Topic: Welcome to america
started by: Wolfguard
Posted by Wolfguard on Jul. 12 2002,17:30
After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let aMuslim woman have her picture on her drivers license with her face
covered, one American has had enough.
This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa
Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he?
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this
nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their
culture.
Since the terrorist attacks on September 11, we have experienced a
surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from
the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began
complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is
seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost
entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our
country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of
American being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our
sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own
culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This
culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials and
victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.
We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any
other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn
the language!
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian,
right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men
and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
documented.
It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God
offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your
new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend
you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move
to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really
don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our
land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right
to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But
once you are done complaining, whining, and groping about our flag, our pledge, our
national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one
other great American freedom...
THE RIGHT TO LEAVE!
Posted by jim on Jul. 12 2002,17:32
| Quote (Wolfguard @ 12 July 2002,03:30) |
| After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her drivers license with her face covered, one American has had enough. |
That is fucking bullshit!!!
I'm creating a religion that requires men to wear hats in public at all times.
They better fucking let me wear my hat on my drivers license!
Posted by Wolfguard on Jul. 12 2002,17:34
i was more thinking along the lines of the fake nose and glasses but the hat works too...
Posted by demonk on Jul. 12 2002,18:06
I was agreeing with him until he pulled out that religion stuff, but other than that and the last part about "leaving", I agree with him. To stand up and say "love it or leave it" is kind of the chicken shit way out of it, for both parties. I think it should be "don't come here unless you are willing to adapt". The language issue has been pissing me off for a long, long, LONG time now. We get these people who have NO incentive to learn the language because the entire government panders to them. If you learn English, you don't suddently unlearn how to speak your native language. Think of it as learning a new skill: you don't lose an old skill. And then you can actuall COMMUNICATE with people outside your ethnic community! If an English speaking American moved to some country like Turkey or Brazil, you better believe that everyone there would expect that person to learn the native language! In most foriegn countries, if you can't speak the language, most people won't even TRY to be nice! While some may cry "but why should we sink to their level?" BECAUSE IT WILL FUCKING MAKE THE IMMIGRANTS LEARN TO SPEAK ENGLISH! I"m tired of my tax dollars being wasted on multilingual government documents in every possible language that might be out there! Learn the fucking language people! I don't expect you to get off the boat speaking perfect english with no acsent. But I do expect you to be making an effort to learn how to talk to 95% of the people in this country! I"m done now.
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 12 2002,18:44
amen
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 12 2002,19:42
| Quote (Wolfguard @ 12 July 2002,09:30) |
| I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom... THE RIGHT TO LEAVE! |
make me.
Posted by Nikita on Jul. 12 2002,19:44
I feel the same.Minus the "God is part of our culture" stuff (that seem to raise hell and a whole pack of worms in schools, etc . every other week).
As for learning languages in foreign countries - it's quite interesting. Sometimes I get to practice the foreign language, but most of the time the natives are practicing their english on me!
(as for some of the multilingual govt documents ... I doubt that some immigrants know enough english right off the boat/plane/teleporter. However you learn a lot when you talk to ppl outside your ethnic community)
Posted by Bozeman on Jul. 12 2002,20:55
I hate the "love it or leave it" attitude. I love this country, and people like me who see problems can make positive changes. If that seems "unamerican" to anyone, then perhaps they should re-define what they think "american" means.
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 12 2002,21:04
AMERICA MEANS WAVING FLAGS AND WATCHING FOX NEWS AND HATING FOREIGNERS!!!! AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE THAT YOU CAN LEAVE!!!
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 12 2002,21:39
Patrotism makes me puke-- and my sister and brother-in-law are both in the Army. Let me ask you something...did you people take out the american flags when they beat the crap out of Rodney King or shot Amadiou Diallo or sodomized Abner Louima? Does anyone give a shit that every day your basic civil liberties are eroded by the very ideals you people put out your flags to defend? You are supposed to be able to live without fear or retribution by politicians who seek to destroy your indivdualizm...we don't need some terrorist to destroy our basic freedoms and our lives we are doing that ourselves...think about it...I refuse to put out an American flag and kowtow to this country's obvious hypocricy. we are supposed to stand for freedom and liberty but we chastize anyone who wont put out a flag or sing the national anthem-- or worse yet refuse to say the pledge of allegience. Where in MY FREEDOM TO DO WHAT I WANT? to be liberal or communist- to be jewish, christian or muslim to be anything...where is my freedom to refuse to say the pledge, to burn the damn flag or to speak my mind even when no one agrees with me?
Patrotism is another excuse for opression of the unpopular thought---going agaisnt the grain...we stopped appreciating peoples individualism and started profiling them instead....
Yeah thats right Welcome to America- the land of Hypocrites and Oppression!
Yeah I dont love this country but I can be here and hate it and that is my damn right!
Posted by demonk on Jul. 12 2002,21:47
Wow. I think I'm in love 
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 12 2002,22:01
YOU STUPID FEMINAZI WHY DON'T YOU GO TO COMMIE CHINA OR SOMETHING? YOU FUCKING LIBERAL WHIGGER PINKOS MAKE ME SICK ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT YOUR RIGHTS. WELL LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING "SISTAH" WHO STARTED THIS COUNTRY? YES THAT'S RIGHT GOOD CHRISTIAN WHITE PEOPLE!!! AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO COME IN HERE AND TELLING US WHAT TO DO. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT HERE THEN LEAVE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO TO AFRICA SINCE YOU LOVE IT SO MUCH!!!!
Posted by jim on Jul. 12 2002,22:19
Ummmmmmm, a lot of you guys have some very skewed opinions on what is America.I don't remember the President say "Beat Rodney King".
I do however think that people that are unwilling to conform to American society should get the fuck out.
This "I'm a Muslum, I don't HAVE to abide by the laws of the rest of you people. My religion doesn't allow me to." bullshit is ridiculous.
We have teachers in Dallas that are being forced to learn and speak Spanish for a paticular hispanic sub division.
My mother who works for the University of Texas Arlington is FORCED to meet racial quotas in her acceptance letters to the school of nursing. She is given nothing but academic information, makes her recommendations, and if quotos aren't met. People get bumped into more deserving peoples spots...
And I certainly don't want to hear this "I'm Black, I'm poor, and that makes me deserving." shit. And what the hell, since I'm always the one to start some shit with il-reguard to anyone elses feelings. Why is it that Blacks never evolved into modern societies? Why is that Hispanics made it, Asians made it, Whites (Loose term for Europeans, Indians, etc..) all made it...
Yet we still have African tribes that just can't seem to do it.
People became educated, and science, literature, etc... all became parts of modern society. It came from somewhere, and I don't think it was aliens. So how come Africans missed the boat on this one?
/back on top
America is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from a perfect place. But if you know of some place better. FUCKING GO THERE!
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 12 2002,22:20
Darth you need some serious help. I was just trying to make a point. No need to flame me. If you don't agree with me you can make your point without putting me down. I am not a feminazi and I hate the implication of that. I am a feminist, every woman in the world today is a feminist. I have nothing against "good christian white men" but their point wasnt to be exclusive but rather to be inclusive-- "We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL men are created equal..." I think we can expand this concept to women, blacks, chinese, whatever----if you want this country to be filled with Christian white men and nothing more than you better wake up and smell the coffee my friend--- it aint like that and it will NEVER BE like that.And Jim- my point about Rodney King et al was that no one seemed to give patrotism a kick in the ass when all of that happened? Hell no we all turned a blind eye and ear to it.
As far as adaptation is concerned- is it not people's right to do what they want. Thats the whole point of this country- to be who and what you are without fear of pursecution. Some how this basic fact has slipped people's minds.
Another thing about quotas- I only hear about how affirmative action is a blight on society and never does anyone talk about a more important issue---Legacy- you realize that legacy programs are actually more hurtful to people than affirmative action is? You cant get into Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia without knowing someone---affirmative action only accounts for 10% of a total incoming class whereas in most Ivy league schools legacy of applicants accounts for almost 90% of the incoming class---
Posted by jim on Jul. 12 2002,22:23
I think he agrees with you and was being sarcastic. That's my guess anyway.
Posted by jim on Jul. 12 2002,22:28
and ps Chrissy. You aren't forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school.At least not in the 27 years I've been alive.
We had people who not only didn't say the pledge, but actually requested to leave the room while it was preformed.
But this fuck patriotism attitude you have, is certainly one that qualifies a "Get the fuck out" response from me... You have worse than no respect for your country, you obviously despise it.
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 12 2002,22:30
< 
>
Posted by jim on Jul. 12 2002,22:34
| Quote (Chrissy @ 12 July 2002,08:20) |
| Another thing about quotas- I only hear about how affirmative action is a blight on society and never does anyone talk about a more important issue---Legacy- you realize that legacy programs are actually more hurtful to people than affirmative action is? You cant get into Yale, Harvard, Princeton, Columbia without knowing someone---affirmative action only accounts for 10% of a total incoming class whereas in most Ivy league schools legacy of applicants accounts for almost 90% of the incoming class--- |
As far as I'm concerned, private schools should have the right to choose who is, and is not allowed into their schools.
And as far as I know, Affirmative action is required by schools. Although I'm not positive.
So if there was a private school that ONLY allowed Black people in, I'd be cool with that. Now if the government forced them to take in 10% white people. I'd be against that.
There are religious colleges that require you to take classes for that religion; nobody forces them to take in students who are not of that religion.
(note: I never went to college, and never plan to, some or all of my assumptions may be incorrect.)
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 12 2002,22:42
Its my right, nay my duty as an American to question the politics and erosion of our civil liberties in this country. If you take this country at face value you know what you end up with? NOTHING. You end up with political apathy and disinterest. I can hate this country for all its worth- I can hate Americans and I can hate the backstabbing political climate of this country and damn it thats my right!!You shouldn't judge me because our founding parents never would have judged me. In fact if anything they would stand by my RIGHT to do just what I am doing- Speaking my mind and living to tell about it. You people have so badly misconstrued what America is about that its gotten lost in the shuffle-- You think those terrorist bombed us because they like us? because we are the most inclusive nation in the world? Oh god are you dillusional or what...people hate America, hate Americans because they see that our Constitution and bill of rights is nothing more than parchment paper-- lets fucking wet it, wad it up and use it for toliet paper because basically thats what we are doing anyway. Its completley worthless because people in this country have no fucking idea what it means- what its about! We never learned the true meaning behind these important documents and why---because we like being oppressive and hypocritical of ourselves...we blamed the communtist for brainwashing---anyone here think we are any different?
You all have been brainwashed by patrotism-- real patrotism isnt raising the flag or paying your taxes--its using your RIGHTS as an American to hate this country, to speak your mind, to burn the flag, to vote etc---being patrotic has nothing to do with loving this country---but loving what it stands for and doing just what our founding parents would have done--questioned EVERYTHING
Posted by kuru on Jul. 12 2002,23:06
I cheer pretty loudly when the police get a dangerous person who's drunk and strung out on PCP off the street after he's led them on an 8 mile chase and attacked them.When their stun guns don't stop his attack, yes, I understand it if they take a club to him. Hell I'll encourage it.
I really wish people would quit acting like Rodney King is some kind of a saint. He's only a poster boy if you don't know the WHOLE story.
And Chrissy, real patriotism isn't 'saying that you hate this country'.
Real patriotism is doing something to make it better. You're talking a long streak, but what do you actually DO about the things you see as problems?
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 12 2002,23:12
I feel like I am defending myself- and so be it!You missed my point kuru- my point was that I have the RIGHT to hate this country if I want and thats what patriotisim is--the ablitity to use my rights as an American not just waving around a flag and saying I love this country. I dont hate America- there are some serious problems in this place --- You assumed that I hate America all I said is that its my right to hate it if I want to and to still live here. The attitude that I should "love it or leave it" makes me sick.
As far as what I am doing to change this country--- Im dont just sit idlely by while things happen to it. Im an involved citizen but my involvement in things does not need to justify my patriotism...or vice versa-- nor do I need to explain myself to anyone-- another great RIGHT of this country is my right to privacy...
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 12 2002,23:44
Welcome back, CK.<voice of experience>
I wasn't attacking you, I was poking fun at the Archie Bunker crowd.
chrissy, if you're going to be a good liberal - a noble cause, and one which I highly recommend, as I hope my nickname shows - you have to lighten up a bit. Otherwise people won't listen to you... in fact they'll tend to react the opposite way just to spite you
</voice of experience>
Now then.
What's interesting to me is that we have absolutely NO representation of the Florida DMV's side of things, and yet we're all too happy to use it as an excuse to engage in one of our favorite pasttimes, bashing foreigners.
Odds are that the DMV figured out that this bitch and her lawyer dogs were going to push this thing as far as they possibly could, forcing the State to defend itself. They would probably win in the end, but in the meantime this bitch would have wasted millions of dollars of taxpayer money and made a lot of progress towards making the State and the DMV look like the Big Bad Evil Anti-Religious Monolith... makes me wonder if Ralph Reed had his hands in it somehow.
Anyway, they figure that the chances of someone else going into furious attack-dog mode over this issue are slim to none...
So instead of fighting they said "fine, fuck you, wear your goddamn veil thingy and stfu kthx." Presto! They don't have to change their policy (and nothing has shown me that they did), but by making an exception the stupid bitch has no more case and isn't even interesting to the media except as someone to laugh at.
This kind of behavior is by no means limited to Muslims, foreigners, or women. Egotistical control freaks come from all walks of life, and everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame.
Now, if they changed their POLICY because of it, that's a slightly different story... but it reflects more on the incompetence of the Florida DMV than on the behavior of foreigners.
---
Brief note on the patriotism issue. Personally, I don't care much about The Flag. I never was much into symbolism or pep rallies. I love what America is supposed to stand for - freedom, independence, purple mountains majesty and golden waves of grain - but we've fallen short of the mark an awful lot lately. A lot of people know this, I guess, and they hope that by waving flags and shouting "under God" we're going to magically become a country that most of us can be proud of again.
It doesn't work that way. We need to start living up to the high standards we set for ourselves, and that's going to require a lot of people to swallow some very bitter pills.
One of those is that there is no one right way to be an American, and there never has been. Our country is built on the notion that a bunch of people with wildly differing beliefs can agree on a few basic ones and argue about the rest and still get along fairly well... "Honor Diversity" is not a new hippie bumper-sticker fad. We've always been about that, or at least tried to strive for it.
But since 9/11 we seem to be eating ourselves alive...
Posted by Necromancer on Jul. 12 2002,23:57
i enforce my rights as a british citizen to say i hate america too 
Posted by demonk on Jul. 13 2002,00:20
I knew there was a reason we shouldn't have bailed out Britian in WWII: all the Brits!
Posted by TheTaxMan on Jul. 13 2002,03:15
To say the least, that was a nauseating read...| Quote |
| Posted by WG, some time in the past: This Public Service Announcement is provided by WRC in conjunction with a concerned AMERICAN traveler. To receive further updated timely information please e-mail us at E-mail us at mailto:tenmenupfront@yahoo.com?SUBJECT=MoreInfo Please feel free to pass this on the other AMERICANS. This may be the most important email you ever read. At first, I thought it was embarrassing when a fellow airline passenger stood up and asked for other American men to join him in the front of the airplane. Maybe it was because I was with my family, I’m not sure why, but I didn’t get up. Only two guys went up to him. But he persisted. With help from the attendant he got ten men to sit in the aisle seats of the first five rows behind first class. I can’t say they looked like a pro football team but when they all shook hands something happened in that plane – something between those guys and something we all felt. We all became part of it. When people had to go up front to the washroom two of the guys escorted them. Only polite words were spoken. Then I realized what that something was. I realized I felt almost as safe flying as before 9/11 – I’m sure everybody felt it. And even though I didn’t volunteer, I switched to the aisle seat and I was ready behind those guys. We were back in control. When we touched down, people applauded not just their safe arrival, they applauded those ten guys. As we were leaving I saw more handshakes upfront. I wanted to thank that man who stood up and took charge. But he and the other guys were long gone by the time I got my family out of the plane. Maybe I’m writing this and the TEN-MEN Upfront document below because I didn’t get to shake that man’s hand, or maybe because I was afraid to volunteer to sit with those guys. But it’s past time for regrets. It’s time for action. So I ask you to stand up. I ask you to volunteer. I ask you to forward this email to everyone you know who travels by plane or bus or train. And ask them to forward it until, on every train, bus, and train, there are TEN MEN Upfront. TEN-MEN Up-front Hijack-Proofing For Airlines, Buses, Trains T – Take leadership. Tell attendant or driver you will organize “Ten men up-front (behind First Class) for added security.” (If request denied, ask to sit in front isle seat, organize men nearby.) E – Enlist ten (20 if two isles) able-bodied men to sit up-front for added security. N – Need American, British, or Hispanic accent. M – Make a NO-PASS ZONE by requesting isle seats in first five rows behind First Class (or front). E – Escort passengers in and out of the NO-PASS ZONE with two men. N – Neck and eyes: Use car key sticking out of fist knuckles, side of hand, or fingernails to attack neck and eyes of terrorist. When down, push your knee in his neck. Use pillows as shields. Again, please forward this email to everyone you know who travels by plane, train, or bus. We all have a role to play. Signed, A fellow passenger. So, I'll quote someone else online, this response is fantabulous. Read on! T - Take leadership. Remind everyone that you were Captain of the high school football team back in '64. Tell the attendant or driver you will organize “Ten men up-front (behind First Class) for added security.” When your request is denied and the pilot or driver threatens to have you arrested, call him a faggot and talk about "the good ol' days." Mention John Wayne and/or Ike Eisenhower. E - Enlist 10 other "big penised" men like yourself. Be sure to check penis length - MUST BE 12" MINIMUM OR NO TEN MEN UP FRONT HONOR FOR YOU. Conduct "Ten Men Up Front" operation anyway, despite legal threats. N - Need American, British, or Hispanic accent. In other words, need to not be one of them fucking sandniggers. M - Make a NO PASS zone and violate FAA law. Harass every passenger that tries to use the bathroom. Put picture of Hitler up on cabin wall. Sieg heil. O - Order the pilot to land near Graceland for a quick tour. Purchase Elvis plate, number 24 of a limited edition of 250,000. R - Radio silence. NO TALKING amongst the passengers to ensure no terrorist plots develop. Only "10 Men Up Front With Big Penises" may talk. O - Obturate freedom of religion. N - Now that you have decorum (and all the strong, American brethren up front were they belong), herd all them colored folk to the back of the Airbus. S – Smile. Remember that with each child you make cry, you put another stitch into the American dream. It just goes to show there's boundless retardedness in some people which is especially drawn out when they need to latch on to something in a time of crisis. Th-th th-th th-th th-that's all folks! |
So fitting...
As for the idiot that wrote the thing:
The writer may actually have had a decent point having to do with regulations and laws. However, like a fuckwit, he decided to say things like "good christian values" and "THE RIGHT TO LEAVE." The biggest problem with the country isn't the immigrants, it's the idiot good 'ol boys that think this is 1840. Repeat after me: We do not live in the Stone Age. The woman probably should have taken the veil off or not got a driver's lisence but for none of the listed reasons.
The only thing that was written in the editorial was, "I'm a hardy christian and everyone should bow down to me since there are more of my people than your people." The country was founded by the minority.
In closing, you stupid fucking good 'ol boys are what is holding the country back.
Oh, and it doesn't suprise me at all that this came out of Tampa. Land of the 1'st amendment ignoring and home of the attorneys that make plea bargains with sex offenders.
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 13 2002,04:12
Strangely, I hear people arguing one thing on one post and another thing in another (and pardon if this doesn't make sense, but I'm doped up on pain killers).Chrissy: you defend affirmative action, then vehemently quote the bill of rights saying "all men are created equal."
If we truly promote equality, then NO ONE should receive preferential treatment. Not the majority, not minorities.
Therefore, affirmative action is wrong.
I'm tired of hearing about reparations and such.
I never "held" anyone "down." If my ancestors were slavers (and I don't think that they were, but I'm not sure), that was thier mistake, not mine.
As for the language thing, if you want to become a productive member of society, then you should learn the language of that society. I agree that the gov't wastes far too much money on multiligual printings and schools waste too much money on education programs in different languages.
Don't get me wrong, ESL and dual-language instruction to transition students is fine, but teaching in another language the entire time doesn't help the students, it harms them.
People wonder why poor hispanics are stuck in a cycle of poverty. If they can't speak english, then they can't realistically hope to advance socioeconomically.
Basically, the radicals on both sides are wrong, conservative or liberal. The moderates are the only ones who can ever really hope to accomplish anything.
I've now lost my train of thought and feel the need to either vomit, pass out, or both. later
Posted by Dysorderia on Jul. 13 2002,05:33
| Quote (Wolfguard @ 12 July 2002,12:30) |
| After hearing that the state of Florida changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her drivers license with her face covered, one American has had enough. This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a Tampa Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he? IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on September 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand. This idea of American being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and groping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom... THE RIGHT TO LEAVE! |
such bad apples taint the world's vision of North America and just give the arabs more of an excuse to hate the US
Posted by Dysorderia on Jul. 13 2002,05:38
| Quote (Chrissy @ 12 July 2002,16:39) |
| Patrotism makes me puke-- and my sister and brother-in-law are both in the Army. Let me ask you something...did you people take out the american flags when they beat the crap out of Rodney King or shot Amadiou Diallo or sodomized Abner Louima? Does anyone give a shit that every day your basic civil liberties are eroded by the very ideals you people put out your flags to defend? You are supposed to be able to live without fear or retribution by politicians who seek to destroy your indivdualizm...we don't need some terrorist to destroy our basic freedoms and our lives we are doing that ourselves...think about it... I refuse to put out an American flag and kowtow to this country's obvious hypocricy. we are supposed to stand for freedom and liberty but we chastize anyone who wont put out a flag or sing the national anthem-- or worse yet refuse to say the pledge of allegience. Where in MY FREEDOM TO DO WHAT I WANT? to be liberal or communist- to be jewish, christian or muslim to be anything...where is my freedom to refuse to say the pledge, to burn the damn flag or to speak my mind even when no one agrees with me? Patrotism is another excuse for opression of the unpopular thought---going agaisnt the grain...we stopped appreciating peoples individualism and started profiling them instead.... Yeah thats right Welcome to America- the land of Hypocrites and Oppression! Yeah I dont love this country but I can be here and hate it and that is my damn right! |
Amen to that, Crissy
Posted by Dysorderia on Jul. 13 2002,14:39
| Quote (forumwhore @ 13 July 2002,01:26) |
| you hate where my parents grew up. and what do you get out of tha? Is it worth it? <image removed> |
for fuck's sake, stop posting so many damned large images FW.
Posted by TheTaxMan on Jul. 13 2002,15:17
As FW hijacks another thread...
Posted by forumwhore on Jul. 13 2002,17:12
That's weird. Image deleted.I deleted it from the front page and here it was.
Please resume normal posting.
Posted by veistran on Jul. 13 2002,19:09
I admit to just skimming this thing, but here's my words of reason. A drivers license is a privledge that you must earn to earn it you mus meet certain criteria, and pass certain tests. One of the requirements is that they are able to put a picture of you on the thing that shows reasonably what you look like. If they can relax the requirements for her, what's going to be next? Can my little brother claim discrimination because he's only 13 and can't get a drivers license?
Posted by Beastie Dr on Jul. 13 2002,22:12
| Quote (Chrissy @ 12 July 2002,15:39) |
| did you people take out the american flags when they beat the crap out of Rodney King or shot Amadiou Diallo or sodomized Abner Louima? |
I'd just like to say yes, I did.
Posted by Wolfguard on Jul. 14 2002,03:18
| Quote (veistran @ 13 July 2002,14:09) |
| A drivers license is a privledge that you must earn to earn it you mus meet certain criteria, and pass certain tests. One of the requirements is that they are able to put a picture of you on the thing that shows reasonably what you look like. |
Thank you! One of you see the light.
This is the big problem.
Look at it this way.
I get the law changed in fla to let this person get her drivers license pic taken with her face covered.
Now, How much easier has this document of identification become easier to forge?
I can be any one under the face covering up to and including Osama and no one would question it.
I have a question that is partialy fired by the JD in my blood tonight.
If they hate us so much why do they keep coming here?
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jul. 14 2002,04:32
because most of them don't hate us. They come here to get away from all the intolerant bullshit that goes on over there.I live in an area where there are a lot of Arab-Americans, so I am fortunate to get their point of view directly from them rather than the hyped-up version the news presents... sensationalism gets better ratings than real life.
Things Arabs said to me on 9/11:
"[lots of yelling in Arabic at the TV]... English is too polite of a language for these motherfuckers. These are the same guys that tried to kill my family when I was four... we had to make a run for it; we lost everything and now they're fucking coming HERE! FUCK YOU [more screaming in Arabic]" - this was a Muslim co-worker yelling to nobody in particular as he watched the TV with the rest of us.
"THESE ARE THE SAME FUCKUPS THAT KILLED MY GRANDMOTHER!!!! WE SHOULD COVER THEIR ENTIRE COUNTRY IN PIG'S BLOOD!" - a Muslim friend of my roommate.
"This is not Islam... this is the exact opposite... you don't kill for Islam. I prayed as soon as I saw what happened and I could feel how very angry Allah is... He is going to fuck those guys up like you wouldn't believe." - My friend who runs the local head shop.
(as the TV showed people dancing in the streets) (this was a long conversation, I'm paraphrasing) "The governments of all the Middle East countries only show the people what they want them to see... I would guess that right now they're not showing any of the death and pain caused by these explosions... telling them that these places housed some of Satan's army. Many people honestly believe that America is the home of Satan himself, that beasts and demons roam the streets forcing people to take drugs and rape and kill and drink blood... they are told these things by their leaders. Anyone who openly says otherwise is elminated one way or another... it is the same sort of thing that Hitler did." - my friend's cousin, who attended an Israeli university and hopes to return home and become a teacher when these fucks are overthrown.
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 14 2002,07:15
dsl has made an intelligent post for once! hell has frozen over! chrissy's still dumb, though.
Posted by forumwhore on Jul. 14 2002,07:20
a leetle bird told me this was crossposted on www.puce.com
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 14 2002,10:51
CK agrees with me on something? I thought the ground felt kind of cold today lol."Impressive! Most impressive. But you are not a Jedi yet." - Darth Vader
Posted by TheTaxMan on Jul. 14 2002,14:49
Since it's obvious that she shouldn't have been given a lisence, how do all of you agree with the rest of that (or at least the first 4 or so people who posted)? It's just inane rhetoric from a hillbilly (that probably has a corner office somewhere).
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 14 2002,17:54
I didn't totally agree with you there, DSL, but at least it wasn't a propoganda-spewing post like usual. I know a few arabs that are here in america to make a better life for themselves. The problem is that it is only a few. Most of them DO hate us. The minority is too threatened to really speak out, especially in iran.
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 14 2002,23:33
| Quote (Darth Liberus @ 12 July 2002,15:44) |
| <voice of experience> I wasn't attacking you, I was poking fun at the Archie Bunker crowd. chrissy, if you're going to be a good liberal - a noble cause, and one which I highly recommend, as I hope my nickname shows - you have to lighten up a bit. Otherwise people won't listen to you... in fact they'll tend to react the opposite way just to spite you </voice of experience> |
Sorry about that Darth- I realized it after Jim posted that....I wouldnt say I get offended easily but I do find myself defending my position an awful lot- especially these days. It's hard to speak "against" America and still be thought of as patriotic. My brother-in-law always tells me that I am the cause of shit like this. That "liberals" or as he likes to say "commies" are the reason why we got attacked in the first place. Actually I say its because of scum sucking capitalist greed that we were attacked. But no one listens.
After I wrote that last post I went home and thought about it. I was thinking that it's easy for people to say that they are patriotic and then give up all their basic rights and beat down people who try and uphold them. I was thinking that at my age (almost 24) there are very few people who truly, honestly understand what their place in society is, who understand the Constitution and what it stands for, and most importantly why we need to stand up for it. It occured to me that all people really care about is themselves and the more I thought about it the more sad I became. I don't want to live in a World like that, I don't want my children to live in a World like that.
Apathy breeds ignorance. And, in spite of what people say, ignorance is not bliss. It's high time we start looking at each other and supporting each other instead of beating down every Tom, Dick and Jane that disagrees with us. The World can only be a better place if we make it a better place.
I know I am an idealist. But in a lot of ways I am also a realist. I know realize that as long as America is the super power of the World- The World will never change.
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 14 2002,23:39
and p.s CK just a questionIs everyone who disagrees with you an idiot or a moron or something equally offensive? Just wondering because I will learn to ignore you from now on unless you can argue with a point someone has made instead of attacking them for making it.
Posted by Beastie Dr on Jul. 15 2002,00:27
| Quote (Chrissy @ 14 July 2002,17:39) |
| Is everyone who disagrees with you an idiot or a moron or something equally offensive? Just wondering because I will learn to ignore you from now on unless you can argue with a point someone has made instead of attacking them for making it. |
You have been here a very long time. You should learn by now that nobody else has any valid points, and he will ignore any evidence that disproves his. I'd say ignore him, but I'm certainly having more fun flaming him.
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 15 2002,05:29
I called you an idiot because your post is full of passion and emotion but there was apparantly zero thinking involved.| Quote |
| Actually I say its because of scum sucking capitalist greed that we were attacked. But no one listens. |
I hate to dissappoint you, but all of the september 11th hijackers were wealthy relatives/friends of the saudi royal family. usama bin laden himself is a multi-millionarre. No one listens because you are wrong.
| Quote |
| I was thinking that at my age (almost 24) there are very few people who truly, honestly understand what their place in society is |
and I guess it's your job to tell every single person what their place should be, right?
| Quote |
| Its my right, nay my duty as an American to question the politics and erosion of our civil liberties in this country. |
we have more civil rights and liberties then we have ever had before in the history of the country. what erosion are you talking about?
| Quote |
| I know realize that as long as America is the super power of the World- The World will never change. |
I pray, for everyone here, that it never does. I wonder, chrissy, what in the world would you want to change?
rather, what changes would you like to force upon people of the world?
Posted by forumwhore on Jul. 15 2002,05:52
Detnet Forums are the best.
Posted by Chrissy on Jul. 18 2002,22:53
| Quote (CatKnight @ 14 July 2002,21:29) |
| I pray, for everyone here, that it never does. I wonder, chrissy, what in the world would you want to change? rather, what changes would you like to force upon people of the world? |
CK, I don't want to force people to do anything. But what changes would I like to see happen?
Well for starters I'd like to see equality in the workforce. I'd like to see the end to racial profiling and racisim generally. I would like to see the world work together instead of against each other. I'd like to see the jobless get jobs, the homeless get homes, the under on uneducated get educated.
Listen, the status quo only works for 15%(more like 10%actually but I'll be generous) of the United States and even less than that in countries like Saudi Arabia and Afganistan. The world sucks for people who don't have money or who don't own land or have assests to the roof.
I'm saying- I know my life is a priviledged life. My college and law school education was not a right...I was lucky enough to have parents who had the money to send me to college and to law school. But because I was privileged in my life does not mean I need to see here and preserve it. I don't want to. I want to see the world be a better place, not the disaster it is now.
So CK, I wonder. Would you be singing the praises of society if you were ill-fortuned. If you mother was on welfare and you lived in ghetto? Do you think you would sit here and shout from the roof tops how great America is if everyday you saw your family starving from the raping of your country?
The problem with conservatives is that they never put themselves in anyone elses place. They just think "It aint me, let it be." Thinking like that keeps the country and this world just the way it is. And it makes me sad.
So maybe you and I will never see eye to eye on this CK and maybe you are happy with the way things are. But until this system stops working for you-- you won't sing another tune. And I hope for your sake that you never have to experience anything as trumatic as being homeless or unemployed because then you might have to bite your tongue and swallow your pride and admit maybe the world isnt such a great place.
Posted by ic0n0 on Jul. 18 2002,23:29
I have a right as an American to fucking complain and to attempt to change things if I don’t like them, deal with it. That is my fucking right as an AMERICAN, love it or leave it what kind of bull shit is that, that’s logically abused. Say I go into a restaurant and order food and I don’t enjoy that food but I love the restaurant so I continue to stay and do nothing about my shity food because I love the restaurant. That’s what love it or leave it basically means, no room for change or attempts at improvement. I agree about the English part, Americans need to speak one language if we are going to be one people, but we do not have to be culturally dogmatic. Saying America is perfect and needs no change is stupid and obviously not true, if you believe in change you have got to go in the love or leave it philosophy.
Posted by BlackFlag on Jul. 19 2002,01:00
America is a melting pot. We assimilate to new cultures, and they assimilate to us. Its a two way street.Some things should be non-negotable though. Driver's licences need to have an indentifiable picture on them. People here need to speak the fucking language. This is common fucking sense, not a patriotism issue.
As far as god in schools...... if "in god we trust" is good enough for every piece of currency coined/printed, its good enough for little Timmy/Jose/Pherake/Hassim. Just another excuse for athiest liberal extremests to get airtime on CNN.
Posted by forumwhore on Jul. 19 2002,01:12
/you will be assimilated/we are the Borg.
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 19 2002,02:25
| Quote (Chrissy @ 14 July 2002,15:33) |
| Sorry about that Darth- I realized it after Jim posted that....I wouldnt say I get offended easily but I do find myself defending my position an awful lot- especially these days. It's hard to speak "against" America and still be thought of as patriotic. My brother-in-law always tells me that I am the cause of shit like this. That "liberals" or as he likes to say "commies" are the reason why we got attacked in the first place. Actually I say its because of scum sucking capitalist greed that we were attacked. But no one listens. |
no problem, Chrissy. I know exactly what you mean... the mood in this country is not especially tolerant right now.
The only bumper sticker on my car reads IF THERE IS A DEVIL, HE VOTES REPUBLICAN. Since 9/11 I've had SEVERAL people get out of their cars at a stoplight and invite me to get my pussyboy faggot liberal communist ass out and FIGHT LIKE A MAN... which inevitably makes me burst out laughing, which just makes them more upset, which makes me laugh harder... one guy got so mad that he punched a dent in HIS car as I drove off!
Point being that in any population, there is always a group of extremelly stupid people who try to solve everything with belligerance and violence 'cause they're not bright enough to solve things with their minds.
(No, my conservative fellow members, I'm not talking about you. If you're bright enough to work a computer you're plenty smart in my book.)
As for why we got attacked... it's not because of capitalist greed. I'd guess that it's a combination of jealousy and propaganda. The people who flew the planes were the same kind of guys who jump out and challenge me at stoplights; their leaders are criminals who rape and pillage their own countries and need to divert attention from their actions.
The easiest way to do that is to blame someone else for the problems YOU created...
Remember, Chrissy - there ARE good, bright conservatives out there, but we liberals will always have the upper hand when it comes to our collective IQ
Posted by kuru on Jul. 19 2002,18:43
The problem with what Chrissy is talking about is that it's a good intention with horrible consequences.Equality of opportunity is a noble goal and it's what we should be working on, but what Chrissy's talking about is equality of outcome, and to attempt it is to damn yourself to failure.
If you were to say that because 60% of college freshmen are female, that females should be 60% of freshman engineers simply because in their current numbers it's indicative of 'inequality', you'd be guilty of mistaking equal opportunity for equal outcome.
If you then decided that you had to artificially adjust the numbers (by either denying acceptance to qualified men or enrolling women who are flat out not interested), you'd be trying to mandate equality of outcome.
That's a problem, because it ignores the free will of people. It can only be done under duress and force, and it leads to people so unhappy with their lives that they hate going to work and become unproductive. Sometimes what the well intentioned people (and there's a road paved with those intentions) see as institutional discrimination is actually the result of different people making different choices for their lives.
As long as the requirements are fair to the task and anyone who wants to try to measure up can, it's not unfair discrmination if more men prefer engineering and more women prefer nursing.
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 19 2002,19:08
| Quote |
| As for why we got attacked... it's not because of capitalist greed. I'd guess that it's a combination of jealousy and propaganda. The people who flew the planes were the same kind of guys who jump out and challenge me at stoplights; their leaders are criminals who rape and pillage their own countries and need to divert attention from their actions. |
< he has seen the light! >
Posted by Necromancer on Jul. 19 2002,19:13
indeed.for instance approx 90% of airline pilots are men not because of inequality but because thats the amount of men that apply. this stems from the fact that men have beter spatial awarenbss and such and so find it easier to do such a job. most women dont apply to jobs that arent suited for them biologically and we have feminists crying out that its sexism.
yeah sure lets force people to do a job that they aren't able to do.
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 19 2002,19:14
| Quote |
| So CK, I wonder. Would you be singing the praises of society if you were ill-fortuned. If you mother was on welfare and you lived in ghetto? Do you think you would sit here and shout from the roof tops how great America is if everyday you saw your family starving from the raping of your country? |
If my mom was a crack-addicted welfare mom who had more babies out of wedlock just to get a larger welfare check for more crack, then I would be blaming the liberal welfare system just as much as I would be now. If I was the son of a crack-whore mother but because I worked hard to improve my life ended up winning the nobel prize 30 years later, I would be thanking the system for giving me the freedom to fix my own life.
You can't force people to improve their own lives, they have to do it on their own. throwing money at them to encourage them to stay poor will ensure that they will never get out of the ghetto, and that they will always vote democrat.
Posted by kuru on Jul. 19 2002,19:17
Well, I grew up poor as shit and wondering about starving, and I still think that the welfare system is designed to keep poor people dependent upon the government so that they'll continue to vote for a bigger government that gives them more handouts.'Vote for us. We take care of you so you don't have to.'
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 19 2002,19:22
didn't i just say that
Posted by kuru on Jul. 19 2002,19:29
Yea. I agreed with you.Don't get too used to it though.
Posted by jim on Jul. 19 2002,19:30
Yep, I agree with CK this one time.My friends sister was on welfare with 3 kids.
She bought a bag of pot off me for $150 in food stamps...
(she lied and said I could buy cigarettes with it, bitch)
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 19 2002,19:33
hahahaha
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 19 2002,22:45
I have to admit I'm with CK and Kuru here. The current welfare system is broken.However, you'll never catch me saying "ah fuck it, let's just end welfare altogether."
The Workfare idea is a decent start. There is nothing wrong with saying "you want $$$ from The Man, you have to work like the rest of us." There's always work to be done - trees to be planted, garbage to be picked up, graffiti to be removed, etc. Things of that nature contribute greatly to society - who wants to live in filth? - so I don't mind my taxes being spent on them.
The existing welfare system should be scrapped, and the Workfare idea should be expanded. Make education an attractive alternative to sweeping streets... as in "as long as you go to college (or adult high school if you need to finish it) full time (6 hours/day for high school, 12 units for college), and you maintain a 2.5 or better, you don't have to scrape gum off the sidewalk."
Obviously, that makes education a sweeter deal than manual labor. That's the point - to encourage people to get educated so they'll WANT to get off Welfare. Nice thing about education is it makes people ambitious.
And while we're at it - if you want to stay on Welfare, you have to pee in a cup, and if you're hot you have the choice of rehab (recommended) or jail. Make sure alcohol is included in that test. Welfare is a way for people to turn their lives around, not a giant party at taxpayer expense.
Chrissy, your heart is in the right place, and I'm all for compassion and understanding in politics... don't think I'm saying we should give in to the assholes. The poor do need help, and I'm certainly not willing to let them starve in the streets. But they really, really need to learn how to help themselves, and that means Welfare has to work like a parent/teacher. Good parents and teachers make you do your chores, they make you study hard, they explain what you did wrong when you screw up and then kick your ass for it.
I despise the right wing... I'm not impressed with the politics of the left, either. Middle of the road is boring. The direction of good liberalism is up lol
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 19 2002,23:53
ahh, good old "up", the last bastion of political orthogonality
Posted by ic0n0 on Jul. 20 2002,01:30
I agree with whats been said, the many poor people remain poor because of current system of government handouts, no need to improve etc. But to just stop it outright will cause more problems with the kids of those Leeches. I don’t have answer, but if we cut off all government support we are going to really fuckup a generation of kids.
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jul. 20 2002,02:33
I can't believe I just posted something about what liberalism means and CK didn't bash the shit out of me... what's the temperature in Hell today?Of course, I also think CK understands things much better than he lets on; I'd say he's playing the same exact game that Rush Limbaugh does.
At some point you ought to join us, CK... the people you really want to reach don't listen to conservatives, only react against them. On the other hand, if you announce that you're a physicist and a liberal they'll be all ears... calling yourself a "liberal" these days is so ballsy that it stuns them into submission, then you hit their politically correct b.s. with
"that's not liberalism - liberalism is about individuality, freedom, tolerance, contemplating many different ideas and having enough brains to suspend judgement on things until you have enough evidence to make a fair decision... and keeping a sense of humor about it all so you don't shove your head too far up your ass. <pointing to chest>I am a liberal. <sneer> You're just a leftist."
They think real hard about that one
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 20 2002,06:52
hey ic0n0, would you consider bush's welfare reform plan? that is to give benefits to those families who stay together, have short (1-2 year) limits on pure welfare, and the gradual welfare/income withdrawl?dsl--outside of campus the only liberal physicists i know of are the ones who came up with that bunk global warming data. and if that is your definition of what you think you are, then you would be a conservative (or possibly a liberal from a few decades ago).
Posted by TheTaxMan on Jul. 20 2002,07:43
Hahahahahaha!Global Warming is not a myth.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jul. 20 2002,12:48
You're right about my form of liberalism having its roots in the old school. I learned it at the knees of Daddy and Granddaddy Liberus, both of whom warned me repeatedly to be very skeptical of the Left as well as the Right."the Left destroyed all that was good and true about liberalism... they sold out the human race for a bunch of whales." - Daddy Liberus
"Fuck the left, dad. They don't get to take over our philosophy. This is bullshit. Thanks to them, liberal is a bad word right now... well, good. Great. Bring it on. Every time a person bashes me for being a 'liberal' it's another chance to explain what liberalism is supposed to mean and encourage people to live up to it. I'm not going to cave in and call myself some pansy-ass name like 'progressive' or 'independent' or 'conservative' because of a bunch of stupid whales... I am a LIBERAL with TEETH and CLAWS and a THIRST FOR BLOOD!" - Me, borrowing a little bit from James Carville and a lot from Hunter S. Thompson
Yep, gotta bring back the old school...
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 20 2002,17:11
| Quote (TheTaxMan @ 20 July 2002,02:43) |
| Hahahahahaha! Global Warming is not a myth. |
did I say global warming was just a myth?
Posted by ic0n0 on Jul. 20 2002,18:13
| Quote (CatKnight @ 19 July 2002,16:52) |
| hey ic0n0, would you consider bush's welfare reform plan? that is to give benefits to those families who stay together, have short (1-2 year) limits on pure welfare, and the gradual welfare/income withdrawl? dsl--outside of campus the only liberal physicists i know of are the ones who came up with that bunk global warming data. and if that is your definition of what you think you are, then you would be a conservative (or possibly a liberal from a few decades ago). |
Yes, families that stay together (provided there are no abusive parents) are better for the kids. A gradual welfare reduction would be better then doing it all at once. Although i do think there needs to be a basic simple government program to help people down on their luck, for lack of a better name call it unemployment+.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jul. 22 2002,00:14
I think TheTaxMan was referring to Hell freezing over lol
Posted by CatKnight on Jul. 22 2002,01:59
i think unemployment benefits for ~3 months, with a max of 6 months in 3 years or something is fine.
Posted by Estërion on Jul. 22 2002,02:38
| Quote (jim @ 12 July 2002,14:19) |
| And I certainly don't want to hear this "I'm Black, I'm poor, and that makes me deserving." shit. And what the hell, since I'm always the one to start some shit with il-reguard to anyone elses feelings. Why is it that Blacks never evolved into modern societies? Why is that Hispanics made it, Asians made it, Whites (Loose term for Europeans, Indians, etc..) all made it... Yet we still have African tribes that just can't seem to do it. People became educated, and science, literature, etc... all became parts of modern society. It came from somewhere, and I don't think it was aliens. So how come Africans missed the boat on this one? /back on top America is faaaaaaaaaaaaaar from a perfect place. But if you know of some place better. FUCKING GO THERE! |
sorry, I haven't read all the posts to this thread, but I felt Ihad to give my opinion on this particular subject(not the main subject either).
The main reason for society's evolution are geographical. I'd say that's what happened with Africa/Australia(I know that's not the official name of the continent) vs Europe/Asia. America was sort of in the middle. You have to count factors like predators, tameable animals(I meant animals that can be tamed, not sure if the word is correct), good soil for agriculture, etc, etc,etc.