Topic: State of the United States.
started by: Wolfguard
Posted by Wolfguard on May 23 2002,15:54
I have been watching the US go to hell for quite some time. Its to the point now where nothing shocks me anymore. I do have to point fingers at a group of people for what will be the down fall of this great nation.Parents.
Parents, your children are out of control. There is a total lack of respect for anything from these little bastards. The parents in this country are afraid to do anything to these little brats because the little brats know they can call child welfare. This is an 800 lb gorilla that has to much power because a few parents thought it was wrong that the neighbors spanked their kids.
What has this got us? This has got us a bunch of children that are killing each other in our schools. A bunch of children that don’t listen to their parents because there are no consequences for not following orders. A bunch of children that basically don’t have enough sense not to pee on an electrical outlet.
What can we do? Parents, punish your children. None of this touchy feely “time out” crap, it does not work. When they are young put them over your knee. When they act up in a public place punish them on the spot. (you will get cheers for this) When they are older, ground them and send them to their room AFTER you pull the power breaker and removed anything that runs on batteries. If they want to call child services dial the number and hand them the phone. Tell them that you hope they enjoy foster care and the nightmares that they heard about on the nightly news. Teach your children right from wrong and make sure they dam well know that disobeying you is WRONG. Make sure that when they are thinking of doing something one of those thoughts is, “What will my parents do to me when they find out?”
Get the laws changed. Child abuse is wrong but I should be able to punish my child without being seen as Hitler. If I grab my out of control, screaming child and swat it on the bottom I should not have to worry about the police taking me away. If I smack my child with an open hand due to some filth that came out of its mouth I should not have to worry about a jail sentence or people coming into my house and telling me its wrong to enforce discipline and taking my child, or both. If I beat my child with a closed fist or heavy object that is child abuse. If my kids have big marks on their bodies and broken bones all the time then come and shoot me.
You are the parent. You should be loved and feared by your children. The statement, “Wait till your father gets home.” should fill them with dread. Doctor Spock should be nailed to a cross because his ideas are not working and were the start of this downfall.
Posted by Anztac on May 23 2002,16:12
I don't think I've turned out badly. I have utter respect for my father, but I don't think he ever spanked me more then once or twice. I mean, just seeing him angry is a rarity. My father doesn't try to dictate my life, but he does support almost any volition I have. I love him for it, and I haven't made any exceptionally bad choices I don't believe, but that remains to be seen. I basically do what I think my dad would want me to do anyways alot of the time because I respect him, and I wouldn't want him to think poorly of me. Like if I'm in a stituation I think "What would my dad think of this if I did it?" Not "What would he do if he found out?" or something like that.
I'm not sure what evlolved my family into this state, but when I look at how my friends parents treat their children I don't quite understand how my friends turned out so well.
Posted by Necromancer on May 23 2002,16:27
no complaints here.
Posted by kuru on May 23 2002,16:45
Caveat to Wolf's post (which I agree with 100%) is another term the citizens of the United States need to learn.Pesonal Responsibility.
I've watched this entire society turn into a 'Wag the Dog' pile of crap and murk that has been contributing to the unending downward spiral.
The 'it's someone else's fault' mentality has GOT TO GO. No more 'the devil made me do it' or 'it's all the fault of television'. Come on people. We are all autonomous beings.
The time has long passed that we ALL start acting like it. This 'government as babysitter' crap is NOT WORKING.
Posted by demonk on May 23 2002,17:27
Ya, I have watched the "pass the buck" aditude of our country since I was little and always wondered "how does running into a building and shooting a bunch a people you don't even know a movie's fault?". I don't know how bad my generation is or my grandparent's generations, but I do know that my parent's generation (baby boomers) are really bad about this. I don't know how this happened, but they seem to have the additude that if something bad happened, someone has to be blamed, and it isn't the person who did the bad thing. Terrorists fly planes into the WTC, let's blame the FBI for not knowning about it or knowing about it and not doing anything in time. This country needs a desperate dose of Personal Responsibility. I pledge, right here and right now, that I will take personal repsonsibility for everyone one of my actions, both good and bad, even if I am too drunk to remember. Who's with me?
Posted by Wolfguard on May 23 2002,17:34
| Quote |
| Pesonal Responsibility. |
Thats my next rant
Posted by Dysorderia on May 23 2002,17:43
All this shit starts when some idiot says "think of the children" or some equally mindless crap.
Posted by ic0n0 on May 23 2002,17:43
I think that corporal punishment is alive and well in the United States wolf, I think you may live in the wrong area and are not in contact with the people who do use it. Growing up in the 80’s and early 90’s I did see a good deal of corporal punishment on friends of mind (never me I was always good) I do not think it is wrong but it is hard to determine where the line is between good parenting and child abuse is located, I understand where your coming from and I do think 90% of what your saying is justified but I think that you might be suffering from “things were better in the old days syndrome”. Personal responsibility is fine but since when is it ok to charge a 15 year old as an adult? I know you didn’t mention this but it does seem to be common now to charge young teens as adults and that really bothers me, some of these kids have committed horrible crimes but they are not adults, send them to a harsh juvenile center where discipline and personal responsibility are taught, hell even send them to a military run center. What I am getting at is that I do not think the majority of kids are as bad as you Claim, I do see many that are and I hope they get a harsh taste of life before it’s too late but I do not think most children are as bad as you say.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on May 23 2002,19:34
I would like thank everyone for not blaming all of this on the liberals... hasn't happened yet, anyway and before anyone starts, both of my parents have always been flaming liberals, and they never had any problem disciplining me.i was never spanked or slapped, but when I fucked up I knew it... for example, if I started screaming in the supermarket, momma marched my ass outside and told me very cooly "you can cry as much as you want, but we aren't going home until I'm done shopping. The longer you cry, the longer it will take." Then she'd sit there and glare at me until I was done... and when I was, she'd drag my ass back inside and continue shopping.
If I flipped out again, same thing would happen. I got the point pretty quickly
That, by the way, is classic Dr. Spock parenting; my momma swore by it and still does. Discipline was straight to the point : here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you're punishment is, here's the conditions you need to meet to get out of trouble. The parent then stands firm on the punishment and ignores the child's further whining and protesting rather than trying to punish the child further. That way kids learn to calm themselves down (basic anger management), and they learn that bad behavior is not going to get their parent's attention.
and i sure as hell didn't get every single little thing I wanted just by whining. I had the fewest toys of any kid in the neighborhood; I didn't get anything unless my parents could see some educational value in it. Which meant that while other kids were getting Super Air Blasters and getting bored with them two days later, I was getting Legos and chemistry kits.
My TV time was limited as well; I only got an hour after school to watch what I wanted.
And no, I didn't mind. The only problem I had was that other kids seemed kind of boring to me; all they ever wanted to do was talk about their lame toys (and ALL toys are lame compared to Legos) or sit on their ass and watch TV. I actually had a well-developed imagination, and when you're a kid a good imagination is way cooler gift than a Super Air Blaster, although you aren't aware of it at the time... while my friends watched GI Joe (same show every episode), I was out in the back yard making executing any snail that displeased me, down at the creek trying to dam it up so I could sail around on my new lake, or figuring out what I was going to do when I became president.
I think the point I'm making here is that unlike a lot of kids, I actually had real parents who raised a child, rather than just keeping one around for decoration...
Posted by DuSTman on May 23 2002,22:00
As a child I never got into much trouble at all, but one thing I did was fight with my sister.. A lot..Some of the times when we fought particularly viciously (read: when I won) mum would spank me for it.
Now, the thing is, that didn't make me less likely to fight with my sister. Not in the slightest. I'd fight with her and *then* I'd worry about being punished for it.
I do think that in certain respects society is too soft now, but from my own memory of childhood, I really don't think spanking was actually an effective way of altering my behavioral patterns.
Posted by BlackFlag on May 23 2002,22:43
I think some people are just born fucked up. Good parents (or otherwise growing up in a good environment) can cancel out some of their genetic predisposition for evil, but sometimes it can't. Timothy McVeigh had (for the most part) a good family, and a good upbringing. He was just too much of an idealist by nature, and idealism can get twisted by the way the world is today.
Posted by Bob_the_Cannibal on May 24 2002,00:10
[ moved to another thread by dsl to keep this one on topic ]
Posted by Wiley on May 24 2002,17:20
If I hear one more parent say their kid has ADD or ADHD I'm going to flip out. Maybe why little Timmy is climbing up the walls and knocking things off shelves is because you never pay any attention to him and your out being parents with careers! You wanted to breed then take some responsability for what you created. Don't just look to some combination of drugs to keep them sedated enough that you don't have to deal with them. I think that when a kid is not in school they should have a parent (not a nanny or day-care provider) supervise them until they are at least mental mature enough to function on their own. And at that time, when they can reasonably express what is going on in their heads it can be determined if they have a chemical imbalance that needs to be treated. It bothers me that 1/2 the 6 year olds out there are on some sort of medication for a behavior problem that most likely doesn't exist.
Posted by Jynx on May 24 2002,20:41
I admit, this thread is fascinating, and the main reason is because my first son is now 18 months old. It's very easy to say "parents must do this, parents must do that", but it feels much different when you are that parent.Wolf: I agree with your sentiments; however, it's also important to realize that the punishment must fit the crime, and that different kids respond differently to the same punishment. My wife's sister has two boys, and she and her husband have found that while one responds well to stern lecturing and, when necessary, a swat or two, the other only laughs, and only responds well when he is cut off from the rest of the family, a.k.a. sent to his room for, say, 5 minutes. The point: One Punishment Fits All doesn't work -- parents need to learn, and use (but not abuse) their kids' hot-spots.
Kuru: yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. We're trying to teach that even now.
Wiley: amen, hallelujia. It's actually really interesting--sometimes, my son acts like he has ADD or ADHD (yes, even at his young age). The simple truth is that what he's doing is trying to get some attention, and as soon as he gets it, he's an angel. Plus, here's another thing - he loves books, and will even now sit down with a book and "read" it for a surprising amount of time. Another thing - he'll act for all the world like he has the Ultimate 2-Second Attention Span, but he remembers stuff. He remembers where a candy dish sits at a friends house, and he hasn't been there for 4 months! I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's my guess that many those kids with "ADHD" suffer more from parents who can't take the time out of their busy schedules to pay some attention to thier kids, ever. So, instead of treating the problem, and taking on the responsibility of parenthood, they drug their kids into little vegetables, and then can't figure out why these damaged children can't pass 4th grade tests at 17.
One last point, I promise: if you're gonna have kids, then for crying out loud, have one parent stay home full-time. People seem to think that this is impossible, but it's far from. I'm supporting my family and my 19-year old nephew (temporarily, I hope) on my salary alone. Those parents who say that they need two salaries are just too selfish to give up their current lifestyle. Well, guess what--YOU NEED TO. If you can't support having one parent home with the child, then you are not ready for kids yet. Period.
k, i'll shut up now.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on May 24 2002,22:47
| Quote (Jynx @ 24 May 2002,12:41) |
| k, i'll shut up now. |
no, don't! we need your wise opinions!!!
as for one parent staying at home - that is damn good advice. Kids don't need you to be rich; they need you.
I know that in some areas (including my beloved San Francisco), it's really hard to get by on a single income. But there are alternatives to both parents working full time, such as :
1. One parent working full time, the other working part time during school hours. Daycare sucks... remember, you're putting your child in hands of someone who makes a whopping 11 bucks an hour!
2. Don't be afraid of the extended family! The nuclear family was the ideal for a long time, but the idea sucked all along. Children need a lot of personal attention. Grandparents, especially, make an amazing resource... and remember that they're gonna treat their grandkids much better than they treated you. Grandkids leave at the end of the day. You didn't
3. Neglect is the #1 cause of behavior problems and learning disorders. Drugs can't change that.
::sigh:: when I was a kid, I had almost all the symptoms of ADD... never paying attention, staring out the window, doodling on my desk, etc. Back then, though, ADD was almost unheard of... they just figured I was bored. So they put me in the gifted and talented program. End of problem.
And while I grew up in what might look like your typical 50's-era nuclear family (dad worked, mom stayed home), I actually spent a *lot* of time with my grandparents when I was little... my mom pawned me off on them a lot so she could play tennis in peace, lol. I can't even begin to explain all of the things I learned from good ol' gramma & grandpa. And I'm quite sure that my mom and I got along a lot better simply because she still got to have some time for herself.
Here's an interesting question... I often have this eerie feeling that my biggest problem is that my upbringing was so damn good... as if it's become such a rare thing that no one believes that you're trustworthy unless you have all kinds of personal problems... or is it jealousy? I have no idea.
As for personal responsibility... yes, I agree. I was raised to take responsibility for my own actions. What bothers me is how easily people point the finger at others and say "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!" without bothering to look in the goddamn mirror.
Posted by cycodzzy on Jun. 04 2002,04:02
JUST TO CLARIFY ADD AND ADHDi was diagnosed with add.and yes you do have problems in life because of it.but that is not an excuse!its a condition.they tryed druges in my younger years in school and let me tell it is the worst feeling ive ever had.to best discribe it i felt like a zombie.thank god. my father didnt belive in drugs and i was only on them for a few years.
my mother was working in the day while i was at school.and home at night to take care of me.my upbringing was a little of what all of you have said.they were pasive on the small things and if i really screwed up (4-5times) i would get a spanking..
ADD OR ADHD does not have anything to do with your morals or how bad a kid you might be because of it.you will turn out the way your going to due to your parents and you.how ever much you decide to achieve in this world is by your hands alone.
i cant say what the best parenting teqneques are im not a parent yet.but i can say this.im very close to owning my own business and have very a high integrity in myself.i always try to do the right thing.so my parents must have done somthing right.
i think people try to use add or adhd as an exuse of why they cant achive something, or why they done somthing wrong.
again just to set the record straight thats not a reason its an exuse.it makes me mad when i talk to these sort of people.
having the condtion. i know whats possible when i set my mind to it.
thanks for hearing me (if you care)
Posted by kuru on Jun. 04 2002,12:06
And this is why kuru will never have kids.Because there's no way in hell I'd give up my life, stay home, and pay the kind of attention necessary to actually deal with a kid.
In all honesty, it would destroy everything that makes me who I am to be stuck in a house with a smelly dirty little thing that can't understand a freakin word of what I say.
Stay at home parenthood is a wonderful idea, but it does jack for the mental stimulation of the person who's constantly at home with little to no adult interaction of any kind.
Which is why the people who need that kind of interaction the most (the more intelligent people) either don't have kids or stick their kids in day care. Because it is truly maddening to have an extreme mental capacity and be reduced to 'Goo Goo Ga Ga' 20 hours a day.