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In the multi-trillions of years before us, who knows...but in a split-second (universe time - more like a few billion to us) we appeared and grew from a single cell to our present culture. Assuming that we are able to travel to space and enhabit other planets, this will likely occur in the time period of another 'split-second' (say, a few million years). Now, we have gone from nothing in the universe to a culture that is rapidly expanding across the universe in an extremely short time period, absolutely speaking. Therefore, if intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe they must either be 1)not much more advanced than us, 2)very far away, 3) hiding themselves from us, or they don't exist.

you probably think i pulled that out of my ass just now. i'll try to explain this a bit...

Now, since we came into being and expanded so fast, it seems unlikely that another civilization exists right now, because they would have had to spontaneously form at essentially the SAME TIME as us (remember, a million years is nothing...), which is highly unlikely. Ok, so what if intelligent life does exist? Well, from the first case, we'd have to assume that they've had a LOT of time to advance, seeing as how they would have been around long before us. Which means that they'd almost definetly have developed some means of inhabiting other planets (one star only lasts so long). Now, after inhabiting a few solar systems, their ability to colonize should rapidly improve, to the point of exponential growth (over millions of years). If this is the case, they should have expanded so far that they would have covered all of the universe (is that possible?), or their transmissions would cover a great part of it (i'd think they would be interested in other forms of intelligent life, too). so this couldn't have happened unless they are Very far away...even after they've had millions of years to colonize galaxies, at an exponential rate. Otherwise we would have picked up a signal by now. It seems unlikely that we wouldn't have discovered some evidence by now, if they are ALL OVER THE PLACE (just not around here, heh). This would only leave the third choice, that they found and are watching us, but are hiding so that we can't see/detect them ... or that intelligent life doesn't exist anywhere else right now..

in any case, that was a rant-and-a-half

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"It's not peer pressure, its just your turn." - Unknown

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[This message has been edited by darksol (edited September 22, 2000).]

now if you just mean other life in the universe, then statistically, there really is almost no way there isnt. not only in our general area, but when you take into consideration the infinite space theorem(see below) theres probably an infinite amount of "intelligent life" living up my ass right now.

infinite space theorem: electrons, neutrons and protons make up atoms. there is space between these particles. the idea is that there could be a lot more space or a lot less, and that would severely change the size of the atom. so like if our atoms have 1 unit of space, another set of atoms could have 1(put lots and lots and lots of 0s here) units of space btw the particles, and our universe can fit nicely inside that space. if this doesnt make sense, watch men in black, and at the end, thats kind of what im talking about.

if anyone has the textbook definition of this, please correct me...

Also, hyperponic, it might do you good to pay more attention in science. This universe is not believed to be multi-trillions of years old, evidence so far suggests it is more in the 15-20 billion year range.

More seriously, if there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy, then the chances are pretty high that at least a few of those stars have a planet with conditions that can support life of some sort or another, and with 100 billion galaxies to chose from in the observed universe, there's also a fair chance that some of them might have developed life; whether it is like anything on earth is anyone's guess. Depending on how many such fertile planets there are, there might or might not be a planet (or hundreds of them) with life in similar stages of evolution to our own planet.

The fact is we don't know for sure if there is sentient life out there, and speculation on the matter is more the stuff of science fiction than science. *Cue Star Trek theme music* We would have to in some way visit or observe these sentient beings, or see evidence of their existence before we could be sure. But until then, I'm sure us humans will be more than happy to continue to "boldly go where no man has gone before" in our attempts to learn all the hidden secrets of the vast universe we live in....

Sorry, I guess I watch too much SciFi and Science shows.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

If there is a God that created our universe and started life, then maybe we are just here to serve him and our lives hold no other purpose. But then again maybe God loves playing around with life forms and created thousands of other life forms all over the universe...and he's just waiting for us to discover each other...

(I'm telling you it's a big sim universe, and God is ..well..playing God..)

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It seems to me that the discussion can't go further unless the terms it uses are defined.

Multicellular life takes an obscene amount of luck - witness that almost all of life on Earth's has been single celled, with multicellular crammed in quickly at the very end.

Intelligence is impossible. There's no facet of standard evolution that leads towards intelligence, as that's not required for efficient breeding. Just look at most of humanity. Cockroaches, as well, are very highly evolved, to the point where they've kept the same basic form with only minor refinements for a hundred million years or so.

It took a series of freak coincidences, most obviously the completely arbitrary extinction of the dinosaurs, to grow humanity's oversized brain, any one of which could have kept us from becoming intelligent.

In his novel Sundiver, David Brin even seriously imagines forms of life on the sun. This is outlandish, taking the idea to the extreme, but it gets the point across. I wouldn't be surprised to find single-celled life on every planet in this system and the next, and just about everywhere in between. I would be thrilled to find multi-celled life, but that would almost certainly be substantially more rare. It's depressing, but following this, finding intelligence is about as impossible as our own existance. Maybe even more so, since we could have swallowed up the only winning hand for a long time. I certainly hope we're not alone, and there are certainly enough stars to give lightning a good chance of striking twice, but so far it's unlikely, at least in this galaxy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rhydant:
i do believe that there is life beyong ours. i mean, look at the pyramids. i think they were built by aliens. humans couldnt of built them. hell, WE couldnt build them now. theres many pieces of evidence to support this, but im not gonna get into that.

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You're just kidding, right? Do you know ANYTHING about architecture? It has been shown that, given enough time and enough people, humans can build very massive and very detailed structures. It's foolish to think for a second that humans are incapable of building pyramids, or stonehenge, or a great wall, or a ziggurat...

And if you don't think so, then ask yourself this: why the FUCK would an alien being (or beings) land, build dozens of structures all over the world over various time periods, while human civilizations were built up in the same locations, then disappear without a trace while somehow convincing all of mankind to just 'forget' about them?

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Alien Life = The World's Next Religion

i do think that whatever intelligent life exists elsewhere in this universe is not something that we could ever comprehend, just like it probably couldn't comprehend us. we're limited severely by our human definitions, human understandings, and human sight. the truth is, we can't possibly imagine what's beyond the things that we can see.... there could be "life" out there that we wouldn't even consider to be alive, that doesn't share any charactaristics of the kind of life we understand, and has an intelligence that is nothing at all like ours.

now if the question is whether or not there are human-like intelligent life forms out there somewhere, i'd say that's pretty damn unlikely.... but given that whatever's out there could be infinitely different than us, the fact that we were a complete freak accident doesn't lessen the chance that some other complete freak accident in a totally different direction happened.

i hope that made sense, because the english language is seeming pretty damned inadequate for saying what i mean right now.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

Odd.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
i do think that whatever intelligent life exists elsewhere in this universe is not something that we could ever comprehend, just like it probably couldn't comprehend us. we're limited severely by our human definitions, human understandings, and human sight. the truth is, we can't possibly imagine what's beyond the things that we can see.... there could be "life" out there that we wouldn't even consider to be alive, that doesn't share any charactaristics of the kind of life we understand, and has an intelligence that is nothing at all like ours.

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How are you defining life that there could be something alive that doesn't fit the definition? I realize that alien is alien, but what is there that would keep us from recognizing different intelligences or life as being such? People throw this excuse that it could be different around a lot without thinking it through. I can tell you definitively that dolphins, dogs and cats, for example, aren't intelligent. This isn't because I can't see it through my humanity, this is because they aren't. They certainly feel, and they most definitely have emotions. They communicate. But listen to dolphin songs, or the dog barking monotonously down the street. They're conveying emotion, not information. I've seen a cat get its collar caught and wind around it until it started suffocating itself, at which point it frantically tried to keep spinning in the same direction to free itself until I had a chance to get her free. That's not intelligence any way you look at it, but only emotion.

Likewise with life: "an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction." Without that, what is it? It doesn't have to be cellular life. It doesn't have to be water-based. It doesn't have to be organic. But without those characteristics, it is not life. That's not human prejudice, that's what life is.

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
now if the question is whether or not there are human-like intelligent life forms out there somewhere, i'd say that's pretty damn unlikely.... but given that whatever's out there could be infinitely different than us, the fact that we were a complete freak accident doesn't lessen the chance that some other complete freak accident in a totally different direction happened.

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I never said it would never happen. We happened, after all. But if it had already happened within this galaxy in the last couple million years, we would know about it. We've been looking. We've been staring at the sky for millions of years, though you can throw aside most of that due to the lack of records. More recently, the SETI program has been listening, and has found nothing. If there's anyone else in the galaxy, they're relatively new, they're far away, or they're not advanced enough to matter.

Certainly, while most UFO sightings are false, once in a while one of them could be real, just checking to see if this planet is available to be colonized. But then again, Earth is brighter than the sun on some wavelengths, particularly military radar. We're shouting to the universe that we're here, and have been for decades. Come within twenty lightyears or more, and they would know we're here, and wouldn't need to bother checking. And why would every race be content to leave us alone?

I hope we're not alone. I'd like some variety, and the different concepts another race would certainly have. But for all the twelve billion years the universe has been around, it's more likely that we're the first, and will be, as a race, very lonely for a long time. I just hope that when we do finally start colonizing we don't disrupt any promising candidates.

i do believe that there is life beyong ours. i mean, look at the pyramids. i think they were built by aliens. humans couldnt of built them. hell, WE couldnt build them now. theres many pieces of evidence to support this, but im not gonna get into that.

then theres the thing of how life started. i mean, take the first single celled organisim. its comprised of /very/ basic substances like amino acids and stuff, but the thing is, how did these elements and compounds actually form to creat an intellegnce? we couldnt do anything like that. now i cant say that some higher being did that because we have no proof. then that cell evolved into a simple water plant, then jelly fish, then other boneless organisms, then fish, then reptiles and so on. its just mind blowing to think about it all, because we cant be sure of how it really happened.

but anyhow.. ALIENZ RULEZ! er, j/k

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UT 0wnz j00 all!

-Tony

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< w00t >.

So a concrete definition is not really available, but when we talk about alien intelligience beyond our galaxy, i'd say you must use your best judgement. Personally i'd say darksol meant anything that uses technology or is self-aware or something like that. Show me an alien, and i'll give you my best guess!

So is there intelligent life in this huge expanding universe? I say hell yeah, if there isn't anything other than us right now, there sure will be in the future. i just hope i'll be around to see it.

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aventari
"A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire

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its not realy fair to ask "what is life" or "what is alive" or "what are the common parameters of a lifeform" its really whatever you think it is, there's no universal absolute "LIFE" its an abstract idea that only aplies to your situation. its like asking what is the sientific definition of love. its just a word we made up to try to categorize similar events. its not like asking "what's a proton" a proton is a proton no mater how you look at it. they're the same here as they are in every part of the universe. there's nothing that's kinda a proton, it is a proton or it is'nt, it's an absolute. so when you ask what life is you're not asking what are the exact patterns that outline life, you're asking what are the common conceptions of these patterns.

and I definatly belive that viruses are alive. the fact that they can't produce without host cells just makes them parasytic.
if you followed the logic that told you because the virus doesnt consume energy mate and reproduce than its not alive. then if a creature existed like the one in the movie alien, then it wouldnt be alive, they didnt mate they chouldnt reproduce with out a host and it didnt look like they needed to eat much.

so if your'e searching for life on other planets I think you'd want to go on a case by case basis, not to blindly follow a ruleset.

and to tonydenis: i dont think the goverment is incapable of keeping any secrets, just not really big ones, espesialy when you have to hire technitions to work with the subject and have to inform supireor officers. if the cia did kill kenedy, or was involved with who did, they probably didnt keep records about it, and the people involved dont have any motivation to come forward.

This is straight from NewScientist, vol 167 issue 2251, 12/08/2000, page 20

This definition works for me.

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vegemite rocks!!!

Remember, its all your fault.

mars has/had life on it, remember a couple
of months ago when scientist said that based
on some astorid or comet (i know it wasn't a comet!)

that is right next door to us, the universe is huge, we can't be the life form out there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cr0bar:
Now we see the inadequacies of any definition of life emerging. This is my point.

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No, just of the definition of life as the continuous expenditure of energy. Lordbrandon's might work, since it's simple, and I can't think of anything offhand that breaks it. Maybe the self-assembly things in nanotech research.

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The definition of life may be ambiguous, but intelligence is probably not as ambiguous. If we find another intelligence in the universe, then either we will join forces and create a new golden age of peace and learning, or the shit will hit the fan and one wil wipe the other out. Or something else will happen, you never know.

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Alien is different. and giving the immense number of stars out htere, we all pretty much agree there has to be some life out there right?
Well, given the immense number of different conditions, im gonna bet that its pretty incredibly different from us. Maybe so different we wont even recognize it.

and yes, the Ender's Game series is kick ass - 100\% recommended.

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Because email can be altered electronically, the integrity of this communication cannot be guaranteed.

Biology.
The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

I don't think viruses are alive at all. They don't do anyhting. they just alter DNA. I think they are as alive as computer viruses.

they're continuously using free energy of atoms moving around in a nuclear reaction to produce radiation, heat and light.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

I do not belive (eg. take as truth) that living things/creatures/intelligent beings exist beyond our own planet.

Amebas, slime, bacteria, mold, sludge, plants - I belive that these things and the like MAY exist 'out there' but I very much doubt that those things are going to contact us anyday soon.

the universe is hugh, look at the sky at night, when you see a star (assuming you can see one/two/three/etc...) just think of how many planets are circling that "sun" or one of the million other "suns", there has to be life out there.

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"It's not peer pressure, its just your turn." - Unknown

Think of the simple act of reproduction in multicelled animals. How do the cells know when to specialize, and what to specialize into? Think of all of the hundreds of thousands of chemicals that need to be created at a specific time, in a specific quantity, to cause a healthy baby.

Think on this, as well--we have made educated guesses at what the "primordial soup" consisted of, and have been able to recreate the environment. If life is so "easy", then why are we so totally unable to create it ourselves?

As for the topic at hand, I believe that there is a pretty good chance of life somewhere else, but more than likely it will be some unicellular organism. While I believe that the possibility is there, it is fantastically small, even given the large number of possible solar systems.

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--Jynx

"If it's not one thing, it's two."

quote:

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Originally posted by darksol:
back on the topic, cr0, do you really believe in that statement, or are you just fucking with us?

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I still contend that "life" as it is generally thought of is simply a human construct. For every possible definition of life there are counter examples i.e. stars, viruses (and it's viruses goddammit not 'virii'), or even galaxies or the universe itself. Perhaps the question should be "Are there entities other than humans that we could interact with in the universe?" and not "Is there other life/intelligent life in the universe?"

While I would argue that a star or a galaxy is alive, I wouldn't argue that I could sit down and have lunch with it.

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"Everyone's favorite implement for any task"
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quote:

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Originally posted by Jynx:
Uh, Keeps, what do you mean, "Life is easy"? Nothing could be further from the truth!

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Look at the fossil records. The earth is about 4.6 billion years old. The oldest rocks are about 4 billion years old, indicating 600 million years was the time it took for the surface to cool enough to form the crust. Simple prokaryotic life has existed as far back as 3.7 billion years, only 300 million years after there was a surface for life as we know it, which is relatively instantaneous. Primitive algae formed at this time.

However, it took until about 2.1 billion years ago, more than one and a half billion years, to form even eukaryotic life - single celled life with nuclei - even with a reliable sun and rather high radiation.

In comparison, it took 1.2 billion years to form stable continents in the Archean period of the Precambrian era, from 3.7-2.5 billion years ago. This is geological time we're dealing with.

It wasn't until about one billion years ago that we first start seeing multicellular life - more than a billion years after cells originally discovered the advantages of symbiosis by forming nuclei.

After that, it's all good. Exchanges of genetic material become far more prevalent, and life races through more and more complex species. After a couple million years of rudimentary tools in the stone age, human civilizations appear around 10,000 years ago.

So, because life appeared practically at the moment conditions became favorable, even just on this one planet, I say again: life is easy. Complex life is not, and it certainly took a great deal of mutation and radiation soaking to get where the rest of the world is right now, not even counting ourselves.

quote:

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Originally posted by Keeps:
What doesn't? Taking less than seven percent of the span of the earth's existance to hit on the right random chances to form life? Taking half the time it took just for the planet to cool down? I'm not saying you should be able to go to Walmart and create life in your basement, but life created itself about as soon as it could, creeping into every niche it could find.

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The odds of that happening on any given planet are absurdly small.

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"It's not peer pressure, its just your turn." - Unknown

quote:

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Originally posted by hyperponic:
The odds of that happening on any given planet are absurdly small.

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No, they're not. That's my point. We're one for one for life appearing practically instantly as soon as conditions were right for that kind of life. There's also no reason something completely different couldn't have appeared before the surface cooled just to be wiped out by changing conditions, or to believe that given more time something wouldn't have come to life. It wouldn't have been our life, but all life doesn't have to be water- and oxygen-based. And there's no reason to think it doesn't appear literally everywhere else. We have no evidence against it, and only circumstantial evidence for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by cr0bar:

While I would argue that a star or a galaxy is alive, I wouldn't argue that I could sit down and have lunch with it.

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Interesting. So, back to what I said about viruses: Are computer viruses alive? Are computers alive? Surely a computer is as well organized as a solar system (well, maybe not if it's running windoze, but..)

This message has been edited by Happyfish on September 27, 2000 at 09:35 PM

If you believed any of that, you're more gullible than I thought. :P

In all seriousness, Life is more of a concept than a concrete and definable word. So asking if there is life on other planets is rather useless. First we would have to see an example of the subject in question, then determine if it fits our concept of "life." If it does there is. If it doesn't we need to keep searching. That's all there is to it.

You'll never be able to prove that there is no life elsewhere in the universe, unless you visit and thoroughly explore every possible location in the universe, and in the time it would take you to do that, life could form at one of the locations you already visited. However, all it would take would be to find one life form outside of our own planet to prove that there is life elsewhere in the universe than our own planet. You can't argue with that, and since we have nothing to base the probabilities on, you can't say how high or low the chances of there being life on other planets are or aren't. That's a matter of personal belief, not science or reasoning.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

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But where is < Gamera >?

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Whats the point?