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Forum: Geek Forum
Topic: Windows XP
started by: incubus

Posted by incubus on Aug. 01 2001,23:20

I've not gotten round to trying it until today, I downloaded the ISO of RC2.

All I can say is:

HOLY SHIT!

Everything does seem to smack of Fisher Price, but from all I've been playing with, it's as stable as HELL (even moreso than 2k) and is great to look at, and very polished.

I'm an avid Linux user as well as a Windows user and I think that with this new OS, MS is finally starting to listen to user feedback. Well done!

Anyone else got experiences with this? Jim, you tried the latest builds?

I mean, this is *unfinished*, and i'm hella impressed. There's still RTM and Final to come yet, and I'm swayed already!

I've started downloading Office XP now. Is this as good or is it nasty bloatware?

cheers

Mike

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

Posted by The_Stomper on Aug. 02 2001,02:40

Yeah, I heard that RC2 is a major improvement. IMO all M$ OSes suck like blowing on the back of a spoon - but at least XP sucks less than the others ...

Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Aug. 02 2001,04:44

but doesnt it limit you to only being allowed to change 3 components in your pc before having to dial microsft up and get it renewed?

i mean i guess u could just burn it to cd and then format your HDD but still iono. is that a big problem?

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To skate on the thin crust, known as reality

< Where's your self re-cocking-spect >

Posted by incubus on Aug. 02 2001,09:06

You're forced to register your product within 60 days with Microsoft. It's free to use until then.

Then again, there's a 50k crack that disables that.

If you can't get it, get a file-sharing program. I recommend < www.edonkey2000.com >

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

Posted by kornalldaway on Aug. 02 2001,13:47

There had been rumours goin around that microsoft is considering removien windows product activation from the final release due to all negative comments about it. They do realise that it is already cracked and that the activation will just scare off "average" computer users since everybody describes it as a pain in the ass.
So I really do think that it is in microsoft's best interest to get rid of product activatio.

Posted by CatKnight on Aug. 02 2001,15:54

i hope so too, although it doesn't really matter to me since i get cd's and licenses of most buisness software for free from psu, including win2k pro and office 2000. they will probably have win xp pro and office xp soon as well. too bad they dont have any linux distribs tho.

Posted by demonk on Aug. 02 2001,16:41

You do know that you can download any Linux distro as an ISO file and then burn that to a CD right? It is exactly what you would find on the CD you buy in the store, just without the pretty CD lable. And I bet you either have a CD burner, or know a friend who does.

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10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
30 GOTO 10

Posted by Rhydant on Aug. 02 2001,17:02

ive got all the RAR files on a CD. but when i un-rared them, and burned the ISO to a disc, it didnt work.

Posted by KL1NK on Aug. 03 2001,08:23

quote:
Originally posted by CatKnight:
too bad they dont have any linux distribs tho.

< http://carroll.cac.psu.edu/pub/linux/distributions/ >

Posted by RenegadeSnark on Aug. 03 2001,22:44

Post some XP screenshots - I'm out of town and on a connection too slow to dig for them.

But regardless of how it looks or how stable it may be, I'm still going to stick to my GNU/Linux workstation for my software development, irc, etc.

My main PC will remain Windows 2000. I refuse to deal with product activation, and for that matter... I don't want an OS that is as tactical as XP. XP no longer includes java runtime environment (yes, I know you can download it) and there are a slew of other anti-competitive things I've read, so I'm going to make the decision not to support Microsoft on the XP release.

Everyone else should do the same.

Posted by Tattered on Aug. 04 2001,04:45

Would someone mind describing product activation to me? I seem to have missed the definition.

Posted by [liquid] meta on Aug. 04 2001,14:43

product activation is intended to keep a track on who is using m$ products.

it cracks down on illegal distribution of the os. you need to reactivate it after a major hardware change (ie a new motherboard)

it's in the betas and to be honest I doubt they're going to use it in the final product. they claim they can remove the bugs that allow the cracks but there are other ways around it.

Posted by incubus on Aug. 04 2001,18:02

Snark,
Hi! How are you!

I make < these screenshots > in order to have your advice.

thanks.

As for product activation, yeah, I get where youre coming from, but there will always be a way round it. Trust me.

Snark again:

No way this beats linux as a development platform, but you weren't expecting that, right?

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

This message has been edited by incubus on August 05, 2001 at 01:39 PM

Posted by Tattered on Aug. 04 2001,18:57

Wow, those screens look great.. you've convinced me to download it for the 3rd time .. because the last 2 were screwed up iso's.

I hate wasting cds.

Posted by hub on Aug. 05 2001,22:43

quote:
Originally posted by incubus:
I've started downloading Office XP now. Is this as good or is it nasty bloatware?

Bloatware. Though I think Office 2000 is bloatware too.

Posted by RenegadeSnark on Aug. 06 2001,00:54

Nice screenies. Microsoft still isn't getting my 贄 or more for a new window manager, though.

Hint: Drop that shitty format JPEG. Start taking your screenshots as 24-bit PNG's, like real men do

Posted by blind_is_3L173 on Aug. 17 2001,01:03

If WinXP doesn't recognize ME when I had it on a Fat32 and XP on a Fat32, is there any way to tell it that its there? Any ideas? I suck at this.

Posted by Beldurin on Aug. 17 2001,02:33

I've also heard some VERY nasty security things about Win XP. Lots holes for viruses and spyware that aren't there in Win 2K. Apparently XP's IP sockets are wide open to any application or process.

Not good. Not good at all. I have a legit copy of Win XP RC1, but can't bring myself to install it.

I also don't like the built-in PcAnywhere-type functionality. For those not familiar, it allows people (supposedly Microsoft Techs) to connect to your pc and watch what you're doing to help you troubleshoot problems. It also allows for the "Tech" to take control of your pc remotely. Supposedly all of this requires direct authorization from the user, but I doubt that it will be long before that's circumvented if it hasn't been already.

I think I'll stick w/2K on my main box and RedHat on my router

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark-Angel99:
How come {name removed} doesn't like you? I find you really funny :D

Never argue with and idiot...he may be doing the same thing

Posted by [liquid] meta on Aug. 18 2001,00:20

I've heard of XP's backdoor problems. The reason seems to be because Microsoft wants to create their own TCP protocols. IF they make the current ones look bad, they can bring theirs up.

Oh yeah, I do agree that remote pc assistance is kinda scary. Techs can take control of your computer at any time they try. I'm also sure they have a way to get around you needing to ok their access.

Posted by incubus on Aug. 18 2001,02:47

quote:
Originally posted by [liquid] meta:
I've heard of XP's backdoor problems. The reason seems to be because Microsoft wants to create their own TCP protocols. IF they make the current ones look bad, they can bring theirs up.
Oh yeah, I do agree that remote pc assistance is kinda scary. Techs can take control of your computer at any time they try. I'm also sure they have a way to get around you needing to ok their access.

no, No, NO ...

MS don't want to make their own TCP protocols. Thats some balls that braindead columnist Cringely wrote. Do you have ANY idea how impossible it would be to just "switch protocols"? Why do you think IPv6 won't be fully implemented for 10 years?

Snark - I was just using the printscrn button to take the screenies. I'm in Linux now, and I spend 80\%+ of my time there, but sometimes it's refreshing to go back to windows for a bit, I don't know why.

As for linux, I'm learing more and more every day. I'm a good way through making a < LFS > system, it really lets you into how linux works.

Also GNU Parted ROCKS! It's like partitionmagic, except free, and works. I resized a 40gb hard disk (15 gig used) into a 25 partition and a 15 partition in under 5 minutes without even defragging ... now THAT is good. I only have a dual celeron 400, so its not like have an uber leet processor to take the load.

So ... um, yeah, that topic. XP is really nice. It's really just 2000 with a little MacOS added to it, but it's hella stable. Since I installed it, it's crashed ONCE. And I mean ONCE. As in, not just the OS, any games running on it or whatever has never crashed. I think MS is learning from their mistakes - at least in that department.

Prolly a big walking security hole tho, if what grc.com have to say is true.

Posted by Greasemonk on Aug. 18 2001,19:51

Yeah i have XP RC2 on another partition and can dualboot, its ok I guess. The only problem I have is that it doesnt like to reboot. It shuts down and turns the system off fine, but If i want to reboot and go into WinME it just goes to a black screen and the monitor turns off.. Also for some reason my Hercules startup stuff lags and wont launch sometimes. Its weird, if it doesnt load and I launch outlook express it always loads right before outlook.

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All that I know there was no God for me
Force that shatters all, absence of mortality

Posted by caseman984 on Aug. 19 2001,00:36

The other problem with XP(see < here >) is that it dosnt have any voodoo drivers, so I'm stuck without any opengl/glide gameplay, tho it does work with direct3d.. hmmm.. damn microsoft, oh well the gui is pretty and its stable thats all I ask. Oh, and in referance to [liquid]'s post, I've also heard of the sockets being wide open, thats why i run another firewall on my machine, my hacker buddy reccomended it.

P.S. Just got home from vacation, 14 hour car ride, brin no workie, pleae excuse this post.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tattered:
Caseman's kewl, he sometimes makes good posts based on small observations.

This message has been edited by caseman984 on August 19, 2001 at 07:37 PM

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Aug. 19 2001,04:11

The "open sockets" you're talking about are actually WinXP's capability to do RAW sockets, which means you can frame your own IP datagrams without having to talk to the directly to your NICs device driver. All of you have this capability on your Linux box0rs already. It's a non-issue that some security consultants are squaking about. You can read more about it in < this article > from The Register.

WinXP uses the BSD networking library, which should make Internet servers run a lot faster & more reliably on WinXP than Win2K / NT / ME / 9x.

Posted by Observer on Aug. 19 2001,10:13

Yes you can do that in Linux and other OSs, but only with Admin rights. The "security issue" that others are ranting about is the fact that in WinXP, all users are by default Admins. They did that in the name of app comptibility.

The fix that people are calling for here is for access to RAW sockets to be restricted as they are everywhere else, possibly to just System-level processes.

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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

Posted by incubus on Aug. 19 2001,13:10

And with raw socket support you can do great things like source address spoofing, and allsortsa shit. Skript kiddie heaven basically.

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Aug. 19 2001,14:41

quote:
Originally posted by Observer:
Yes you can do that in Linux and other OSs, but only with Admin rights

And how many of you out there run Linux box0rs but DON'T have admin rights????

As for XP being s'kiddie heaven - er, you already CAN do address spoofing etc. on Windows box0rs. You just have to use the right library, which is freely available.

Somehow I don't think XP is going to be the death of the 'Net...

Posted by Observer on Aug. 19 2001,15:14

Gibson's comment on that last point is that the code to do that is integrated into the OS, so that programs wouldn't have to include it in the package. They could just use what's there.

The other point he makes is that MS has already acknowledged how RAW socket support is restricted everywhere else, but as of yet they haven't made the small little patch to fix it.

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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

Posted by demonk on Aug. 19 2001,20:46

quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
And how many of you out there run Linux box0rs but DON'T have admin rights????

If they are good Linux users and have some intelligence (as most Linux users do), they have two accounts. The standard root account, and a regular user account that doesn't have many rights. You only login with the regular account. Then, if you need to do something that requires admin privilages, it will either ask you for the root password, or it will error saying you have to be root. This prevents you from accidentaly fucking your system up. If you have to specifially use the root account, it usually means you know exactly what you are going to do. But with Windows, you are automatically setup as Administrator, and how many Windows users out there do you think will know to create another account?

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10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
30 GOTO 10

This message has been edited by demonk on August 20, 2001 at 03:48 PM

Posted by incubus on Aug. 19 2001,22:12

something nice ive noticed is that i play CS in openGL mode usually. i installed it yesterday and set the vidmode to ogl and it said "your video card does not support this mode". and i was like wtf?

so i tried the same mode in d3d and lo and behold it worked.

can you say m-o-n-o-p-o-l-y?

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Aug. 19 2001,23:39

Yes, intelligent Linux users don't use "root" as their primary account, but so what? My point is, if you HAVE root access on a Linux box0r, then there is nothing stopping you from becoming root or installing a program that is suid root.

Either way, you have raw sockets and the capability to do source address spoofing.

As for the library needed to give current Windows releases raw sockets, it's very small. Once you have gained access to a remote Windows system, installing that library is trivial. You simply have your exploit script contact a friendly server and download it.

Even assuming we're going to have a massive increase in the number of users with raw sockets, there's still the fact that raw sockets simply aren't very useful for cracking systems. So you can make zombies use spoofed addresses when they mount a DDOS attack - so what? If you're being bombarded by a DDOS attack, whether or not the source address field of the incoming packets are spoofed is the least of your worries.