And not just HIV... Any STD?!?!

I'm very protective of my crank, and take very good care of him!

I realize there are a lot of people who are not careful. They are fucking idiots. Plain and simple.

I think I've dipped my crank without his protective suit 3 times. All of which happened when I was under the age of 18. I wised up fast though.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

I'd probably go without though if I were with the same person in a long-term and we both trusted one another. I'd probably want a test first though.
It's a matter of trust in that situation.

In my last (nightmare) relationship, the girl kept telling me it was ok and that she 'knew' her body. She actually wanted it! This was one reason I knew it wouldn't go far at all. I don't want to be with someone that irresponsible.

------------------
You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The
trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Willy Pete:
I don't want to be with someone that irresponsible.

---

Thanks dude! We need more Willy Pete's out there. Please don't EVER buy into that guys!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

yeah, i care about hiv. but i refuse to let an obsession for worry own my existence. i take what i consider to be reasonable precautions, and to date, i'm both std and hiv negative. there's a huge difference between being aware of a risk and caring enough to minimize it, and being downright obsessively paranoid. if i never did anything that might be dangrous, i couldn't even breathe air.

i've been hearing the hiv speeches since they figured out in the early 80s that it wasn't just gay guys that get it... and it hasn't changed anything for me. it's good to be concerned about things, but concern can reach a point where it's just an obsession.

the hardest part of being a sexually non-repressed person is the constant assumption by others that if you have an active sex life, you're some kind of diseased slut.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

I want to compare this to russian roulette. Although I realize your chance of getting HIV or anyother STD is much less that 1 in 6. But I would even stick a gun up to my head and pull the trigger if it was 1 in 100.

Actually I have pulled that trigger a few times, but I won't do it again.

I can't imagine dwelling the rest of my life on one mistake.

This is also the reason I don't smoke pot or do other drugs..... What if I were to get a drug test at work? Would that one high be worth loosing my totally kick ass job.... No.

And I certainly think my life is worth than one female invoked orgasm!!!!

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

hehe i think thats funny

my post wasn't an offer for any guy on this forum to have sex with me. despite what you obviously now think, i don't screw anything with a penis that offers. once again, someone who doesn't know me or anything about me has made an assumption about the kind of person i am and the life i live based on my refusal to let the concern over getting hiv mean that i don't have a healthy or fulfilling sex life.

jim, you are free to assume whatever you want, but the next time you want to insinuate that i'm promiscuous, that i don't know the person i'm sleeping with very well, or that i'm indiscriminate about what i do with who, remember that you don't know me any better than what i say on this forum.

and i really don't give a damn if you'd want to have sex with me or not. i'm an extremely picky person, hence i've had lots of sex with a VERY short list of people, and believe me, your name will never be on the list.

oh, and if i did take your statements to heart, i'd have no choice but to resort to the same kind of cheap shots that you did. in one sentence you managed to sum up the exact same small minds i was talking about in my last post when i said that when you're a sexually un-repressed person, people are quick to label you a diseased slut.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

jim, I wish the best of luck on finding an air tight space suit. You can connect tanks of pure air, and filtered water can be pumped directly into your stomach through a steral tube. 100\% daily values of all chemicals and energy can be dispersed directly through trillions of small fiber-like threads attached to your individual cells (because the stomach isn't perfect, and you wouldn't want any excriment. It might be to dangerous to go outside, because you might tear a hole in you suit. So just lock yourself in an isolated room with lighting that doesn't contain any UV radiation. Or mabey that's too complicated... hmmm...
Why don't you just kill yourself? Then you won't have ANYTHING to worry about.
------------------
P:\erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

[This message has been edited by PersonGuy (edited September 16, 2000).]

the whole point of that 'it wasn't an offer' thing was that 'i don't sleep around.' that's all. and thanks for realizing that concern doesn't have to mean paranoia.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

quote:

---

Originally posted by PersonGuy:
Why don't you just kill yourself? Then you won't have ANYTHING to worry about.

---

PersonGuy, that has to be the stupidest fucking thing I've heard anyone say on this forum.

I knew my post would be taken completely wrong, which is fine.

Me saying I wouldn't have sex with kuru wasn't supposed to be taken literally.

It was intended to be based ONLY on the comments I've read from her. Not the person herself.

At any rate I've already apologized to kuru offline, and explained in further detail to her what I was trying to get across. Unfortunately after every sentence she immediately assumes I'm talking about her. No matter how many times I say I'm not talking about her personally.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

[This message has been edited by jim (edited September 16, 2000).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jim:
I knew my post would be taken completely wrong, which is fine.

---

wow, this just blows my mind. you KNOW that you'll sound like the idiot you are, and yet you post it anyway... ok... something that i personally wouldn't do, but...

quote:

---

Originally posted by jim:
It was intended to be based ONLY on the comments I've read from her. Not the person herself.

---

so, you're saying that you'll comment on -=and rip someone apart for=- something that you've based solely on the comments you've read from that person? now, that's the stupidest fucking thing i've ever heard...
while i don't condone personguy's thoughts that you should kill yourself, as i am against ANYONE killing themsleves, i think that maybe, just maybe, you should try using that mass of cells between your ears before posting next time.

------------------
brodie
Now every face looks familiar
Then every face would melt away until now
Everyone, do you know?
I know your deception

[This message has been edited by brodie (edited September 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by brodie (edited September 16, 2000).]

First of all, I wasn't defending kuru. I wrote the second paragraph RIGHT after reala's, and by the time I submitted it kuru had gotten hers in. So I edited to make a small comment to her. The second paragraph had NO relation to the first.
Second of all, I wasn't trying to convince anyone to kill them selves, I was explaining how impossible it is to protect yourself from ALL harm. With jim saying he wouldn't take a 1 in 1000 risk (now that he's older) I think that applies to alot more than sex. You might crash... can't drive. You might get hit... can't walk. You might get an infection... can't eat. It comes to the point where you HAVE to make a choice. Kill youself and then you lower all risks to ZERO. Or stop being so damn protective of yourself!! People who are too carful are a little self centered. Not only is *makes monkey face and moves hands alternately forward and back with open palms* everyone out to get yyyyyyyoooooooouuuuuuu, but yyyyyyyyooooooouuuuuuurrrrrrr soooooooooooooooo impooooooooooooortant that yyyyyyyooooooooouuuuuuuuuu need to be sheilded from eeeeeeeeeeevery thing eeeeeeeeeeeevery seeeeeeeecond.

If all you want to do in life is stop yourself from dieing, then I got news for ya... you've ALREADY failed! Do something significant with your life other than perserving yourself OR stopping breathing everyone else's air!

------------------
<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

------------------
brodie

Now every face, it looks familiar...
then every face would melt away until now...
everyone, do you know, I know your deception?
------------------

My question is: how likely is it to get HIV or an STD from going down on her?? She seemed healthy enough, but ya never know..

*also one of the times we were fooling around she was having her period or around that time or something cuz when we were done i noticed some blood. I was kinda grossed out but didn't let on that i saw it or nothing.
Could that increase the risk??

thanks for your support :]

------------------
aventari
"A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire

Kuru : Don't take it to heart, he's great too.

Anyone else : leave them to it, in fact dont even do that, its sorted :P

To do with the forum :

The way I see it I'm almost with Kuru on this one. While I'll always use a condom I will only (and have only) slept with either my partner or very close friends at the time. Going down on a girl I tend to reserve for my partner tho', not sure why, cos I love it so much, it's really nice seeing your loved one go through being on the receiving end of it. Half the fun!

I don't sleep around, maybe I don't get much of a chance (as im uggerleee) but when I have had offers I've refused them, I always play it safe (tho' I've made a couple of mistakes, I'm only human), I think that I'm doing things fairly responsibly, if I get HIV through these procedures then well it's tough shit. Comparitively, I could get cancer tomorrow, I use a mobile phone. Those are the breaks.

We live in a world full of risks, we have to learn to draw the line and prepare to make some sacrifices, otherwise life is drab and grey.

Look after each other, and there's no problems.

Mike

------------------
-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

Now don't get me wrong, Sex is very, VERY necessary, in my mind at least. I only feel that there are very simple things I can do, that really don't effect the over all pleasure of sex that will HELP prevent me from contracting any disease.

I've been unfortunate enough to stare death in the eyes twice in a life time already, and lived to tell about it. (which I'd glady do if ya want!)

Ok, I have more to type, but I'm to lazy. Feed on this for a while, and then if necessary, I'll type out the rest of my analogies...

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

hopefully we can go back to having fun on this forum and back to the topic of the discussion, which if i remember right was safe sex.

i practice safe sex, except for using condoms during oral. yeah, i know, bad me, but latex tastes HORRID, and nonoxynol-9 is even worse. i don't figure it as too huge of a risk, since the only people i ever get physical with are those i'm either in a relationship with, or are very close friends. as to what i was saying about outright paranoia, i meant the people who won't even eat in a restaurant because there 'might be hiv on the fork.'

i've been almost killed, nearly dead, or thought to be dying six times in my life. in the last 8 years, i've put 14 boxes in the ground containing friends and family.. please don't feel sorry for me. this has taught me only that life is limited and you never know when your turn to clock out is. i could live my life obsessively carefully, and get hit by a bus tomorrow. i could live recklessly and live to be a hundred. i'd prefer to live happily in the middle of those two and let nature do what nature does.

i advocate practicing safe sex... and please do be concerned about hiv, std's, and pregnancy. also remember it's not necessary to worry yourself into an ulcer.

merry meet, merry part, and merry meet again

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

Incubus. You rock. Person Guy, you rule again. Kuru, I've already talked to you, and love you to.

Brodie, fuck you and kiss my ass.

This is to the rest of the people thinking about commenting on my origianl post.

I don't take back anything. I'm sorry I mentioned kuru. I was drunk, upon reading her post again, it doesn't strike me the same as it did when I read it drunk. Me and her have already had it out, outside of the DetNet forum. I apoligized, she accepted.

Leave it at that.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Anyway, you're probably ok, and almost all mouth contracted STD aren't going to hurt your pepe.

------------------
<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

------------------

------------------
<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

[This message has been edited by PersonGuy (edited September 17, 2000).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by darksol:
I realize, there are few and far between those who abstain, but I would like to mention that it is very hard to get an STD this way.

---

Well said, darksol.
An I would add that there are other reasons besides STDs for abstinence. If you ever decide to get married, for instance, are you going to want that person to mistrust you or be jealous of all the people who you had sex with before them?

We have a divorce rate of 50\% in this country. Several of my friends have divorced parents; I'm sure the same is true for all of you. There is really no excuse for this; how can half the people who enter marriage believing that they have found someone that they want to be with always suddenly decide that they are wrong?

Our culture is seriously messed up. Love is supposed to be based on mutual respect, not on lust. If you are just sleeping around for fun, without forming any serious relationships, you had better be quite happy with that lifestyle, because you're unlikely to ever find anything more permanent.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael:
Well said, darksol.
An I would add that there are other reasons besides STDs for abstinence. If you ever decide to get married, for instance, are you going to want that person to mistrust you or be jealous of all the people who you had sex with before them?

We have a divorce rate of 50\% in this country. Several of my friends have divorced parents; I'm sure the same is true for all of you. There is really no excuse for this; how can half the people who enter marriage believing that they have found someone that they want to be with always suddenly decide that they are wrong?

Our culture is seriously messed up. Love is supposed to be based on mutual respect, not on lust. If you are just sleeping around for fun, without forming any serious relationships, you had better be quite happy with that lifestyle, because you're unlikely to ever find anything more permanent.

---

I wholly disagree. First off, abstinence has been tossed out the window, yeah, well, I agree there, and that STD's are hard to get.

Divorce is not the result of 'jealousy of previous sexual partners' unless someone's head is fucked up. Everyone these days is stressed out with Corporate America, that leaves them hostile when they get home. Besides, in the old days a man was wholly in charge of a family and divorce rarely occurred due to law/strong religion.

Lastly, I say go for lust. If there are chemicals in our body saying 'fuck her', and we get the opportunity, why the hell not?

------------------
Webbie/EIC
< http://boomgames.com >

Founder < http://tucb.com/ >

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
Divorce is not the result of 'jealousy of previous sexual partners' unless someone's head is fucked up.

---

If your relationship with your wife is no closer than a dozen relationships you've had before, how can you expect it to last any longer?

And as for that bit about obeying chemicals in your body, I can't believe anyone would seriously say that. The same reasoning would say that if you're mad enough at someone, go ahead and kill him.

Furthermore what is generally accepted by the public has never been an indication of what is the right thing to do.

Some of the posts that I have seen in these forums have been rather disturbing, and I've often disagreed with what is being said, but what you just posted is the only one that has really managed to shock me this much. RenagadeSnark, I seriously hope that you don't practice what you preach, because I don't like the idea of someone who thinks like you contributing to the gene pool.

------------------
brodie

Now every face, it looks familiar...
then every face would melt away until now...
everyone, do you know, I know your deception?
------------------

if someone distruts or is jealous simply because i've had sex before getting married, then they're definately not someone i would ever want to marry. my god, i couldn't imagine spending a month, let alone the rest of my life with someone that insecure and jealous.

you're right about one thing, the divorce rate used to be lower. wives used to stay with their abusive or alcoholic husbands because it was HARD to get a divorce, and if they did get one, there'd be nowhere for a woman to go, especially if she had kids. do you really wanna see life go back to the way it was where a woman had no choice but to stay in an unhealthy marriage? men too, for that matter, because sometimes the woman is the abusive one.

as for your last statement, what makes you assume that all non-virgins just sleep around and let lust control everything they do? you're acting like everyone out there who's ever had sex without being married is some hormone driven bed hopper. well, michael, virgins don't have the market cornered on love. even though i find it hard to believe that anyone can promise the rest of their life to anyone else, since people naturally go through huge changes in their lifetimes, i realize that my view of things isn't the only one. there are plenty of non-virgins out there who get married and stay married. it doesn't take a virgin to know that marriage is more than just a hop in the sack, and your little threat about all non-virgins never getting married or finding any kind of meaningful relationship sounds like the same kind of crap that small town churchies tried to beat into my head for years. maybe you don't believe in premarital sex, but you shouldn't be pointing judgemental fingers at those who don't share your beliefs and assuming that we're all just a bunch of bed-hoppers afraid of commitment.

don't fall off that moral high horse while you look down at us michael.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

Quite frankly, RenegadeSnark, that comment makes you sound like a rapist. I'm hoping that wasn't the way you meant it.

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited September 18, 2000).]

as far as renegadeshark's comment, this is why guys who hit on me in bars ALWAYS fail. if all a dude wants is an orgasm, then he can go home and jack off. sex is somethin i reserve to those who are special to me. whether they be a really good, trusted friend, or someone i'm dating (and sometimes, there's almost no difference between those two). oh yeah, and it's ALWAYS monogamous, for however long it lasts.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

life expectancy has gone up from around 45 years to almost 80 years since the 19th century ended. in the 1500s and 1600s, people would get married at 16, and be dead by 40. marriage didn't last as long then, because life didn't. but now a lot of people live well into their 80s. i start wondering if maybe people are startin to feel like a lifetime is too long. not that i'm saying 'hey, get married, 25 years later, divorce and start over.' it just seems like maybe people change a lot in those years, and they don't necessarily change in the same direction.

add into the mix that women now have careers that don't depend on their husbands, opportunities to chase, and there are tons of factors pulling people in different directions all the time. honestly, sometimes it amazes me that any marriages last.

that totally doesn't relate to hiv, at all, or maybe it does, now that there are so many divorced middle age people out there in the dating (and sleeping around) pool who didn't grow up with hiv and aids education.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

1) FINE! WORK! But a parent NEEDS to be home with the kids. One person should work, one should stay at home. Male or female, I don't care.

2) Women do NOT work as hard as men, but it's not fault of theirs, it's biological, and that's fine.

I don't think premarital sex is the cause of higher devorce rate. I think the higher divorce rate AND premarital sex are caused by more acceptence in society. I think the divorce rate IS to high, and it's because too many people get married. There's alot of pressure these days that says if you're single, you're automatically misserable.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
but now a lot of people live well into their 80s. i start wondering if maybe people are startin to feel like a lifetime is too long.

---

That's a rather depressing theory - to think that people simply aren't capable of living together happily for more than a decade or two. Of course, just because a theory is depressing doesn't make it wrong.

Abuse, adultery, and similar causes only make up a fraction of divorces. many more are just because "things don't seem to be working out." In times when it was a lot harder to get a divorce, many people stuck together through these hard times and found that they didn't last forever. People these days are too eager to give up on something that doesn't seem to be working perfectly.

As for the idea of people changing (or at least our perception of them changing), this is where the issue of HIV, etc. comes in. I know a family where the husband and wife have been married for close to two decades, and it was only after they had two children that the wife discovered that her husband had Hepatitis B and had had it, and known about it, since long before he married her. He wanted so badly to be married that he didn't tell her, and by doing so he knowingly put her at risk of contracting the disease.

I hope to be happily married some day. And when that day comes, I don't want to have my future wife insisting that I take HIV tests to make sure that I'm not infected. Nor do I want to have to lie to her about my past. And that, which I tried rather unsuccessfully to articulate before, is the reason that I advocate abstinence. If you have no difficulty discussing your past sexual history with new partners, this doesn't apply to you. But be smart, be honest, and if there's any doubt in your mind, get tested.

"mmm, perhaps". I would look at the numbers before giving that theory much weight. If the figures show that the average length of a marriage ending in divorce is relatively short, then your theory may have problems. I don't think because people are living longer that you'll find a lot of 50 or 60-year-olds divorcing and starting over simply because they have the time. Other figures to consider would be percentage of divorcees who remarry, and then in more detail, the age distribution of these people.

Intuition strikes me that divorce is rising because people marry for the wrong reasons.

------------------
"Everyone's favorite implement for any task"
------------------

Leave the box alone!

I think people have always got married for the wrong reasons. It's just much easier to get a divorce and women don't put up with men's shit anymore.

------------------
jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Anyway, to get even MORE off the topic. I didn't say ALL woman don't work as hard as men. I'm saying the average woman vs the average man... women don't work as hard. A simple example is maturnity leave. Men don't get it. Women do. It's not like the work goes away (while she still get's paid), but the men cover her ass and work double time.

Now, that might sound crazy that I bring it up, but HAVING A CHILD IS A LIFE STYLE CHOICE, not to worker right. It's like a man taking up snow boarding and expecting to leave with the snow is packed just right AND get paid for it.

------------------
<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

As far as following lust, sex is acceptable. Murder is not. Murder is way illegal. Rape is way illegal. My "if the opportunity arises" should have stated "if the opportunity arises for consentual sex". Why not go after it? If both people agree, and it's not illegal, where's the problem?

Perhaps I should insert that I'm an athiest.

I think the world is still recovering from puritan heritage or something like that... Half the people I know agree with most of what I say.

Michael: As far as the relationships go - relationships are supposed to be satisfying and happy. If they are not, they should be cut. Bottom line.

Do you obey your body chemistry when it tells you to get a drink of water? I sure as hell do.

What's generally accepted by the public is usually the right/moral thing. If it's accepted that means that people don't have a problem with it. If a few people have that against their standards, it's their choice to do as they please. That's what freedom entails my friend.

Brodie: Being able to control urges, interesting. Yeah, that's true... but as humans, our intelligence also gives us the ability to enjoy ourselves responsibly. I do not advocate screwing everyone in sight, but consentual safe sex with people is just fine.

Kuru: many well said comments. Kudos to you and your enlightened understanding of the world. Also, my comment entailed sex with your sexual partners... I'm not one to dive around for a quick fuck although if someone wants one, and I was good enough friends, I just might... I also wholeheartedly agree with your theory.

Everyone:

Well, to make a long story short, here's my perspective hopefully stated well enough that I'm not misinterpreted.

Kuru is right - the divorce rate increased with life expectancy. And I'd add that to my theory - the fact that increasing workplace stress, and the past pressure against/difficulty of divorce leaves today's rate increased. I think that if two people shouldn't be together, they simply shouldn't! That's why some laws are abolished you know... because they simply did not work.

I think that consentual, safe sex is just fine if the persons agree. Like stated before, I'm not one to go after a quick fuck. Following body chemicals telling you to do constructive, non-harmful things is fine. I dislike Michael's link of my comment to murder - like I said, what if I chose to ignore my desire for food and water?

Overall, I think this society is still wading away from the bullshit of puritans and the like. Answer something for me: why are there profane/restricted words? Probably because they were used to describe intense anger, and someone banned them to try to ban anger. Go figure.

As humans we should try to live life to its fullest, funnest extent. Sexual persuit is an explotation of this ultimite goal... anyone who says "only sex after marriage and never divorce", as far as I'm concerned, is only saying that because that's what's been passed down from generation to generation.

Isn't rejecting old ideas what fuels development of society?

Have fun arguing my points. I'll check it again tomorrow or the next day.

------------------
Webbie/EIC
< http://boomgames.com >

Founder < http://tucb.com/ >

today they get married cause they're in love, they feel like it, they'll pay lower taxes, daddy'll pay for a big wedding..and then there are those who wanna raise kids together...

lots of things have changed, and whereas parents barely lived to see their kids reach adulthood before, those who 'stay together for the kids' and then get divorced at 40 seem to be more prevalent now.

not that i have any numerical data on this, i just looked around at friends/family.

------------------
kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

Now lets compare teaching to another job. How about someone in the forest industry. A Logger. They have to work all the time, out in the bush in whatever weather. That means in -40C, you still have to be out there, use a tiger torch to heat the belly-pan and get the machines going. And if your working and say a hose blows, then you get to slip on your thin cotton gloves, crawl out of the barely warmed up cab and change the freezing metal and rubber with a freezing steel wrench that just loves to adhere to skin. Add the usual wind that always loves to blow in the mountains and you have a nice situation.

Now say its the same day, but for a teacher, you would probably get the day off because it was too cold for school. or IF there was school you could sit in the warm heated school, drinking coffee. Damn.. how can those teachers cope?

-oh, incase you didn't notice, this has nothing to do with STD, Women or anything else.. just teachers.-

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

A psychologist would probably say that I'm using some sort of "sweet lemons' rationalization to convince myself that it's actually a good thing that I've never been in a relationship close enough to even consider sex, and that I'm displacing my frustration by accusing those with better social skills of being morally deficient... They might even be correct in that analysis.

I apologize to those who weren't "bed-hopping" who I may have offended by making my statements way too general. And as for the whole divorce rate thing, I still think it's a sign that our culture is really messed up but I guess I don't have an explanation for the causes.

------------------

but, like you said, teaching isn't actually work.

oh, and personguy: women don't work as hard as men. in a shitload of cases, they work a lot HARDER than men do. if you wanna pick apart certain fields that involve PHYSICAL strength, then maybe the men do work a little harder... and then again, maybe not. i've been a cook, worked on a dairy farm, done construction, and had an office job. in every single instance i was expected to produce the same output as anybody else who worked there. a box of crafco (tar to seal a road) weighs 50lb whether i pick it up or a male does it, and there will be the same amount of boxes in a truck whehter i unload it or a male does it.

if you're talkin "mental work", stuff like being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, stock broker, then the work done is pretty much the same for men and women. they're both expected to show certain performance to get promotions and raises, and often are expected to work long hours because salaried workers aren't paid overtime. then take into account that out of those professionals who are married, it's generally the women that also run the household and take care of the cooking, cleaning, laundry and other daily chores. if any of you guys out there take on some of this work, that's great, but often, it doesn't happen.

honestly personguy, when i read your statement that women don't work as hard as men because we biologically can't, i damn near pissed myself laughing. ok so maybe women aren't as strong as men when it comes to pro-sports, being firefighter, cop or soldier (sidebar: did you know the female body stands up to the G-force encountered by fighter pilots better than the male body? we've got more water, and it's not compressible)... but shit man, in the field i'm in, the females put in just as much work as the males. everybody pulls their own weight or they get left behind, and nobody gives a damn which bathroom you use.

hopefully, personguy, you'll gain some life experience which shows you how wrong you are to think that women are some kind of biological defect that can't do hard work.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

[This message has been edited by kuru (edited September 19, 2000).]

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Anywaze. Teaching is definately a hard job, and I respect the hell out of anyone who does it. Same goes for all the other mental jobs such as psycyotrist. And while it doesn't fit under the scientific definition as work, for the perposes of not cofusing people or something... job = work.

Anyway. Man argue that being a mother is DIFFICULT because of the mental worry, but cancel that out with the worry that EVERY man with a family feels (which is why, BTW, we die younger from stress anxitey related heart attacks), "Will I be able to put food on the table tomorrow? Will I be able to pay for my kids college? Will my wife be satisfied?"

I know... things have changed alot! And as much as more women are working = the less women are mothering, so men work stress STILL = mother stress.

Now, there ARE a shit load of cases where... whatever you said... bla bla bla, but that must mean theres a big-fat-dookie-that-won't go-down-even-with-a-plunger load of cases where... the oposite... bla bla bla.

I do realize that many more woman are working now, and that's GREAT. There's nothing wrong with that. I recognize that there are cases where ONLY the woman works, or the woman makes more, but they are considerably less likely than the viceversa.

Anyway. If you only understand one part of what I'm talking about... understand this. I'm NOT saying that the average WORKING woman doesn't work as hard as the average WORKING man (that would be impossible to prove (essecially without women going berzerk on me (and why do the WOMEN go berzerk? (it almost seems like they have something to prove) ) ) ), I'm compairing the average woman to the average man.

Whew... hope I avoided any stupidness...

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

as far as your statement that the reason men have a shorter life expectancy than women due to the fact that they worry about feeding their family, i think you're off the mark. one of the big reasons that men die younger than women is that their reproductive process is more taxing to their bodies than women's reproductive processes are. it was covered in my freshman year biology class when i used to be a pre-med student.

also, if you want to say "well a lot of women don't have jobs".. as far as married couples go, it's generally the woman who takes care of most of the household business. when her husband retires from his job, she doesn't get to retire from her 'job'. case in point, my mom and dad. he's retired. his life now consists of tv, newspapers, going to the grocery store, and changing the oil in the car every 3 months. she's still taking care of the house, making sure his coffee's ready when he gets up, cooking, cleaning, doing dishes, mowing the lawn, weeding the garden, etc. wives almost never get a retirement from housework, until they go into a nursing home.

don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that men don't work hard.. my dad just happens to be one of the lazier retired guys. but i am saying that if you wanna compare the average man to the average woman, you have to take into account that many of the things that are overlooked are actually work.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
one of the big reasons that men die younger than women is that their reproductive process is more taxing to their bodies than women's reproductive processes are.

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Hold on a second.. that sort of goes against common sense. Are you saying that carrying a baby for nine months and giving birth is actually _less_ taxing than the man's role in reproduction? I find that a bit hard to believe.

Perhaps what you mean is that dealing with hormones constantly rather than having the effects fade in and out in a cycle is what makes men die younger. That seems a bit more plausible, but since my Bio class in High School didn't go into this sort of detail on human biology, I really have no idea...

Having sex with a condom is like eating a steak with a bag on your tongue.

It sucks. Sure, I'll do it...especially in the first few months of finding a new woman. But if I trust her and know she is faithful, I'd rather get tested and have her get on the pill.

Oh, and one other thing: I'm a big connissuer of the female genitalia. If there's one thing I love to do, it's mowin'. I'll be damned if there's some sort of latex device to get in the frickin' way.

i didn't mean 'shooting off a load of jizz is easier on a guy than going through 40 hours of labour and squeezing a 10 lb bony watermelon out of a hole the size of a plum is on a girl.'

oh, and for the guy who'd 'rather just have the girl go on the pill.' the pill is not without problems of its own. it's a replacement of the body's natural estrogen with a synthetic source. it causes problems, like increased risk of cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure, and blood clots. thanks to my family's medical history, my risk of those things is high enough already, and i'll be damned if i'm making them any higher so my boyfriend doesn't have to wear a condom. it's pretty rude for a guy to demand that a girl upset the entire hormonal process of her body because 'orgasms are better without condoms.'

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

So GO WOMEN in the work force! I'm rooting for you! I'd like to see more of it! And you men kickin back with the kids... make it look as difficult to BALANCE a family as you can.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
oh, and for the guy who'd 'rather just have the girl go on the pill.' the pill is not without problems of its own...i'll be damned if i'm making [hereditary disease risks] higher so my boyfriend doesn't have to wear a condom. it's pretty rude for a guy to demand that a girl upset the entire hormonal process of her body because 'orgasms are better without condoms.'

---

Yeah, that would be me who wrote that.

I think you're a little edgy there, Kuru...it's not so much a demand as it is a preference. Think of it as a mutual favor for a couple. I don't march on in with a can of beer and a steel-toed boot and say, "woman! Upset that hormonal shee-it so's I can blow mah load!"

Heck, if my mate didn't want to take the pill, Norplant, or the shot...then I'd check out the male versions.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

my dad.. um.. once every 3 months he changes the oil.

as far as the pill thing goes, i took whiskey's post to mean 'i just tell the chick to go on the pill.' that's what i disagreed with. if it's a mutual decision, that's great.. more people should be responsible.

the reproductive thing had to do with testosterone being harder on the body than estrogen, and that men's reproductive years are a lot longer than women's.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

cooking = remove from package... place in microwave... push buttons...

cleaning = *NEW* shower mist! Spray after evey shower and it STAYS clean! Little round blue disks clean the toilet!

laundry washing = put in machine... put in soap... turn on... put in dryer... put in static guard... turn on... fold clothes...

furniture moving = it's your OWN fault if you feel the need to move it every friggin day.

carpet steam cleaning = call guy... give cupon and tip...

window washing = no way it can take more than 30 minutes to do the whole house.

ironing = close still need ironing?? Mabey once in a blue moon.

dish washing = dish washer OR 5 minutes

grass mowing, yard raking, snow shoveling, wall painting, car washing, and weed pulling = the only WORK done is nagging the partner to do it on the weekends. I've NEVER EVER EVER EVER heard of the stay at home person EVER doing any of these.

Oh, and don't forget that all those modern conviniences cost money... that get paid for... with money... that comes from... THE WORKER.

So, I ENTHUSIASTICALY encourage women to get into the workforce, so men can do the TERRIBLY taxing job of raising the children and taking care of the house!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Cooking does not always involve putting things in microwaves and pushing buttons, it includes a thing called a stove, and an oven and various ingredients, that is if you actually know how to cook...

As far as cleaning, have you ever had to clean a bathroom before? had to remove hard water and various other stains from your tub/sink/toilet, or had to wash a floor before? Every thing does not get cleaned with a quick spray of a magical cleaner or the drop of a little blue disk.

Laundry isn't that hard to do, it just takes time, and then you can't leave the clothes in the dryer or they will wrinkle, yes even those polyester suits that you must be wearing (i'll get to those later)

Carpet steaming most likely involves actually pulling out the carpet steamer and running it over the carpet, i know that's what i'm doing to my rugs when i finally get my apartment straightened out.

Window washing, most likely 15 to 20 minutes per window, depending on what kind you have. pull up window, pull out storm window, wash storm window, reach around to clean out side of top window, lower sash to clean other side of bottom window, etc etc.

Ironing, unless you're still wearing an entire wardrobe of polyester suits, then yes clothes do need ironing. Try this next time you dress up, walk up to a chick and say "Hey baby, like my clothes, aw yeah, all polyester, no need to iron these"

Household chores are alittle harder than they may seem, maybe when you get your own place you'll find this out, probably the hard way.

one, you must live under a rock... you seem to have no grasp of what it really means to maintain a house. and two, my mom DOES have a job. she works full time and still does all that other stuff. and as far as your belief that cooking involves nothing but a box and a microwave, that cleaning is 'spray the magic liquid here', that doing dishes takes five minutes.. i figure you still live somewhere that these tasks are taken care of for you.

i wish i could be there to laugh when you move out and have to learn really fast how to take care of your own home.

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa

I have a house, live alone, have a job...

I have to do alllllllllllllllllllll these damn things, which by the way ARE hard work, and DO take a lot of time. And still manage a social life.

This usually means that laundry gets done every OTHER week. Dishes get done when they HAVE to be, meaning I run out, or they stink. I usually let my grass ALMOST die during the summer, because lawn mowning, edging, weed eating are a pain in the ASS. I smoke, so dusting has to occur often. Sure I could just let the whole place fall apart, but since I'm single, if I bring a girl home, I like my house to be spot less.

We haven't even got into the maintenance of a house. Backed up sinks, garbage disposal going out, changing the A/C filter, dryer belt snapping.

Damn, I could go off on this rant FOREVER!!!

I absolutely LOVE having my own house, and I wouldn't trade that for anything, but I often drool and fantasize about how great it was to live in an apartment. Less space to clean, if something breaks call the apartment manager, no lawn to keep up, hell of a lot cheaper.

Man you need to wake up!!!!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

quote:

---

Originally posted by floyd:
But do you even care about HIV?

---

Ha! Funny.... Read the whole thread.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

From HIV, to Bag on jim, to jim apologizing, to RenagadeSnark saying just fuck anyone who will let you, to baggin on RS, to you'll never have a long-term relationship that way, to talking about the divorce rate, to ranting about men/woman and who works harder, to talking about housework isn't hard work.......... etc.... I'm sure I missed a few topics in there.

Not bad for a thread that's only 2 pages long.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

This message has been edited by jim on September 24, 2000 at 07:43 PM

Basically all the things you mentioned were weekly, and total up to VERY LITTLE "work" hours...

[Cooking does not always involve putting things in microwaves and pushing buttons] - yah, I actually do alot of baking with my OWN recipies perfective over the years! But here's the thing... when I sweep up crap at the warehouse, that's for someone else. When I make a cake or fry some bacon or make a huge omlete IIIIIII reap all the benifeits!

[have you ever had to clean a bathroom before?] - OF COURSE! AND IF IT WAS MY "JOB" TO CLEAN THAT (much less than once a month) I'D QUIT MY REAL JOB ANYDAY!!!

[Laundry isn't that hard to do] - so we agree! Remember, the premise was that women don't work AS HARD/AS MUCH as men.

[involves actually pulling out the carpet steamer] - what idiot would buy a carpet steamer!?! And besides... even so... who paid for it? (not your particular case... we're talking about stay at home VS worker)

[Window washing, most likely 15 to 20 minutes per window] - so unless you have 24 windows I'm still right...

[clothes do need ironing] - I've never ironed 1 article of clothing in my life, and I own NO polyester... so either you're wrong, or you've miss used the word "NEED"

I HAVE MY OWN PLACE! I HAVE MY OWN PLACE!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

"[Laundry isn't that hard to do] - so we agree! Remember, the premise was that women don't work AS HARD/AS
MUCH as men." If you had finished up my quote, you would have realized that i said that throwing the clothes into the washing machine isn't hard to do, however folding clothes takes a while, especially if you're folding a few peoples clothes.

"[involves actually pulling out the carpet steamer] - what idiot would buy a carpet steamer!?! And besides... even
so... who paid for it? (not your particular case... we're talking about stay at home VS worker)" Maybe someone who would rather buy a carpet cleaner once and be able to clean the carpets when they wanted to rather than pay out the ass for someone to come in.

"[Window washing, most likely 15 to 20 minutes per window] - so unless you have 24 windows I'm still right..." So you're saying you have two windows in your apartment, i have 5 in mine, so that's what... 2 and a half hours at least, probably more, and if you have a house then you will have more than 5 windows.

"[clothes do need ironing] - I've never ironed 1 article of clothing in my life, and I own NO polyester... so either
you're wrong, or you've miss used the word "NEED"" Do you just own t-shirts and jeans? if you have any button down shirts or slacks, you probably want to iron them or else you'll just walk around like a wrinkly bitch.

"I HAVE MY OWN PLACE! I HAVE MY OWN PLACE!" That's nice, It's probably not that clean though.

1) spray once a day, or hunch once a month... either way, not that much work (imagine if I worked once a month ...

2) SO WE AGREE, DAMN IT!

3) How much does a carpet steamer cost? (you might have a point here)

4) SO WE AGREE, DAMN IT!

5) I have SEVERAL suits and wear one at LEAST once a week... they look spiffy to me...

[It's probably not that clean though.] - You can't eat off the floor, but you can eat off the tables! How clean does a house have to be? It actually is pretty clean.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

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kuru
'if your children ever found out how lame you are, they'd kill you in your sleep.' -frank zappa