Ikonboard » Printable Version of Topic » Make Up Your Mind, Liberals!

Forum: Politics
Topic: Make Up Your Mind, Liberals!
started by: CatKnight

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 12 2002,21:29

so the liberals embark on a huge media campaign to blame bush for knowing about september 11th and not doing anything about it. then they scream in our faces for reform to the FBI and CIA. then they scream that this reform is infringing on our constitutional rights. now we happen to catch a guy, and they are screaming to treat him as a citizen and not a soldier, and want a free trial, etc, at the expense of national secuity. you just know that if we did nothing, then the liberals would be screaming that we didn't do anything about preventing terrorists. so which is it, liberals? make up your mind! or are you just too happy bashing bush and republicans just for the hell of it?

Posted by demonk on Jun. 12 2002,23:26

Do you feel better CK? I know that sometime just screaming at the top of my lungs really helps me get rid of some anger. I hope that post helped to relieve some of your pentup anger.

Posted by Necromancer on Jun. 13 2002,00:01

Welcome to the wonderful world of the spindoctor CK surprising as yo umay find it ALL political parties have them...and yes that means even the republicans.

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 13 2002,00:18

demonk your post should be deleted. necromancer, yours is very borderline.

may i remind you guys that this forum is for political discussion, NOT flaming.

Posted by Necromancer on Jun. 13 2002,00:25

excuse me but my post isnt a flame its a fact your post came across just like i said, its just the usual spin that political parties come up with. They just try to slander the opposition instead of actually doing something productive.

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 13 2002,00:42

ok if you think my post was complete political bs, you should be able to easily refute it without resorting to flames, shouldn't you?

Posted by Necromancer on Jun. 13 2002,00:47

i dont see how i cant put some witty sarcasm in for good measure and have it proclaimed as flaming. Your need for always trying to blame people for flaming you instead of just letting it go is what always holds the discussion up in here. Think of it as a flame if you want, i dont.

Posted by Dysorderia on Jun. 13 2002,01:24

Quote (CatKnight @ 12 June 2002,19:42)

ok if you think my post was complete political bs, you should be able to easily refute it without resorting to flames, shouldn't you?

that's the point, CK, he didn't flame you

Posted by Dysorderia on Jun. 13 2002,01:27

Quote (CatKnight @ 12 June 2002,16:29)

must you always bash the liberals CK?
it gets old after the 100th time doing it...

Posted by editor on Jun. 13 2002,01:28

puce.com is begging for flames, why not export some there?

CK, I admire your new attitude, but they are not flaming imho.
Dys, I invoked your name over there...

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 13 2002,02:30

i was just trying to start more debates. if no one wants to debate, or even argue, then why do they post here at all?

Posted by editor on Jun. 13 2002,02:31

If you mean your thread, I don't know.

If you mean Detnet,
to exchange ideas and information and experiences...

and links

Posted by Dysorderia on Jun. 13 2002,03:31

Quote (CatKnight @ 12 June 2002,21:30)

i was just trying to start more debates. if no one wants to debate, or even argue, then why do they post here at all?

starting debates by bashing a political group isn't a course of action that'll make anything but a weak debate.(yes, i know that you aren't the only one who's done this)

Posted by Bozeman on Jun. 13 2002,03:51

I'm confused. Should we not care that a person's rights are being violated, or should we not care that the Bush administration dropped the ball?

Honestly, I can see no conflict in wanting a more effective yet less invasive system. I also see no problem with actually charging someone with a crime before detaining them. The dirty bomber's lawyer is trying to get him off because he's been held so long with no formal charges. His rights are violated. Why is it wrong to get angry? If they can do it to him, they might do it to me.

Posted by chmod on Jun. 13 2002,13:42

Dys, if you or anyone else doesn't have anything relevant to contribute to the debate and just want to criticize CK, you shouldn't be posting in this topic at all. Simple as that.

Anyways... I don't think the terrorist attacks was really something that any administration could have prevented, judging from the situation of the intelligence system, etc., and there is really no point in bitching about it after the fact because it's not going to change what happened.

CK, don't you realize that it's disturbing to see someone designated as an American citizen being held with disregard for habeas corpus? It doesn't make me feel like they are threatening my rights but it just seems hypocritical to come up with different standards of treatment for the same people called citizens, even if they claim to have justification for it.

Posted by lykosis on Jun. 13 2002,18:28

from what i've seen...most politicians are better at pointing fingers than solving problems...i don't care what party they belong to, what church they go to, or who's contributing to their campaign.

but, it was the democrats that cut military spending while increasing military action...

but, it is the republicans that are trying to play funny games with our constitution...(not that the demcrats havnt tried to do the same)

i see plenty of blame to go around...but politics seems to more about making the other guy look bad...and covering your own ass. pretty pathetic, in my opinion.

Posted by kuru on Jun. 13 2002,18:41

At this point, we need to take a lesson from our friends in the Far East.

Yes, Japan.

Japanese custom after a horrendous fuckup (and the handling of information prior to 11 Sept. was a horrendous fuckup) is not to rake the mud looking for someone to affix blame to.

We now know there is a serious problem with the handling of information in the FBI and CIA. We also know that there are agents in the FBI who have refused to carry out duties in investigating certain people because of their religious affiliations. There are nearly 3,000 people dead already because of these severe errors in national security.

Instead of finding someone to blame for these serious errors, smothering them with mud and then hanging them out to dry, our efforts need to be concentrated on fixing the problems.

This is not to say that if someone is guilty of misconduct they should get away with it, just that we need to apply more effort to fixing the FBI and CIA so that there are no further horrendus fuckups than we do in finding a whipping boy in some closet at a branch office somewhere whose career can be scuttled in front of millions of TV viewers just to make people feel good.

We must also be sure that anyone who may have made a mistake feels secure in coming forward with that mistake so that it will not be repeated, instead of burying it under the carpet and hoping nobody notices as they continue to make mistakes.

Time to put it on the table, all of it, without affixing blame, find out what exactly went wrong, why it did, and repair it.

Posted by lykosis on Jun. 13 2002,18:50

sorry, logic has no place in american politics. can you come up with something better (costs more)?

Posted by kuru on Jun. 13 2002,19:25

Remove everyone from office and start over?

Posted by Wolfguard on Jun. 13 2002,19:29

why do you think goverment wants our guns?

This country was founded with blood and bullets the first time...

Posted by lykosis on Jun. 13 2002,19:43

aye...same reason the govt wants to have it's hands in every little thing...it's all about dependency and control.

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 13 2002,19:47

Quote

CK, don't you realize that it's disturbing to see someone designated as an American citizen being held with disregard for habeas corpus? It doesn't make me feel like they are threatening my rights but it just seems hypocritical to come up with different standards of treatment for the same people called citizens, even if they claim to have justification for it.

actually there is precidence going back to before world war 1 regarding this issue. if someone enters the country in stealth with the intent to commit sabotage of some sort in the name of another organization, then it is classified as a war crime, regardless of the person's citizenship.

during world war 2, 8 germans tried to infiltrate the united states to sabotage factories. they arrived on long island via u-boats. 2 of them were actual us citizens. they were caught and tried, and 2 of them executed. one of those executed was one of the us citizens.

Posted by lykosis on Jun. 13 2002,19:57

yes, but they were CHARGED, and they were put on trial...
and i think the argument that he is presenting is that you shouldn't be allowed to hold someone without formally CHARGING them with something.

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 13 2002,20:05

oh i forgot to add that they were tried in a military tribunal.

as for actually charging pedios, that is not the justice department's objective. right now, they want to get whatever information they can from him, like who was planning the attack, when it could happen, etc. that is why they are holding him.

and my point is, if they let him go, the liberals would scream at republicans for not preventing a terrorist attack. if we do hold him, they scream we are violating his rights.

Posted by lykosis on Jun. 13 2002,20:39

yeah...everything is pretty much a catch 22 in politics.

Posted by kuru on Jun. 13 2002,20:51

1.) His name is Jose Padilla.

2.) Six of the eight German saboteurs were executed in the 1942 case. The SC ruled on it in Quinn ex Parte.

3.) People can be held without civilian charge in a military brig if they are suspected of actions that represent a 'clear and present danger'.

Wolf: You're right. This country and all its freedoms were born out of bloodshed against tyranny.

If Patrick Henry, Nathan Hale, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Alexander Hamilton, John Jay, James Madison and Thomas Paine were alive today, odds are pretty good they'd be holed up in a compound in Montana and CNN would call them separatist kooks. Their ideas would today be considered by those in office to be too radical. And that's a definite sign that we citizens better start fighting to get our country back.

Posted by lykosis on Jun. 13 2002,22:19

"if you live by the sword...you die by the sword"
nice and famous quote, but it fails to mention that you don't actually have to live by the sword to die by the sword...and myself, i would just assume die with my sword in hand.

i have yet to see a convincing (truth laden) argument for gun control.

Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 13 2002,23:24

when did everyone suddenly start agreeing with me?

with the germans story, i think i meant all but 2, not just 2.

Posted by rit on Jun. 14 2002,00:21

i agree with you. on this topic anyway.

Posted by Necromancer on Jun. 14 2002,00:30

i just dont want my country taking on yet ANOTHER american custom and therefore need gun control. I have come to decide that america can have its guns so long as it fucking keeps them there... that is all