Topic: Java, C#, XP and the letter 'c'
started by: Pravus Angelus
Posted by Pravus Angelus on Jun. 09 2002,04:38
Kay. Forgive any ignorance but I have some questions and hopefully somebody has some answers.1. Does anybody know of any Java compilers for any platform other than IBM mainframes? Anybody know what version of JDK they support & how reliable they are? Also, do they replicate the GUI features typically handled by the JVM?
2. Anybody have a good article comparing C# to Java? From what I've been told the two are virtually identical in terms of the development process, except of course C# doesn't have the f***ing JVM and is win32 only
3. XP does anybody know roughly the disk space difference between a win2k pro install and a winxp pro install? I ask because I have win2k pro on a partitioned drive and it's almost entirely filling it up... I split the HD in the first place to sep. the OS from the DATA and I want to install XP, but I don't want to have to repartition (since that would require killing the other drive...)
4. WTF is up with the letter 'c'?
Posted by Beldurin on Jun. 09 2002,07:55
1.) Borland Jbuilder is what I used for my Java class in undergrad.2.) I read a C# article in webtechniques (a sad mag if ever I saw one: Oooh, you mean I can use tables to enhance the layout of my webpage? You don't say!
I say don't use either...use PHP.3.) Dunno
4.) Where did that come from?
Posted by RadioActive on Jun. 09 2002,16:17
1). Look above, and borlan is the best.2). Look above.
3). In my experience xp takes up a bit more space, but it's more of a matter of like 100mb. What you need is partition magic or osmething like that. It will take a while, but it can repartition without destroying data. I did that a few times before. Tokk 500mb from one partition and added to the other for same reasons, space on xp partition seemed to misteriously disappear even though i regularly cleaned all temp files and such.
4). I think he is refering to C being used for most language names like C,C++,VisualC++,C#. And if that's what you are talking about, I have no clue why they did that.
Posted by Beldurin on Jun. 09 2002,17:18
4.) I used to know why they called it C, but I can't remember. C++ is so named because it's the next step in the evolution of the programming language and ++ is the increment operator in the language. Visual C++ comes from the fact that you use a GUI to write it and MS needed a snappy name. C# probably came about because MS wanted something familiar.
Posted by Bob_the_Cannibal on Jun. 09 2002,22:17
| Code Sample |
Programming Language Map: BCPL Java | | B | | | C | |-- Visual C | C++ | | |-- Visual C++ | C# -------------------------| |
Make sense?
Posted by veistran on Jun. 09 2002,23:13
wasn't it C because there was already and A and B?edit: it'd be nice if I read all of the replies before posting, wouldn't it?
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jun. 10 2002,01:11
a couple minor corrections...1. afaik B and C are both derived directly from BCPL; C is not based on B.
2. Visual C / Visual C++ are not languages, they're software packages.
3. The reason C is such a big letter in the programming world is because so many languages derive their syntax from it.
4. C# is MS's attempt at making a C-like scipting language. Unfortunately for them, it's already been done very well, and the interpreter and almost all libraries are 100% free. See perl, which is arguably the most popular scripting language on the planet.
| Code Sample |
BCPL....C..............C++....? | | | B | Java, C# Objective C, countless other languages |
Posted by Estërion on Jun. 10 2002,03:43
is perl like, between C and php?
Posted by Pravus Angelus on Jun. 10 2002,05:47
whoops, sorry my bad. Clearly I should have clarified on at least #1.I wans't asking for an IDE or third party compiler to turn java into bytecode, i was asking for native java compilers (found some, as it happens. But couldn't find any free ones...anybody have a free one? :-). As for IDEs I was never a huge fan of Borland...personally I use < JCreator >.
I managed to find some other stuff on C# as it happens. BTW DSL I wouldn't call it a scripting language any more than you'd call java a scripting language. Unlike perl which (and correct me if I'm wrong, which I may be) is always directly interpreted, both C# and Java are compiled to intermittent non-native languages. C# is actually never interpreted, but rather the intermittent language (IL) is natively compiled prior to execution (which differs from Java's JIT approach & presumably, though I'm not sure of it, assures higher performance).
as for perl being most popular... it depends a lot on where you look. In the professional world perl's use is far rarer than elsewhere (not to say there aren't companies that use perl, they just use it less than individual programmers). We could go on, but I think the perl vs. debate is one that can quickly become a black hole from which we will never escape (sort of like the abortion debate...)
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jun. 10 2002,08:00
my bad on the C#. it's not a scripting language.enormous downside to C# : it only works on x86 machines running Windows, and because it's a MS product that's all it will ever run on.
anyone who tells you that "this doesn't matter 'cause everyone runs Windows" is a fool. the vast majority of large sites run a variant of Unix on big iron.
| Quote |
| In the professional world perl's use is far rarer than elsewhere (not to say there aren't companies that use perl, they just use it less than individual programmers). |
You don't see much Perl used much in Windows, but it's ubiqitous in the Unix world. These days, a Unix box without perl installed is practically worthless.
Posted by veistran on Jun. 11 2002,22:40
I fell in love perl
Posted by demonk on Jun. 12 2002,00:42
Want an example of perl being used professionally? I can name a relativly large company that relies on it: Intel.I've worked in serveral areas in Intel, and they use perl everywhere! The design areas especially. It's very power, flexible, and it's really fast. Anyway, just wanted to make sure no one talked smack about the greates programming language out there (next to C/C++ of course).
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jun. 12 2002,02:30
perl is used everywhere real programmers work 
there's a lot of truth to that, actually. The big language(s) for standalone applications are still C and C++, but anyone who knows Perl reaches for it any time they need to write a quick & dirty tool. Its amazing how many of those you wind up writing in the course of development.
Things like Java and .NET have more brand recognition in the Web world, but the vast majority of Web development is still done in Perl. The Perl 6 VM promises to kick the JVM's ass for all time.
here's a question for those of you who learned C before C++ : how many of C++'s additional features do you actually use? Personally, I find that I only use // and a tiny subset of the OOP stuff... everything in my objects gets declared "public" ffs
Posted by veistran on Jun. 12 2002,05:29
lazy 
I like template classes
Posted by CaptainEO on Jun. 12 2002,06:01
| Quote |
| here's a question for those of you who learned C before C++ : how many of C++'s additional features do you actually use? Personally, I find that I only use // and a tiny subset of the OOP stuff... |
In order of importance:
* Exceptions and the initialization-is-resource-acquisition pattern - these features make code tremendously more readable by automating away all of the little error cleanup paths, and are to me what gives C++ real power over C. (90% of the code in a production C program seems to be for error handling... =)
this is how I write C:
| Code Sample |
int f() { char *foo; FILE *bar; foo = malloc(9999); if(!foo) return -1; if(!do_something(foo)) { free(foo); return -1; } bar = open("bar.txt"); if(!bar) { free(foo); return -1; } if(!something_else(foo, bar)) { close(bar); free(foo); return -1; } close(bar); free(foo); return 0; } |
now here is the same thing in C++:
| Code Sample |
void f() { scoped_array<char> foo(new char[9999]); do_something(foo); file bar("bar.txt"); something_else(foo, bar); } |
the resulting compiled code will be virtually identical...
* the STL - because I'm tired of writing and debugging my own linked lists and hash tables...
* declaring variables in places other than the top of the basic block (for(int i = 0;...) - this is the #1 annoyance when I have to code in plain C (although this feature will become part of C in an upcoming standard)
* std::string - I list this on its own just to point out how damn useful it is to have a standard resize-able string type...
* basic classes, single inheritance, and virtual functions
* // (though I consider that a part of C now that most compilers recognize it)
Things I haven't found a use for:
* multiple & virtual inheritance
* iostreams (the implementations I have seen are very bloated and printf() always seems adequate =)
* RTTI and dynamic_cast
Things I wish C++ could do:
* abstract types - the ability to declare methods of a class without also having to declare its members at the same time. (there are two widely-used work-arounds - the pimpl idiom and abstract interface classes - I use and hate them both =)
* virtual data - the ability to stick data of arbitrary types into the virtual function table for a class, not just pointers to its virtual member functions
* not cause quite so much code bloat (though STLport does a good job with this)
* compile faster - if only GCC had pre-compiled headers and templates...
Posted by Beldurin on Jun. 12 2002,07:49
| Quote (demonk @ 11 June 2002,18:42) |
| Want an example of perl being used professionally? I can name a relativly large company that relies on it: Intel. I've worked in serveral areas in Intel, and they use perl everywhere! The design areas especially. It's very power, flexible, and it's really fast. Anyway, just wanted to make sure no one talked smack about the greates programming language out there (next to C/C++ of course). |
My bro works for Intel! You still work there? And demonk is right, Intel uses it a lot. So do other large companies, like Saint Gobain (from personal experience).
I took several C++ classes and a Java class. Didn't fall in love w/C++ and I hated Java. Of course, I never wrote anything but UNIX command line proggys or Win32 console apps w/C++. Did some visual stuff w/Java and the MFCs, but it was a bitch and I only accidently got my programs to work!
Posted by veistran on Jun. 13 2002,18:32
MFC is such crap
Posted by Darth Liberus on Jun. 14 2002,12:15
What do you mean? Don't you like including 10MB of libraries to say Hello, world?
Posted by compact3000 on Jun. 22 2002,23:23
| Quote (Darth Liberus @ 14 June 2002,07:15) |
| What do you mean? Don't you like including 10MB of libraries to say Hello, world? |
Whats the big thing about saying "Hello, world"... In almost every java/programming book I have read, the first thing they teach you to do is like make an appalet or something that says Hello, world. And I think I am sticking to Visual Basic Scipt and Perl programming...
Posted by just_dave on Jun. 23 2002,02:53
hello world is probablly the first program you write in almost any language. It gives you a feel for programming. Gets you used to code structure and things.I have probablly wrote hello world in so many programming languages......
VB, Java, C, C++, Turbo Pascal... I cant remember the first program you write in assembly. I changed schools after the first week of assembly
