyways. Letting some people take English as a Second Language instead of French isn't what keeps public schools in the gutter.

Finally, something that Canada has better than the states, we require any immigrants other than refugee's to speak either English or French(if they plan to live in Quebec).

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

damn, maybe canadians arent that bad. and yes, we have computers and all this shit, we just bought like 30k worth of cisco routers for our cisco class. im a little upset about it (little, because i got the class started) because the budget they gave use to buy materials to build a wiring closet (around 650) is the same budget the entire art wing staff gets total. this says to me that a) the education center here is dumb and b) money must be being wasted somewhere.

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Originally posted by Keeps:
You don't want forced patriotism, but you want people either devoted to the country or gone, and you don't see how they're the same?

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not people, just immigrants.
let me put it to you like this (i hope you can understand it, as it might not be in basic english)
guako is an immigrant. guako wants to live in my house only to eat my food. i wouldn't let him in (although if he was starving i might give him a sandwhich before i show him the door). guako's brother whats to live in my house as well, but he is willing to help put food in the house and help support the house as a whole. guako's brother would be welcomed into my house.

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But just because they wave around credentials, you believe everything they say without thinking for yourself. Much better.

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your lame personal attacks don't change the fact that i have legitimate backing to my side of that story, where as all you have is that you've never heard that said until you came here.

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For most people, I really couldn't care less how they type, until it gets in the way of comprehension. But when you start expecting immigrants to learn English better than you yourself know it, something's wrong. And just being able to speak English aloud won't help any in saving paper, so they'll have to learn to read and write, too. And the basics of English writing, as should have been explained in the fourth grade, includes capitalization and proper punctuation. If you don't even have those basics, you can't rationally expect immigrants to learn them.

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is that a double negitave i see?

once again you attack me with the "fact" that i don't know basic english (of course this post (and all others that i write) are really written in german and your computer translates it before your browser puts it up on the screen), your right i don't know how to capitalize or use a comma right (in this ubb anyway, if this was a letter to the president it might be a different story) the paper thing is an example, used to reinforce my point, sure they would have to read and write to save the trees, and i have no problem with them learning to do that either.

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And yes, it is baseless. It is, I'd think, illegal to require immigrants to learn English for national citizenship until and unless it becomes the official language. Make it official, and you can save the money.

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it is the official language, just not on paper! does bill clinton address the public in spanish? german? why did we have to take english every year we were in school (not sure about college)???

This message has been edited by pengu1nn on October 05, 2000 at 09:24 AM

Sithiee, "idiotic people like me" just happens to include everyone who contradicts you in any way, however minor, does it? That's not opinionated so much as it is fanatical. It's perfectly normal, though; you're a rebelling teenager who thinks he knows everything, who is always right, and everyone else is always wrong. You're average. a) The people handling money in public education systems are always dumb, and that's why: b) Money is being wasted everywhere. You just said ฮ,000 was spent on one class, and you can't figure out where the money's going to? It's not going to translating the lunch menu.

pengu1nn, your "legitimate backing" still fails the Think About It test. Look at UK English. Look at American English. And then Think About It. And until it's legislated, English isn't the official language, regardless of how many people speak it.

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

Sithiee, I haven't seen you listen to anyone's points since I started reading this board. The moment anyone says anything slightly different from you, you launch into a tirade of insults to their intelligence. The example of the routers shows that yes, the school does have money lying around. But it gets wasted on ฮ,000 toys, not translating all the school's documents into multiple languages to accomodate the students who don't know English, regardless of whether you have lunch menus or not.

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Originally posted by Keeps:
pengu1nn, your "legitimate backing" still fails the Think About It test. Look at UK English. Look at American English. And then Think About It.

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Originally posted by Keeps:
And until it's legislated, English isn't the official language, regardless of how many people speak it.

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Originally posted by Keeps:
The point, j0eSmith, is that Canada requires people to learn the language because there is an official language, whereas America does not have an official language, so cannot require people to learn it.

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but they do require us to learn it. every year that you are in school (1-12) you are required to take english!

I really hope you three aren't half as serious about this as you're acting, because this is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.

wonder why he didn't include himself that last post?

What A Jackass.

quit tring to defend your stance with lame insults to me/everyone else (which seems to be the only thing you can use to debate)

< Look > we are both right, and we are both wrong. Different grammer, verbage, vocabulary, and pronunciation means it is a different language to me (that makes you wrong) however, it can also be seen as a dialect (which makes me wrong)
take it how i leave it, whatever.

as for sithiee, you started with him, go back and read all the posts again.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Saying "get up and leave" does NOT apply to us, the citizens and natives of the US. This is our home, and I think I speak for all of us when I say I'd be damned if I'm going to pack up and leave my home because someone else is making it less than desirable.

Personally, I could never argue forced patriotism. The Nazis already showed us all about that. However, I think everyone should have a moderate understanding of the rules and principles that govern this country. (for example, knowing the spirit of the Constitution, how the government operates, etc.) I, like many others, have a lot of criticism for this country, but as a native citizen, that is my JOB.

Oh, and I don't think communism is good in practice OR theory. It's Marxist (and Engel's) idealism (the notion of dialectical materialism) that sounds appealing. Communism rallies too hard on forcing a stateless and classless society and the equal distribution of wealth through a state-controled, one-party government...something that seems a bit contradictory to me. Plus, it all happens at the expense of personal freedom. Fuck that.

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I never let my schooling get in the way of my education - Mark Twain

Well, stop taking this so seriously. I'd fight for their right to not speak english, but at the same time every time on of em babbles something in spanish, which is not the common tongue, i want to bash their head in with a sledgehammer.

I mean seriously, doesnt it piss you off at all?????? How can it not? Fuckers come over here cause their country sucks and then they make fun of you in a language you cant understand just because their country is so small and pathetic and shitty no one wants to bother to learn their pathetic little shitty language cause it prolly sucks anyways. so fuck em.

thats why i hate immagrants.

And despite that, i have enough honor to uphold their right to piss me off. because i am far from the final authority on this subject. I am just another schmuck who has an opinion.

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Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

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Originally posted by Mahdimael:
Yeah, I imagine if you asked any Native American, they'd say "Get the fuck out of our country, paleskin" or "Why don't you speak Cherokee?"

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Irrelevant. First of all, Cherokees did not create this country. Secondly, there are several native American languages, so there would no reason to choose one over the other. Third, the natives have their land, speak English and their own tongue, and the debate surrounding them belongs in another thread.

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In any event, you'd be foolish to think that a person could make it in the U.S. without learning some English.

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Then I guess I'm a fool, because I see hundreds of non-English speaking residents running amok in Los Angeles, working their different jobs and sustaining life in their little foreign communities...never bothering to learn a lick of English. Oh yeah, did I mention these people are voting and collecting social security? Maybe not, seeing how I am so...foolish.

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Government stuff does have multilingual forms, but almost everything else doesn't.

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Right. So I guess this wouldn't include: foreign television, multinational radio, international nonprofit organizations, alien assistance programs, welfare-to-work for non-citizens, et cetera, et cetera.

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You generally don't see road signs in many languages, or stores or any kind of commercial thing for that matter.

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What planet are you living on? You need to take a trip to Chinatown. ANY Chinatown. Or maybe Little Saigon. Or perhaps Koreatown. Maybe Little Italy would strike your fancy? Of course, there's always the Barrio. Regardless, try not to let cultural deprivation get in the way of your facts next time.

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Think of it this way- what if they made the official language Vietnamese for some reason? Would you learn it as quickly as you should, or even be willing to?

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Invalid. This is a hypothetical scenario based on ill-assumptions and thus carries no logical merit. Why would this ever happen? Who would ever dare put it into practice? Why should we even consider the implications of this inconceivable situation?

The point is that we are living in the United States of America, a country founded by European colonists who spoke English. Since 1776, when it all became official, people in this nation have been speaking English. I see no reason for change. Therefore, let's strengthen our linguistic status quo and start making changes to ensure that the people suckling at the nipple of our tax dollars are playing an active role in society. (the first step of which is learning our frickin language)

edit: forgot to /b

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on October 07, 2000 at 05:14 PM

I didn't mean to make you think that I was only speaking about the Cherokee. I just used that as an example. But it does make a good example. You say that the Native American tribes speak English and their own languages. Why do you suppose this is? Perhaps because when the colonists and others who moved into their land spoke those languages? Tribes in Canada learned French so that they could communicate, but it was more rare that a European settler would learn the Native tongue. In effect, the Native Americans adapted to the people coming into their lands.
You are correct on one point, and that is the ethnic neighborhoods that exist. I didn't think about that aspect of things. It's true that these people can survive within their own neighborhoods, but it is another thing to think that someone could make it, for example, in the corporate world, without learning English.
Another misconception you seem to foster is that all immigrants are collecting social security. And only immigrants, one could extrapolate. But that simply isn't true, if you've ever been to a social secuity office, you'll see plenty of US Citizens there as well. And as far as voting, well, I have no problem with someone taking interest in the election process if they live here. It's not like they sneak across the border to vote one day, then sneak back at night, saying "Haha, those foolish Americans will now have bad political leaders!"
In terms of commercial and social things, they are merely a response to the shifting populations. For instance, in California there was a 165\% increase in Asian population and 134-or-so \% increase in Hispanic population. It's thought that by 2020 "White" populations will be a minority here. So obviously there's some important reason that companies would offer language friendly material. And social programs are there for the specific reasons you're griping about - to turn immigrants/aliens into productive citizens.
Finally, I'm amused that you don't see the importance of looking towards the future. As I stated before, non-European populations are increasing in America. There's no reason that Vietnamese couldn't become a major language in the next 50 years, or any other language.
I'll leave you with this: One of the first votes in Congress was to make the official language German. It failed by a single vote.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Invalid. This is a hypothetical scenario based on ill-assumptions and thus carries no logical merit. Why would this ever happen? Who would ever dare put it into practice? Why should we even consider the implications of this inconceivable situation?

The point is that we are living in the United States of America, a country founded by European colonists who spoke [b]English. Since 1776, when it all became official, people in this nation have been speaking English. I see no reason for change. Therefore, let's strengthen our linguistic status quo and start making changes to ensure that the people suckling at the nipple of our tax dollars are playing an active role in society. (the first step of which is learning our frickin language)

edit: forgot to /b

[/B]

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I never let my schooling get in the way of my education - Mark Twain

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
And still, I can't get over the fact that non-citizens are allowed to vote and collect social security. What bleeding moron came up with this idea? Heck, when I first heard that this was true, I couldn't believe my ears! I thought it was a joke! There is [b] no logical explanation for this. Why should someone be allowed to vote on issues pertaining to the future of our nation when they may just pack up and leave tomorrow? And why should these people be contributing to the fact that when we grow up, there's not going to be any social security money left for us?! [/B]

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I've never heard that. WTF? Can this be true? Could our laws actually be that retarded?

However, you do not have to be a citizen to be able to collect social security. This I know for a fact. Old people who are resident aliens (with citizen relatives) can come to this country and collect a portion of the 12\% that's taken out of your paycheck every two weeks. I know people who do this. It's perfectly legal.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on October 12, 2000 at 10:47 AM

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Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:
Translation "I JUST WANT TO BE ABLE TO ORDER A GODDAMNED STRAWBERRY MILKSHAKE IN THE FUCKING DRIVE THROUGH AT MC DONALDS WITH OUT THE FUCKING WINDOW DUDE GETTING CONFUSED"

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not the way i would have put it, but well said anyway

--directhex

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The master has no need for money. And yet he sits and counts it. As a meditation.
-The Book of Cataclysm

Dan- I'd like a cheeseburger with no cheese, please.
Guy- You mean a hamburger?
Dan- No a cheeseburger with NO CHEESE.

Dan- Hi! I'd like a hamburger with no meat.

Dan- Yes, I'd like twenty quarter pounders, nineteen with no buns. I'm going to make my own five-pounder.

I don't know where he got it, but it's kinda funny, especially at the drive thru.

okay, so our town had nothig to do in it...

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Originally posted by askheaves:
What we need to be able to do is create a culture that is not coddling to folks of different languages. They should be able to survive, but it should be to their advantage to learn english. As for English being the hardest language to learn: it's certainly easier for them to learn english when they are immersed in the culture. The best music, tv, news, information and more are in english. If they want to enjoy it, it would pay for them to put in the effort.

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What you suggest, in light on your anti-required English stance, is impossible.

How would you do this? Forcibly dissipate all ethnic communities? Ask really, really nicely? No. I don't think so.

The situation, in order to be rectified, needs force. The only legal, legitimate force we have access to is our legislature.

Therefore, we need a law.

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Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
What you suggest, in light on your anti-required English stance, is impossible.

How would you do this? Forcibly dissipate all ethnic communities? Ask really, really nicely? No. I don't think so.

The situation, in order to be rectified, needs force. The only legal, legitimate force we have access to is our legislature.

Therefore, we need a law.

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Of course not. Not everything needs to be accomplished through legislation or even force. I'm saying that the only way to solve this problem is through a culture that doesn't encourage language divides and communication gaps. This cannot happen through a forceful edict from the government.

I don't offer a solution. I don't think that there is a way to enact a cultural change from a single point of origin... and I don't think that there should be. This sort of thing is usually spontaneous and seems to follow along with the majority.

I may believe that English should be the primary language of this country. I learned English because I was 10 months old, and that's all people around me really knew. It became very beneficial for me to speak in English. In fact, after a certain age, my parents wouldn't acknowledge me unless I spoke in complete sentances. I'm glad that I did, because I was able to eat. The same kind of culture needs to exist... and I think we're moving towards that. The best things in this country are aimed at those who speak English (mostly due to market forces), and that is a pretty good incentive.

My point is that the way to reform isn't necessarily through mandates and laws. I'm a republican at heart, and I believe in the people to solve most of their problems.

There are closer to 10 million immigrants a year, fully 25 percent of them are illegal and fully 75 percent of them dont do a damn thing to help out, not to mention they dont fucking speak english.

I live in LA, and goddamn talk about bilingual. we have freakin segregation over here, everthing has to be in spanish and english or there is like a law suit party. National laungage or not, its pretty much a given that americans speak ENGLISH, so if you live here, learn to speak ENGLISH, or GETHEFUCKOUT, or QUITYOURBITCHEN.

that may seem a bit unforgiving, but i dont think that its fair to cater to the further degradation of the country, and this bilingual school thing a while back, and the ebonics bullshit is a prime example of that degredation.

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Originally posted by askheaves:
Not everything needs to be accomplished through legislation or even force. I'm saying that the only way to solve this problem is through a culture that doesn't encourage language divides and communication gaps. This cannot happen through a forceful edict from the government.

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I agree that not everything needs to be accomplished by force or legislation, but to do what you ask does require said force.

Think of it like this: A rabbit makes a burrow in a heap of discarded items, and begins to live and breed in the new landfill home. Even if you offered the rabbit a brand new patch of fresh grass and luscious green ferns, it is not going to leave. Why? Because it has established itself in a certain environment it now calls home. It has assimilated into a way of life. It would be a frightening, risky, and inconvenient burden to pack up and leave, and the rabbit will not budge.

However, forcibly take away the rabbit's food source, and it will soon be moving time.

I'm not saying starve all the immigrants, but the essence of the analogy still holds it's theme. Only by forcibly mandating an English requirement will non-speaking residents begin to find true need to alter their established direction of life. The operative word here, of course, is need. People don't go out of their way unless they truly need to. Groups of non-English speaking Americans are perpetuating because a standard has been set - like a template in a printing press - and new replicants of old disasters are multiplying every day. We need to help them. Our legislation needs to help the problem.

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I don't offer a solution. I don't think that there is a way to enact a cultural change from a single point of origin...

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And that, young Jedi, is why you fail.
(sorry, I just always wanted to say that )

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My point is that the way to reform isn't necessarily through mandates and laws. I'm a republican at heart, and I believe in the people to solve most of their problems.

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Sure, people need to help themselves. That's a wonderful idealistic notion to embrace. But actuality, it is not. Some catalyst needs to put change in motion. Mere words, pleading, and empty hope won't change anything. These people are semi-comfortable in their lives, biting the hand that feeds them. Without an irrefutable standard enforced by law, no change will be made. However, once the ball is rolling, and progress approaches, the new culture you speak of will be prevalent, and such a law will no longer be inherently forceful.