So what do you peeps think of this? Is handing out antidepressants to people who are moderately depressed a good thing? Do you have any personal experience (you, your friend, your mom) with them?

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< http://www.ath0.net >

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

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< http://www.ath0.net >

On the other hand, drugs such as Paxil are designed to alter your brain chemistry and thus can have serious side effects. If you are not depressed in the first place, or do not have a long-lasting form of depression (several months or more) then you definitely should not be taking drugs like Paxil.

There are literally millions of people in the US alone who are taking drugs to help them with clinical depression, social anxiety disorder, and similar problems. This is perfectly legitimate, and you shouldn't look at someone who takes drugs for one of these conditions any different than someone who takes penicillin for a case of strep throat. On the other hand, it would not be advisable to take antidepressants if you are not clinically depressed, which is why, as far as I know, they are only available by prescription.

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< http://www.ath0.net >

Anyway, there wouldn't be any point to passing them out like pixy stix. It takes 1-2 weeks before you can even tell it's doing anything, and 6-8 weeks before it really kicks in. Popping one won't do a damn thing, except make you feel a little tired for a couple hours.

psaph : Paxil is nothing like the shit they gave everyone in THX 1138. It's not a sedative. If anything it makes you MORE resistant to control, because you're more willing to say what's on your mind. Also, depression causes your thinking to become cloudy, so you can't concentrate. On Paxil, your mind clears up as the depression recedes, making you think more clearly, not less.

I'll agree, it's not a good idea to take antidepressants if you're not clinically depressed. They won't necessarily harm you, but the risk of serotonin syndrome (mania, irritibility, getting a permanent erection which can cause your dick to die, if your bladder doesn't explode first) increases.

Anyway, if you really truly feel depressed a lot of the time for no apparent reason, I recommend talking to a doctor. Also check out < this link. >

I know, I'm preaching, but damn, it seems like there are a lot of depressed people on this bb.

The only concern I have with things like this are how easily they're prescribed. It's a short term solution that people are relying on far too much.

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"Don't do that son, you'll go blind."
"I'm over here, dad."

< http://www.ath0.net >

Well, that's a TOTALLY different question, isn't it?
/me smacks forhead

YES! I think doctors are doing a great thing by prescribing pills for ANY chemical embalance. People say that it's given out too often, but that's because so many people do have things that could be fixed with pills. Don't get me wrong... I'm not one of those "in pills we trust" guys, but look around you... how many people are wearing glasses??? Is it a crime to correct imperfections in the human body? Vision has been much more accepted as something to correct, because it's ODVIOUS when people can see. Now that doctors can diagnose chemical problems, it's time to start correcting that too.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

quote:

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Originally posted by psaph:
The only concern I have with things like this are how easily they're prescribed. It's a short term solution that people are relying on far too much.

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I dunno... antidepressants make a lot of headlines, but I wonder if they're prescribed enough relative to some other drugs.

Take Ritalin, for example... I know entirely too many people that were given Ritalin because they supposedly have ADD. Ritalin is a pretty evil drug (basically a mild form of speed) and it's handed out like candy here in the US.

The thing is, Ritalin didn't make *any* of my friends learn any more, because they didn't have ADD. They were just bright kids who were really bored. All it did was make them sit quietly in class instead of fucking off and causing problems. Most of them stopped taking it after a week or two and never told their parents.

quote:

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Originally posted by PersonGuy:
Now that doctors can diagnose chemical problems, it's time to start correcting that too.

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That's rubbish. Since when are humans so fragile that they need to use pills every day to become 'normal'? The pill taking attitude is a state of mind -not- a reality. Since when did people need all these drugs to survive? Instead of combatting the depression with more and more drugs.. why not attack the problem at it's source.

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"Don't do that son, you'll go blind."
"I'm over here, dad."

< http://www.ath0.net >

This is not to say that all depression stems from this one possible cause. There are others, which can be resolved without medication. However, chemical depression existed before it could be diagnosed as such; and conventional therapy is not terribly effective in treating such, now or in the past.

quote:

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Originally posted by psaph:
The only concern I have with things like this are how easily they're prescribed. It's a short term solution that people are relying on far too much.

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In Australia, Paxil is called Aropax 20. I got that info for you< here >.

I agree that there are some instances where docs hand out drugs for no good reason. It sucks, and one of the big problems in the US is the rise of HMOs. Before HMOs, you could go to pretty much any doctor you pleased. If your doctor treated you like shit- never explained anything to you, was rude, etc.- you could change doctors.

With an HMO you usually don't have a choice. Once you pick your Primary Care Physician you're kind of stuck, and you don't have that much of a choice to begin with. You need a referal to go to a specialist, and the HMOs have ways of dicouraging that extra expense. A lot of HMOs are encouraging PCPs to treat depression and only send the REALLY crazy ones to the (better paid, and thus more expensive) psychiatrists.

That situation is pretty fux0red, if you ask me. Personally, I went to a therapist, who referred me to a psychiatrist. He asked a lot of questions to see whether I needed talk therapy, medication, or both. He decided I probably don't need therapy (though he still said it would be good to go).

Anyway, I'm the guy that started the "Why do people hate drugs? They rule!" so of course I think Paxil is pretty cool. You can't get nothing like it on the street

Edit : fixed the link

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on December 13, 2000 at 12:40 PM

So long, stinktown!

Mike

PS, it's Fluoxetine (prozac)

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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

I agree that the idea of just taking pills to solve all your problems (As in _Brave New World_) isn't a good one, but we don't look down on diabetics because they need daily shots to keep their insulin levels up; why should we look down on someone who has to take drugs in order to keep their seratonin up at healthy levels?

paroxetene (Paxil) works just dandy on me. I'm not as irritated with life as I was... so yeah, it DOES open you up to new things. At the moment I'm listening to classical music, which I wouldn't have done before because it would've bothered me for some reason.

It's interesting to note that there are at least a dozen variants on the neurotransmitter 5-HT (serotonin). Hallucinogens and amphetamines also increase transmission of the various 5-HTs, but in different ways than the antidepressants. But I'm noting some definate similarities between Paxil and psilocybin...

Clinical depression is kinda the exception as thats chemical and not pyscological.

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
Clinical depression is kinda the exception as thats chemical and not pyscological.

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that's the thing... I searched and searched for something fucked up that happened to me, or something I had to resolve, and eventually I came to the conclusion that there really WASN'T anything psychological. I'd feel normal, and relatively happy, and then for no good reason I'd get terribly depressed, irritable, and angry, and I'd stay that way for a month or two before swinging back to normal. It sucked.

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"Don't do that son, you'll go blind."
"I'm over here, dad."

< http://www.ath0.net >

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"Don't do that son, you'll go blind."
"I'm over here, dad."

< http://www.ath0.net >

quote:

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Originally posted by psaph:
It's not a chemical imbalance it's a social imbalance. But that's just my opinion, do what you like.

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I'm really impressed that you made that diagnosis after viewing 3 or 4 posts. You must some kind of super psychiatrist.

"You have.. ..leprosy. Thank you for using virtual doctor. (From the makers of Kings Quest and Sim City)"

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aventari
"Q: How do you tell an extrovert computer scientist? A: He looks at _your_ shoes when he talks to you."

quote:

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Originally posted by psaph:
Should you be prescribed a drug to help you deal with life? Or should you just change your lifestyle?

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IT"S A F!@#ING ILLNESS, NOT A LIFESTYLE PROBLEM!

Sorry for shouting, but this is very important. Depression has way too much of a stigma atttatched to it, because people don't realize that it is a medical condition with physiological causes, not some sort of personal or psychological weekness.

psaph: If you discovered tomorrow that you had become diabetic, would you be opposed to being prescribed a drug to help you "deal with life" and simply try to keep your blood sugar balanced through "natural" means? If you have a sore throat, and you are diagnosed with Strep, do you take antibiotics or do you let the infection take its course?

I understand the point you are trying to make. I myself have mild depression on occasion, but I know better than to take pills simply to make me feel better. Anti-depressants don't even begin to have effects until after at least two weeks of taking them, so it would be stupid for me to start popping pills every time I had a bad day.

However, that does not negate the point that there are many people in the world who have a MEDICAL condition caused by CHEMICAL imbalances and not any personal inability to cope with life, and such people should be free to have this ILLNESS treated just as you would treat any other long-term illness.

I have at least two friends, probably more, who are coping with clinical depression, and I would much rather see them pop a pill than commit suicide, which is how 1/6 of cases of depression end if untreated.

quote:

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Originally posted by psaph:
Since when are humans so fragile that they need to use pills every day to become 'normal'?

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Since when are humans so fragile that they need to use glasses/contacts every day to become 'normal'? NEVER DAMMIT! People can 'survive' fine without them. But since the technology has arived for either one, it's been very convinient!

Just because the correction is internal instead of external, people are too quick to swear it off!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

I so agree about the chemical need for drugs, and I believe in the need for chemical companies to make money to survive. I don't think they go so far as to chemically manipulate society, merely that they just don't have all the answers.

But that's a separate issue... they used to put floride in the water, and they weren't expecting everyone to grow up to be floride junkies, and it didn't help dentists any...

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Sounds like to old tale of a car that runs on water that the oil companys purchased and then sat on. Not bloody likely

Planned obsolesence is for sure a very real phenomenon built into almost everything, but it's definately not some massively orchestrated action.

I have no doubt that some doctors lean towards giving drugs to patients because of drug companies, but i'll bet 99\% of them are not going to intentionally do something detremental to said patients health. Hippocratic oath anyone?

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aventari
"Q: How do you tell an extrovert computer scientist? A: He looks at _your_ shoes when he talks to you."

The same goes with the ceramic engine. First of all, car companies don't give a damn what the oil companies think; they care what CONSUMERS think. And they're not about to go sell there precious ceramic engine patent to an oil company, when they could make MUCH more money in the long term thru both manufacturing and licensing.

"Planned obsolescence" mostly applies to 1. manufacturers adding new features to their products, and 2. software vendors not making their file formats backwards-compatible.

Even in the computer industry, though, you don't get THAT much P.O. Look at it this way - how many of you still have ISA slots in your computer? Those hit the market in 1981!!!

Antidepressants are, in my opinion, a bad thing. I don't care how great whoever out there feels about life now, I think they're bad idea.

Unhappiness is a part of life. It's something you have to deal with. More than that, it's neccesary, but I'll get to that in a bit. Just because you're unhappy doesn't mean you have some chemical imbalance that makes it impossible for you to be happy. There's no way, with the amount of people who are on antidepressants, that each and every one could actually be in need of them, because that would mean that there is something seriously, SERIOUSLY wrong, biologically, with the people of America, for so many people to have children with a chemical imbalance like that.

Now, on to what I mentioned earlier: Unhappiness is neccesary. Let me put it like this: Let's say you're walking in the woods, all of a sudden you pass by a thorn bush. A branch brushes up against your leg, you've got a thorn caught in your leg, and it fucking hurts. In your backpack, you have a swiss army knife and a bottle of painkillers. The swiss army knife has tweasers, and you can get the thorn out with them. It might take a few minutes, and it might take some effort, but you'll get it out. The painkillers won't get the thorn out, but you'll stop hurting, and you won't have to do anything.

So which do you choose? The swiss army knife, right? Right. Only an idiot would leave the thorn in there, it could infected and get worse. think about it. For a large, large portion of the people on antidepressants, there's a reason they're unhappy. It's not because they've got something wrong with them, it's because they're in a situation that's bad. But do they take the swiss army knife, and use the tools they have to fix it? No, they take the painkillers, the antidepressants, because it makes them feel better, even though things only get worse for them. If you're unhappy, it's incredibly, incredibly likely there's something wrong with the situation you're in, and not your brain.

I, personally, am incredibly unhappy and depressed a LOT. But you know what? I'm taking the initiative to try and work things out for myself so that I'll get into a situation that's better for me. I'm working on planning my future, trying to find ways to work out my situation. It isn't easy, it's taking a long time, but in the end, my situation will be better.

Docs handing out pills like candy are jack offs, people who don't need it and try to defend it by saying they do are passive, lazy fucks.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
Docs handing out pills like candy are jack offs, people who don't need it and try to defend it by saying they do are passive, lazy fucks.

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And people who make judgements without knowing what the fuck they're talking about are complete and utter idiots.

Dude, you have just shown that you have a complete lack of understanding about how antidepressants work. They're not painkillers, they don't make you numb, they don't make you happy, they just make you less depressed.

Pain is part of life. I'll agree with that. But DEPRESSION is not healthy, or productive. I often got so depressed that I didn't want to do anything but stay in my room with the covers pulled over my head. I dragged myself outside and did shit anyway. I tried changing my diet, I tried exercise, I tried socializing more, I tried changing the way I think, I tried changing my lifestyle, I quit using caffeine, alcohol, and weed; I tried just about everything I could to get over it.

NOTHING WORKED. It just kept coming back, and each time it did it made less sense to me.

I thought about visiting the doc for about 2 years before I finally did it.

Does that make me passive and lazy and in search of a quick fix?

edit : fixed UBB code.

This message has been edited by damien_s_lucifer on December 14, 2000 at 05:01 PM

Basic points: You are retarded, and somehow missed something which I stated REPEATEDLY. (I never said "ALL", I said a "LARGE AMOUNT".)

I know the difference between painkillers and antidepressants, but that's why it's a METAPHOR. The details are different, but the mechanics of the situation are the same.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
I know the difference between painkillers and antidepressants, but that's why it's a METAPHOR. The details are different, but the mechanics of the situation are the same.

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Right, and MY point was that the mechanics are most definately NOT the same. Your metaphor is piss-poor. Antidepressants are morew likely to make people get OUT of a bad situation, because they make you realize you don't have to put up with that kind of shit. Think American Beauty, think Lester Burnham... that's the shit antidepressants do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
I know the difference between painkillers and antidepressants, but that's why it's a METAPHOR. The details are different, but the mechanics of the situation are the same.

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What, you have access to some sort of wonder-drug painkillers that spontaneously cause your wounds to close up and heal? Why weren't these things made available to the general public? And besides, depression isn't a wound that heals quickly, it's a disease that people deal with for years at a time.

"'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: / look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.'"

What you seem to be saying in your posts is that you think that you're somehow stronger than other people because you try to fight depression without resorting to chemical means. First of all, you may not even have experieced severe depression (neither have I for that matter) and if so you aren't exactly qualified to judge others, and second of all, remember how the poem ends:

"Nothing beside remains. Round the decay / of that collossal wreck, boundless and bare / the lone and level sands stretch far away."

Bear in mind the fate of those who rely too much on their own strength, and who believe that they are immune to the troubles that others face...

People are just getting defensive in an attempt to justify their use of them. I understand and agree with what you're saying Ozy, the fact that doctors hand them out so readily is the problem that I have. Doctors diagnose people as clinically depressed far more than they should.

Before you all completely dismiss what he said try to understand the point. We're not saying that either you or the antidepressants themselves are bad, it's just that they're prescribed so readily and easily and are becoming an easy way out for a rapidly growing number of people. We're not attacking YOU or YOUR use of them. Maybe you're within the 5\% of people prescribed these drugs that actually need them.

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"Don't do that son, you'll go blind."
"I'm over here, dad."

< http://www.ath0.net >

On the other hand, antidepressants alone are not enough to cure depression permanently; if you use the drugs to make you feel better but don't also act to improve your life, the depression will come back the moment you stop taking the drugs. However, it is a lot easier to work on improving your life with the good mood and higher energy that those drugs give you. The drugs alone are not enough, and it is possible to recover without them, but antidepressants make that recovery much easier.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
...Just because you're unhappy doesn't mean you have some chemical imbalance that makes it impossible for you to be happy.

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How, exactly, do you know that? Just asking.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
There's no way, with the amount of people who are on antidepressants, that each and every one could actually be in need of them...

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Do you even know how many people are on antidepressants, or are you relying on sensationalistic media? Again, just a question.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
So which do you choose? The swiss army knife, right? Right.

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Actually, I would choose both. In fact, lemme make your metaphor a little more accurate:

You are fishing, and you manage to put a nice large hook into your hand. You just so happen to have some fast-acting painkillers, plus some wire-cutters and pliers. Which do you use? I would use both! I would use the painkiller to lessen the pain, so that I could effectively use the pliers and cutters to get the hook out. You see, pharmacological solutions just keep you from being distracted while you solve the root problem. So, now I ask you--what's wrong with a little painkiller?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
For a large, large portion of the people on antidepressants, there's a reason they're unhappy.

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Again, how do you know this, and where is the research? Darn, another annoying question again.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
It's not because they've got something wrong with them, it's because they're in a situation that's bad.

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HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS??? This seems to me to be an unfair and inaccurate portrayal of depression, to me. Ozy, how can you justify this statement?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
I'm taking the initiative to try and work things out for myself so that I'll get into a situation that's better for me.

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And what happens when you're into that better situation, and you're still depressed? Then what?

quote:

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Originally posted by Ozymandias:
Docs handing out pills like candy are jack offs, people who don't need it and try to defend it by saying they do are passive, lazy f@#ks.

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Tell ya what--get your M.D. and come back and say that, then maybe I'll listen to this statement.

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--Jynx

We do not make software "releases" -- our software escapes, leaving a bloody trail of desginers and quality assurance people in it's wake...

quote:

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Originally posted by dsmoov:
I love people, even the stupid ones. I laugh a lot more now. And I also realized how rediculous life is.

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hee hee hee... me too

Psaph and Ozymandias, your posts are hilarious... esp. ozy!!! Do you really think you are so big and tough and strong-willed you can kick depression's ass? Do you really think it's worth your time? 'cause it sure as hell wasn't worth mine.

I don't view myself as "ill," or "needing" a drug. I am just bright enough and open minded enough to realize that there isn't much point to struggling against feeling like shit for no reason, when I can take a little pink pill and suddenly everything is amusing.

Oh yeah, I can and do get sad / depressed sometimes. The difference is that now it's about stuff that really matters.

* Or if you want that more scientifically: Depression centers around problems with certain neurotransmitters, most notably seratonin, which is what most antidepressants work on, and also noradrenaline. The former controls sleep, and various drives such as sex, eating, etc. The latter is responsible for levels of physiological arousal including the amount of oxygen that is carried by your blood. Neurotransmitters are stored inside of the tips of nerve axons, and are then released once nerve impulses add up to a certain amount. They then cross the very small gap known as the synaptic cleft and are received by a different nerve cell, triggering an electrical impulse in that cell. Next, the neurotransmitters are released by the receivers and are re-absorbed into the original nerve cell. Problems occur when 1) there aren't enough neurotransmitters to start with, 2) the receptacles don't manage to catch the neurotransmitters as easily, or 3) the neurotransmitters are not re-absorbed by the original cell, among other problems. Since the biggest problem is the receptacles not picking up those neurotransmitters quick enough, selective seratonin reuptake inhibitors such as Prozac and Paxil work by delaying the re-absorption of seratonin, allowing more seratonin to fix onto the receptacles in the post-synaptic cell and thus increase the effect produced to make up for the "clogged" receptacles.

It's been a year now since I studied Psychobiology, so I may have gotten a few facts wrong up there, but the basic idea is the same. Depression causes your brain to get slowed down and operate at less than peak efficiency, and antidepressants basically allow you to operate like normal again.

Studies have shown that antidepressants alone do little to cure depression in the long run, but they make it a lot easier to be willing and able to work towards a real solution.

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"I have no words; My voice is in my sword," - Macduff

quote:

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Originally posted by Michael:
Studies have shown that antidepressants alone do little to cure depression in the long run, but they make it a lot easier to be willing and able to work towards a real solution.

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Wow, man, that explanation was pretty in-depth. I agree with you on the fact that antidepressants don't "cure" depression. This idea that "depression is biological" is somewhat true, but sometimes people take that a little too seriously. I'd say that some people have a predisposition to getting depressed, but a lot of it is learned also.

Anything you learn will be reflected in your neural wiring and chemistry; take a look at a few brain scans and you'll see what I mean : "here is a brain scan of a person at rest. Here is a brain scan of a person playing piano." etc.

Depression tends to reinforce itself; the emotional side of it causes physical effects, which then turn around and cause you to become more emotionally depressed, etc. Antidepressants break this cycle. If you take them long enough, you eventually learn how to live your life differently.

quote:

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Originally posted by psaph:
People are just getting defensive in an attempt to justify their use of them. We're not attacking YOU or YOUR use of them.

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Whoa... whoa... whoa... Hellooooo? (as far as I know) I haven't volentarily take any drugs besides marijana and caffeen (and I RARELY use them (especially weed... I stopped) ). I don't take pain killers or medication unless it's life threatening. And that's not cause I'm weird or something, I just never seem to get sick...

But my point is, I'm not defending it to justify ANYTHING. Just like your whole arguments against it are based on stupid assumptions, assuming that I take antidepressants (or any pills for that matter) is really... uh... shtupid (for lack of a better word)!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
jesus christ man, is there anything you couldnt give a half hour lecture on?

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I posted that simply to make it clear that depression is indeed a biological condition and not simply a psychological problem... the in-depth explanation was to make it clear that I do know what I am talking about, have studied this subject, and am not just making stuff up when I say that depression is something that is very hard to "beat" on your own simply by changing your lifestyle or how you think.