Topic: geekness check
started by: Estėrion
Posted by Estėrion on Jul. 22 2002,06:22
if anyone can help me see if I got this right.linux is a free operating system.
GNU is ANOTHER free operating system, that is not totally complete, so that's why we get GNU/Linux.
and BSD is yet ANOTHER totally different operating system. right?
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 22 2002,07:23
umm...kinda...P.S. Bonus geek points to the first person who can tell me what GNU stands for without looking it up (honor system).
Basically, GNU was _RMS_' (Richard Stallman's) idea. He's pretty much the guy that caused the split in the entire open source community. His idea was to start a totally free operating system to compete with UNIX/Minix. However, it was too big of a task, and he didn't feel confident writing a kernel, so he started writing other stuff (the libraries, as I recall), and put off the kernel development. Eventually, he got to a point where he had all of the trapping of an OS, but nothing to drive it (the whole car w/out the engine). Right about then was when Linus came along with Linux. That's more or less where GNU/Linux comes in.
Well, long story short, _RMS_ wanted to make Linus (and every other open source person) release their software under the GPL (GNU Public License--basically means "here's the code, do whatever you want, but you can't charge anything...at all...and any modifications to this code is also protected under the GPL"). His idea was to create a snowball effect of free software. Important distinction: open source and free software ARE NOT the same thing. I have the emails from _RMS_ to prove it...he's an interesting person to correspond with. Needless to day, the rest of the developers didn't like being pushed around and so the whole community split between the free software (GNU/_RMS_) and open source (Linux/Linus) camps.
BSD (I think) is a UNIX variant (whereas Linux is a UNIX-like OS). Anyone feel free to correct me on that one, though.
Does that explain it a bit better?
Yes, I know, I'm a huge geek. And I think I just elevated my status right up there near the top of the geeks on the site, yes? If you want to read more about RMS and Linus, there's some great info < here (shameless self-promotion) >
Posted by Wiley on Jul. 22 2002,18:56
Beldurin, Nice 
I thought GNU was a pun on "New" because the name of the animal gnu is pronounced "New". I could be wrong, but I didn't want to cheat and look it up. The entire free vs. open source is just odd to me. I mean, if I'm going to use a piece of software to make me more efficient and more profitable then shouldn't I be willing to at least pay for it? I mean, I agree open source can lead to the rapid improvement of software, but if nobody is making money off of it then is no incentive to distribute enhanced versions of the software. Basically you tweak it to work better for you and that's it. And how good can software get if there is never an influx of R&D money? At some point every piece of software is going to get to a point where it requires some real time and talent to make it better.
And do you think that Linus Torvalds kicks himself every night knowing that he should by all rights be as rich as Bill Gates? Think of all those servers running his software, yet he doesn't see money from it. Tragic.
I weep for the future of the GPL. Think of this, Sun put out Star Office which was free and did everything that MS Office did. I have about 10 copies (none ever installed) that I got from Comdex along with all the other geeks. Soon after that Star Office died a horrible death ...why? I mean, it was free. Why don't people want free software that works as good as their $200 software? Why do people pay $22/month for AOL that sucks when most dial-up is between $15-$20 for less busy numbers? Why you ask? Because people are lemmings and are controlled through marketing ...marketing that requires money to fund ...money that you must make by selling the software at a cost.
Posted by Dysorderia on Jul. 22 2002,21:28
| Quote (Beldurin @ 22 July 2002,02:23) |
| P.S. Bonus geek points to the first person who can tell me what GNU stands for without looking it up (honor system). |
GNU=GNU is Not Unix
(it's a recursive acronym)
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 22 2002,21:41
| Quote (Dysorderia @ 22 July 2002,15:28) | ||
GNU=GNU is Not Unix (it's a recursive acronym) |
ding, ding, ding! Nice, Dys.
Awww...kudos from Wiley
Posted by Wiley on Jul. 22 2002,23:13
GNU is Not UnixI don't get it ...the G is for GNU, but the acronym is G-N-U ..can you do that?
/me gets out his copy of "Rules of Acronyms"
Posted by Necromancer on Jul. 22 2002,23:41
WINE = Wine Is Not an Emlator
Posted by demonk on Jul. 22 2002,23:53
| Quote (Wiley @ 22 July 2002,10:56) |
| And do you think that Linus Torvalds kicks himself every night knowing that he should by all rights be as rich as Bill Gates? Think of all those servers running his software, yet he doesn't see money from it. Tragic. |
If he did, he would just make the next release of the Linux Kernel non GPL and start selling it. See, if you are the original author, you can do whatever you like with the source. He can take the next version, make it all closed, and sell it to Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, etc, etc and never provide code. That's his right. The fact he doesn't says that he really doesn't want to.
You're thinking is a little flawed Wily. Like most hard core capitalists, you are thinking that people are ONLY motivated by money. I can tell you from my own experience as a programmer and sysadmin that that is not true. I do many things that I get no money for because I enjoy doing it. Linus and people like him LOVE coding and working on a project like the Linux Kernel. The work is their own reward. If they didn't like doing that, they wouldn't and the Linux Kernel would die very quickly.
Posted by Jynx on Jul. 23 2002,02:07
| Quote (Wiley @ 22 July 2002,15:13) |
| GNU is Not Unix I don't get it ...the G is for GNU, but the acronym is G-N-U ..can you do that? /me gets out his copy of "Rules of Acronyms" |
That's why it's recursive - that is true Old School Geek Humor.
Posted by Wiley on Jul. 23 2002,03:12
| Quote (demonk @ 22 July 2002,15:53) |
| you are thinking that people are ONLY motivated by money. |
Actually people are motivated more by poontang ...the money is just a means to the end.
Maybe Linus gets some hot Linux babes ...or maybe he's into having sex with penquins
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 23 2002,04:12
| Quote (demonk @ 22 July 2002,17:53) |
| If he did, he would just make the next release of the Linux Kernel non GPL and start selling it. See, if you are the original author, you can do whatever you like with the source. He can take the next version, make it all closed, and sell it to Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, etc, etc and never provide code. That's his right. The fact he doesn't says that he really doesn't want to. |
Nope...I don't think that's how it works...once it's released under the GPL, it's under the GPL. And do you think Red Hat et al would start paying for it? I doubt it. They've had a good free ride so far. My guess is that they'd just hire their own developer teams and start charging more. Linus wouldn't get his $$, and Linux would stop being free and open source.
besides, so many other people have worked on the kernel, he can't really claim it as his property...he manages the process, but he's not the sole developer anymore.
Posted by Estėrion on Jul. 23 2002,06:00
| Quote (Wiley @ 22 July 2002,15:13) |
| GNU is Not Unix I don't get it ...the G is for GNU, but the acronym is G-N-U ..can you do that? /me gets out his copy of "Rules of Acronyms" |
... "PHP = PHP Hypertext Preprocesor"
Posted by Estėrion on Jul. 23 2002,06:13
Well. I kinda knew the story of GNU(I also knew what it meant but I had just seen it yesterday so not fair anyway), but what I wanted to know was if there are non-GNU Linux distributions, and a non-Linux GNU, and kinda curious on how different they were.Bout the money...
money is abstract. work isn't.
marketing is just a product of a society that has suppresed the role of public spaces: by definition, a public space(be it a park or even a TV Channel) is a means for the public to express itself, but it has turned into a place for advertising of the ones already in power. Their self-advertising.
That's why the internet is so powerful, because it's a place that's really public. And hence it can give birth to things like free software... or open source, or whatever.
I still don't understand the concept of open source as in opposed to free software. One thing that I read on GNU's site was that the definition of free software also implied that you can modify it, and charge for it. Even charge to distribute the original. YOU'RE FREE TO DO WITH IT WHATEVER YOU WANT. that kind of freedom.
Posted by Uberkommando on Jul. 23 2002,06:59
<dilbert> TTP stands for 'The TTP Project' </dilbert>Recursive acronyms kick ass...
Posted by ic0n0 on Jul. 23 2002,07:57
Posted by RadioActive on Jul. 23 2002,16:12
i tink that any code released under GPL can't be used to make money later. so if Linus decided to sell his kernel he would not be able to use his own code. i am pretty sure that's how it works.
Posted by Wolfguard on Jul. 23 2002,16:28
| Quote (Wiley @ 22 July 2002,22:12) |
| ...or maybe he's into having sex with penquins |
<opus>
Penguin lust is a beautiful and natrual thing...
Todays topic is Nun Beating? oh, i cant stand for that...
</opus>
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 23 2002,17:42
| Quote (RadioActive @ 23 July 2002,10:12) |
| i tink that any code released under GPL can't be used to make money later. so if Linus decided to sell his kernel he would not be able to use his own code. i am pretty sure that's how it works. |
yup...that's what I said earlier
and Est...PHP originally stood for Personal Home Page tools.
I can go into the history of it too, if you'd like.
Posted by Estėrion on Jul. 24 2002,04:34
please, enlighten us.btw, could you answer my question bout GNU and Linux???
Posted by Beldurin on Jul. 24 2002,06:50
| Quote (Estėrion @ 23 July 2002,22:34) |
| please, enlighten us. btw, could you answer my question bout GNU and Linux??? |
In the late 90's Rasmus Lerdorf wanted to keep track of who was looking at his online resume, so he wrote a perl hack to do it. Some of his buddies heard about it and asked to use it, too. Then he did some more tweaking and created some "Personal Home Page" tools as he called them. Long story short, he kept adding to them, it grew in popularity until it became a scripting language of its own. The PHP Hypertext Preprocessor acronym is actually very recent because they felt somewhat silly having one of the most popular web scripting languages being called "personal home page" tools.
As for the GNU/Linux question, I thought I answered that in my first post. Did you read the paper I linked?