------------------
Take XTC, Then you wake up in the morning wondering "Wheres My Underwear?"

To quote my roommate: "I'll go to class when shit stops blowing up."

edit - There was no car bomb. CNN was wrong about that part.

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on September 11, 2001 at 09:01 AM

Any of you who have lost someone, I'm greatly saddened by your loss.

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

edit - maybe not

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on September 11, 2001 at 08:46 AM

I can't get near a TV

prime minister is gonna make another statement in a few minutes

fuck if ever theres a good enough reason to get rid of these countries with human rights abuse this is it.

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

Originally posted by ic0n0:
The U.S and U.K should destroy afganistan Iran and Iraq and palistine.

---

Stop blaming unknown partys... "The attacks are a consiquence of teh US policies in the Middle EAst." Just heard that.. Rumored to be said by an Islamic Gehad senior officer...

GODSPEED.....

edit: the london stock exchange has been evacuated too

This message has been edited by JLb_8 on September 11, 2001 at 08:46 AM

There's good and innocent people in those countries. A terrorist attack is not an act of war by a nation state. You only attack other nations when war has been declared.
If they can link it to a governmet, however, I'll be among the first to smile when they drop bombs on them, but till then go home to your guns and lock them up.
As for bin laden, you'd have to find him first to kill him. Don't you think they've been trying for years? Come on, the guy was Public enemy #1 on the FBI site...

After the collapse:

The pentagon:

edit - A second United Airlines plane just crashed.

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on September 11, 2001 at 08:59 AM

this doesnt mean they are targets though

quote:

---

Originally posted by SLATE:
Stop blaming unknown partys... "The attacks are a consiquence of teh US policies in the Middle EAst." Just heard that.. Rumored to be said by an Islamic Gehad senior officer...

GODSPEED.....

---

Ummm they took responsibility for it after the 2cd crash.

Abu Dhabi television reported it had received a call from the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine claiming responsibility for crashing two planes into the twin WTC towers overlooking New York harbour.

------------------
All that I know there was no God for me
Force that shatters all, absence of mortality

quote:

---

Originally posted by ASCIIMan:
A car bomb exploded at the state dept. The white house and captitol have been evacuated.

---

There was no car bomb at state department. My dad works there and just said that nothing has happened.

there is also another boeing 757 liner going from boston to LA that the FAA has said are "deeply deeply concerned about".

the national guard has been mobilized in pennsylvania. all the ROTC students are headed out...

NOW DO YOU GUYS BELIEVE ME? THEY DO THIS SHIT TO ISRAEL EVERY WEEK. NOW THEY ATTACK THE UNITED STATES. IT IS TOTAL BULLSHIT.

I imagine we will be deploying troops within 2 days to the middle east.

------------------
"Put the cheese on my bum." -Tom Green
-< PersonGuy >

Edit: CK get a grip ok the US isnt adjacent to a hostile country. but i do feel that it will bring the truth about israel home to a lot of people in america and the rest of the world.

This message has been edited by JLb_8 on September 11, 2001 at 09:05 AM

TOTAL BULLSHIT.

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
the national guard has been mobilized in pennsylvania. all the ROTC students are headed out...

---

My roommate's friend just IM'd him ~ 1 hour ago. Her boyfriend (who's a marine stationed in Okinawa) had just IM'd her and said he was leaving. Now. Because all the marines there are being ordered back to the US to take care of stuff...

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on September 11, 2001 at 09:07 AM

This was too well organized, and if I had to guess, I would say that more were planned. The plane that crashed near Pittsburgh was headed for an intermediate at DC's Reagan airport. There were probably more flights scheduled for this attack.

As bad as the loss of life is, the psychological damage is worse. This group has brought the U.S. to a halt.

Also, there is widespread celebration by many Palestinians on the middle east. That's just inhuman.

God be with us...

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark-Angel99:
How come {name removed} doesn't like you? I find you really funny :D

---

Never argue with and idiot...he may be doing the same thing

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on September 11, 2001 at 09:16 AM

"We want to tell the american children that the afganistan feel your pain and the american courts do justice."

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on September 11, 2001 at 09:27 AM

< http://www.jelerial.com/1011/ >

Can't get in touch with family in DC either. What the fuck is going on?!

Also i want to point out the yesterday there were flight delays to all east coast locations due to "flight control problems".

Now, to let the Wolf out.

Anyone that claims responsibility for these acts we should turn the keys on and just Nuke them.

When we find the fuck that did this ill bring the hammer and nails. Someone bring the cross.

I think its time we just take all these little fuckers, kick there balls between their teeth then shoot them in the back of the neck. the US could roll through the middle east in 28 days. I think its time to kick these sand squaters in the ass. Take their land and their oil and reduce their cities to rubble.

They have been fighting in their house and now they have knocked on our door. its time to answer the door with everything we have.

------------------
Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

and wolfguard get a hold of urself man killing everyone suspected of doing this will just create more trouble. i aint no peace lovin hippy though. when they do have good intel on who did this THEN they should raise their military to the ground but we dont want a bloodbath of innocent people on our hands. these people are already celebrating this crisis over there we dont need to give them even more hatred of us.

i know ur probably just acting out of sheer anger but if we were to actually nuke the middle east we would nuke a large majortiy of oil feilds in the process and then we'd be in even more shit.

my best bet? tactical air strikes on mass and i do mean ON MASS plus specialist ground force invasion to compromise communication and transport routes. block all shipping routes and let the fuckers panic as we take their sand from under their feet

jesus i only just realised that thew whole south tower had collapsed i just thought it was the tops of the two

This is an attack on Western Civilisation. It is shaking the roots of our world, and I think now it has become clear that the radical muslims (countries or individuals) are much more of a danger than we ever thought. Hopefully, something like this act of terrorism will not happen again, but peace may be reestablished on earth.

Tuesday, 9/11/2001, a day that will live...in infamy.

Time to break out the B-52 carpet bombers

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:

Can't get in touch with family in DC either. What the fuck is going on?!

---

IM me with your familys Phone #(darktmplr3). The local lines are pretty clear, but I cant call out of state.

Wolf, I have no pity for what the engineers behind this disaster get but we cannot just lay waste to all of the middle east. That would lower us to thier level. There are alot of innocent people that are just trying to live their life.

The governments that harbor or finance these terrorists should find the same fate as the attackers. Anyone having anything to do with something so barbaric has lost their right to inhabit this planet. Might I suggest the chinese death of 10,000 cuts.

------------------
~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

One thing I'd like to mention, however: no matter how repulsive and shocking this attack is, jumping to conclusions about who did this and why will get us absolutely nowhere.

I fully support reciprocity, but there are many precautions to take in advance. You can't just go nuking an entire country because there are terrorists harbored inside. Hell, promoting the idea of "nuking" anyone is frankly fucking retarded, as it not only a threat to the stability of world peace, but a threat to the physical safety of the entire planet (fallout, radiation, etc).

What needs to happen, after the designers of this attack are positively identified, is a thorough and harsh eradication of all connected parties around the globe, via incarceration or assassination. Of course, the problem is based in how such a process will take place; my guess is that we'll never know all the players involved. At least, not for certain. Furthermore, are we willing to make martyrs of these people?

Ugh. What a terrible day...what a shitty mess. I wonder what happens next.

quote:

---

Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:
The governments that harbor or finance these terrorists should find the same fate as the attackers.

---

You're entitled to your opinion, but I've been listening to a conversation on the radio that brought up some very logical points that many seem to be ignoring.

Just because terrorists live/are known to live in a certain country does not make the government of that country liable or connected to their actions. Please remember that Timothy McVeigh and his associates not only lived in this country, but were native citizens as well. Look at the Michigan Militia and the KKK. Look at the National Socialist Party (antebellum Nazi movement). These are all anti-national, terrorist organizations, by strict definition. Are you going to imply that the US condones their actions?

The point is that bad people - the scum of the fucking Earth - live everywhere, and come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. We can't necessarily blame a government just because terrorists live inside their borders.

I am a bit worried about one of my housemates. She is from the middle east (Bethlehem) and is always talking to her family on the computer/phone. I think they're very close. I'm going home after writing this to see if she's okay.

The racist bastards here better not do anything stupid. Not saying that Penn State is bad, but there has been quite a bit of racist shit around here lately. Though my faith in a God seems to be decreasing with each passing day, my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.

quote:

---

Originally posted by spOon:

Anyone is insane to attack the US. We got enough military, weapons, and nuclear nukes to knock out the world population 86 times. We spend 200 biliion each year for defense alone. Attacking the US is like asking someone to write your suicide note.

---

mate, its because people in america are so confident in their safety that shit like this happens. its not a surprise that people are calling this the second pearl harbour

quote:

---

Originally posted by JLb_8:
mate, its because people in america are so confident in their safety that shit like this happens. its not a surprise that people are calling this the second pearl harbour

---

We are confident for a reason. We are the most powerful society in the world. Of course it's a Second Pearl. "All we have done is wake a sleeping gaint and fill him with resolve." Admiral Yamamato. Right after the pearl harbor attack. He was right too.

The US doesn't take kindly to people who mess with us. There are few incidents like this. But most of the time we are confident because we are respected.

and shit theres still 1 plane out there unnacounted for

EDIT: HERE'S JOHNY! I'M BACK ! just wish it was under better circumstances

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 01:37 PM

------------------
All that I know there was no God for me
Force that shatters all, absence of mortality

as for this middle eastern shit, there's like people dancing in the streets that someone did this to us. i'm not prejudice or anything, but i say burn those fuckers...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Greasemonk:
You never know. Theres is just as much hatred for the USA coming from within the country itself as well as from other countrys. Our first instinct is to think its another country doing the shit. The terrorists might be US citizens who are trying to get back at the government like McVeigh.

---

If you want to get back at the government, you go after the government. The trade centers were not government targets, unlike the federal building which happened to house a daycare center. Also, you do it using a minimum of lives lost, rather than using a loaded airplane as your weapon. Anything else is just terrorism, done for the pure shock.

Americans don't think that way, but terrorist groups from the mid east do, just look at any typical paper in palistine for confirmation, and you'll see reports of people killing themselves for a cause.

Death Toll climbing at horrific rates.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:

as for this middle eastern shit, there's like people dancing in the streets that someone did this to us. i'm not prejudice or anything, but i say burn those fuckers...

---

they've been done in by so much propoganda that they think that we go to work and spend our lunch breaks designing plans on how to murder everyone of them.

My dad was in the city today... hes fine but it's gonna take him a damn long time to get home.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
[B], or perhaps if those fuckers were smart enough to understand certain economic functions they might target it, [B]

---

underestimating the enemys intelligence is a dangerous thing to do complacency is not always good

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:45 PM

I'm glad I believe in God, because otherwise how could anyone make any sense of this kind of thing. I'll be remembering those who died today and those who lived through it in my prayers.

They're saying right now the death toll could be over 10,000 people and rising.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
Prime Minister of Isreal Ariel Sharon is giving his statement.. but what i want to know is.. the passenger lists from those foiur flights.. find teh abu dahbi fucker on there.. you know they alredy know who did this shit...

---

Fake ID's perhaps? And I'm 100\% positive they already looked at the flight lists. A lot of shit is going on that we don't know about...

quote:

---

Originally posted by chmod:
[B]Imagine being on a plane and then finding out that it's being hijacked, and then flying another 2 hours knowing that your life is about to end

B]

---

i mean how can people just sit there knowing they will die and instead of everyone just rushing the terroists just sit there in some denial about their doom.

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:46 PM

also, the notice they just gave about all 24,000 pentagon employees have been evacuated.. you know there's still people down in them bunkers workin hard..

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
i mean how can people just sit there knowing they will die and instead of everyone just rushing the terroists just sit there in some denial about their doom.

---

What makes you think they were just sitting there? If they weren't already killed in the takeover, the probably had no idea of the destination, and were probably too scared to move. I know I would probably be to scared to do anything, particularly if the terrorists had shot a few people as demonstrations of their resolve.

Building number 7 has just collapsed...

go go go

palestinians are claiming credit and the gas is 5 bucks a gallon

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
Tom Clancy on CNN, stating it might not have been Islam's due to suicide against islamic religion, like going straight to hell...

---

Yeah well, tell that to the palestinian suicide bombers. In Islamic Jahad, holy war, I think they figure Allah will overlook a suicide that is done to further their cause.

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on September 11, 2001 at 02:27 PM

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:47 PM

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
they've been done in by so much propoganda that they think that we go to work and spend our lunch breaks designing plans on how to murder everyone of them.

---

you mean you don't? ..freak

my first reaction this morning when i woke up and got on the web was that is was a prank. Hackers took over a few major sites and made it up. Then I saw a picture of the plane exploding against the tower and though "no way, that is so photoshopped".

then i realized it was real, all i could think of was joining the FBI or CIA just to stop shit like this.

It feels like living in a Tom Clancy novel

------------------
You are what you drive
---
Buick Park Avenue: I am older than 34 of the 50 states.

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
heh, i don't doubt it was sandniggers that did it (absolutely no offense to any arab persons on this board, i'm mean, but not silly-stupid)... i was just stating what TC said... anyone else catch his crack on the stupidity of the media?

---

YOU can shut the fuck up.

I just heard a plan overhead... Sounded really oud.. Couldn't see it. Definately military...

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

Originally posted by ic0n0:
As for missile defense I doubt they would knock out commercial planes. I do not think all or most Arabs are bad just the ones that harbor terrorists.

---

what about the millions of muslims in the middle east who are cheering about the deaths of ~1000 american civilians?

...but the Berkeley Lab - part of the DOE - is still open? This is bullshit. I don't want to be here. They gave us the option of "taking a sick or vacation day."

Er, excuse me? THE FUCKING WTC AND PENTAGON WERE JUST BLOWN UP BY FUCKING TERRORISTS!!! HAS IT NOT OCCURRED TO MANAGEMENT THAT ALL ANYONE WANTS TO DO RIGHT NOW IS HIDE UNDER THEIR FUCKING BED?????????? AND THAT TELLING US TO TAKE A "SICK DAY" IF WE WANT IS THE MOST MEAN-SPIRITED THING WE'VE EVER HEARD?

There's only about 1/3 of the people who are normally here. Those who remain are not working - they're watching TV or talking on the phone to their friends and families - very little eye contact as people walk dazed thru the halls - conversations, when they occur, are in hushed tones - me? I keep sitting at my desk - staring at the monitor - then hopping up to smoke yet another cigarette - my mom has cancer, my family's falling apart, and anyway they're on vacation out of reach of the phone - all my friends are huddled together with their significant others - which I don't have - my roommate has gone to be with his family - horrible agony in the land of the doomed.

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on September 11, 2001 at 02:35 PM

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

Originally posted by aventari:
"no way, that is so photoshopped"

---

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:49 PM

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:53 PM

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:54 PM

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
i'm sorry folks, i just know that if i was there i would have givin my life to change the course of that plane... whether vain or not.. i'm not one to lay down and die.

---

It's not possible to predict how you would react in a situation like that. You might think that you could be the hero, but fear makes your brain play tricks on itself. There is just as much chance that you would have pissed your pants and accepted your fate.

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

This message has been edited by Der_Teufel on September 11, 2001 at 03:04 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by darksol:
who here thinks it was backed by a country? if it was i think it would either be indonesia or the middle east, thoughts?

---

indonesia??? i doubt that... america's biggest enemies at the moment are probably iraq, afghanistan and maybe iran. i don't know where you got indonesia from, though..

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

This message has been edited by Der_Teufel on September 11, 2001 at 03:07 PM

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:39 PM

Greenspan is probably having a heart attack right now. Bill Gross had a call with MSDW head today and it's BAD.. despite the 20 cars per pump and ŭ gas prices fiasco, the euro market is now going to cripple the american market (though am. market is not even in session). Equities are going to PLUNGE and a "relaxed" recession is going to turn into a full blown recession.

The fed HAS TO create a price blockade...for the first time in 70 years we'll have to price-fix.

You know...everyone hates the us: europeans, china, cuba, obviously the mideast...with no one taking blame and the pit that this throws the us into...not to mention the global advantage gained after today re international markets...it puts a big dent in the "Invincible US". VERY scary shit

I hear the market will be closed for a week. UNPRECEDENTED. Gross was saying he can't imagine anything worse than this for the market and the economy...

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
it's possible u.s. or israeli forces happen to know where bin laden is and are trying to take him out before he flees. even if it turns out he wasn't responsible for this, he has been responsible for countless other acts of terrorism.

---

So we think he may just be a scapegoat.

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

it's the end of the world... w00t!

and remember when we launched a counterattack on sadam last year in iraq. we didnt start a war then so it might just be there to test their response

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:40 PM

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

it's the end of the world... w00t!

---

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:41 PM

Right now, I've heard reports from CBC and CNN.

CBC has been saying that it looks like the missile strikes & artillery in Afghanistan looks as though they are coming from high flying airplanes.

CNN Reports that an ammunitions dump has been attack and it currently burning.

The shots of that plane sickened me to my stomach.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by ic0n0:
Ironically it's 9/11 today.

---

I was wondering about that ...

My housemate got an email from the International student office that pretty much implied that all international students should watch their backs just in case. And I quote: "the tragic events of today may provoke intense emotion in many Americans. Although we have no indication that you should feel concerned for your safety, we feel it is important to advise all international students to be cautious."

A friend's mom was IN the gdmf Pentagon - and she works on the side that was hit. She was okay though - was more towards the center of the building.

Hm, at least I don't see anyone picketing outside with "The End is Near" signs ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellraiser:
Yeah well, tell that to the palestinian suicide bombers. In Islamic Jahad, holy war, I think they figure Allah will overlook a suicide that is done to further their cause.

---

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:42 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
whats 11/9 (converted for proper calendar) got to do with all this? in fact what has todays date got to do with anything?

---

911 is a standard emergency number in america. If your being mugged, stabbed, burned, flooded, heart attacked, or struck by lightening you can call 911 and get the proper officials to the scene.

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:44 PM

------------------
"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

quote:

---

Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:
911 is a standard emergency number in america. If your being mugged, stabbed, burned, flooded, heart attacked, or struck by lightening you can call 911 and get the proper officials to the scene.

---

I'm sure he knows that, but they foreign countries see it as 11/9, which has no significance (or does it.) I think thats what his point was

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by JLb_8:
and has anyone wondered why the airlines havent made any form of statement. like as to the fact when they realised the planes were being hijacked whether they have identified any suspected passenegers what?!?!!

---

I'm sure the FBI is probably on that, but dont want to compromise thier search

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:33 PM

Every war the US fought, there were many civilian casualties. Many civilians NOT working in civilian buildings in Vietnam were killed, in Iraq, at least one hospital i know for sure was hit by a stray cruise missile. How can terrorists take down the "Invincible US" with just knives and cardboard cutters? The US can't retaliate against any particular group, since there are over 50 groups that would do something like this. All of you should know that MANY countries dislike or even HATE the US. The attacks in Kabul I bet are done by American terrorists. Maybe not by the US government, but most likely American. Who else would attack a poor small country like Afghanistan? If the US hits the wrong group, it will make the US look especially bad, and will spark a major conflict. Maybe if the US didn't impose sanctions on poor enough countries, or invade their space, they would be less hated. I think there may be American people working on the inside, because this attack happened to go over well. A lot of average people don't understand what the US does to other countries. In total, all in all, the atrocities the US have done are far worse than what has ever been done to them.

I think that not only this is sad but the attitude of the Arabs is even more sad. They think that when they do this in the name of Allah that they will die and for to Allah Paradise Inn I suppose. How sad to be killed my your own beliefs.

Bush is on his way back to DC to address us. He better have something good...

This is totally off the subject but are you really from VT? If so...

The HOKIES ROCK!

Ok I'm over it..i'm cool...

This message has been edited by spOon on September 11, 2001 at 04:01 PM

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:34 PM

prof just emailed us postponing deadlines and homeworks ...

------------------
You are what you drive
---
Buick Park Avenue: I am older than 34 of the 50 states.

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:35 PM

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by Der_Teufel:
The first time I saw the video footage at about 0930 this morning I didn't realize how much of the plane came through the other side of the WTC before it blew up. I've e-mailed my dad asking some questions, but I'm sure he won't tell me anythign cause most of stuff is probably classified or he doesn't know. In my opinion I would consider the pilot of the plane that crashed in PA to be somewhat of a hero. It's possible that, if he ditched the plane, he saved thousands of lives by doing this.
My roommate was asking what needs to happen for the draft to be enacted. HAHA

---

I'm willing to bet that it was shot down.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by EvilGenius:
*laugh* i'm waiting for small infomercials to pop up down there...

---

ROFL

Verison Head of Marketing: "Dammit! Get CNN on the phone! I need them to show more video clips that include our logo!"

------------------
"Put the cheese on my bum." -Tom Green
-< PersonGuy >

quote:

---

Originally posted by j0eSmith:
It was hit by a 767 at full power. What did you expect to happen?

---

At the time I saw it this morning the video they had was so bad it looked like a Leer jet (think that's the company). Assuming that that's what it was I thought that if a bigger plane hit it the whole upper part of the building would be gone.

------------------
"Put the cheese on my bum." -Tom Green
-< PersonGuy >

This message has been edited by PersonGuy on September 11, 2001 at 04:32 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Der_Teufel:
I've e-mailed my dad asking some questions, but I'm sure he won't tell me anythign cause most of stuff is probably classified or he doesn't know.

---

Honestly, I wouldnt recommend posting anything your dad says.. You never know who could be reading this...

SLATE

quote:

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http://kotisivu.raketti.net/wadez/ter.jpg

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LOL i know i shouldnt laugh but i cant help it

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:36 PM

Read my commentary. This isn't a joking matter.

quote:

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Originally posted by StanVanDam:
For you CS players...
< http://kotisivu.raketti.net/wadez/ter.jpg >

---

Is this funny to you?

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

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Originally posted by EvilGenius:
and i still cna't beleive people are blaming this shit on W.. come on people, this was in place long before W ever thought of being president...

---

The only thing I agree with you on.

quote:

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Originally posted by j0eSmith:
"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, two brothers torn apart by chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb.", "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning." - Nostradamus

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why is everyone quoting this shit! its moere ambiguous than a fucking horoscope. need i remind u that nostradamus predicted the world to end pretty much every fucking 3 years or somethign ridiculous

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:38 PM

< http://www.yafs.08002go.com/webcam/webcamremote.html >

its on news 24 so should be on all night

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

quote:

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Originally posted by EvilGenius:
if it's the wrong perons on the first try, fuck it.. go to the next one on the list

---

That would make us as bad as them. We need to get retribution, but we cannot result to terrorist acts to do so.

This message has been edited by L33T_h4x0r_d00d on September 11, 2001 at 05:13 PM

retribution, yes.. i agree whole-heartedly, and i just want them to pay. and pay hard... it's easy for someone like me iwth a lack of conscience to say he doens't mind the amoutn of innocent lost in finding the people whom are responsible... but again, i'm also smart enough to know that that's not what will take place, nor what needs too... let's just hope the actions that W takes are the right ones... and if not totally correct, the best to human possiblility, and american possibility.

Nostradamus.

quote:

---

Honestly, I wouldnt recommend posting anything your dad says.. You never know who could be reading this...
SLATE

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No shit, that's pretty obvious. I wasn't saying that I was gonna post what I'd heard from him.

W mentions Psalm 23 as well.. interesting.. thoughts?

That gives them leeway to bomb the entire country and say that the country was helping the terrorist(s).

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 11, 2001 at 05:58 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
For you CS players...
< http://kotisivu.raketti.net/wadez/ter.jpg >

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Yeah man its all fuct. Osama bin Laden was spelled all wrong.

---

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

interesting even if not real

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You are what you drive
---
Buick Park Avenue: I am older than 34 of the 50 states.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Yeah man its all fuct. Osama bin Laden was spelled all wrong.

---

WTF? Close to 50,000 people could be dead and your making fucking jokes. What the hell is your problem?

Hey j0esmith. Ill pay for your plane if you drop by Nova Scotia and crash it into StanVanDam's house. Just make sure you jump out then we can make fucking cartoons about him and his dead fucking family splattered and burned to death.

This message has been edited by L33T_h4x0r_d00d on September 11, 2001 at 06:28 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by aventari:
how do they know the planes were hijacked w/ knives?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:
Hey j0esmith. Ill pay for your plane if you drop by Nova Scotia and crash it into StanVanDam's house. Just make sure you jump out then we can make fucking cartoons about him and his dead fucking family splattered and burned to death.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by aventari:
how do they know the planes were hijacked w/ knives?

---

supposedly some people on the plane used their cell phones and called their families or something. i didn't think that could be done on a plane, but... that's what i heard.

She made a cell phone call to her husband and said that the hijackers had 'knives and knife like objects' and used them to subdue passengers and crew and force them to the back of the plane.

We know it only becase Barbara Olson was there. Rest in peace, Ms. Olson.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

So fuck you. American government is one thing, but the American people is something else. I have NOTHING at all against random American people.

Project Echelon, Carnivore, Vietnam, the spy plane incident, Japanese fishing boat full of university students, Korea. These are some events where the US has clearly done some wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:

We know it only becase Barbara Olson was there. Rest in peace, Ms. Olson.

---

She dies, Zahn lives. Fuck.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by aventari:
how do they know the planes were hijacked w/ knives?

---

reportedly 3 of the 4 flights had contact with someone on board, mostly via cellphone. They told about the shit that was going down. Also, some high ranking US official's wife was on board 1 plane and she called and told about it too. (http://news.excite.com/news/ap/010911/20/news-attacks-investigation)

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Project Echelon, Carnivore, Vietnam, the spy plane incident, Japanese fishing boat full of university students, Korea. These are some events where the US has clearly done some wrong.

---

And how many of the people in the WTC made decisions that affected any of those events? How many of the people in the WTC had anything to do with what happens in the middle east? I can understand the pentagon but not the WTC.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Yeah, I do feel bad about the WTC. Coming from the terrorist point of view, it would cripple the US economy (and others I think), which is what they want to happen. Still I can't think of any ways to justify hitting the WTC. I try to see things from both ways.

---

How the fuck does that justify making light of the great loss these people suffered?

------------------
Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

You can't totally deny this. There is partial truth in what this guy is saying.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Project Echelon, Carnivore, Vietnam, the spy plane incident, Japanese fishing boat full of university students, Korea. These are some events where the US has clearly done some wrong.

---

Echelon, Carnivore: Online surveillence.
Vietnam: A fucking WAR. PEOPLE DIE IN WAR!
Spy plane incident: I'm assuming your vague comment here has to do with the Chinese spy plane incident. It was UNINTENTIONAL!
Japanese fishing boat: Another fucking ACCIDENT!
Korea: An earlier war than Vietnam, this one had cleaner fighting.

How can you compare ANY of these incidents to what happened today or ANY terrorist attack!?
You CAN'T! An attack like this was planned and deliberate. Whoever planned this and carried the mission out, KNEW what the consequences of their actions would be - killing VERY many innocent people. Whatever their reasons were, they were WRONG.

So shut the fuck up until you pull your head out of your ass, StanVanDam, or we can all do it for you.

If you want to think like that, move to the middle east so we can proceed to drop bombs on your fucking skull.

edit: Directed at Stan, obviously.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

This message has been edited by j0eSmith on September 11, 2001 at 07:31 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Yeah, I do feel bad about the WTC. Coming from the terrorist point of view, it would cripple the US economy (and others I think), which is what they want to happen. Still I can't think of any ways to justify hitting the WTC. I try to see things from both ways.

---

It did not, nor will it cripple the American economy. Whoever planned this for sure had flawed thinking.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Sheikh Yassin, leader of the Islamic militant group Hamas, said "no doubt this is a result of injustice the U.S practices against the weak in the world."

You can't totally deny this. There is partial truth in what this guy is saying.

---

What the fuck? What "injustice against the weak"? Come on, tell me. The USA is a country that offers strong protection of it's citizens, yet also gives us FREEDOM. Where else in the fucking world do you get that? Not many places. We stick our nose in business it does not belong in, but that's because of our heritage. No body is of American descent. We are all from someplace else, which means we all have ties to our homelands.

If some civil war were to happen in Italy, I would want the US to get involved to try to solve the problem. That's what we are. Peace keepers. And some fucked up people get pissed off when thier terms aren't the ones that are settled on.

Fuck them. And fuck you. So fuck off.

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Sheikh Yassin, leader of the Islamic militant group Hamas, said "no doubt this is a result of injustice the U.S practices against the weak in the world."

You can't totally deny this. There is partial truth in what this guy is saying.

---

The United States has done more to help the weak than most other countries all over the world. And even if our country has done some wrong, it is nowhere nearly enough to begin to justify what happened today.

Asian markets just opened, and are allready down to their lowest point in 17 years.

Gas prices are up to ŭ/gal in some place in the states (same as Ū/litre Cdn)

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

The sad thing is that whoever did this (and I'm not implying it's the same person) had absolutely no concern for civilian life. That's what still gets me. If you have beef with a government...attack government installations. Ugh. I don't know.

I still haven't heard from my cousin in NYC. Another cousin left just yesterday, thank God. What a strange day it's been.

Still, I have to be somewhat objective about this. What could have pissed these people off so much that they would do something like this? What is the US really doing abroad?

It's absolutely no excuse for this disgusting fucking day, and I really want to see these motherfuckers pay for this, but I don't know if it will stop there. Seems like there could be a bigger problem. And it really scares me what that problem is...and how we're going to deal with it.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

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Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:
Well, the toll is up to 265 firefighters including the firecheif and assistant firecheif, and 85 police officers.

---

I also heard that the official count for the Pentagon was over 800 people.

quote:

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Originally posted by j0eSmith:
2-3 people arrested tonite on the NJ Turnpike, near the GW Bridge. Found with a van filled with Explosives

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cops are after a suspicious car on route 3 in NJ as well. Reports of a bomb being planted on the GWB (i have sources that say it was true) have also been circulating.

quote:

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Originally posted by SLATE:
I also heard that the official count for the Pentagon was over 800 people.

---

actually it was 100-800. 800 max.

that's fiddlesticks compared to the x-thousands killed at the wtc...

These men and women deserve the highest honour possible.

Rumors are all over the place that the pilot intentionally crashed into the field rather than a D.C. building.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
There's speculation here that the plane that went down in Somerset County PA was downed because the pilot refused to crash into Washington D.C.

Rumors are all over the place that the pilot intentionally crashed into the field rather than a D.C. building.

---

That was my suspection... That man had courage.

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
Rumors are all over the place that the pilot intentionally crashed into the field rather than a D.C. building.

---

Given the chance, I would've.

------------------
When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

shit ive been watching this crap since this morning in school. its so god damned depressing. all because these fuckin Palesitinians want Israel back, and they cant have it. so they send some kamakazis to hi-jack planes and run them into the WTC/pentagon. Shit.

if cluless george doesnt get off his ass and fire some damn tomahawks and smartbombs at Afganhistan (where Ben Laden is hiding) and Palestine, alot of people are gonna get pissy.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

quote:

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Originally posted by solid:
Rhydrant I hope you realize that's rather ignorant...

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It's easy for us on the ground to say that. However, until we dig up the flight recorders (and maybe not even then), we won't know exactly what happened on any of those planes.

It's rather unlikely the T's told everyone they were on a kamikaze flight. They couldn't see out the front of the plane; they had no way of knowing they were about to ram headfirst into the twin towers or the pentagon. What if the T's grabbed women or children hostages? Not knowing that you were in fact dead either way, would you risk the life of a woman with a knife to her throat without any idea what would happen?

quote:

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Originally posted by SLATE:
I'm gunna try to donate blood tomorrow... Godspeed

---

------------------
I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rhydant:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SLATE:
[b]I'm gunna try to donate blood tomorrow... Godspeed

---

O+ or o-? and its worth a shot.. I'm pretty sure I'm type O.

quote:

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Originally posted by j0eSmith:
Also, one offical reports that there was a Keyed Mic on one of the flights that gave investigators "some very good leads".

---

what is a keyed mic?

Any type of donation will do.

A keyed mic means a mic that'd been activated. Like the one in the cockpit was active so the ATC could hear things the mike was picking up

Personally, I don't feel as though I have much time left on this earth, so, just in case the worst happens.. Fairwell to all of you. If I'm wrong, which I hope I am, then good. But I just feel really uneasy in my stomach and I honestly think its gunna get worse.

SLATE

Everyone needs to just calm the fuck down, take a step back/deep breath, and try to take a dispassionate look at this. I told someone today that it was a very successful attack on the part of the terrorists, and that person got pissed off at me. I'm not being insensitive, it is tragic and horrible but all these people died. But that's no excuse to lose all sense of reason.

quote:

---

Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:

How the fuck does that justify making light of the great loss these people suffered?

---

Prime example. L33t, he was looking at a completely different aspect. Talk all you want, that's not going to matter on tiny ass little bit about the great loss that these people suffered. No one is denying they suffered a great loss. But people suffer great losses all the time, and if you just get hung up on the fact that this was a bunch of people dying and forget that it happened because some people WILLED IT to happen then you're totally missing the point. Justification for hitting the WTC is important. In our eyes it's very very bad and horrible because a lot of civilians were killed. If you look at it from their point of view (which is IMPORTANT) you get a much different twist on things where the benefits outweighed the costs. Also consider the fact that we're not dealing with a military body, but a terrorist faction. Terrorism has nothing to do with civilian/military targets, it doesn't distinguish. That's why it's called terrorism. Scary, isn't it?

For all the people who are so bewildered about how these people could do this with knives, ask yourself...would you endanger your life by attempting to attack these people if it wasn't in immediate danger? I highly doubt you would. So what these terrorists could easily have done is told everyone that the plane was being hijacked, and they would be landing somewhere to negotiate for their lives. Don't cause trouble and you won't die; your freedom will be bought by your government. That way everyone just sits in the back of the plane and awaits arrival at whatever destination. It's a lot different if you know what's actually happening compared to what's happened in your little world up to that point.

My third point is actually more of a question. That is, how is it that everyone says this event was extremely well planned? All of these flight times are available on the internet and without smuggling any weapons or anything else suspicious into the airport to get you arrested, you should be fine. The hardest part of the trip would be once the plane is hijacked, finding your way to wherever you need to run into. The way I see it, this could've been planned in a couple of hours. It was well organized, but not THAT complex. Part of it failed anyway.

I hope at least some of you can actually detach from your hysterical selves and give some sensical replies to this instead of just deciding i'm a cold asshole (which is not the case). Any thoughts?

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:

Just because terrorists live/are known to live in a certain country does not make the government of that country liable or connected to their actions.

---

Thats not what I meant. Im talking about any government that gives finances, arms, or ANY kind of aid to such people are just as responisble as the actual terrorist. I dont condemn egypt because osama bin ladin is known to have facilities there but I do blame the afghani government for contributing arms, trucks and currency to his cause.

I just saw this on another board. Not sure how true it is though:

quote:

---

United Airlines flight 93, (Boeing 757) Newark to San Fransisco. 38 passengers, 7 crew aboard. Departed Newark 8:01 a.m. Shot down by USAF F-16 in Somerset County, Pennsilvania 10:10 a.m.

United Airlines flight 175, (Boeing 767) Boston to Los Angeles. 56 passengers, 9 crew aboard. Departed Boston 7:58 a.m. Shot down near Camp David (exact location not disclosed) ~11:00 a.m.

---

To think we had to shoot down our own planes...holy shit. That's heavy.

EDIT:I live on the NJ coast near sandy hook....my father who was home at the time said he HEARD the explosion.

This message has been edited by DRUFER on September 11, 2001 at 12:24 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
United Airlines flight 93, (Boeing 757) Newark to San Fransisco. 38 passengers, 7 crew aboard. Departed Newark 8:01 a.m. Shot down by USAF F-16 in Somerset County, Pennsilvania 10:10 a.m.

United Airlines flight 175, (Boeing 767) Boston to Los Angeles. 56 passengers, 9 crew aboard. Departed Boston 7:58 a.m. Shot down near Camp David (exact location not disclosed) ~11:00 a.m.

---

Imagine the last thing you see is your own millitary plane firing a hellfire or sidewinder missle at you.

Also no one else has mentioned the car bombing on the FAA building in Leesburg Va. From the roof of our building in Tysons corner we could see the fire and smoke of the pentagon to the east and the smoke of the FAA building to the west. Also my father works at the state dept. in DC. I just talked to him and he said there was no car bomb, or that it was very small. The building didnt shake so he is skeptical.

< http://terror.joshstorz.com/ >

what i have been hearing is everyones agreement that americas lax security measures did contribute in a heavy way to allowing this to happen. i think that the US not being so used to terrorist attacks made them a prime target for such a massive scheme. so it might be that it was targetted because of that and that the general target was the whole democratic world. fucking ben ladin and the bastard taloban who cares if it wasnt them good enuff reason as any to put more effort into getting rid of 'em. President hasn't moved to the white house but to central air command. this is most likely just for security and communication purposes but if he feels like throwing a few cruise missiles (NOY NUKES FFS!) at sadam and the boys then i wont complain too much

The reasons of shooting down the planes is that we had the option of either taking them down or letting them crash into more buildings, killing more people. Yes, its extremely unfortunate, but it wouldn't have been done unless it was deemed necessary. Godspeed.

Anyone is insane to attack the US. We got enough military, weapons, and nuclear nukes to knock out the world population 86 times. We spend 200 biliion each year for defense alone. Attacking the US is like asking someone to write your suicide note.

Anyways they didnt suceed in PA, but man... they ruined my sunshine day.

Bush is in Omaha, Nebraska. He is gonna hold a confrence with DC via telephone and video.

Brokaw fell asleep and is drooling on his desk.

BTW, thanks to Britian

This thing is even more tragic than Columbine or Oklahoma on a matter of scale alone. It makes me sad to be part of the human race to think that anyone could be so malicious as to plan an attack like this, but it makes me proud at the same time to know that there are those who will give up days and days of their time to help their fellow man through this crisis.

quote:

---

Originally posted by DRUFER:
EDIT:I live on the NJ coast near sandy hook....my father who was home at the time said he HEARD the explosion.

---

Now, who does profit from this? Us. Despite of the loss of human lives think what this does for us: Bush finally has a solid basis to attack the middle east, and possibly even try to take it over if he feels like it. People had been talking of continuing peace talks in the Middle East; now the same people will be screaming, "BLOOD!" Also, note how well organized and well researched the action was. Almost to a point where it seemed like a well executed military action, no? Finally, can you think of any better way to hike our economy then war? Bush realizes that America is it's strongest when it's at war. His father realized the same thing.

Don't shoot the messenger, just take this warning to heart and think about it. Think about it logically. Believe me, I would love to be wrong. I would love there to be a single specific group that did this that we could bring to justice. Alas I doubt it's that simple, and we all should realize that at least.

*NOTE* I have, most likely, just been blacklisted.

------------------
~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

This message has been edited by DeadAnztac on September 12, 2001 at 04:05 AM

Make-a-War: Too much X-Files? Though at this point, anything is possible...

Palestinians celebrating: ... *sigh*

Students from the middle east: ... smart enough to not do something foolish like celebrate in public. Though I feel sorry for them ... there's a job fair here this week ...

Most of my relatives are in NY.. so far so good. I live a tic away from DC. Man the traffic. It's awful.

This REALLY PISSED ME OFF! They are showing people jumping from the twins... those people are about to meet their fucking deaths! And their showing it on National TV! Don't they have any respect? MG.... I'm gonna go email NBC, and ABC.

Not only should they hunt down the bastard that did this and nuke him out of existance and the goverment that protected him back to the stone age, they should find every terrorist and their camps and bomb them into dust too. I dont care if you have to bomb entire countries into the stone age. I dont care if there people had anything to do with it. If the people of the country are cheering our deaths in the streets then they too are supporting the terrorists.

We have been taking it on the chin from these maggots for years and just wagging a finger at them. We as a people have had enough.

Its time we put a stop to all these little fucknuggets once and for all. I dont care if we have to kill every single person in the middle east to make this stop.

and you little, sniviling, whining, fucks that thinks this is a bad thing because we are more civilized than that. Fuck you. These bastards are not civilized and they need to be delt with. The carrot has not worked in the past. Fine, bring out the big stick.

------------------
Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

DA: you ask why?
to show the rest of the 3rd world you CAN hurt the US, without bombs or guns or such, just a knife, a flight timetable, some basic flight skills and severe dedication to your cause.

Just a few points to mull over.

*Anyone noticed how well the attacks were carried out. I mean, the towers were hit form opposite directions even though they originated from the same airport. The gash in the first tower show the aircraft hit at a banked angle. The video of the second shows the same.

*Someone on tv commented they looked like they were swerving. Not so. They hit to cause maximum damage structurally. A diagonal impact would cover more floors of the building vs horizontal impact whaich would have been easier to achieve. The resulting damage also took out the supporting corner nearest the other tower. The planes were just from takeoff - fully fueled: lots of guaranteed fire, of which momentum would carry to the far side of the structure before igniting.

*The planes hit at different heights, almost similar to the opposing cuts a feller makes on a tree to weaken it if you treat the towers as one unit.

*Time of the attack. Shows some military/spec ops training by the planners. Used to create maximum disruption. Rush hour, both street and airport, would have made their job easier and resulted in more collateral damage with people at work (not lunch) and emergency services being delayed. Law enforcement/military reactions delayed due those in authority just arriving at work, adding to paralysis of reaction through surprise. Disruption of related industries/organisations such as stock exchange. An evening attack would have not affected gold/oil prices the way they would. Bush could have frozen the markets overnight to prevent it. Shows good analysis and appreciation of US economic reaction.

Next:

*The level of organisation doesn't have to be high. (As in a national level)All you'd need is a flight timetable, some knives and dedicated people.

*Synchronised attack. You just need to ensure that your people are all airborne on their scheduled flights. You could even use cell phones for that. They work in the air, the victims are proof of that.

*The big issue here was security. Very few people involved and the fact that no-one knew about it. Would suggest the top level decision from any organisation and absolute secrecy between those involved. You'd only want those doing the job involved in this. This shows you don't really need that many people to do the job.

*Training: MS flight sim? Some suggest no skill and some say they were trained pilots. I say basic piloting skills. With Flight sims, I can fly a plane into any of the targeted buildings easily countless times and from different angles prior to the event. They're all big, easily reached, easily identified from other buildings and close to all major flight paths.
The pittsburgh rumours suggest that the terrs were in the cockpit otherwise they would have landed with a locked cockpit, regardless of losses in the cabin. Rumors suggest the pittsburgh plane crashed with autopilot on. Suggests that the pilots had already heard the fates of the other planes over the guard/atc/company channels and decided to go down instead of doing the same. Also that the highjackers knew enough to point an already flying plane in the direction of a large building, but not enough about avionics to remove such a setting, particularly if they had just killed the pilot. Kudos to thos brave pilots.

*Why American Airlines? Security. Some companies follow more stringent rules than others. With a knife, you'd want to get into the cockpit of an already airborne craft and kill the crew. I've been on South West flight where I could lean ove and see the runway through the open door of the cockpit whilst landing. Very lax standards.

*As pointed out, most people would rush knife weilding hijackers. The crew were dead I say. I also say that because a good pilot would realise what would happen hitting the WTC and would have gone for the river. We'll prolly discover they were dead before impact.

Conclusion. This was probably done by a very small, VERY trusted part or break-off from an existing organisation. I won't suggest an action by a foreign nation, but won't dismiss it.

I do have some questions.
Judging by how well the buildings were damaged to cause failure, (see above) some engineering knowledge would be needed. How easy is it to get hold of plans of the WTC structures?
Is there a link between the preceeding day's share plummet and the attack being immediately after a'la Clancy's 'Debt of Honour'?
Were there any events on this day in history that might have motivated it or was it just another day to do it.
Doomsday groups like Aum Shinriku? Anyone dismissed them? They like nothing more than the end of the world and have the motivation to put it into practice. What easier way than to rely on the US's public's temper and their history of retaliatory strikes to start a war in the middle East?

Anyone else notice the Bush statement? (EG did i think) Odd to quote a christian reference by the leader of a country that bans school prayer? Psalm 23. Written by the king of Isreal, a king which had ordered or participated in conquering the lands now in dispute.

Bush is going too get tough on international terrorism. Does this mean we are going to see a stop to the US dollars financing groups like they did for the IRA? The US is not innocent of these types of actions.

Sorry if I offended anyone or sound insensitive, but I have to think like a surgeon here whilst analysing it. You have to block out the injured body while trying to see what's wrong with it.

This message has been edited by WillyPete on September 12, 2001 at 07:10 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wolfguard:
I dont care if you have to bomb entire countries into the stone age. I dont care if there people had anything to do with it. If the people of the country are cheering our deaths in the streets then they too are supporting the terrorists.

---

And there's absolutely NO innocent people in those countries right? You didn't cheer when people died in Iraq? No-one in America said 'Damn right!' when the ANC/PAC used to bomb the living shit out of us in So. Africa. (regardless of their options, I won't get into that argument. it's not their reason here, it's their actions I'm not condoning.)

quote:

---

We have been taking it on the chin from these maggots for years and just wagging a finger at them.

---

Not as long as we in Europe have had it. America has ONLY JUST seen what it's like to be terrorised. You guys had no problem watching US dollars buy bombs for the IRA. Look up the Omagh bombing.

quote:

---

Its time we put a stop to all these little fucknuggets once and for all. I dont care if we have to kill every single person in the middle east to make this stop.
and you little, sniviling, whining, fucks that thinks this is a bad thing because we are more civilized than that. Fuck you. These bastards are not civilized and they need to be delt with. The carrot has not worked in the past. Fine, bring out the big stick.

---

You know you could probably translate this in arabic and change 'middle east' into 'America' and I guarantee some guy over there has said those words.
What do you do when you still get shot at after 'using the big stick' dropping conventional bombs? Nerve agents? Biowarfare? (Yes you have them, and the US won't sign any treaty to stop developing them) Nukes?

By dropping nukes you nullify ANY nuclear treaties America has EVER entered into. You make a laughing stock of any future attempts by the US to stop nuke proliferation in other countries. You invite the whole islamic religion to attack westerners EVERYWHERE. They wouldn't stand for blind retaliatory strikes by the US/NATO. You would unite ALL of arab nations against Israel and the west. Bye bye cheap gas and the US way of life. You turn the US into an International war criminal unmatched even by Hitler, Hussein or Milosevich.

I'm not pointing the finger at you guys and saying you're wrong to feel this way or that your loss is nothing, but this attitude is wrong.
It's feeling like your kid sister got raped in broad daylight and now you want to drive home for your shotgun to shoot ANY guy with a penis. That's wrong and you know it. It's the bully's way of dealing with it.
You guys have the time, the resources and the skills to clean this up the right way and the whole planet bar a few souls is behind you. Don't misuse that trust by acting out of rage. Lead by example.

This message has been edited by WillyPete on September 12, 2001 at 08:03 AM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frosty:
Prime example. L33t, he was looking at a completely different aspect. Talk all you want, that's not going to matter on tiny ass little bit about the great loss that these people suffered. No one is denying they suffered a great loss. But people suffer great losses all the time, and if you just get hung up on the fact that this was a bunch of people dying and forget that it happened because some people WILLED IT to happen then you're totally missing the point.

---

Very true. But please have a little respect for the dead. I am one of the first people to crack a joke about something but that CS picture was in VERY poor taste.

Anyone hear anything about the black boxes? Oh this is chilling. They are getting cell phone calls from people trapped in the rubble, begging for help.

They found a car at Dulles that is most likely driven by the terrorists. It had Arabiac flying manuals, and copies of the Toran. It had a VA lisence plate. They towed it and is under investigation.

I'm actually a bit ashamed that the joke didn't appall me as much as I know it should have.

This message has been edited by WillyPete on September 12, 2001 at 08:00 AM

All my classes were cancelled.

At least 50 companies have cancelled attendance to the job fair this week.

I was at a candelight vigil last night. There were people there who have lost relatives and family. I have not been able to reach my relatives in the NY area. Nor have I been able to reach a good friend who lives there. There were a few things said that the mostly christian vigil that made me want to stuff the guitar down the speaker's throat. Let us grieve for once, don't say "God is awesome" "God has taken a bad thing and made it good" I know they want to turn negatives into positives ... but now is not the time.

Now what? WW3? I certainly hope not.

Sorry, I'm just a bit caught up with everything right now. I'm just rambling.

---------------------
"The show must go on"

Fuck. This is not good. I'd love to see justice meted out on those responsible but I don't want a war.

I have a really bad feeling about this. Last time I felt this bad, JFK Jr. died in a plane crash the next morning.

I'm frightened. Honestly. I am.

I don't think a hasty reaction by the US would be a good idea, we need to find out exactly who was behind this and who helped them, and wipe their memory from the face of the earth. But we don't want to start WW3, at least I don't. We've already declared war on those who did this, lets find out who they are and take care of them.

I wonder what will be done at the site of the WTC buildings. I kind of hope that it doesn't get leveled and turned into a park or something, we should build trade centers there again to show those who did this that they cannot topple American pride by toppling the symbols of capitalism.

I do think however that no one will feel the same about America, and we might loose some of the freedom to travel that we have enjoyed to this point. I certainly hope that airports around the country and around the world learn from this and tighten their security so you cant even take a pin onboard an airplane.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:
You know you could probably translate this in arabic and change 'middle east' into 'America' and I guarantee some guy over there has said those words.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:

What do you do when you still get shot at after 'using the big stick' dropping conventional bombs? Nerve agents? Biowarfare? (Yes you have them, and the US won't sign any treaty to stop developing them) Nukes?

---

What ever it takes. Im more for a conventional war but if it takes a nuke to make these fucknuggets realise that enough is enough then im all for dropping one. though a FAE(Fuel Air Explosive) would work just as well in this case

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:

By dropping nukes you nullify ANY nuclear treaties America has EVER entered into. You make a laughing stock of any future attempts by the US to stop nuke proliferation in other countries.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:

You invite the whole islamic religion to attack westerners EVERYWHERE.

---

Hello...been happining already

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:

They wouldn't stand for blind retaliatory strikes by the US/NATO. You would unite ALL of arab nations against Israel and the west. Bye bye cheap gas and the US way of life.

---

So, we take their land and their oil and make it cheeper yet for everyone. No more of this opec shit of cutting production so they make more money.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:

You turn the US into an International war criminal unmatched even by Hitler, Hussein or Milosevich.
I'm not pointing the finger at you guys and saying you're wrong to feel this way or that your loss is nothing, but this attitude is wrong.
It's feeling like your kid sister got raped in broad daylight and now you want to drive home for your shotgun to shoot ANY guy with a penis. That's wrong and you know it. It's the bully's way of dealing with it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:

You guys have the time, the resources and the skills to clean this up the right way and the whole planet bar a few souls is behind you. Don't misuse that trust by acting out of rage. Lead by example.

---

we have lead by example long enough. Its time to make examples of some people.

------------------
Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

May they rest in peace

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wolfguard:
So, we take their land and their oil and make it cheeper yet for everyone. No more of this opec shit of cutting production so they make more money.

---

Hahah I was just telling a friend about that yesterday! Though all this really did make me think ... the US can be quite a bully at times ... (think Native Americans) ...

------------------
When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

Another quick question i'd like to ask, is about all this immediate information that we're finding. We have this car, we had that van, we've got people from Boston, some house that might have been a hijackers house... There's two points i can arise from a conspiracy theory...

Is everything we've found a decoy? Are we supposed to beleive that we're going to find them this quickly? I would like to think so, but i doubt it. If this was a small part of a faction, i'm sure they wouldn't have cared to leave all their shit behind, because hey.. they're dying anyway. Now in all the crimes i've ever committed (which if you've paid attention to some of my other posts you might be able to guess... ) it's not about the crime committed, it's about how to not get caught. I kinda think that all this information that's being flooded by this small group is really set on purpose to throw off the idea of whom it really could have been... it's a longshot, but i do have confidence in our investigative bodies to take deep breaths and come to the proper conclusions.

I also want to know why the Taliban is begging America not to bomb Afghanistan... this confuses me, because the whole time the Taliban is anti-america, and wants to show their supremacy over America, why would they cower now? Didn't they realize that any attack that could have been remotely placed on them would require a massive retaliation? I honestly think their fucked, because I know their not begging us to spare them as if they had nothing to do with this. Also, if they are begging us to not bomb afghanistan, they're either trying to hide something inside that country, or it's a pleaded cry to direct the US somewhere else... where, i don't know... but they'd better start tellin, cause i'm sure they're just buying time to move this Bin Laden fella out of there...

Ok enough rambling, i've got homework to do...

on a wuick last note to Willy, the funny thing is, i haven't completed Tom Clancy's "Debt of Honor" but i've been reading it now for a while... and as much of America my first reaction was, "shit, this is just like a clancy novel." i didn't know it was like the one i was reading.. thanks for giving it away. :-P

quote:

---

Originally posted by t|nt|n:
I just want to extend my sympathys to all of you in the US and to say that we in Ireland are having a National Day of Mourning on Friday to remember those of all nations that dies in the attacks.

May they rest in peace

---

Thank you...

Stupid computer... GAHHH

Frosty: Not cold. Slightly chilled.

Calm the fuck down, every one.

Not that MUCH we can do bout it. As in... It already happend. Help where you can. Do what you can. You can't change the past, just learn from it.

Surgical strike good. Mass bombing bad.

This wasn't a thing you and your buddies decide to do on a weekend. 40ish people, at least 4 with piloting/navigation skills. From one continent to another (most likley). Then I'm thinking that they were a bit nervous. getting all those nervous people on one plane. Kinda hard.

I can't go through life serious about EVERYTHING. I like to be happy/cheerefull. If somthing isn't like I like it I change it. If I cant change it, I do what I can and get over it.

Planes crashed buildings collapsed people died. That is unchangable. Do what you can to help. Don't get hysterical. It doesn't help.

---Insert flames here---

This message has been edited by justcozz on September 12, 2001 at 12:37 AM

i'm sorry ladies and gent's... i haven't read teh UBB code for links or picture or anything yet... i'll do it later..

------------------
I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

In my opinion contingency plans of this scale where never even contemplated. To me its more of a scene from a bad action film than anything else, and the astronomical death toll will be remembered for a single act. I'm not pointing a finger, i'm not saying "nuke the assholes" i'm just saying find who did it and bring them to justice. If anyone in the UK saw the ITN news tonight (12th), they would have seen the other side of Palestine, and how horrified some of them where. The initial joyous pictures (and i dont know if America has seen them) made me sick to my stomach thinking that this kind of thing would bring them pleasure. All i can say is that i hope whoever did this is hiding, very very very well because he WILL have hell to pay. If W takes his word, and targets the coutry as well as the terrorist, the death toll is going to be higher because they will bomb the citys, they will kill lots more innocent people. Personally, i would rather see this sick S-O-B rot in jail for the rest of his miserable life, having to live with however many people he killed, than have someone walk up and shoot him in the back of the head. I would like to see whatever country is harbouring him/know who it is bring them to justice and show the world they've got the balls to do it.

K - Rant over. Insert flames blah blah blah...

-toes

quote:

---

Originally posted by chmod:
supposedly some people on the plane used their cell phones and called their families or something. i didn't think that could be done on a plane, but... that's what i heard.

---

also i think slate is on the berge of a nervous breakdown cos he has seriously flipped out over this. SLATE it ISNT the end of the world london got 100 times more fucked than this in WW2 by V1 and V2 missiles and they were acts of terror. its just u not used to liveing in a country thats free of terrorism and suddenly shit like this happens on you back door. anyone who lives near or in london has become almost accustomed to terrorist activities its just cos ur not used to it that you panic.

also no-one has thought of the fact that this might have been done not by terrorists but by people trying to get the message through to the free world that shit is getting out of hand in the middle east and that they want retaliation by framing well known groups.

anbd i'm fucking sick of all of congress going on about "oh i'm sorry for the loss" then startin up bullshit about how america will not be beaten we have come out of this thing with heads held high these terrorists have failed in their attempts to frighten us...erm where the fuck have these people been the last 48 hours just fucking admit that america isnt as safe and happy as u make it out to be. people should realise things like this can happen everywhere and after a time they will come to look out for such things happening again.

and i am REALLY pissed off that they did all this with knives. people can go on all they want about "oh you dont know how you'd act" "they might ve killed people already" these people had just fucking knives..not machettis! if this ends up being 100\% confirmed that thats all they had i am fucking ashamed that people didnt do something. whats the point of all this if we're too afraid to do anything in the face of death. is this what the human race is made up of people who're too scared to stand up for themselves?

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Vigilante on September 12, 2001 at 03:13 PM

------------------
When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beldurin:
I don't think that this is over, and God help us all if I'm right.

---

Here's what worries me: if I were a terrorist, and if I really wanted to attack the US, I wouldn't just launch one attack. I'd use something like this to knock the country off balance, and then hit them with something completely different from a completely different direction. Like, say, a biological attack on LA or some other west coast city. Sort of a one-two punch kind of deal. I think the government anticipated something like that, which is why they called out the CDC.

But an equally credible hypothesis would be that the worst second blow to the US that could be struck would be to get them to attack an innocent country, to make us look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world. And if these terrorists knew anything about the US they would know that we like to solve things with our military (especially under a Republican leadership) and that when we do so it can easily become a huge fiasco (ie Vietnam). Right now we have the backing of the world community but I worry that we may do something to lose that support by over-reacting or mis-reacting.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vigilante:
Think it through, whiskey. Risking your own life for a just cause is one thing, and I think many of the people on those planes would have done so had it just been their own life. But if there are two snarling, scruffy arabs shouting at you in a language you don't understand while holding screaming women and children to their chest and knives to their throats... would you really charge them bare-handed?

---

Uh, WTF?

#1 - I didn't post that.

#2 - The cell phone callers said the hijackers spoke in English.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 12, 2001 at 03:06 PM

EDIT: someone might want to start a new thread for this soon so it doesnt get fucked up like the "post ur pic" thread did
------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 12, 2001 at 03:43 PM

It would make much more sense to herd all the people to the back of the plane, the reassure them that all you wanted was money and that noone would be hurt. Throughout the flight, tell the passengers that negotiations were going well. That way, you have a scared but probably docile group of passengers right up until the last minute.

Calling these people cowards for not doing something when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about is not only arrogant, but ignorant.

STFU (pardon my French and shit)

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

The vast majority of hijack situations end peacefully...I don't doubt that the passengers were reassured it would be all over if "no one tries anything funny," or some other terrorist cliche like that.

Would you cause a stir if you were told that? No, you'd shut your ass up and wait it out.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
hell if it happened that way then yeah. but i did say if that was 100\% how it happened. i'm just pissed off if no-one tried anything whatsoever

---

Threatening emails to Arabs and Muslims as well.

Is that really neccesarry?

< http://web.onetel.net.uk/~dark_knight_bob/smackdown.jpeg >

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

quote:

---

Dear friends,

I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX
to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of
emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New
York City.

My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being awakened by
phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to contact our daughter
at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade
Center.

I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower
imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out,
leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live.

It was a sick, horrible, frightening day.

On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist
incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people dead, both there and
at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was
timed to occur at the same moment.)

I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up
too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live... a fluke, a
mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the
grace of...

Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I
walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine,
and I know all will be well.

Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security:

* At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The
counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get on" --
without a ticket!

* At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just bought at
the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector,
I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the
x-ray machine. I tell him "It's just a sandwich." He believes me and doesn't
bother to check. The sack has gone through
neither security device.

* At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to
catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag --
no one knowing what is in it.

* Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the
time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the
terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander
wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an
airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal.

* I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion
brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us.

Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines
consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops ŭ.75 an hour to make
sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my life is worth --
less than the cost of an oil change.

Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle
(the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around ฟ,000 a year in
annual pay.

That's right -- ฟ,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until
recently, Continental Express paid a little over ฝ,000 a year. There was
one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the
welfare office and applied for food stamps -- and he was eligible!

Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is.

So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is
taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing -- the
bottom line and the profit margin.

Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the
same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only
response is -- that's all?

Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the
"terrorist threat" and today's scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama
bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn't add
up.

Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a
desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo
jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three
targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?

Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political
fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to
want to kill themselves today?

Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but
FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know.

What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin
Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin
Laden!

Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!

Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it
all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and
his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces.
It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we
taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against
us.

We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing.

We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the
1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me.
Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!

We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent
people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our
day one single bit.

We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with
our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador)
that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and
are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.

Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy
from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of
ex-military guys who hated the federal government.

From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that
possibility suggested. Why is that?

Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in
getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the
all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to hate when the
object of our hatred doesn't look like us.

Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the
military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear any more talk
about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one
priority: our self-defense.

Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure
when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have nice
running shoes?

In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He
withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban
conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it,
and Baby Bush has blown it all.

The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of
"God Bless America." They're not a bad group of singers!

Yes, God, please do bless us.

Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did
not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did
so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New
York, DC, and the planes' destination of California -- these were places
that voted AGAINST Bush!

Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity...

Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our
contribution to the unsafe world we live in.

It doesn't have to be like this...

Yours,

Michael Moore

---

I'm not attacking you or saying a desire for retaliation is wrong. I want retaliation and I want to see terrorism go away.
To make it go away, you have to make poverty, politics, hate, love, energy, everything go away. Everything that drives these people to it.

You know as well as I do that the best way to combat it is to cut their supply lines. Turn off the money tap.

Regardless though, the US has NO claim on anyone's oil but that in America. You can't take it from sovereign states. Most of the oil comes from our only allies in the middles east. That's just rage talking.
You can't claim to have your freedom attacked and deny other innocent people of theirs.

I want retaliation and results, but I want to see it the proper way and the right way. Don't drop to their level. Any anger vented toward islamic people or nations, regardless of past sins, is just what the terrorists want. You think they just expected the damage to end when the fires got put out? No, they want to hurt you in the most personal way possible. If you let them they'll take your humanity, your mercy, your desire to protect the basic rights you and others enjoy as Americans and to throw them away on a wave of hate and passion. You become no more than the same vicious dictators killing women in Afghanistan for the simple act of revealing the wrong piece of skin. They want people to act on rage and kill other Americans in their places of worship or homes just because they pray to a different direction. Causing those people to experience what they (the terrs) may have experienced and take their own retribution, in turn, against the Americans that persecuted them because they thought it might be a moslem that did this. Seeing their (the terrs') enemy kill one another in their own camp would please them immensely.

I've heard you speak before. I know you're speaking out of frustration of inaction.
I know you hate the wait. Always the wait. Old soldier s know it well. While those in charge talk and decide, you know in your heart who is to blame and that all you've trained for is ready. To be used.
To be let loose.
But you also know as well as I do the value of specialist men and women. The snipers, nowadays of not just bullet, but also mind and technology. One such person can dominate today's troubled areas better than any carpet bombing or missile strikes would do.
Let them do the work.

One turncoat found in these organisations is more sought after than any amount of ordnance fired on a 'suspected' village hiding place of such groups. Let them be bought. It's 'hearts and minds' all over again. That's the only policy that works against such people.
Some folks/nations may look past the violence committed by terrorists normally and lend them aid in what they consider a 'good cause'. But this has sickened the hearts of everyone, and that aid may cease. Don't destroy what little good came out of the washing away of so many poor people, with throwing a blanket of anger against anyone of a certain creed. America would lose all that turn of heart in one day's indiscriminate bombing.

NATO waits. We've cast our lot with you and will lay it all at America's door to help.
Let the right people sort it out.

Violence is NEVER the answer. Both sides have to agree upon peace, or the fighting will just continue. I'm sure you can think of many cases. One story I think of is that a real long time ago in Vietnam, these 2 villages fought with each other for generations. Killing each other back and forth and shifting the blame back in forth just doesn't work. These 2 villages eventually became peaceful with each other, and when both sides agree on peace and maintain it properly, then the conflict is mostly resolved. The US is definitely NOT getting anywhere by saying that they will hunt down who did this and punish them. They will just fight back, and the cycle continues. There has to be a way to agree on a certain peace.

------------------
simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

At this point, I can't even feel anything until I know if he's dead or alive.

Whatever happens, we've got to make it clear to every terrorist in the world that they are an endangered species and will soon be extinct. Since they all communicate, and all share information, I consider them all guilty.

The strange thing is, I can't even feel pissed off. I just have this logical knowledge that they did this act of war, and that we must declare war on them. It's time that terrorists learned that we are the United States of America.

Don't tread on us.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:
We still don't know who the bad guy is for certain. Yet.

---

------------------
I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

Something must be done. Quickly and efficiently.

Just a question, how many of you 18 and up would be willing to go into the service, though there probably wouldn't be a draft, if we went to war with a country or two?

these are small groups, not nations

------------------
You are what you drive
---
Buick Park Avenue: I am older than 34 of the 50 states.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

edit: very disturbing

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 12, 2001 at 07:06 PM

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rhydant:
HOly shit!

---

Holy fucking shit!

What I wanna know is why I can't see the plane at all.. the way the audio sounds makes it seem like it was right overhead.. Also, is there another video of the first plane, perhaps from some type of roof camera monitor thing?

btw, this has nothing to do with anything, but it's probably because i've been watching so much news the past day and a half....

that girl whitney casey on cbs is cute.

::runs for cover::

So what's the rush? The retaliation will come soon..

the only thing we as a country can do now is wait, our investigative teams, and intelligence are the best in the world, and now we need to rely on them to make proper and accurate decisions about who's responsible.. once we've got the information, all of it, then we can decide on how to act... i await the information as much as the next man.. and now that we've got NATO in on it.. we should be able to squelch a lot of the main terrorist factions around the world... lord have mercy on them, for we won't.

Exemplary diction there, fella. Scholarly words and sound advice.

The other 3 hijackings and attacks were very well coordinated time-wise. Within 30 min. each.

The forth plane was on its way to DC (Reagan), but crashed near Pittsburgh, way out of time phase. If they were so coordinated on the others, why didn't this one arrive sooner? I have 2 comments about this.

1.) It didn't arrive b/c the pilot crashed it on purpose. The other 3 pilots had to have been dead before impact, but I would bet that they were kept alive until they were near the city. Why? You have a group of 5 to handle the plane. You kill the pilot and now you only have 4 to handle the plane and one to fly. Why not leave the pilot alive until the near the end.

2.) I believe that the 4th plane was deliberately late. Why? After the first three, what would the military have to do to another rogue airliner heading towards DC? Exactly, shoot it down. Therefore, if you're the terrorist group, you've achieved 3 things. To stop a nation, where do you hit it? It's government center (DC) and it's financial center (WTC). The third thing they would have accomplished is forcing the American military to act against its own populous. Truly terrifying, ne?

I don't think that this is over, and God help us all if I'm right.

For the last 2 centuries Americans has been the guardians of democracy, but who will guard the guardians...?

Heheh...nice one.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 12, 2001 at 12:34 PM

the problem is, getting the Taliban to hand over bin laden. but they wont do this, mainly because if they do, all the palestinians and arabs will be out raged, start and uprising, and the Taliban will be no more.

so i guess the next thing would be to find Laden himself, and bomb his encampment. problem there is, we dont know where in afgahnistan to look. i guess my 'bomb first, then bomb again' plan might not be a good idea after all.

oh, and who said that 800 people died in the pentagon crash? i thought it was ~350.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
< http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/57/21620.html >

Heheh...nice one.

---

Hm...

I really had no idea what to think about this at the time, it was just sort of some sort of odd event, like when you hear about earthquake in California. I just didn't know what to think of it. SO we went to a building with a television and see collapsed buildings in New York.

Even now, looking at the collapse of these things makes me sick to my stomache. Not because I know someone who lives in NYC. Not because I have been to NYC. But, more because someone had the [u]gaul[/u] to actually attack the United States of America. The missing persons toll in New York is around 4600 now, with 94 confirmed deaths. Even if no one was killed, even if this terrorist attack was a total and complete failure, and even if the only thing we ever heard about this was some intercepted phone call by the NSA, it dumbfounds me how someone would even dare to think that they can actually destroy American lives for some stupid fuck religious extremism makes me so incredibaly angry. If I ever saw Osama Bin Laden (but we're only 90\% sure he did this...yeah I don't really care) I would rip his throat out, and urinate on the dead, bloating corpse.

What is most amazing to me, are some of the world-wide statements that have been made, most notable to me between NATO and Russia.

I could rant and vent for pages and pages, but I'll spare you all my loathing for certain peoples in the world.

BTW, CK, I completely agree with you about Palestines condoning (don't try and tell me Arafat doesn't, he has made hardly an effort to stop these extremists) the terrorists in that part of the world.

I'm done.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

Any country acted against unifies and stengthens their resolve against such attacks.
NATO have enacted the 5th article of the agreement - never before done. Effectively this states that a member state can apply for assistance in the case of an attack. It also implies that any attack on a member state is an attack on ALL NATO member states.

This means we are with you one hundred percent.

Everyone thinks of glory and rushing off to kill these guys, but who you gonna shoot? Bin Laden has been on the FBI front page for years. Don't you think the US wants him?

The best support you could EVER give your country is to stand behind any decided action patriotically. This is no political issue here like some of the Balkan states.

It's going to get dirtier before it gets better. Some of you screaaming for heads that were not directly affected by loss from the WTC attacks may lose some dear friends and relatives in the forces when this happens. Do not mock their sacrifice by making judgements regarding those that send them into action. All the armed services are going to need to know that the folks back home are behind them whatever they are asked to do. Do not go against the leaders a few months from now when servicemen and women working close to the potential targets become targets of reprisal too. Remember your willingness to throw American might at the shadows when you count the cost.

That's all these guys are. Shadows. They represent no-one but themselves or their ideals. You can't put a skin colour on them, you can't stick a religion on them. You can't stick a nationality on them and bomb a dot on the map and hope they'll go away.
They're everywhere where people feel set upon by those who had power to decide NOT to hurt them when they were weak. They're where people go hungry or lose loved ones when bombs fall astray or bullets hit the wrong people.They're made when they pick up the cartridge that held the bullet that ended a loved one and the marking on it reads: "Made in USA" or "Made in England" or "Fabrique en Francais". (yeah, I know they don't actually say it, don't split hairs. you know what I'm getting at)

Think of where terrorists get their motivation to kill innocent people. They get it from hate. They hate to see people hurt them and their own when they are powerless to stop them. How did most of USA feel on the evening of 11/9/01? Something like that? You can see that acting upon hate like that and hurting other people without thinking would make you a terrorist as well if you view it like that, yet everything about us tells us in our hearts that we're not like them. Why not? What makes us more special than those extremists. We believe in freedom. They believe in something else. Doesn't our belief in freedom allow for them to believe that?

Anyone sanctioning violence against another purely for beliefs or revenge is a terrorist. Got to take away their reason to hate. It's hard to hate the person who feeds you, or heals your sick, or relieves you of injustice. That's our target. That's what we need to achieve.

This in: < Bin laden held in Afghanistan. >

< Some people fought the hijackers >

My respect to them and their families. Brave men and women indeed.

And a london reporter expresses how a lot of us feel < here >:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
to whomever said "violence is not the answer", "we can't go down to their level", etc etc, you're fucking wrong. in order to stop terrorism from happening we have to do retaliate on such a level that these countries will be terrified. we have to make them piss their pants when they hear "U.S.A.".

---

You sound exactly like a terrorist yourself.

Bombing the heck out of a country won't help at this point.

If Bush did bomb afgahnistan now, it would be 10x worse than what happened in NY.

------------------
Windows 95 -n- (win-doze): a 32 bit Extension to a 16 bit Graphical Shell of
an 8 bit Operating System originally coded for a 4 bit Processor by a 2 bit
company that can't stand one bit of competition!!

Catknight's plan doesn't make sense. Bombing Afghanistan is stupid, it will show the world how the US can't handle situations properly. They are poor enough as it is over there, it isn't worth it to bomb them. I guarantee if the US bombs Afghanistan, no one will be greatly satisfied. The consequences just won't be worth it for the US.

quote:

---

Originally posted by WillyPete:
That's all these guys are. Shadows. They represent no-one but themselves or their ideals. You can't put a skin colour on them, you can't stick a religion on them. You can't stick a nationality on them and bomb a dot on the map and hope they'll go away.<snip>

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Willy Pete has hit it on the head here.

I am inflamed. I am speechless from the pure turmoil of my emotion over this...this atrocity. However, The US can NOT strike out blindly.

The US has some of the premier detective and forensic resources available in the world. Despite the necessary political ties that the FBI has, I am confidant that it will ultimately find the Truth of what happened, who did it, and make that truth available to everyone. (By the way, I don't prescribe to a bit of that conspiracy nonsense e-mail that Whisky posted--if anyone even CARES, I'll post why)

When we know the Truth, and ONLY when we know the Truth, should we strike. We should strike with the laser-like precision that the US has perfected, and more importantly, we should televise the strike. We should say, "We have proved that Joe-Bob Nutcase committed this act, along with this specific Nutcase Group #27, and here is the proof. Here is where they are located right now, and here is Joe-Bob's hideout. Watch this, Joe-Bob--express package delivery from the U.S. of A!"

On a totally different note, I would like to bring to light something that I have not yet read on this thread: I am bursting with pride over the American people's immediate response to this crisis! Think about it--we, as individuals, are giving our money, our time, even our own blood to help out total strangers. Politics, for the past two days, have almost ceased to exist. Democrats, Republicans, and Independants are united in a common goal and a common purpose. Despite our faults, our generosity makes our country great.

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--Jynx

I used to be a kleptomanicac, but I took something for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jynx:
The US has some of the premier detective and forensic resources available in the world.

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your intelligence should not rely on itself to solve this as it isnt exactly the best out there

quote:

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We should strike with the laser-like precision that the US has perfected,

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hmm like you did when trying to shoot down scuds in the gulf war. despite the president saying that some 90\% were shot down it was barely 10\%

and cruise missiles are not as accurate as you might want to think. several civilian areas were bombed by accident plus even our own troops came close to being shot by freindly fire

edit: the world should not back the US in ANYTHING that the decide to do as to give in to emotion and not to follow using a clear head is a path to disaster. just because america was affected the most shouldnt mean that they should decide what the best solution is. bush says about leading the strike against these people. he should be the LAST person leading this thing. america is NOT the only one affected a significant majority of people in the WTC were britons as new york and london are virually twin citys in financial terms. they frequently have personael from each country moving between them. terrorism is a global problem and should be a global solution

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 13, 2001 at 01:38 PM

On the one hand, doing little will be an invitation to terrorists and the enemies of the USA to do more of this kind of stuff in the future and the US and europe I know are yearning for some ass kicking to be done to those responsible.

On the other hand there is the repercussions that seriously need to be considered. I'm sure we've all seen the videos of the palestinian people partying in the street. These are not the people responsible, but it is an indication of the society that bred the people responsible. There is a large anti-western feeling in those parts of the world, and caution must be exercised to ensure that in eliminating the current threat to the security of the west a fresh generation of extremists are not bred.

The space between these two constraints, if such a space exists, is where the response must lie.

This message has been edited by DuSTman on September 13, 2001 at 01:39 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
The ONLY way to prevent terrorism is with terrorism. We have to kill their women, their children, their families. We have to bomb their cities, their factories, their hospitals.

---

Many of these terrorists are after the US just for that reason.. Cause we killed their women, their children, their families.

..just a thought... if we do this justly, but decisively we will be Ok I think. Countries will see what we've done and we can set an example so the world doesn't plunge into chaos...

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~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

This message has been edited by DeadAnztac on September 13, 2001 at 01:58 PM

Or if we go and carpet bomb woman and children they'll hate us forever, never trust us again, the worlds peace making nation will no longer be trusted, and perhaps we will show what the terrorists expected all along, and what might be the ACTUAL sad face of America today...

Food for thought.

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~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

Go read the interview with Osama Bin Laden himself (linked on first news post). The terrorists hate us for a reason. We have been meddling in their disputes for years, selling arms to both sides, among other things. If you think that they hate us for no good reason, please remove your head from your rectum and think again. It's easy to look at their methods and label them as crazy, but they're not. They're not stupid either.

I support putting pressure on nations and governments harboring known terrorists. I do not support more needless killing and destruction. The sad fact is that Bin Laden may have a point. Historically, Americans refuse to open their eyes until they are hit very hard in the face.

quote:

---

In your last statement, there was a strong message to the American government in particular. What message do you have for the European governments and the West in general?

Praise be Allah and prayers and peace upon Mohammed. With respect to the Western governments that participated in the attack on the land of the two Holy Mosques regarding it as ownerless, and in the siege against the Muslim people of Iraq, we have nothing new to add to the previous message. What prompted us to address the American government in particular is the fact that it is on the head of the Western and the crusading forces in their fight against Islam and against Muslims. The two explosions that took place in Riyadh and in Khobar recently were but a clear and powerful signal to the governments of the countries which willingly participated in the aggression against our countries and our lives and our sacrosanct symbols. It might be beneficial to mention that some of those countries have begun to move towards independence from the American government with respect to the enmity that it continues to show towards the Muslim people. We only hope that they will continue to move in that direction, away from the oppressive forces that are fighting against our countries. We however, differentiate between the western government and the people of the West. If the people have elected those governments in the latest elections, it is because they have fallen prey to the Western media which portray things contrary to what they really are. And while the slogans raised by those regimes call for humanity, justice, and peace, the behavior of their governments is completely the opposite. It is not enough for their people to show pain when they see our children being killed in Israeli raids launched by American planes, nor does this serve the purpose. What they ought to do is change their governments which attack our countries. The hostility that America continues to express against the Muslim people has given rise to feelings of animosity on the part of Muslims against America and against the West in general. Those feelings of animosity have produced a change in the behavior of some crushed and subdued groups who, instead of fighting the Americans inside the Muslim countries, went on to fight them inside the United States of America itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Osama Bin Laden:
you guys are missing the point. these Americans HATE US. we aren't going to make them hate us more by striking back. we have to make them shit themselves at the thought of one of their people attacking the people of Islam. we have to fuck them into oblivion, so that the Americans themselves go after their own government.

---

Connect-the-dot Disclaimer: I am not say Bin Laden or his tactics are good. I'm pointing out that others may have already felt the way you do on the other side of the fence regarding your own country's actions. The UK is not blameless either, and I'm not offering to throw any stones first.

How many more orphans do you intend to create to become future vessels of retribution and terrorism?
There's a very fine line between attacking the perpetrators and attacking the people of Islam. Right now the organisers of this are isolated. All of Islam stands aside from them. But hurt ONE innocent islamic child and ALL of them will unite against the west.

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

yikes... congress wants ฤ billion for reliefe efforts and what not.... holy shit.

another buildings gonna come down...

shit. this is depressing.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
i'm getting a scary thought about some kind of domino effect regarding all these buildings

---

that's what i was thinking too... on the news they said the American Express building was in danger of collapse. And that is a big building.

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Oh nothing makes me sadder than when the agent lost his bladder in the, Maaaatrix.

Violence is the answer.

If We sit back and take a complacent attitude towards this, it will only happen again.

Benjamin Netanyahu compared this to the Battle at Midway. Osama Bin Laden is only a squadron leader, and in order to stop these extremists we have to sink the carriers. Palestine. Afghanistan. Iraq. The list is quite large and we -all- know that it will continue if the threat is not eliminated.

'We' is not only the United States. It is not only NATO. It is every country in the world that wishes to stop terrorism at the source.

Russia and NATO have agreed upon each other to actually work together to stop this. Russia and NATO. Fourty years ago, the creation of NATO was to stop the spread of communism. Now, the same people NATO has fought for decades are joining together.

Terrorism has seen complacencey for years and years. Palestine has Trainging camps for small children to teach them to be suicide bombers. The Taliban protects the same people that destroy Not only Destroyers and Embassies, but national landmarks.

A line has to be drawn, and asking nicely has failed. It is time for action to stop the spread of these extremist ideals. Treaties and Peace Talks do not work against people who never show.

No one like war. No one likes death. No one enjoys doing what has to be done, and that is extinguish the source of these attacks on the free world.

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TheTaxMan:
Osama Bin Laden is only a squadron leader, and in order to stop these extremists we have to sink the carriers. Palestine. Afghanistan. Iraq. The list is quite large and we -all- know that it will continue if the threat is not eliminated.

---

Ok, lets just say every fuckin Palestinian, Afgan and Iraqian is evil. Real IGNORANT way of thinking. There are EXTREMISTS in these countries, I agree. BUT THEY AREN'T ALL BAD PEOPLE. Might I make a note. The news shows only 1 sided information in many ways. Most TV companies are owned and run by what? RICH JEWS. I have nothing against jews, but, perhaps they are making this look good for the US and Isreal and bad for their enemies. There is a lot of 1 sided information. Yes, its a tragic event. yes, people should be punished, but who am I to decide if innocent people should die? Noone. Who kills innocent people on purpose? Terrorists! Has the US killed innocent people? YES, we've killed INNOCENT muslims. Perhaps this cause the extremists to hate the US? Probably!

You see how we hate them? Thats how they feel about us. CAUSE WE CAUSED THEM HARM. You are acting like an extremist/terrorist by sanctioning the attack of 3 countries, because you don't like them and think they are all terrorists.

(YOU doesn't mean anyone in specific.)

SLATE

BTW, I'm not condoning the use of nuclear weapons. I am against using them in just about every way.

It's my opinion that if you people want to just live on like nothing happened, and make a 1/2 assed effort to stop this, then go live in Canada where it isn't likely to happen (again).

Also, Slate makes it sound very much like it's us or them. Well fine, don't pick a side. I for one am not going to sit idle while everything this country is founded on is ripped to shreds by terrorism. I've never killed anyone. I don't like punching people, but when it comes to the defense of the American way of life, yes I put it above other countries. That's the entire point. We live in the land of the free, and home of the brave. These groups are trying to take that away from us and we don't have to stand for it.

One more thing:

quote:

---

"Osama Bin Laden":
you guys are missing the point. these Americans HATE US. we aren't going to make them hate us more by striking back. we have to make them shit themselves at the thought of one of their people attacking the people of Islam. we have to fuck them into oblivion, so that the Americans themselves go after their own government.

---

Fuck that. If any American agrees with that shit I'll personally ride you out on a rail. You want to live in fear? You want to allow these people to "fuck us into oblivion?" If that's the case, well fuck you right in the ass, and get the hell out of the country. He's dead wrong. I hate is extremist organization more than I ever have hated anything in my life.

Continuing on that line of thought, CK's post makes sense. This has done nothing but fuel the US.
------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

This message has been edited by TheTaxMan on September 13, 2001 at 10:58 PM

Now people of these smaller countries call us the oppressors of them because we support their enemies... we only support what is what we beleive to in the best interests of freedom.. and that Israeli v. Palastine shit's been going on for thousands of years... and incase they havn't realized it yet.. we're hlping the winning side.. cause the Israeli's and Jews or whomever deserve their land and if anyone remembers that thing called the Bible, fuckin with God's people just ain't cool... so they can get pissed at us all they want.. they can deal with it...

America is the greatest superpower on this planet... that gives us the right to do whatever the fuck we want, when we want to do it... we don't step on everybodies toes, because we're not a big bully.. but we are a self appointed big brother.. whether they like it or not.. we're there, and we're going to stay, why?, because we said so.

Which has EVERYTHING to do with this situation. Look what we have in America - free education, lots of cars, lots of nice roads to drive them on, TVs, computers, stereos, beautiful women... and quite often our biggest worry is how we look.

Meanwhile, in the Middle East, a lot of people aren't real sure if they'll be able to eat tonight. And in every village, there's a TV showing reruns of Baywatch.

Now do you understand why there are some very angry people over there? 'Cause I sure as hell do.

This doesn't make terrorism right, but it gives us a pretty good reason why it's happening, and a pretty obvious way to relieve it. Hopefully the majority in this country will finally pull their asses, and go "hmm... gee... maybe it's not about WE'RE RIGHT AND GOOD AND THEY ARE WRONG AND EVIL... maybe we should tell our lust for blood to fuck off, and focus on fixing the goddamn problem... ain't that what they call Yankee Ingenuity?"

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

edit: grammar mistake made me contradict myself
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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on September 13, 2001 at 12:39 PM

Most of those people can't even read. They're peasants, for fuck's sake!

Do you really think they even know what capitalism and socialism ARE? All they know is we have a lot of cool shit, and they don't, and they don't see any chance of HAVING that cool shit. It's easy enough to whip 'em up into a frenzy and tell them that if they can't have cool shit, at least they're holier, and to prove it they will try and kick our asses back to the Stone Age.

Give a hungry man a choice between cash and faith, and he's gonna pick what he KNOWS will put food on the table and a TV in his living room. Survival is a much older instinct than faith.

Or to put it more cynically, Greed pretty much wins over everything else.

Mr. TaxMan, my question for you is - do you want to create MORE pissed off motherfuckers, or do you want to get RID of them? We can't just go bomb an entire culture just because a few of them pissed us off. If nothing else, I like Persian rugs, couscous, and hashish.

I know this is hard to believe, but Those People are just like us. We're just more educated. It wasn't that long ago that some crazy Europeans decided they'd like to take over the world. We kicked their asses, and then we educated them. Now they make awesome cars and AMD Athlons and drink a lot of beer.

I just KNOW cr0bar is going to come along and bag on me for reinvoking the White Man's Burden... but you know, I liked living in a world where I didn't have to worry that some shithead is going to blow up my building. Plus it's no longer the White Man's burden - all cultures are involved in this problem.

As for Africa - that's an even tougher problem than the Middle East. Dunno what to do about that one, but it sucks... I'm having an 80's flashback - We are the World, We are the Children, We are the ones to make a brighter day, so let's start givin... there's a choice we're making, we're savin' our own lives, it's true we'll make a better day just you and me...

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on September 14, 2001 at 12:49 AM

it's easy to point out the consequences without the actions, and then blame the united states for bullying these countries. iraqi's can't fly planes over their own air space and we impose sanctions on them. ohh no we're so evil! help those poor defenseless iraqi's! WRONG. They invaded a foreign nation, raped and pillaged their people, so we fought back for them. THEY ARE PAYING THE PRICE OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS. The same goes for afghanistan. Either bomb them into oblivion or blockade them till they starve.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cr0bar:

In your last statement, there was a strong message to the American government in particular. What message do you have for the European governments and the West in general?

Praise be Allah and prayers and peace upon Mohammed. With respect to the Western governments that participated in the attack on the land of the two Holy Mosques regarding it as ownerless, and in the siege against the Muslim people of Iraq, we have nothing new to add to the previous message. What prompted us to address the American government in particular is the fact that it is on the head of the Western and the crusading forces in their fight against Islam and against Muslims. The two explosions that took place in Riyadh and in Khobar recently were but a clear and powerful signal to the governments of the countries which willingly participated in the aggression against our countries and our lives and our sacrosanct symbols. It might be beneficial to mention that some of those countries have begun to move towards independence from the American government with respect to the enmity that it continues to show towards the Muslim people. We only hope that they will continue to move in that direction, away from the oppressive forces that are fighting against our countries. We however, differentiate between the western government and the people of the West. If the people have elected those governments in the latest elections, it is because they have fallen prey to the Western media which portray things contrary to what they really are. And while the slogans raised by those regimes call for humanity, justice, and peace, the behavior of their governments is completely the opposite. It is not enough for their people to show pain when they see our children being killed in Israeli raids launched by American planes, nor does this serve the purpose. What they ought to do is change their governments which attack our countries. The hostility that America continues to express against the Muslim people has given rise to feelings of animosity on the part of Muslims against America and against the West in general. Those feelings of animosity have produced a change in the behavior of some crushed and subdued groups who, instead of fighting the Americans inside the Muslim countries, went on to fight them inside the United States of America itself.

---

he goes against himself there, the whole western government and the western people. if it is the government then why kill thousands of workers? it is not a government or military place. bin laden may have a point, but he is a hoypocrite (and a dead man/coward)

Iraq has a dirty evil leader who kills his own people, we stopped him from gaining more people to kill and more land. and fuck him, he can't be good then he can't fly his goddamn planes end of story.

American Government has fucked up, in many ways, and thats all any other country looks at. well fuck you, we've helped a hell of a lot more than we have hurt. our missles hit some civilian house, sorry bout that we didn't mean to do that. but still you rub it in, the us blah blah, the us blah blah.. i do believe NATO was with us on that one? So STFU, we didn't bomb civilians on purpose, and that arguement should never have been brought up, fucking assholes (ya you, the ones that think it is a good example of how bad the us is)

maybe an appeal or something, a formal request for some sort of change with a list of things you don't like (lets face America will always be there), but what happen on tuesday has no excuse. more blood will be spilled and most of it will be on the terriost side. you think America is a bully when its just trying to help, just wait till we point the finger of the people responsible. nukes aren't the answer, neither is bombing the counrtys the hold the men. i think we need a full out goddamn ground invasion, so they can see our faces when we kill them. people are gonna die either way, atleast we wont kill as may civilans with stray bombs.

one more thing, you people need to watch your mouth with the raceist comments, we have someone here that is from that region and i don't think he deserves to hear shit like that (i only saw 2 posts like that so i don't think it is a problem)

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
What we call "terrorists" may be called "heroes" or "martyrs" in their homeland. America has invaded their land, putting their nose into everything, imposing their lifestyle upon them, its no wonder Americans are hated. These people don't want American influence on their country. In case you don't know, the CIA trains terrorists in other countries. If the US wants to stop terrorism, first stop their own use of terrorism. Iraqis can't even fly in their own damn land. Pretend you're an Iraqi. Wouldn't it piss you off that foreigners control your land, tell you what u can and can't do? That would make me really mad. The US needs a new way of handling things. Also, an attack against US is NOT an attack on NATO. The terrorists' main intentions are to terrorize America, because they're the ones that pissed them off, not Canada, maybe UK, but not all the other NATO countries. US is just saying that to rally support from other NATO members. I have to say Bush was too quick on promising revenge.

---

This is a crock. Germany and Holland have both arrested people in their countries that are members of the same terrorist organization. I don't give a fuck if they're martyrs in Afghanistan and Iraq. The point is they killed thousands of Americans on Tuesday and whatever fucked up religious belief these extremists have should not be allowed to taint the world.

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

This message has been edited by TheTaxMan on September 14, 2001 at 02:30 PM

I'll be the first one to say that US foreign policy isn't necessarily the greatest, but that still does not justify terrorism. That question should not even come into consideration, terrorism is evil and that's that.

We all know why it was done: someone had a bone to pick with the US and decided to pick it by attempting to strike fear into the hearts of the American people. That out of the way, lets nail the fucker who did this already, and be done with it.

All you pro-terrorists can go fuck yourselves. When I get my gun and uniform, don't express any devil's advocate feelings around me about these cowardly acts (to use the presidential term) if you value your safety.

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

quote:

---

We all know why it was done: someone had a bone to pick with the US and decided to pick it by attempting to strike fear into the hearts of the American people.

---

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simultaneity is not absolute. So just because you think i'm wrong, from my frame of reference i'm right!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
oh thats mature of you calling anyone who doesnt want to kill innocent civilains pro-terrorists. and you keep proclaiming that we've always had the best intentions. well how do we know that our intentions for the middle east have been the right ones?

well the government has barely started its investigation into all this let alone finished it so unless you've got some amazing source that your hiding from us all how the fuck do you know why this really happened.

---

Excuse me? Methinks DKB is on crack.

As for the second half of your second statement, sure, this could have probably been avoided had the US blown the shit out of some place and actually gotten Bin Laden in its last attempt. But we're not terrorists, so we cut it short after a few missle strikes struck out.

I'm all for trying to save the lives of civilians, which is why I'm so enraged by these acts of terrorism. I am also all for wiping whoever is behind this off the face of the earth along with anyone who helped them in any way, and I'm all for finding a way to do it so as to limit the number of deaths of innocent bystanders in the Middle East. I think we will to.

I was not referring to people who want to limit civilian casualties in general as pro-terrorists, merely criticizing those who insist on trying to take up the viewpoint of the terrorists, and saying in effect that the US has committed acts of terrorism on them, so they were justified in blowing up the WTC's. Those people in my opinion need to stop smoking crack and join the real world, where people who have virtually nothing to do with political struggles in the middle east die when you blow up a couple of 110 story office buildings.

To draw an analogy: thats like saying that McVeigh was justified in blowing up the federal building and daycare center, and killing all those people because he disagreed with our government. No fucking way! There is a specific format for voicing disagreements with our government or its policies, and its called contacting your congress, raising support amongst the people, and in general making it known that you have issues without resorting to acts of violence.

My country may be far from perfect, but until last tuesday, it was one of the safest and most free places in the world to live, one of the few countries taking an active role in attempting to keep peace in other parts of the world, one of the few countries that was always willing to lend a hand to other countries in need without being repaid, and one of the many countries which is composed of and run by fallible human beings who are not omniscient about how foreign policy and the potential effects of certain actions, but one of the few countries that for the most part did its best to lead by example, and one of the countries where very high value is placed on human life. That's something to stand up for, and something to take an active role in defending against attack by fear or terrorism.

Edit: I wasn't 100\% sure how many people McVeigh killed, so I wrote "All Those" instead

This message has been edited by Hellraiser on September 14, 2001 at 04:22 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hellraiser:

I was not referring to people who want to limit civilian casualties in general as pro-terrorists, merely criticizing those who insist on trying to take up the viewpoint of the terrorists, and saying in effect that the US has committed acts of terrorism on them, so they were justified in blowing up the WTC's.

---

If I'm included in the "those who insist on trying to take up the viewpoint of the terrorists", I am NOT saying they were justified, and I'm sure the others would agree. We never said they were justified. NO, it shouldn't have been done. But they had a reason. It wasn't done for NO REASON. That would just be super fucked up, more fucked up than it is now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellraiser:
I was...criticizing those who insist on trying to take up the viewpoint of the terrorists

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May I point out that the game of Devil's Advocate is fundamental to the process of Reason? If you want a reasonable, effective solution to this problem, someone has to argue the terrorist's POV. Ignoring them and telling them to STFU isn't going to help any. Poking holes in THEIR arguments will.

quote:

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...saying in effect that the US has committed acts of terrorism on them, so they were justified in blowing up the WTC.

---

Ah, and there's the hole in the terrorist's argument... we don't start wars with countries just because they think or live differently than us. We only use violence when someone is using violence to harm our friends and interests - and although it may seem paradoxical, sometimes the only thing that's going to stop the violence is MORE violence, properly applied.

Your first grade teacher always said "it doesn't matter who hit first," but that's a crock of shit and we all knew it even then. Run away from a bully, and you'll live to have him hit you another day. Punch him in the goddamn face and he'll leave you alone from then on.

I feel a new thread coming on...

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Ah, and there's the hole in the terrorist's argument... we don't start wars with countries just because they think or live differently than us. We only use violence when someone is using violence to harm our friends and interests - and although it may seem paradoxical, sometimes the only thing that's going to stop the violence is MORE violence, properly applied.

Your first grade teacher always said "it doesn't matter who hit first," but that's a crock of shit and we all knew it even then. Run away from a bully, and you'll live to have him hit you another day. Punch him in the goddamn face and he'll leave you alone from then on.

I feel a new thread coming on...

---

I actually agree with most of that. I just don't like the fact that people are posting things as if in support of the terrorist viewpoint. If you're gonna play devil's advocate, at least make it clear you aren't supporting the devil's viewpoint, else you go on my hitlist.

A1C Raymond Myers

------------------
Take XTC, Then you wake up in the morning wondering "Wheres My Underwear?"

YOU _ARE_ THE ENEMY.

I don't want to hear another fucking word out of your goddamned mouth. I hope you get to fry in that special place in hell I just know is waiting for you.

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

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Take XTC, Then you wake up in the morning wondering "Wheres My Underwear?"

------------------
Take XTC, Then you wake up in the morning wondering "Wheres My Underwear?"

Read that, then listen to people try to defend the terrorists. Pay special attention to the Firefighters. They're the ones running into places everyone else runs away from. More firefighters died than all the people on the planes.

Confirmed dead
Firefighters
[Peter J. Ganci]?, chief of department
William M. Feehan, first deputy commissioner
[Mychal Judge]?, 68, FDNY (New York City Fire Department) chaplain, a Franciscan priest
[Andy Desperito]?, Engine Company 1 lieutenant
[Yamel Merino]?, 24, Yonkers, N.Y., emergency medical technician for Metro Care Ambulance Co.

By hospital
5 fatalities at St. Vincent's Hospital
one fatality at Bellevue Hospital
firefighter dead on arrival, struck by falling body - Daniel Thomas Suhr, 37, Brooklyn, NY

Missing and presumed dead
350 firefighters missing/dead (about two percent of total force)
[Raymond M. Downey]?, chief of rescue operations, the most decorated firefighter on the force
[Gerard Barbara]?, chief
[Donald Burns]?, chief
All of Rescues 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, all of the most elite department units
Ladder Company 132
Ladder Company 105
Engine Company 33
5 firefighters from Ladder 12

I've got a fairly close friend who lives in NY. I still haven't heard from him.

Does anyone know if any publishers operated out of the World Trade Center?

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

---

Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Yo Hellraiser, do some deep research into McVeigh. He was in the damn US army, he was one of the best there. THEN he realized what they were actually doing, and the kind of BS it was. Strong love and pride for the American government turned into VERY bitter hate. He just didn't flip out overnight. He found good reasons to hate the US, and instead of bombing a large shopping center and killing lots of civilians, he bombed a GOVERNMENT building, and like he said, the civilians hurt were "collateral damage". He felt the need to strike back at the government for what they did/are doing. He wasn't just a random psychopath. How can he not resort to an act of violence when the US always threatens others by being the "superpower" or "invincible US"? Just because the US is stronger doesn't mean they have to interfere with almost EVERYTHING.

---

I don't give a fuck where the hatred came from, the point is, it is inexcusable to resort to an act of terrorism to make a point. Now get the point before I resort to an act of terrorism on your person.

/me gets out the flamethrower and eyes StanVanDam with an evil glint in his eyes.

While I'm on the topic, it doesn't matter if it is a government building or not, a government building is staffed by citizens who usually do little more than file paperwork. I guess I should blow up the accounting department in the microsoft building because I have a DEEP hatred left from all the pain Windows users have been forced to deal with over the years.

Because human beings are rational, I'm sure there is some thought that goes into every decision made by every person throughout history. But there is such a thing as going too far. And there are certain decisions and actions that cannot be justified no matter how the decision was arrived at. The only possible point to figuring out what prompted the decision would be to prevent anyone from making such a decision again. And sometimes its best to just get rid of whoever would make decisions like that rather than back down on principles.

The united states is dependent on oil from the middle east, and has protected this interest in the past whenever possible. This has agreed resulted in some interesting and probably meddlesome foreign policy issues, though the one pointed out about the Iraq/Iran issue, The only reason Iraq/US relationships are the way they are is because Iraq decided (or rather its dictator) to invade a virtually defensless smaller country. The US created some careful coalitions and went to war to protect Kuwait and its oil interests, but stopped short of obliterating Iraq in an attempt to prevent all out war from breaking out in the middle east. In desert storm, every effort was made to keep civilian casualties to a minimum, while also limiting American and Ally losses.

The history of unrest in the middle east goes much deeper than American foreign policy in the area. If you understand this, you can also understand that the US has been on very shaky footing in protecting its interests, and it is actually remarkable that there haven't been more problems. There are plenty of decisions that have been made that were not the best. In hindsight, all the flaws of every administration in every era can be seen which may not have been readily visible. However, these actions are not wholy responsible for anti-US sentiment in the middle-east, the United States has done a lot to help certain nation/states, as well as made decisions that may not have helped. In third party situations like that, a lot of times the third party (US) takes more of the blame because it is seen as not belonging. Despite the fact that there is a lot of negative feelings towards the US, the vast majority of people in the middle east would not support the type of terrorist acts that occured on Tuesday.

I never at any point said the US did not have a flawed history in foreign policy. I did state, and I will repeat this, that the US has as a rule attempted to do the best it can in dealings with foreign countries. There have been numerous more times that the US has helped out another country than caused harm by intervening. Because the US is arguably the wealthiest and strongest country in the world, or at least was through most of the second half of the past century, many other nations have looked to the united states as a superpower. That was never a title we pursued. We didn't go out of our way to become the strongest. But often it has fallen to us to intervene in the interests of preventing problems and keeping peace. In NATO for instance, the united states has provided most of the bruntwork in peacekeeping missions, thus has often been villified when things didn't go as planned. Again I will stress that the US is not without flaws in its dealings with other countries. But we have helped more than hurt, even in the middle-east.

Terrorism is something that I know is not new to the world, nor is it new to the United States. But events of this past Tuesday were worse than any terrorist acts that have been committed in the past.

In placing responsibility for human behavior, there is a tendency these days to shy away from the fact that humans are responsible for their actions, and try to find some element in their background on which to place the blame. For instance, saying the US provoked these attacks by policy decisions that left Arabic peoples feeling resentment towards the US. The reality is that responsibility for these attacks rests solely on the shoulders of those who planned it, and carried it out, and those who helped those who planned and carried it out.

The whole world has been under terrorist attacks for too long now, it is time to take a stand and say that terrorism is not going to sway us, or drive us away in fear, it is not going to further your cause, it is merely going to sign your death certificate. I want to see any actions that are taken in counter-terrorism over the next few months/years/decades/centuries to be in a sense world-wide, as in supported by countries around the world, and done in a manner so as to limit civilian casualties in the process. People harboring terrorists, and governments supporting them, as well as the terrorists themselves should not be considered as civilians, because these type of people are lending support to actions that no civilized person would.

I also want to see everyone around the world not stereotype arabic peoples in terms of "us" and "them" since as a group they are much like any other group: asian, african, european, native american. That is to say they are a part of the variety of humanity that exists on the face of this earth today. Only those specifically involved in, and supporting terrorism, as well as terrorist organizations and supporters in any other ethnic group should be targets in the wave of anti-terrorist purism that should ensue. Indeed, it should be a war on terrorism, not on people.

Thats all I have to say on this right now, and I think it covers most of the topics broached so far in this thread. I do have my sources, but its too late tonight to go through and list them all, some of my better sources for US foreign policy include the excellent book "Called to Serve" by James Gritez (sp?) which I read last year, as well as what I have gleaned through 6 years of reading various news on world affairs, as well as research I did for highschool and college papers on Israel, the Peoples of the Arabian Sub-continent, Religions of the world and their origins, and Desert Storm.

I also have aquaintences in the various branches of the US military who have actually had frontline experience on US missions in the middle-east and other areas of the world, as well as several friends who are Israeli/US dual citizens, and an Arab immigrant, who was not at all supportive of terrorism, I'll be the first to tell the FBI.

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellraiser:
We didn't go out of our way to become the strongest.

---

Sure we did.

Oh, say can you see...

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quote:

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Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by TheTaxMan:
A wisecrack remark.

---

Perhaps you should take advice from the quote in your signature

Its good to know that the spirits of individualism and good humor have not left us in the wake of the AOA.

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

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Take XTC, Then you wake up in the morning wondering "Wheres My Underwear?"

This message has been edited by Dark-Angel99 on September 15, 2001 at 11:56 AM

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on September 15, 2001 at 12:06 AM

Now start thinking twice before you blindly believe what the media tells you.

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
again I must point out ugly reality. even if you kill bin laden, and all of his assocites, and all of his cells, MORE WILL COME UP. they will be just as angry at the US fro the same reason they were on tuesday. The only way to make this stop is to make it too expensive for them to commit these acts. Lets see now, they are already willing to give up their lives, so what can we take away from them? Their families. Their cities.

All of you who are worried about a counter-counter-attack are just full-of-shit pacifists. They have already counter attacked us. It's our time to strike back hard and fast.

---

CatKnight WTF is up with you. I'm usually the one sticking up for you but since the 11th everything that's come out of your mouth has been a steaming turd.

Every story has several sides to it, and usually we only see one side. Sure everyone saw red Tuesday night, but thats not cause to go after every person of the same race as those who commited the crime. What CK suggested would bring us down to the level of the terrorists who commited those crimes. We can't afford to do that. Aside from the fact that it would be morally wrong, it would seriously damage the already shaky perception of the US in the world outside our borders.

Another very interesting article by UKs direct-action newsletter SchNEWS:
< http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news322.htm >

Apparently O.B.L. came about cos of a CIA funded project?

This needs looking into ...

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
a bit

---

And if you want them to "capture the city and depose the government," why the fuck would they need to impose sanctions??

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quote:

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Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

This message has been edited by TheTaxMan on September 15, 2001 at 08:01 PM

If you depose a government, there's no one left to punish. What, are we going to defeat the Taliban and then starve the displaced refugees? No medical supplies or gasoline for you! Ha ha!

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quote:

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Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

As long as the US proceeds with caution and limits civilian casualties, I'm in full support of what my country does.

I'm actually glad that Bush made it to the white house rather than Gore, because I don't see Gore as being the type of person who could have handled this situation. He'd probably even be apologizing to the middle east right now, or asking for a recount of bodies to see if there were enough of them to justify the US taking a stance against terrorism.

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

All of you who are worried about a counter-counter-attack are just full-of-shit pacifists. They have already counter attacked us. It's our time to strike back hard and fast.

------------------
Tickle us, do we not laugh?
Prick us, do we not bleed?
Wrong us, shall we not revenge?

quote:

---

Originally posted by CatKnight:
Lets see now, they are already willing to give up their lives, so what can we take away from them? Their families. Their cities.

---

Catknight, there's a threshold for the amount of times I can sit here and watch you advocate the total annihilation and virtual genocide of an entire race.

I also find it rather unscrupulous considering your heritage and views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

If you haven't learned a lesson from the Nazis I suggest you ask your family to reeducate you. If they can't help I'm sure any Armenian or Rwandan will suffice.

Joe – I think you’re getting worked up at the wrong guy. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth, but I don’t think he’s condoning what McVeigh did. But, you have to remember to be objective. These people aren’t mindless crazies: they have an agenda, they are rather intelligent, and they are willing to die for a cause. In their point of view, what they did was justified. If we don’t spend time identifying and dissecting what it is that drives people to commit such atrocities, and work on correcting those problems, then we are only sealing our own fates.

This goes back to CK, too. The answer is not in total destruction. There are two obvious paths to take: one which involves senseless murder, and the other that involves thought and intelligence. The time has come to once again pick between brains and brawn. Between compassion and hatred.

Granted, a certain degree of force is necessary, and in essence unavoidable, but to advocate killing families as this asshole keeps doing is frankly repulsive.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chmod:
dammit!
my sister's friend was working in the world trade center at the time and no one's heard from him since.
My aunt, who works about 2 blocks away, got out unscathed but just found out that one of her neighbors lost [b]both of his parents, and he's an only child.[/B]

---

My cousin's girlfriend's cousin was in class (HS in Northern VA) and the principal came in to tell someone in her class that both of the person's parents were on the flight from Dulles that crashed into the Pentagon. I was talking to my sister (in Okinawa ) via our WebCams the other day and she had the camera pointed towards the window and you could see the Marines partoling in Hummers. They were patroling on foot w/ machine guns and helmets, flak jackets, etc. but now they are patroling in Hummers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by incubus:

Apparently O.B.L. came about cos of a CIA funded project?

This needs looking into ...

---

Yes, he was amongst the resistance fighters in afganhistan during soviet occupation from 1979-1989. The CIA trained many of the resistance fighters, including Osama in the art of guerilla warfare, to help drive out the soviet invaders.

However, while fighting with the other members of the resistance, he solidified his already extreme religious views.

When the soviets were driven back, and America withdrew from the situation, Afganistan spiraled downward into civil war and unrest, until the Teliban strongarmed their way into power, also with the help of Osama. In the middle of this, he somehow identified America, his former ally in fighting the russians, as the enemy, and proclaimed that the only way to deal with the evil of the west was through terrorism and not distinguishing between civilians and military targets. All American citizens were equally deserving of the wrath of Allah.

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

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~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

Hey hey hey! Who's that there changing their opinion without even a hint of an apology for his RETARDED ASS former posts?

*GRRRRR*

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~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

Let's assume heavy losses.

Is it worth it? I mean seriously, to finally get rid of terrorist groups in the middle east? We've got the support of Pakhistan and probably Egypt as well. Is it worth the deaths of 'x' american troops to make the world a better place for everyone? Granted, I'm not in the military, and do not have the authority or the right to make a decision like this, but we've got the man-power, the mechanised power, and so does NATO and the rest of our allies (so that means losses for all, not just the US, duh).

And, anyone who thinks someone should apologise for speaking their mind on this forum is fooling themselves. Find something usefull to complain about.
------------------

quote:

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Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

This message has been edited by TheTaxMan on September 16, 2001 at 10:34 PM

I always think a sense of humor helps the situation. Here's the< best medicine >.

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You are what you drive
---
Cadillac: A Buick Park Avenue is too young and sporty for me.

He owes no-one an apology. I'd rather any hotheads change their minds without any word of apology than having people hurt others in anger. Not saying CK would, but there's folks out there looking for a reason to hurt anyone else because of their differences.

Like I posted before, the best thing anyone in America can do is to stand behind their leaders when the time comes to make the decisions. Even when some of your loved ones or acquaintences come back dead. This WILL require people going in to do the dirty. It's not going to be a push button war again.

I think the really significant part of this whole ordeal is the fact that the Americans fianlly realised HOW MUCH the other parts of the world can hate them. You guys knew they didn't like you for some time, but not to the extent of this tragedy. And the hard part is knowing that your country has been trying to help these people for decades.

I read a speech by a Canadian leader the other day that made total sense. America has always been there for the rest of the world but no-one has ever volunteered to help her during her disasters till now.

The root of it is, America's foreign policy touches every country. You guys seeks to do well everywhere. Granted sometimes it fails, but usually it's successful. You don't see news headlines showing that N Korea didn't do anything aggressive today. Or that another day has passed without China trying to reclaim Taiwan.

Problem is, with such a far-reaching international policy, people tend to associate ANYTHING going wrong in their lives, with the USA. Compare it to IT. Computers crash all the time, but what name do IT people curse each time/ 'That damn Microsoft!' Even though they've done more to standardise computing for the world than anyone, it's mostly talked about for it's faults. It's exactly the same with America.

Be proud of the fact that it's for this reason that you guys are hated and now, although sadly it's taken this tragedy to ignite it, America is going to be the pivot in changing world safety regarding terrorism. When the eyes are dried after this, a lot of people are going to sleep a little more soundly and hopefully have a little brighter outlook on their own future.

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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely peasent to look at"

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

Didn't the CIA have a group of people..assassins/mercenaries...to get rid of corrupt international leaders? I think they ended this kind of thing in the 70's when it became publicly known. Anyway, I think this sounds like a godd idea...not that we could assassinate Castro on how many attempts?

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-doom farmer

This message has been edited by doom farmer on September 17, 2001 at 06:48 AM

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Take XTC, Then you wake up in the morning wondering "Wheres My Underwear?"

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.

---

and i really hope all that palestine bullshit where epople were dancing in the streets is fake... we've already had "incidents" that are race related here on my campus...

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to get info straight here people.

------------------
~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

This message has been edited by DeadAnztac on September 17, 2001 at 02:50 PM

Don't know the exec. order #.

Terrorist leaders, however, are pretty much under an open season license.
'Be vewy, vewy quiet!'

quote:

---

Originally posted by Observer:
CK, listen more closely in the morning before you go on spreading such rumors. UPMC McKeesport categorically [b]denied those allegations. Even Quinn had his doubts as to the validity of the email he received.

[/B]

---

oops, pardon my ignorance.

btw SLATE, the taliban is the government of afghanistan, not palestine.

Even < www.middleeastwire.com > indicated that the clip aired on CNN was in fact genuine, but indicated that it was only a few, and when people were made aware of the details of the attack, no one was cheering. In fact, services in honor of those who died were held across the middle east.

I sincerely doubt that CNN would be foolish enough to dig up old newsclips to broadcast in the wake of a tragedy, because it would seriously damage their credibility.

------------------
Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

1. To avoid being attacked by the US
2. They want the US to pay their $xx million dollar debt.

--------------------------------------------------
It's interesting that the footage of Palestinians celebrating in the streets was reputedly shot ten years ago. Someone recognised it as having been taken when Kuwait was invaded. Story at: Counterpunch article
It appears, if this story is accurate, that the righteous anger people have been feeling against celebrating Palestinians should instead be directed at CNN.

Don Armstrong

--------------------------------------------------
Well, that wouldn't surprise me any. One of my best friends went to medical school in Chile and then practiced there for years before returning to the US.

Years ago, he came to visit us. We were a bit concerned because the TV news was reporting widespread rioting right where David lived. When he arrived here, he told us that the news reports were simply wrong. There hadn't been any rioting, let alone the widespread stuff that was being reported. David said that when he'd left Chile only hours before everything was completely normal. People going about their business normally. Businesses open, people having lunch in cafes, and so on.

We happened to have the TV news on later. They were reporting that rioting had been going on for days, and were showing footage. David told us that was ridiculous. Earlier that day, he'd been at exactly the place they were showing on TV, and it was completely peaceful, whereas the TV was saying that this was a continuing riot.

As the report continued, David jumped up and shouted, "Look at the license plates on those cars!" We couldn't figure out why he was so excited until he explained that the license plates on the cars being shown in the TV news footage hadn't been used in Chile for 10 years or more. And there was no question that the TV news was representing this to be current footage.

That's just one example. I've also spoken to many other people whom I trust who have described similar situations. I simply don't trust the TV news to report anything accurately.
Robert Bruce Thompson
webmaster@ttgnet.com < http://www.ttgnet.com/rbt/thisweek.html >

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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."

On the morning of September 11, 2001, a few more chickens - along with some half-million dead Iraqi children - came home to roost in a very big way at the twin towers of New York's World Trade Center. Well, actually, a few of them seem to have nestled in at the Pentagon as well.

The Iraqi youngsters, all of them under 12, died as a predictable - in fact, widely predicted - result of the 1991 US "surgical" bombing of their country's water purification and sewage facilities, as well as other "infrastructural" targets upon which Iraq's civilian population depends for its very survival.

If the nature of the bombing were not already bad enough - and it should be noted that this sort of "aerial warfare" constitutes a Class I Crime Against humanity, entailing myriad gross violations of international law, as well as every conceivable standard of "civilized" behavior - the death toll has been steadily ratcheted up by US-imposed sanctions for a full decade now. Enforced all the while by a massive military presence and periodic bombing raids, the embargo has greatly impaired the victims' ability to import the nutrients, medicines and other materials necessary to saving the lives of even their toddlers.

All told, Iraq has a population of about 18 million. The 500,000 kids lost to date thus represent something on the order of 25 percent of their age group. Indisputably, the rest have suffered - are still suffering - a combination of physical debilitation and psychological trauma severe enough to prevent their ever fully recovering. In effect, an entire generation has been obliterated.

The reason for this holocaust was/is rather simple, and stated quite straightforwardly by President George Bush, the 41st "freedom-loving" father of the freedom-lover currently filling the Oval Office, George the 43rd: "The world must learn that what we say, goes," intoned George the Elder to the enthusiastic applause of freedom-loving Americans everywhere. How Old George conveyed his message was certainly no mystery to the US public. One need only recall the 24-hour-per-day dissemination of bombardment videos on every available TV channel, and the exceedingly high ratings of these telecasts, to gain a sense of how much they knew.

In trying to affix a meaning to such things, we would do well to remember the wave of elation that swept America at reports of what was happening along the so-called Highway of Death: perhaps 100,000 "towel-heads" and "camel jockeys" - or was it "sand niggers" that week? - in full retreat, routed and effectively defenseless, many of them conscripted civilian laborers, slaughtered in a single day by jets firing the most hyper-lethal types of ordnance. It was a performance worthy of the nazis during the early months of their drive into Russia. And it should be borne in mind that Good Germans gleefully cheered that butchery, too. Indeed, support for Hitler suffered no serious erosion among Germany's "innocent civilians" until the defeat at Stalingrad in 1943.

There may be a real utility to reflecting further, this time upon the fact that it was pious Americans who led the way in assigning the onus of collective guilt to the German people as a whole, not for things they as individuals had done, bur for what they had allowed - nay, empowered - their leaders and their soldiers to do in their name.

If the principle was valid then, it remains so now, as applicable to Good Americans as it was the Good Germans. And the price exacted from the Germans for the faultiness of their moral fiber was truly ghastly. Returning now to the children, and to the effects of the post-Gulf War embargo - continued bull force by Bush the Elder's successors in the Clinton administration as a gesture of its "resolve" to finalize what George himself had dubbed the "New World Order" of American military/economic domination - it should be noted that not one but two high United Nations officials attempting to coordinate delivery of humanitarian aid to Iraq resigned in succession as protests against US policy.

One of them, former U.N. Assistant Secretary General Denis Halladay, repeatedly denounced what was happening as "a systematic program . . . of deliberate genocide." His statements appeared in the New York Times and other papers during the fall of 1998, so it can hardly be contended that the American public was "unaware" of them. Shortly thereafter, Secretary of State Madeline Albright openly confirmed Halladay's assessment. Asked during the widely-viewed TV program Meet the Press to respond to his "allegations," she calmly announced that she'd decided it was "worth the price" to see that U.S. objectives were achieved.

The Politics of a Perpetrator Population

As a whole, the American public greeted these revelations with yawns.. There were, after all, far more pressing things than the unrelenting misery/death of a few hundred thousand Iraqi tikes to be concerned with. Getting "Jeremy" and "Ellington" to their weekly soccer game, for instance, or seeing to it that little "Tiffany" an "Ashley" had just the right roll-neck sweaters to go with their new cords. And, to be sure, there was the yuppie holy war against ashtrays - for "our kids," no less - as an all-absorbing point of political focus.

In fairness, it must be admitted that there was an infinitesimally small segment of the body politic who expressed opposition to what was/is being done to the children of Iraq. It must also be conceded, however, that those involved by-and-large contented themselves with signing petitions and conducting candle-lit prayer vigils, bearing "moral witness" as vast legions of brown-skinned five-year-olds sat shivering in the dark, wide-eyed in horror, whimpering as they expired in the most agonizing ways imaginable.

Be it said as well, and this is really the crux of it, that the "resistance" expended the bulk of its time and energy harnessed to the systemically-useful task of trying to ensure, as "a principle of moral virtue" that nobody went further than waving signs as a means of "challenging" the patently exterminatory pursuit of Pax Americana. So pure of principle were these "dissidents," in fact, that they began literally to supplant the police in protecting corporations profiting by the carnage against suffering such retaliatory "violence" as having their windows broken by persons less "enlightened" - or perhaps more outraged - than the self-anointed "peacekeepers."

Property before people, it seems - or at least the equation of property to people - is a value by no means restricted to America's boardrooms. And the sanctimony with which such putrid sentiments are enunciated turns out to be nauseatingly similar, whether mouthed by the CEO of Standard Oil or any of the swarm of comfort zone "pacifists" queuing up to condemn the black block after it ever so slightly disturbed the functioning of business-as-usual in Seattle.

Small wonder, all-in-all, that people elsewhere in the world - the Mideast, for instance - began to wonder where, exactly, aside from the streets of the US itself, one was to find the peace America's purportedly oppositional peacekeepers claimed they were keeping.

The answer, surely, was plain enough to anyone unblinded by the kind of delusions engendered by sheer vanity and self-absorption. So, too, were the implications in terms of anything changing, out there, in America's free-fire zones.

Tellingly, it was at precisely this point - with the genocide in Iraq officially admitted and a public response demonstrating beyond a shadow of a doubt that there were virtually no Americans, including most of those professing otherwise, doing anything tangible to stop it - that the combat teams which eventually commandeered the aircraft used on September 11 began to infiltrate the United States.

Meet the "Terrorists"

Of the men who came, there are a few things demanding to be said in the face of the unending torrent of disinformational drivel unleashed by George Junior and the corporate "news" media immediately following their successful operation on September 11.

They did not, for starters, "initiate" a war with the US, much less commit "the first acts of war of the new millennium."

A good case could be made that the war in which they were combatants has been waged more-or-less continuously by the "Christian West" - now proudly emblematized by the United States - against the "Islamic East" since the time of the First Crusade, about 1,000 years ago. More recently, one could argue that the war began when Lyndon Johnson first lent significant support to Israel's dispossession/displacement of Palestinians during the 1960s, or when George the Elder ordered "Desert Shield" in 1990, or at any of several points in between. Any way you slice it, however, if what the combat teams did to the WTC and the Pentagon can be understood as acts of war - and they can - then the same is true of every US "overflight' of Iraqi territory since day one. The first acts of war during the current millennium thus occurred on its very first day, and were carried out by U.S. aviators acting under orders from their then-commander-in-chief, Bill Clinton. The most that can honestly be said of those involved on September 11 is that they finally responded in kind to some of what this country has dispensed to their people as a matter of course.

That they waited so long to do so is, notwithstanding the 1993 action at the WTC, more than anything a testament to their patience and restraint.

They did not license themselves to "target innocent civilians."

There is simply no argument to be made that the Pentagon personnel killed on September 11 fill that bill. The building and those inside comprised military targets, pure and simple. As to those in the World Trade Center . . .

Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire - the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved - and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" - a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" - counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in - and in many cases excelling at - it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it.

The men who flew the missions against the WTC and Pentagon were not "cowards." That distinction properly belongs to the "firm-jawed lads" who delighted in flying stealth aircraft through the undefended airspace of Baghdad, dropping payload after payload of bombs on anyone unfortunate enough to be below - including tens of thousands of genuinely innocent civilians - while themselves incurring all the risk one might expect during a visit to the local video arcade. Still more, the word describes all those "fighting men and women" who sat at computer consoles aboard ships in the Persian Gulf, enjoying air-conditioned comfort while launching cruise missiles into neighborhoods filled with random human beings. Whatever else can be said of them, the men who struck on September 11 manifested the courage of their convictions, willingly expending their own lives in attaining their objectives.

Nor were they "fanatics" devoted to "Islamic fundamentalism."

One might rightly describe their actions as "desperate." Feelings of desperation, however, are a perfectly reasonable - one is tempted to say "normal" - emotional response among persons confronted by the mass murder of their children, particularly when it appears that nobody else really gives a damn (ask a Jewish survivor about this one, or, even more poignantly, for all the attention paid them, a Gypsy).

That desperate circumstances generate desperate responses is no mysterious or irrational principle, of the sort motivating fanatics. Less is it one peculiar to Islam. Indeed, even the FBI's investigative reports on the combat teams' activities during the months leading up to September 11 make it clear that the members were not fundamentalist Muslims. Rather, it's pretty obvious at this point that they were secular activists - soldiers, really - who, while undoubtedly enjoying cordial relations with the clerics of their countries, were motivated far more by the grisly realities of the U.S. war against them than by a set of religious beliefs.

And still less were they/their acts "insane."

Insanity is a condition readily associable with the very American idea that one - or one's country - holds what amounts to a "divine right" to commit genocide, and thus to forever do so with impunity. The term might also be reasonably applied to anyone suffering genocide without attempting in some material way to bring the process to a halt. Sanity itself, in this frame of reference, might be defined by a willingness to try and destroy the perpetrators and/or the sources of their ability to commit their crimes. (Shall we now discuss the US "strategic bombing campaign" against Germany during World War II, and the mental health of those involved in it?)

Which takes us to official characterizations of the combat teams as an embodiment of "evil."

Evil - for those inclined to embrace the banality of such a concept - was perfectly incarnated in that malignant toad known as Madeline Albright, squatting in her studio chair like Jaba the Hutt, blandly spewing the news that she'd imposed a collective death sentence upon the unoffending youth of Iraq. Evil was to be heard in that great American hero "Stormin' Norman" Schwartzkopf's utterly dehumanizing dismissal of their systematic torture and annihilation as mere "collateral damage." Evil, moreover, is a term appropriate to describing the mentality of a public that finds such perspectives and the policies attending them acceptable, or even momentarily tolerable.

Had it not been for these evils, the counterattacks of September 11 would never have occurred. And unless "the world is rid of such evil," to lift a line from George Junior, September 11 may well end up looking like a lark.

There is no reason, after all, to believe that the teams deployed in the assaults on the WTC and the Pentagon were the only such, that the others are composed of "Arabic-looking individuals" - America's indiscriminately lethal arrogance and psychotic sense of self-entitlement have long since given the great majority of the world's peoples ample cause to be at war with it - or that they are in any way dependent upon the seizure of civilian airliners to complete their missions.

To the contrary, there is every reason to expect that there are many other teams in place, tasked to employ altogether different tactics in executing operational plans at least as well-crafted as those evident on September 11, and very well equipped for their jobs. This is to say that, since the assaults on the WTC and Pentagon were act of war - not "terrorist incidents" - they must be understood as components in a much broader strategy designed to achieve specific results. From this, it can only be adduced that there are plenty of other components ready to go, and that they will be used, should this become necessary in the eyes of the strategists. It also seems a safe bet that each component is calibrated to inflict damage at a level incrementally higher than the one before (during the 1960s, the Johnson administration employed a similar policy against Vietnam, referred to as "escalation").

Since implementation of the overall plan began with the WTC/Pentagon assaults, it takes no rocket scientist to decipher what is likely to happen next, should the U.S. attempt a response of the inexcusable variety to which it has long entitled itself.

About Those Boys (and Girls) in the Bureau

There's another matter begging for comment at this point. The idea that the FBI's "counterterrorism task forces" can do a thing to prevent what will happen is yet another dimension of America's delusional pathology.. The fact is that, for all its publicly-financed "image-building" exercises, the Bureau has never shown the least aptitude for anything of the sort.

Oh, yeah, FBI counterintelligence personnel have proven quite adept at framing anarchists, communists and Black Panthers, sometimes murdering them in their beds or the electric chair. The Bureau's SWAT units have displayed their ability to combat child abuse in Waco by burning babies alive, and its vaunted Crime Lab has been shown to pad its "crime-fighting' statistics by fabricating evidence against many an alleged car thief. But actual "heavy-duty bad guys" of the sort at issue now? This isn't a Bruce Willis/Chuck Norris/Sly Stallone movie, after all.. And J. Edgar Hoover doesn't get to approve either the script or the casting.

The number of spies, saboteurs and bona fide terrorists apprehended, or even detected by the FBI in the course of its long and slimy history could be counted on one's fingers and toes. On occasion, its agents have even turned out to be the spies, and, in many instances, the terrorists as well.

To be fair once again, if the Bureau functions as at best a carnival of clowns where its "domestic security responsibilities" are concerned, this is because - regardless of official hype - it has none. It is now, as it's always been, the national political police force, and instrument created and perfected to ensure that all Americans, not just the consenting mass, are "free" to do exactly as they're told.

The FBI and "cooperating agencies" can be thus relied upon to set about "protecting freedom" by destroying whatever rights and liberties were left to U.S. citizens before September 11 (in fact, they've already received authorization to begin). Sheeplike, the great majority of Americans can also be counted upon to bleat their approval, at least in the short run, believing as they always do that the nasty implications of what they're doing will pertain only to others.

Oh Yeah, and "The Company," Too

A possibly even sicker joke is the notion, suddenly in vogue, that the CIA will be able to pinpoint "terrorist threats," "rooting out their infrastructure" where it exists and/or "terminating" it before it can materialize, if only it's allowed to beef up its "human intelligence gathering capacity" in an unrestrained manner (including full-bore operations inside the US, of course).

Yeah. Right.

Since America has a collective attention-span of about 15 minutes, a little refresher seems in order: "The Company" had something like a quarter-million people serving as "intelligence assets" by feeding it information in Vietnam in 1968, and it couldn't even predict the Tet Offensive. God knows how many spies it was fielding against the USSR at the height of Ronald Reagan's version of the Cold War, and it was still caught flatfooted by the collapse of the Soviet Union. As to destroying "terrorist infrastructures," one would do well to remember Operation Phoenix, another product of its open season in Vietnam. In that one, the CIA enlisted elite US units like the Navy Seals and Army Special Forces, as well as those of friendly countries - the south Vietnamese Rangers, for example, and Australian SAS - to run around "neutralizing" folks targeted by The Company's legion of snitches as "guerrillas" (as those now known as "terrorists" were then called).

Sound familiar?

Upwards of 40,000 people - mostly bystanders, as it turns out - were murdered by Phoenix hit teams before the guerrillas, stronger than ever, ran the US and its collaborators out of their country altogether. And these are the guys who are gonna save the day, if unleashed to do their thing in North America?

The net impact of all this "counterterrorism" activity upon the combat teams' ability to do what they came to do, of course, will be nil.

Instead, it's likely to make it easier for them to operate (it's worked that way in places like Northern Ireland). And, since denying Americans the luxury of reaping the benefits of genocide in comfort was self-evidently a key objective of the WTC/Pentagon assaults, it can be stated unequivocally that a more overt display of the police state mentality already pervading this country simply confirms the magnitude of their victory.

On Matters of Proportion and Intent

As things stand, including the 1993 detonation at the WTC, "Arab terrorists" have responded to the massive and sustained American terror bombing of Iraq with a total of four assaults by explosives inside the US. That's about 1\% of the 50,000 bombs the Pentagon announced were rained on Baghdad alone during the Gulf War (add in Oklahoma City and you'll get something nearer an actual 1\%).

They've managed in the process to kill about 5,000 Americans, or roughly 1\% of the dead Iraqi children (the percentage is far smaller if you factor in the killing of adult Iraqi civilians, not to mention troops butchered as/after they'd surrendered and/or after the "war-ending" ceasefire had been announced).

In terms undoubtedly more meaningful to the property/profit-minded American mainstream, they've knocked down a half-dozen buildings - albeit some very well-chosen ones - as opposed to the "strategic devastation" visited upon the whole of Iraq, and punched a 贄 billion hole in the earnings outlook of major corporate shareholders, as opposed to the U.S. obliteration of Iraq's entire economy.

With that, they've given Americans a tiny dose of their own medicine.. This might be seen as merely a matter of "vengeance" or "retribution," and, unquestionably, America has earned it, even if it were to add up only to something so ultimately petty.

The problem is that vengeance is usually framed in terms of "getting even," a concept which is plainly inapplicable in this instance. As the above data indicate, it would require another 49,996 detonations killing 495,000 more Americans, for the "terrorists" to "break even" for the bombing of Baghdad/extermination of Iraqi children alone. And that's to achieve "real number" parity. To attain an actual proportional parity of damage - the US is about 15 times as large as Iraq in terms of population, even more in terms of territory - they would, at a minimum, have to blow up about 300,000 more buildings and kill something on the order of 7.5 million people.

Were this the intent of those who've entered the US to wage war against it, it would remain no less true that America and Americans were only receiving the bill for what they'd already done. Payback, as they say, can be a real mother****er (ask the Germans). There is, however, no reason to believe that retributive parity is necessarily an item on the agenda of those who planned the WTC/Pentagon operation. If it were, given the virtual certainty that they possessed the capacity to have inflicted far more damage than they did, there would be a lot more American bodies lying about right now.

Hence, it can be concluded that ravings carried by the "news" media since September 11 have contained at least one grain of truth: The peoples of the Mideast "aren't like" Americans, not least because they don't "value life' in the same way. By this, it should be understood that Middle-Easterners, unlike Americans, have no history of exterminating others purely for profit, or on the basis of racial animus. Thus, we can appreciate the fact that they value life - all lives, not just their own - far more highly than do their U.S. counterparts.

The Makings of a Humanitarian Strategy

In sum one can discern a certain optimism - it might even be call humanitarianism - imbedded in the thinking of those who presided over the very limited actions conducted on September 11.

Their logic seems to have devolved upon the notion that the American people have condoned what has been/is being done in their name - indeed, are to a significant extent actively complicit in it - mainly because they have no idea what it feels like to be on the receiving end.

Now they do.

That was the "medicinal" aspect of the attacks.

To all appearances, the idea is now to give the tonic a little time to take effect, jolting Americans into the realization that the sort of pain they're now experiencing first-hand is no different from - or the least bit more excruciating than - that which they've been so cavalier in causing others, and thus to respond appropriately.

More bluntly, the hope was - and maybe still is - that Americans, stripped of their presumed immunity from incurring any real consequences for their behavior, would comprehend and act upon a formulation as uncomplicated as "stop killing our kids, if you want your own to be safe."

Either way, it's a kind of "reality therapy" approach, designed to afford the American people a chance to finally "do the right thing" on their own, without further coaxing.

Were the opportunity acted upon in some reasonably good faith fashion - a sufficiently large number of Americans rising up and doing whatever is necessary to force an immediate lifting of the sanctions on Iraq, for instance, or maybe hanging a few of America's abundant supply of major war criminals (Henry Kissinger comes quickly to mind, as do Madeline Albright, Colin Powell, Bill Clinton and George the Elder) - there is every reason to expect that military operations against the US on its domestic front would be immediately suspended.

Whether they would remain so would of course be contingent upon follow-up. By that, it may be assumed that American acceptance of onsite inspections by international observers to verify destruction of its weapons of mass destruction (as well as dismantlement of all facilities in which more might be manufactured), Nuremberg-style trials in which a few thousand US military/corporate personnel could be properly adjudicated and punished for their Crimes Against humanity, and payment of reparations to the array of nations/peoples whose assets the US has plundered over the years, would suffice.

Since they've shown no sign of being unreasonable or vindictive, it may even be anticipated that, after a suitable period of adjustment and reeducation (mainly to allow them to acquire the skills necessary to living within their means), those restored to control over their own destinies by the gallant sacrifices of the combat teams the WTC and Pentagon will eventually (re)admit Americans to the global circle of civilized societies. Stranger things have happened.

In the Alternative

Unfortunately, noble as they may have been, such humanitarian aspirations were always doomed to remain unfulfilled. For it to have been otherwise, a far higher quality of character and intellect would have to prevail among average Americans than is actually the case. Perhaps the strategists underestimated the impact a couple of generations-worth of media indoctrination can produce in terms of demolishing the capacity of human beings to form coherent thoughts. Maybe they forgot to factor in the mind-numbing effects of the indoctrination passed off as education in the US. Then, again, it's entirely possible they were aware that a decisive majority of American adults have been reduced by this point to a level much closer to the kind of immediate self-gratification entailed in Pavlovian stimulus/response patterns than anything accessible by appeals to higher logic, and still felt morally obliged to offer the dolts an option to quit while they were ahead.

What the hell? It was worth a try.

But it's becoming increasingly apparent that the dosage of medicine administered was entirely insufficient to accomplish its purpose.

Although there are undoubtedly exceptions, Americans for the most part still don't get it.

Already, they've desecrated the temporary tomb of those killed in the WTC, staging a veritable pep rally atop the mangled remains of those they profess to honor, treating the whole affair as if it were some bizarre breed of contact sport. And, of course, there are the inevitable pom-poms shaped like American flags, the school colors worn as little red-white-and-blue ribbons affixed to labels, sportscasters in the form of "counterterrorism experts" drooling mindless color commentary during the pregame warm-up.

Refusing the realization that the world has suddenly shifted its axis, and that they are therefore no longer "in charge," they have by-and-large reverted instantly to type, working themselves into their usual bloodlust on the now obsolete premise that the bloodletting will "naturally" occur elsewhere and to someone else.

"Patriotism," a wise man once observed, "is the last refuge of scoundrels."

And the braided, he might of added.

Braided Scoundrel-in-Chief, George Junior, lacking even the sense to be careful what he wished for, has teamed up with a gaggle of fundamentalist Christian clerics like Billy Graham to proclaim a "New Crusade" called "Infinite Justice" aimed at "ridding the world of evil."

One could easily make light of such rhetoric, remarking upon how unseemly it is for a son to threaten his father in such fashion - or a president to so publicly contemplate the murder/suicide of himself and his cabinet - but the matter is deadly serious.

They are preparing once again to sally forth for the purpose of roasting brown-skinned children by the scores of thousands. Already, the B-1 bombers and the aircraft carriers and the missile frigates are en route, the airborne divisions are gearing up to go.

To where? Afghanistan?

The Sudan?

Iraq, again (or still)?

How about Grenada (that was fun)?

Any of them or all. It doesn't matter.

The desire to pummel the helpless runs rabid as ever.

Only, this time it's different.

The time the helpless aren't, or at least are not so helpless as they were.

This time, somewhere, perhaps in an Afghani mountain cave, possibly in a Brooklyn basement, maybe another local altogether - but somewhere, all the same - there's a grim-visaged (wo)man wearing a Cling Eastwood smile.

"Go ahead, punks," s/he's saying, "Make my day."

And when they do, when they launch these airstrikes abroad - or may a little later; it will be at a time conforming to the "terrorists"' own schedule, and at a place of their choosing - the next more intensive dose of medicine administered here "at home."

Of what will it consist this time? Anthrax? Mustard gas? Sarin? A tactical nuclear device?

That, too, is their choice to make.

Looking back, it will seem to future generations inexplicable why Americans were unable on their own, and in time to save themselves, to accept a rule of nature so basic that it could be mouthed by an actor, Lawrence Fishburn, in a movie, The Cotton Club.

"You've got to learn, " the line went, "that when you push people around, some people push back."

As they should.

As they must.

And as they undoubtedly will.

There is justice in such symmetry.

ADDENDUM

The preceding was a "first take" reading, more a stream-of-consciousness interpretive reaction to the September 11 counterattack than a finished piece on the topic. Hence, I'll readily admit that I've been far less than thorough, and quite likely wrong about a number of things.

For instance, it may not have been (only) the ghosts of Iraqi children who made their appearance that day. It could as easily have been some or all of their butchered Palestinian cousins.

Or maybe it was some or all of the at least 3.2 million Indochinese who perished as a result of America's sustained and genocidal assault on Southeast Asia (1959-1975), not to mention the millions more who've died because of the sanctions imposed thereafter.

Perhaps there were a few of the Korean civilians massacred by US troops at places like No Gun Ri during the early `50s, or the hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians ruthlessly incinerated in the ghastly fire raids of World War II (only at Dresden did America bomb Germany in a similar manner).

And, of course, it could have been those vaporized in the militarily pointless nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

There are others, as well, a vast and silent queue of faceless victims, stretching from the million-odd Filipinos slaughtered during America's "Indian War" in their islands at the beginning of the twentieth century, through the real Indians, America's own, massacred wholesale at places like Horseshoe Bend and the Bad Axe, Sand Creek and Wounded Knee, the Wa****a, Bear River, and the Marias.

Was it those who expired along the Cherokee Trial of Tears of the Long Walk of the Navajo?

Those murdered by smallpox at Fort Clark in 1836?

Starved to death in the concentration camp at Bosque Redondo during the 1860s?

Maybe those native people claimed for scalp bounty in all 48 of the continental US states? Or the Raritans whose severed heads were kicked for sport along the streets of what was then called New Amsterdam, at the very site where the WTC once stood?

One hears, too, the whispers of those lost on the Middle Passage, and of those whose very flesh was sold in the slave market outside the human kennel from whence Wall Street takes its name. And of coolie laborers, imported by the gross-dozen to lay the tracks of empire across scorching desert sands, none of them allotted "a Chinaman's chance" of surviving.

The list is too long, too awful to go on.

No matter what its eventual fate, America will have gotten off very, very cheap.

The full measure of its guilt can never be fully balanced or atoned for

quote:

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i want a motherboard review not a dissertation

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can anyone scale down that encyclopedia of a post cos the hell if i'm gonna be bothered to read all that

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Oh and by the way, if you see your mum this weekend, be sure to tell her SATAN!!! - Orbital

However, your essay seems to root in the assumption that there exists no other evil in the world besides the US - that all our "enemies" are somehow innocent because they lost battles against us. Granted, I see you think many or all of these conflicts were unjustly instigated by the USA - granted, many were, but there were other threats abound when this country made the military decisions that pepper its history.

For example, you mention Nagasaki...

Well, did it not end the war? For how long would the ground battle have continued if not for that bomb? American losses aside, how many more Japanese would have died in a bloody, extended ground campaign?

The intelligent bet is on "a fuckload."

I'm not saying the use of nuclear weapons is okay. It's just that at the time, a hasty decision was made at a bottleneck...not only as the means to scare a desperate (not to mention suicidal) country into surrender, but a way to illustrate to the Nazis that they had lost the race, and were officially fucked.

Perhaps some similarity is shared between this example and today's Taliban/state-sponsored terrorism threat. Yeah, I think it does. However, now is the time to learn from past mistakes...to learn from the horrors of war...to not be condemned to repeating the past because of ignorance. On these points, I completely agree with you.

Nevertheless, I still think something must be done. Action must be taken in order to snub murder and violence. The US may be just as guilty, but no one said we can't fight to change our country as well. While our soldiers are away, I wish more fat-ass Americans would get off their sofas and start making a fucking country out of this land…instead of staying glued to fucking low-brow, voyeuristic television, sucking down processed food and working miserable 9-5 shifts like robots in factory…instead of rotting in apathy (aka obesity and welfare), making the rest of us hard-working citizens look like morons in front of the international community. Everyone seems to complain about the US...but no one wants to make it better. No one offers positive internal solutions. They just want to justify violence against us. To tell us, "we had it coming."

Yeah, people need a wake-up call. Again, that's one of the things I liked about your essay. Still, I think as long as we fight in Afghanistan for the benefit of 1Afghanis and the global good, taking careful measure to keep the innocent fed and safe, I will support this war on terrorism.

Of course, whether this is actually happening is open to debate...

That's what I think. G'nite.

One walked down 89 flights of stairs from Tower 2 just after Tower 1 was hit.

One missed his train and arrived at the Holland Tunnel in his car just in time to see that it was closed.

One is somewhere in a field in Pennsylvania, no body to bury, a smoking hole is his grave.

One never left his desk that Tuesday morning, missing a 9 am meeting that would've taken him out of the building. He was on 91.

One made it to the 38th floor after walking down the stairs, telephoned a friend, remarked that the stairs were impassible and he would find another way out. He did not call again.

One left his office and telephoned his wife in his attempt to exit the building. He promised to call from the street. His memorial serivce was last week. He never reached the street.

Those involved: 6
Really lucky bastards: 1
Escaped: 1
Dead and never recovered: 4

Nobody can tell me that it was America's fault that 5000+ people died that day. It's not. It's the fault of a bunch of extremist militant Islamists who believe nobody but they are allowed to live on Earth. It's the fault of those who will kill Americans only because Americans are free people.

War is horrible, as people on this very board can attest, and the US has done some very dirty things in war. Dirty things that none the less allowed Americans to live the soft, cushy life of people mainly unthreatened by terrorists and war mongers. Dirty things that sent a message for 56 years, 3 weeks and 2 days that you DO NOT EVER attack on United States soil.

We have been so evil as to defend freedom worldwide, our sons and daughters have died for it in lands they would otherwise never see and for people who cannot say "Thank you" in English. They have endured being spit upon for doing a job their government called them to do, and they have gone forth knowing that they may not come home. The United States contributes billions of dollars in aid to disadvantaged peoples world wide, takes in the 'tired, meek and poor' of other nations who escape to America, gives tuition breaks and government assistance to these new immigrants so they may study in our universities while American kids pay full price. When there's an earthquake, a flood, or some other natural disaster, Americans put aside their daily lives and rush to help. Americans dig deep into their pockets and donate money to buy food and medicine for impoverished countries in the Middle East, Asia and Africa.

We've done it all despite the outright lies being taught to those in foreign lands, lies such as in Egypt's offical newspaper printed by the editor assigned by Egypt's governor that the United States has genetically modified and otherwise poisoned supplies because the US has a sinister plot to exterminate Islam.

We continue to give, only to hear that we did not give enough, we gave too soon, we are bullies, we are evil, we are Satan, we murder innocents...

We watch people use the very freedom that Americans have fought and died to bring to them as a means to insult us, criticize us, slander us, spread outright lies about us, and abuse us. We know we are not the world's saviour, but we have contributed much and received little in the way of thanks - unless of course being swindled on European streets and insulted in newspapers is 'thanks'.

My post is already long, so I'll end it with one final thought:

Once before in history a group of people was told to look at themselves to find out why they are hated, as many people today are suggesting Americans do.

That time was the 1930s and that group was Jews.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

btw interesting article:

quote:

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Originally written by Jonah Goldberg:
I recently read that the Pakistani Institute for Policy Studies wants children to be taught that cause and effect do not exist. Cause and effect! (For example, students should be informed that when you mix oxygen and hydrogen, "Allah wills" water to be created. I would think this would be blasphemy, since it means I can command Allah to do my bidding every time I mix oxygen and hydrogen.) ...< snip >... there has not been a single important new idea conceived outside the West in over a century.

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Not that we are capable, but that they were not.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

On one hand, we have Leb. He (she?) posted an impressive amount of material that spans, at times, over a thousand years of history. As whiskey pointed out, it is quite an essay.

On the other hand, we have kuru. Her post was not even a tenth as long as Leb's post, and didn't have an impressive display of research or clever wording. It did, however, have something that Leb's post was totally devoid of: love.

I was barely able to read half of what Leb posted. This was not because I am stupid (which I might very well be), but because it contained a non-stop litany of hateful propaganda, speculation, conspiracy-theory, and some outright lies (an Islamic woman planning revenge? Think about that for a minute).

I hung on every single word of kuru's post. She made my heart ache with sadness, and soar with pride. Never once did she call anyone names, nor did she attack a country or a religion, despite the fact that she was immediately and deeply scarred by this event. In doing so, she represented to me what we, as a country, are all about, and what we, as a country, really are made of underneath our "roll-neck sweaters" and our "cords".

Two people, two posts, two emotions, two representations. I know who I want to be associated with.

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--Jynx

I used to be a kleptomanicac, but I took something for it.

quote:

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Once there was a man, his name I cannot remember, who lived a very interesting life.

He ran from Russia to Germany to escape the Communists.

He ran from Germany to Cuba to escape the Nazis.

He ran from Cuba to America to escape the communists once again. Finally he said "I am in America, and I know I will never run again, for..."

This is where he did not say "America is the land of milk and honey, which can do no wrong and grants everyone their fondest wishes. It is a great land where everyone is rich and no one ever feels any pain."

"... for if ever I must run from America, I will know: there is no place left to run to."

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Freedom is worth any price. My four friends (three in NYC and one in Pennsylvania) paid that price, unknowingly, but I doubt they'd take it back now if they could.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

This message has been edited by kuru on November 08, 2001 at 03:01 PM

quote:

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Originally posted by kuru:
Somebody else, wiser than me, related this story. I think you guys should read it.

Freedom is worth any price. My four friends (three in NYC and one in Pennsylvania) paid that price, unknowingly, but I doubt they'd take it back now if they could.

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I know his name!

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"just pressin y0 butt0ns f00" -- miNus