Topic: Holy fucking shit....
started by: DeadAnztac
....this hadn't occured to me... think about this? Can you think of any better spring point for Osama Bin Laden's plans of the West Vs. United Islam? That is besides the obvious problem we SHOULD have with starving 7.5 million people...
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~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
This message has been edited by DeadAnztac on November 07, 2001 at 09:02 PM
This message has been edited by Vigilante on November 07, 2001 at 09:08 PM
In the end, we're doing a hell of a lot more good.
OUR SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ ARE NOT KILLING ANYONE. IT IS SUDDAM HOUSSAIN, WHO GASSES THE KURDS AND STARVES HIS PEOPLE FOR MILITARY PURPOSES.
jeez dude, get in touch with reality.
as for the article:
WE ARE CURRENTLY AT WAR WITH AFGHANISTAN. WE DIDN'T SEND FOOD TO THE FUCKING NAZI'S, DID WE?
you should all just dismiss this article entirely.
This message has been edited by CatKnight on November 07, 2001 at 09:58 PM
There's a big difference between a German war machine and a broken country in the midst of socio-political turmoil.
Pull you fucking head out of your ass.
It hurts us more than it hurts them!Seriously, it's not like we've been looking for new targets to test out our technology. The opportunity sort of arose as a bunch of fucknuggets hurt us, then a bunch of other fucknuggets decided to help that first bunch hide. It's not like Raytheon designs hospital seeking bombs here. We're doing more humanitarian aid than ever has been done for this desert before. We're not taking the policy, though much desired around the land, of making the whole place into a sheet of glass.
Although, I find the 15,000 lb bombs somewhat entertaining.
The starving people in Afghanistan are starving because the Taliban decided that Osama was more important to them than their people.
Just because we're(the U.S.) bombing the Taliban doesn't make it our fault that the Taliban is a bunch of fucknuggets.
quote:
Originally posted by CatKnight:
*sigh*OUR SANCTIONS AGAINST IRAQ ARE NOT KILLING ANYONE. IT IS SUDDAM HOUSSAIN, WHO GASSES THE KURDS AND STARVES HIS PEOPLE FOR MILITARY PURPOSES.
jeez dude, get in touch with reality.
Um...This I realize. If you had the attention span to read more than the first sentence of my post, you might even have figured that out for yourself.
Btw for future reference that's "Saddam Hussein"
This message has been edited by sHuoReNviOLiN on November 07, 2001 at 11:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by veistran:
saddam sells more than enough oil to feed his people, because he chooses to not do it does not make the reason people are starving in Iraq the sanctions. It means that Saddam is a stupid fuck that doesn't care about his people.The starving people in Afghanistan are starving because the Taliban decided that Osama was more important to them than their people.
Just because we're(the U.S.) bombing the Taliban doesn't make it our fault that the Taliban is a bunch of fucknuggets.
I LOVE your reasoning here. Because the people in power are really bad people and we don't like them or the company they keep(which I think 99\% of the world will agree with), we should punish the 90\% of the country who are NOT members of the government, who didn't elect them, who have no power to fight them (they are starving after all, and malnurished, unarmed desert people don't exactly make a good fighting force) buy not allowing the internasional groups to bring in food to them. Ya, this will really make them love us when the war is all over.
Why should they love us after the war is over? Will it be because we brought them a democratic government? Nope, because if we do what we have historically done (ie, what daddy Bush and Uncle Reagan did), we will replace the Taliban with whatever group(s) helped us out during the war. Guess who is helping us out? Groups that make the Taliban look like warm, fuzzy kindergarden teachers. I shit you not. So, we will probably leave them with a government that is even worst than they currently have, but it will be more friendly towards us, for a while anyway. Ya, that'll really be a good reason to love us (you dumbass).
There are plenty of good reasons a significant percentage of the world truely hates us. Guess what? A lot of the reasons are true. It's because of our shortsighted, ego-centric, bottome-line-is-the-only-important-thing views, and the fact that we "forget" about a lot of the dumb shit we do to other countries/cultures/ethnic groups and then wonder wtf they don't like us and act all inocent. Just proves my views that most politicians need to be shot. Bush needs to be shot twice. Same with Daddy Bush and Reagan. Use a buck shot on Clinton, let him go slowly. Mini gun for the rest.
Ok, I'm done being pissed out our forieng policies for tonight.
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10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
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This message has been edited by Vigilante on November 08, 2001 at 02:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
[B]The people of Afghanistan are hardly Nazis, you stupid fuck.There's a big difference between a German war machine and a broken country in the midst of socio-political turmoil. B]
Which is why we're trying to feed them, too.
quote:
Btw for future reference that's "Saddam Hussein"
Nitting grammar, the last ditch effort to jump on the flame wagon.
People starve all over the world, not becasue of war, but because their governments are irresponsible totalitarianisms. Look at the Big Picture™.
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quote:
Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.
quote:
Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
The people of Afghanistan are hardly Nazis, you stupid fuck
actually, the nazi's only terrorized/mass murdered around 1/5 of their population, not 1/2 
quote:
Originally posted by askheaves:
Although, I find the 15,000 lb bombs somewhat entertaining.
Mmmmmm..big blue, the daisy cutter, portable landing pads. When in doubt blow out their ear drums and make their eyes bleed.
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Note to self: Stop writing your sig while you're drunk.
quote:
Originally posted by CatKnight:
actually, the nazi's only terrorized/mass murdered around 1/5 of their population, not 1/2
The people of Afghanistan...not their rulers. Again, we have this amazing inability to read past the first sentence.
This message has been edited by sHuoReNviOLiN on November 08, 2001 at 10:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
I LOVE your reasoning here. Because the people in power are really bad people and we don't like them or the company they keep(which I think 99\% of the world will agree with), we should punish the 90\% of the country who are NOT members of the government, who didn't elect them, who have no power to fight them (they are starving after all, and malnurished, unarmed desert people don't exactly make a good fighting force) buy not allowing the internasional groups to bring in food to them. Ya, this will really make them love us when the war is all over.Why should they love us after the war is over? Will it be because we brought them a democratic government? Nope, because if we do what we have historically done (ie, what daddy Bush and Uncle Reagan did), we will replace the Taliban with whatever group(s) helped us out during the war. Guess who is helping us out? Groups that make the Taliban look like warm, fuzzy kindergarden teachers. I shit you not. So, we will probably leave them with a government that is even worst than they currently have, but it will be more friendly towards us, for a while anyway. Ya, that'll really be a good reason to love us (you dumbass).
There are plenty of good reasons a significant percentage of the world truely hates us. Guess what? A lot of the reasons are true. It's because of our shortsighted, ego-centric, bottome-line-is-the-only-important-thing views, and the fact that we "forget" about a lot of the dumb shit we do to other countries/cultures/ethnic groups and then wonder wtf they don't like us and act all inocent. Just proves my views that most politicians need to be shot. Bush needs to be shot twice. Same with Daddy Bush and Reagan. Use a buck shot on Clinton, let him go slowly. Mini gun for the rest.
Ok, I'm done being pissed out our forieng policies for tonight.
I could care less if anyone likes us.
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
I LOVE your reasoning here. Because the people in power are really bad people and we don't like them or the company they keep(which I think 99\% of the world will agree with), we should punish the 90\% of the country who are NOT members of the government, who didn't elect them, who have no power to fight them (they are starving after all, and malnurished, unarmed desert people don't exactly make a good fighting force) buy not allowing the internasional groups to bring in food to them. Ya, this will really make them love us when the war is all over.
And you believe this food would get thru to the people, and not the military, how? Iraq has had for some time the ability to feed its own people, yet the reports are still that 1 million Iraqi children are dying per month. Why should the Taliban be any different?
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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."
This message has been edited by Observer on November 08, 2001 at 10:58 AM
And for those of you who do not care what the rest of the world thinks about us: IT IS THIS MINDSET THAT LED TO SEPTEMBER 11TH!!! OUR STUPID MOTHERFUCKING GOVERNMENT DIDN'T CARE EITHER BECAUSE THEY HAD THE SAME FUCKED UP ETHICAL SYSTEM THAT YOU HAVE, SO THEY COMMITTED ACTIONS THAT WHILE WERE BENIFICIAL TO US IN THE SHORT TERM(LOWER GAS PRICES FOR A FEW MONTHS) THEY PISSED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OFF AND MADE ENTIRE GENERATIONS HATE US WITH A HATRED THAT WE HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED!!! SO WHILE YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK, I BET YOU THE VICTUMS OF SEPTEMBER 11TH GIVE A FUCK! GO SIT IN THE CORNER NOW, YOU DON'T DESERVE THE FREEDOMS THAT OUR COUNTRY GIVE YOU.
I hate people who can't see the Big Picture. We are not the center of the World. We are like the big, dumb bully on the playground. Yes, we are big, we are powerful, and we do have lots of money. But that comes from fucking over all the other kids and beating them down into submission. But we all know what happens to the school bully. Sooner or later all the kids get together to kick the bully's ass.
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10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
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quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
When you have groups like the Red Cross feed the people, they don't come into the country with truck loads of food, drive up the Taliban HQ and say "He's food for your people". THEY FUCKING GIVE IT OUT TO THE ACTUALLY PEOPLE YOU STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS! The Red Cross is trying to do what their government has failed to do: PUT FOOD TRAIGHT INTO THEIR HANDS!!!!!!!!!! And yes, I do believe that this action(feeding the hungry) will generate a better response than bombing them and their families.
Step B: Taliban comes raiding and takes the food away from the people.
That's -if- the Red Cross even manages to reach those people without being...detained.
quote:
Originally posted by sHuoReNviOLiN:
That's -if- the Red Cross even manages to reach those people without being...detained.
quote:
Originally posted by Observer:
Ok, your "first sentence" of that post [edit: The post you rag on CK about.] conflicts with the rest of it. The rest of your post points out how the rulers keep the resources and such from the people, but your first sentence blames the sanctions for killing the people. Please keep your thoughts together.
This message has been edited by afropik on November 08, 2001 at 02:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sHuoReNviOLiN:
Step B: Taliban comes raiding and takes the food away from the people.That's -if- the Red Cross even manages to reach those people without being...detained.
Well, then who do you think the people would hate? Us for giving them the food they really, really, really, want, oooooooor their government for taking it away from them?
Situation A:
We give the people(not the government) food. Taliban people come through aftward and take food away from people. People die.
Situation B:
We prevent the people from getting the food that is sitting at their borders. Taliban points to us and say we are the reason their children are dying. People die.
Now, who do you think the survivors will hate? Situation A: Taliban. Situation B: US!!!!!!
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10 PRINT "HOME"
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A starved soldier can't fight as well as one who's well fed. He can't do as much damage to our side. He likely won't kill as many Americans.
It's a hard thing to say, but now is not the time for dropping food. Now is the time for dropping bombs. I wish OBL and the Taliban had never made this necessary.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
It's a hard thing to say, but now is not the time for dropping food. Now is the time for dropping bombs.
I see.
Think you'd still say that if you lived in Afghanistan?
This is WAR, dude.
Yes, it sucks and it's ugly and it's mean, but it's GOT TO be done if we want America to survive.
Cause OBL... Al Qaida... are like the Terminator.
They absolutely will not stop until every last one of us is dead.
Get it?
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
And for those of you who do not care what the rest of the world thinks about us: IT IS THIS MINDSET THAT LED TO SEPTEMBER 11TH!!! OUR STUPID MOTHERFUCKING GOVERNMENT DIDN'T CARE EITHER BECAUSE THEY HAD THE SAME FUCKED UP ETHICAL SYSTEM THAT YOU HAVE, SO THEY COMMITTED ACTIONS THAT WHILE WERE BENIFICIAL TO US IN THE SHORT TERM(LOWER GAS PRICES FOR A FEW MONTHS) THEY PISSED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OFF AND MADE ENTIRE GENERATIONS HATE US WITH A HATRED THAT WE HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED!!! SO WHILE YOU DON'T GIVE A FUCK, I BET YOU THE VICTUMS OF SEPTEMBER 11TH GIVE A FUCK! GO SIT IN THE CORNER NOW, YOU DON'T DESERVE THE FREEDOMS THAT OUR COUNTRY GIVE YOU.I hate people who can't see the Big Picture. We are not the center of the World. We are like the big, dumb bully on the playground. Yes, we are big, we are powerful, and we do have lots of money. But that comes from fucking over all the other kids and beating them down into submission. But we all know what happens to the school bully. Sooner or later all the kids get together to kick the bully's ass.
So now I don't care what the world thinks at all because I don't care how popular the U.S. is with everyone else? That I don't care what the rest of the world thinks ABOUT the U.S. Is a TOTALLY different concept from me not caring what the world thinks at all. The major difference being, I like that the U.S. takes into account other's opinions and considers them and even changes it's mind on issues because of them, but I would NOT like it if the U.S.'s foriegn policy was centered around making everyone else happy. You seem to assume that anyone who disagree's with you is an ignorant fuck. Hell, you've made some pretty reasonable arguments and if you weren't such a pompous asshole I might even admit to taking them into consideration in formulating my opinion on this subject. However, I still believe that in this case shutting down the war for Red Cross to feed the Afghanistani's is not the best course of action.
So in conclusion, quit acting like you know best, and anyone that disagrees with you is an ignorant fuck and maybe people would actually ponder what you have to say.
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Veistran
- Sarcasm is just one more of the free services that we offer.
But hey...just "crawl across the border," folks! It's that easy. Never mind the bombs, the gunfire, the barren trek across the mountainous hell of Afghanistan. Kuru would have already crawled across by now, eagerly ditching her only home for some distant and disheveled camp.
Yes, the answers are so clear from behind our monitors, thousands of miles away. Perhaps I'll take a bubble bath and have a sip of cabernet and further mull over more justifications for the bombs over food argument.
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~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
quote:
Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
I see.Think you'd still say that if you lived in Afghanistan?
Would anyone say "Please bomb the hell out of my home?" It doesn't have to be popular to be right, and doesn't have to be right to be popular.
quote:
Originally posted by veistran:
Would anyone say "Please bomb the hell out of my home?" It doesn't have to be popular to be right, and doesn't have to be right to be popular.
You do realize we're concerned with the innocents here, right?
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~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
Maybe it is selfish... but the selfish tend to live longer.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
Surprising as it may be, I am more concerned about staying alive and free as an American than I am about the "innocents" in some other country.Maybe it is selfish... but the selfish tend to live longer.
Congratulations. You’ve just epitomized the problem with this country.
Pay attention, folks. Here stands the root of our demise.
It'll be brought about by people who abandon the Constitution, sacrifice our freedoms, and turn their backs on our way of life because that'll make the terrorists stop attacking us.
People who will fight for their survival usually survive. Those who cower and do whatever a totalitarian dictator tells them to for fear of death... don't last very long.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
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10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
30 GOTO 10
This message has been edited by ic0n0 on November 09, 2001 at 11:05 AM
since when is it our moral obligation to care for the entire world first, and us very last if there's enough room?
They got our attention. What i dont think they figured on was George W. having a spine. Something lacking from our CIC for the last 8 years.
Now its time for them to pay the price. They had a month to turn over a criminal. They had a month to turn a man over that has done this before and unless he is brought to justice one way or another he will do it again. What the terrorists did was an act of war. The taliban decided to toss their lot in with the terrorists. Now they are paying the price.
Now, for you whiny little fucknuggets out there. You have to look at this like an Eagles game. If you dont want to cheer for the home team, you better get the fuck out of the stadum before the fans kick the shit out of you.
You dont like the way this country does things? LEAVE! If you dont like the fact we are bombing the shit out of a country that attacked us. LEAVE! You dont like the fact we help other countries because you feel that we are doing it for our own intrests. LEAVE!
In this country one of your basic freedoms is you are free to leave.
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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >
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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"
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10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
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quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
...change peoples' opi[n]ons.
I would say at that point the speech isn't just "free" anymore. If you just present the facts in a logical argument, that's one thing. But taking a Baptist approach and trying to convert the masses does encroach on other people's beliefs and rights to believe as they choose. Almost analogous to what the US is accused of doing, by pushing its beliefs on other countries?
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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
Our demise isn't going to be brought about by being willing to stand up for ourselves knowing that when it's kill or be killed, we'll do the killing.It'll be brought about by people who abandon the Constitution, sacrifice our freedoms, and turn their backs on our way of life because that'll make the terrorists stop attacking us.
People who will fight for their survival usually survive. Those who cower and do whatever a totalitarian dictator tells them to for fear of death... don't last very long.
What the hell are you talking about?
I never said I am opposed to the war against the Taliban. I support the bombing. I want OBL dead. Make no mistake about this.
HOWEVER, we can't just go into a country where terrorists are hiding and act like we have God's right to fuck it all up. There are people that live there - innocent people - and they deserve to be taken care if we are going to launch a campaign in their only home...especially when that campaign is not being fought against the country, but rather a clandestine group of terrorists and their militant, fundamentalist pocketbook.
You don't want to feed these people? What the fuck?? You want everyone to starve because it'll "weaken the Taliban?"
You cruel, callous maggot...we even feed people before we execute them (and give them a fucking open menu as well), and we aren't going to feed innocent people in a country we are assaulting? I’m not saying you support the death row last meal…but I am saying our country does, and they’re the ones making the rules here.
quote:
It'll be brought about by people who abandon the Constitution, sacrifice our freedoms, and turn their backs on our way of life because that'll make the terrorists stop attacking us.
What the hell is this shit? Are you implying that this is my opinion? If so,
quote:
People who will fight for their survival usually survive. Those who cower and do whatever a totalitarian dictator tells them to for fear of death... don't last very long.
Yeah, because by feeding innocent Afghans and actually cleaning up our mess we are essentially giving totalitarian dictators their strength. With each refugee that makes it across the border, Hitler takes one nudge out of his grave.
I think it’s about time we stop acting like inconsiderate, uncompassionate, war-mongers. Yeah, I know – it’s easy to be an armchair general when you’re not dodging bombs and bullets.
Look, many innocent people died on September 11, but many innocent people are also dying in Afghanistan. Think about the people caught in OUR fray, and think about how pissed it made YOU feel on September 11. Put yourself in their shoes...you've been in them before.
Again, for the record, I whole-heartedly support our actions in Afghanistan...but let the record also show I support a major increase in food drops, medical aid, and funding towards refugee camps.
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfguard:
Now, for you whiny little fucknuggets out there. You have to look at this like an Eagles game. If you dont want to cheer for the home team, you better get the fuck out of the stadum before the fans kick the shit out of you.
Okay, dude. Rah rah rah.
quote:
You dont like the way this country does things? LEAVE! If you dont like the fact we are bombing the shit out of a country that attacked us. LEAVE! You dont like the fact we help other countries because you feel that we are doing it for our own intrests. LEAVE!In this country one of your basic freedoms is you are free to leave.
Hey, what a great idea! Let’s not actually try to make this country better. No no! Let’s just all LEAVE when all the fearless idiots get together and decide to kill off anyone we feel deserves to die.
Let me ask you, has their NEVER been anything you disapproved of that the US conducted? C'mon, Wolfie...I know there's something. Ruby Ridge? Waco? C'mon, tell us.
Then fucking leave.
In this country one of your basic freedoms is the right to speech and protest.
quote:
Originally posted by Observer:
I think Wolf's point was referring to people who just complain about the way the country is run without offering plausible solutions. True, there is that right to free speech, but if all they do is bitch without a good solution in mind, it's all empty.
So, are food drops and aid no longer plausible? Or are they just things that interfere with efficient killing?
Bitching without a “good” solution (whatever you may graciously deem as good) is just as empty as saying, “I support bombing with no food drops. Shit happens in war. People die.”
Okay, maybe not empty...just painfully obtuse.
quote:
Originally posted by veistran:
I think Wolfguard's point was, if they're so unhappy with the way things are and they don't want to do something to change them(hey, why not bitch at your elected represenatives instead of us?), they are welcome to go somwhere else where they'll be more happy with how things are.
Well, I want to do something to help this change happen...I want to try to instill a sense of compassion amongst the gung-ho. I want people to realize that just because we were attacked by a group of state-sponsored terrorists, and while all of us support a war against the Taliban, opposing things like food drops is cold-hearted and thoroughly disgusting. We have to help the innocent. It is as simple as that.
Opinions like the one Kuru shared on the other page really scare me, and frankly, make me sad.
BTW, Veistran, bitching “at your elected representatives instead of [you]” is a pretty lame argument. How about bitching to the people that probably voted for those representatives? I think that would be a bit more efficient, seeing how elected officials usually follow a rigid agenda.
This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on November 09, 2001 at 06:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
BTW, Veistran, bitching “at your elected representatives instead of [you]” is a pretty lame argument. How about bitching to the people that probably voted for those representatives? I think that would be a bit more efficient, seeing how elected officials usually follow a rigid agenda.
because, either way, if you don't bitch at your represenative s/he won't do shit?
And complaining to our elected officials means nothing if the entire rest of the country is whipped into such a patriotic ferver that it will listen to anything politicians say, as long as it's in the name of "All Americans stand for!". Talk about a convienent scapegoat for a personal, family, or religious agenda *COUGH*BUSH*COUGH*
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~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
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When 1337 hax0rs start impaling each other with swords and typing code with a hook on one hand, then they can modify the term "pirate."
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"Genitalia, while fun to play with, are rarely pleasant to look at"
This message has been edited by ic0n0 on November 09, 2001 at 12:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Observer:
I think Wolf's point was referring to people who just complain about the way the country is run without offering plausible solutions. True, there is that right to free speech, but if all they do is bitch without a good solution in mind, it's all empty.
Exactly.
After 5 weeks of bombings, what the hell did that accomplish? They are no closer to bin Laden than they were at the beginning. They have totally destroyed their homeland and "accidentally" hit the Red Cross building...TWICE. Good use of their precision bombs/GPS/whatever the fuck they have. Nice how they always say "yeah we can put this bomb through a stop sign/window from like 203892347 kms away cuz we have our superduper laser targeting system + gps with lots of other shit" but funny how it screws up so often.
Oh yeah, about the article in the first post, I totally agree with it. Those who don't should at least TRY to see some truth in it instead of being narrow-minded fools. Maybe you HAVE lost friends/family, but you should also think about what the US is doing to others, and multiply that by 100000.
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A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
Too much information about this crap floating around in my head.
Excuse me if I am unconcerned about the 'innocent' people in Afghanistan.
Maybe OBL and the Taliban should've thought of them before they started this war.
And perhaps the Taliban should stop committing massacres in churches and refugee camps.
Either way, I am not going to cry over the accidental deaths of a few Afghani civillians.
I already have four empty boxes, four urns full of dirt, to cry over.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
unlike kuru - i do vaguely give a fuck about the ppl of afgh. who aside from being bombed are quite likely to starve to death this winter and for what? US pride? makes me fucking sick. so by all means fight your war and install your puppet govt, try and execute OBL for being the devil or whatever. but until you declare a palestinian state this is never going to be over. so hurry the fuck up ok?
Your way of thinking will bring many more of your friends and family trouble in the future..
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
War contains collateral damage.Excuse me if I am unconcerned about the 'innocent' people in Afghanistan.
Maybe OBL and the Taliban should've thought of them before they started this war.
And perhaps the Taliban should stop committing massacres in churches and refugee camps.
Either way, I am not going to cry over the accidental deaths of a few Afghani civillians.
I already have four empty boxes, four urns full of dirt, to cry over.
You do realize the Taliban has been basically raping the Afghani people since they're cue, yes? That when we say innocents in Afghanistan we mean people litterally held hostage by the Taliban and it's fascist policies. The Taliban has never "taken the people into consideration." The people could not revolt, they've been starved, and crippled. Most children are orphaned. Women aren't allowed education, to walk outside without a male escort, or expose skin in public. The contries infrastructure is destroyed. The Taliban are the people with the guns and the money that hold the rest of the country hostage. So when we say millions of innocents will die, we mean that. The people will starve before the Taliban ever does. Thus why we should be FEEDING THESE PEOPLE. The people who live in detached cities have no hope of getting to another city for food, and they're aide (from the Red Cross, from the Feminist Majority, from Amnesty Intl.) have been blocked by us.
Summation: Millions of INNOCENT people are going to needlessly starve unless we get aide going again. The Taliban will be barely effected except that it will have millions of starved people mad at America that will deem America a worse evil then the Taliban and rally behind Osama Bin Laden.
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~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
To everybody else who thinks that I don't care about civillians dying, or that I look at this gladly, it isn't so.
I regret that OBL and the Taliban have caused this situation, and I'm very sorry that the 15 or 20 million "innocent" people in Afghanistan (who significantly outnumber the Taliban) have not gotten rid of such a horrid regime.
I'm not sorry that I want to survive, and I'm not sorry that I put my own life above someone else's. The evidence exists and has been presented to this criminal regime that OBL was and still is behind terrorist attacks and acts of war against the United States. The Taliban has willfully harbored a war criminal, a terrorist, and is thereby guilty of the same crimes. The "innocent" Afghanis have fled, and those who remain to prop up, supply, feed, and sheild the enemy are no longer "innocent civillians".
Please do not assume this makes me glad that they are dying. I do not, and never have, taken death gladly. Killing is the last recourse, and it is something I condone only with serious trepidation and a heavy heart. If there were anyway to settle this diplomatically, I would support it. However, these people want us dead, they want the United States and its way of life wiped from Earth, and they will not stop. All the options now are unattractive, this one is just the least so.
And before you ask if I'd like it if someone else was bombing my home - someone did bomb my home. That's why I support wiping their militaristic terrorist government off this planet.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
The "innocent" Afghanis have fled, and those who remain to prop up, supply, feed, and sheild the enemy are no longer "innocent civillians".
Go watch the movie < Focus >.
You'll learn a thing or two about leaving (and refusing to leave) your home in the face of evil.
quote:
and before you ask if I'd like it if someone else was bombing my home - someone did bomb my home. That's why I support wiping their militaristic terrorist government off this planet.
You know what's especially ironic? Those are the exact same words our terrorist enemies are saying.
Exactly the same.
This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on November 12, 2001 at 06:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
...and I'm very sorry that the 15 or 20 million "innocent" people in Afghanistan (who significantly outnumber the Taliban) have not gotten rid of such a horrid regime.
What would you like them to revolt with? Sticks and stones, against machine guns and tanks?
quote:
Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Funny Kuru that you have no doubt in your mind that the Taliban are at fault. Automatically blame whoever that suits your best interests. Of course you would. You'd seem too foolish to have no idea who did it. So automatically point in the Middle East direction. What else is new. Go back to McVeigh. There is shit all evidence that the Taliban/bin Laden have anything to do with this. All this talk and American propaganda makes it easier for families of victims to cope with the problem. If the US gov didn't bullshit all this, the families/friends of the victims would be very uneasy with the government being totally in the dark about why they were hit. Did it ever occur to you that MAYBE, just MAYBE, there is a slight chance that many things your fucked up government claims MIGHT be untrue and modified from the original truth?Your way of thinking will bring many more of your friends and family trouble in the future..
Personal attack is not the way to make a point or prove your argument.
I've been reading your posts on this subject, and most of them appear to be nothing more than the ramblings of someone who is bitter about the United States involvement in world affairs, with little or no evidence to back them up. You're very quick to shoot down anyone who supports the US, but I have yet to see you provide any valid reasons for your stated belief that the US is the only party at fault in world politics, when to the best of my knowledge the US has been doing its best to be a positive influence in the world, while maintaining its national interests as any nation should.
I'm not making a personal attack on your or your beliefs, as I'm sure you have valid reasons behind them. However it would be nice to know what they are, and not have you automatically call anything we say foolish, or blindly patriotic, or anything like that, as I'm sure kuru, myself and others all have equally valid reasons for our beliefs.
------------------
Old farts never die, they just get blown away.
Oh, and Kuru:
quote:
KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Freshly shaven men rubbed their faces, celebrating their new freedom from Taliban rules. An old man danced in the street, holding a small tape recorder blaring music. The Taliban - who had banned music, ordered men to wear beards and ruled Afghanistan with a harsh brand of Islamic law - were gone from Afghanistan's capital.
Sounds like you were right about those "innocent" Afghans after all.
This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on November 13, 2001 at 02:34 AM
It must be nice to always be right, to be able to look down at everybody else because they're not as good as you, and to sit around berating people who don't share your opinion.
Maybe you could ask the Taliban how nice that is.
THIS IS A WAR, kiddo. People are going to die, and some of them are going to be civillians. You care so much about Afghanis, but what about all the Americans who died? Hmm? Do they not matter to you because it's politically correct to hate and bash America?
Since all you care about is Afghani civillians who are still in Afghanistan, why don't you move there and personally take care of them?
I'll pay for your plane ticket. One way.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
And you're sliding the conversation away from the intended point. I'm not asking you to be "cuddly to Afghanistan" or anything like that. I'm not trying to shove an "opinion" down anyone's throat. And the reason I'm not moving there "[to] personally take care of them" is that I'm not the American government, with billions and billions of dollars to do the job successfully.
My "berating" attitude is in direct reaction to this:
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
It's a hard thing to say, but now is not the time for dropping food. Now is the time for dropping bombs.
Followed by the absurdity of statements like:
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
If I lived in Afghanistan, I'd have been a refugee the minute I was old enough to crawl across the border.
and not to mention:
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
...and I'm very sorry that the 15 or 20 million "innocent" people in Afghanistan (who significantly outnumber the Taliban) have not gotten rid of such a horrid regime.
et cetera, ad nauseum.
So, it's not that I think I'm high and mighty...it's just that you have such a stunningly poor view of this entire situation, and are exemplifying the reckless, gung-ho American attitude that makes the rest of the world look down upon my country.
I am sick of hearing Europeans (the most vocal of our critics, it seems) raise legitimate concerns about boorish, careless American people, and I am fucking sick of Americans who think they are somehow entitled to justify the loss of life when it suits their needs.
And yeah, dude...I don't care about the Americans who died. That's it. You pegged me.
Anyway, don't even sweat the plane ticket. Save your money and buy yourself a fucking clue.
Peace out.
Until you have some sort of logical reason that we should take care of Afghanistan's every need, I've got nothing else to say to you.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
You have yet to provide any sound, logical reason whatsoever that it should be the job of the American government (read: the American taxpayers) to foot the bill for all the food, shelter and medicine that every person living in Afghanistan needs.Until you have some sort of logical reason that we should take care of Afghanistan's every need, I've got nothing else to say to you.
I come how to a heated house, with computers, Television, plenty of food, family. They don't have decent homes, alot of them, in the more remote villiages don't have homes at all. They don't have enough money for anything convienient as radio, or, say, enough food to feed their family the way they should. And the woman aren't allowed to work, so no food for the widows. I live in a city where crime is increadably low. They're government inacts crimes on all of them every second of every day. They live in a desert, so if they don't have water they have little chance of finding it elsewhere, thus when we bomb "Strategic infrastructure targets" like water pumps, we're starving many many people. Fuck man, I shit in better water then most of these people get after we're done.
In other words, I have excess, they're in need, it doesn't get much more logical then that.
------------------
~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
However, that you are better off does not obligate you in any way to give up the things you have in order to give them to someone else.
The concept is known as 'communism', and it fails miserably. There will always be those who are better off, and those who are worse off. That does not mean that the 'better off' are required to take care of the 'worse off.'
You can yell and scream and cry that I'm harsh and unfair, or you can be honest and admit that I'm right.
It's very kind and altruistic to give the things you have excess of to someone who may need them, but it is not your responsibility to do so. It's not your responsibility or obligation to give a panhandler a dollar, or to turn over your paycheck to the government so it can be given to someone who doesn't work.
Charity is given out of kindness, it's not a debt owed.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
You have yet to provide any sound, logical reason whatsoever that it should be the job of the American government (read: the American taxpayers) to foot the bill for all the food, shelter and medicine that every person living in Afghanistan needs.
Ok, how about this one. The American government (i.e., the American tax payers) are not being asked to feed these people. They are being asked to pay to kill these people. The government is spending about 躔 million to ũ billion of our dollars a month (no one can really give an exact number just yet) to bomb and kill the Taliban. That is money out of your pockets. That is money out of my pockets. And they have yet to provide a logical reason why. Oh, I know the reason behind our anger and our need to respond. But they haven't provided a logical reason why we have to do it the way they are currently doing. I've heard many logical arguments for different responses (most of them militaristic, but all more effective at attacking terrorism, not just a bunch of people in Afgahnastan(sp?)).
Ok, then how about this one: we aren't asking the American tax payers to pay one extra cent to feed these people. The food has already been donated. The clothing, food, water, etc have already been donated to this cause. The UN has reasources ear marked for this, long before September 11th. We are just asking to be allowed across the border. Since the Northern Alliance (they are a complete other thread, but I digress) controls most of the north, wouldn't it seem logical that the Red Cross and UN be allowed in to the north to distribute these needed supplies? Gee, I can't think of a logical reason why not. Can you?
------------------
10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
30 GOTO 10
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Seems like the Northern alliance is doing most the foot work anyway, so whats the beef? We spend all that money on bombs anyway, now we're just using them.
/me begins hypontic chant.
USA! USA! USA!
Four Legs Good! Two Legs Bad!
All Your Base Are Belong To Us!
Seriously folks, would you rather we sit idley by? If so...is it just becasue 'they' are spending 'your' money?
------------------
quote:
Originally posted by RenegadeSnark:
If you have a problem with the average IQ around here, don't do things to lower it.
I'm sick and fuckingtired of the 'damned if we do, damned if we don't' bullshit. You know what I saw of the food lifts to Afghanistan? Ingrateful people pouring the food on the ground and telling reporters in broken English or through translators "I fed it to the DONKEY."
FIRST: Defeat OBLT and Al Qaeda.
SECOND: Reconstruction of Afghanistan.
The Allies did not win WWII by feeding the enemies, and yes, sometimes the civillians suffered because of it, but after the war, who was it that went in and rebuilt Germany and Japan?
HINT HINT.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
------------------
A witty saying proves nothing.
Voltaire
*NEWSFLASH*
Surprise surprise, other people have opinions too and they usually don't like you shoving your opinion down their throats and ignoring theirs.
*NEWSFLASH*
------------------
Idiocy
Never Underestimate the Power of Stupid People in Large Groups.
You can't compare WWII to this. WWII was a bunch of first world countries at war, with have of them trying to to take over the world, the other have trying to stop them. This is the US, and big, big, big first world country vs. a very, very, very poor third world country.
I WWII, the civilians who suffered the most were the French and then the English. In both cases we (the good guys) tried very hard to feed them. Even when we invaded Germany we didn't cause this much disruption. Fight those that are guilty of horrible crimes against the US and humanity in general, and try as hard as possible not to hurt those you are supposedly trying to save. The entire reason we are bitching and complaining in this thread is that there are already reasources and people ready to help those in need, but we aren't letting them through. That is what we are complaining about.
------------------
10 PRINT "HOME"
20 PRINT "SWEET"
30 GOTO 10
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
Ya, I tried to answer your request for a logical reason. Guess you just don't like being shown to be wrong.You can't compare WWII to this. WWII was a bunch of first world countries at war, with have of them trying to to take over the world, the other have trying to stop them. This is the US, and big, big, big first world country vs. a very, very, very poor third world country.
I WWII, the civilians who suffered the most were the French and then the English. In both cases we (the good guys) tried very hard to feed them. Even when we invaded Germany we didn't cause this much disruption. Fight those that are guilty of horrible crimes against the US and humanity in general, and try as hard as possible not to hurt those you are supposedly trying to save. The entire reason we are bitching and complaining in this thread is that there are already reasources and people ready to help those in need, but we aren't letting them through. That is what we are complaining about.
riiiigh... the day and night bombings of Germany were no disruption at all, nope, not even the firebombings. You need to take the rose coloured glasses off.
Yet another self-righteous he-said-she-said bitching thread....
Jeez guys, one would think you would have grown out of that shit by now...
<edit>
Oh, and by the way kuru, the terrorists did not attack the WTC because it was in America.
They attacked it because it contained citizens of multiple countries(England, Russia, Canada, et cetera)
We all lost someone or something in this attack, not just America...
Whiskey, don't waste your time trying to convert kuru.
I am thinking that kuru and CK both have their heads up their asses, and really can't(or don't want to) see the shit that they are spouting....
</edit>
This message has been edited by Dysorderia on November 14, 2001 at 01:31 PM
quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
You can't compare WWII to this. WWII was a bunch of first world countries at war, with have of them trying to to take over the world, the other have trying to stop them. This is the US, and big, big, big first world country vs. a very, very, very poor third world country.
... a third world country that has decided that rather than feed its own people, they are going to fund terrorism and acquire biological, chemical, and possibly even nuclear weapons with the intent of destroying the US and taking over a significant part of the world under Islamic rule.
The fact that they are a third world country is irrelevant. We don't need to make our enemies any better at killing us. FIRST we destroy the Taliban, THEN we can focus on the humanitarian issues.
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
The Allies did not win WWII by feeding the enemies...
No, because the enemy civilians supported the war, for the most part. No so with (most of) the Afghanis...considering they're being killed by their own government too. Would we have begrudged the Jews food in WWII?
------------------
~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
1.) How do we tell the difference between those '(most of)' the Afghanis who don't support the Taliban and the ones who do on the battlefield? Will they be wearing signs?
2.) Are you really suggesting that fighting the Axis Powers to liberate Europe and stop the concentration camps from operating was the wrong thing to do? Please tell me you're not serious. Eleven million people were slaughtered like animals, their gold teeth or silver fillings stolen by SS officers. Germany was on a mission to conquer the world (as Al Qaeda claims to be), and you just said that fighting WWI and WWII was the wrong thing to do.
Ok, I lied. Third question.
3.) Is it hard to breathe with your heads that far up your asses?
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
What we failed to take into account in Vietnam is that we weren't fighting Communism -- after all, Ho Chi Minh and the likes were only using communism as an instrument through which they could obtain a stable nationalist government -- they would have just as soon used Democracy if it had been as feasible at the time. At any rate, I digress...
We need to quit with so much dedication to troop placement and start sending in cadres of UN folks -- educators, city planners -- that place needs to be modernized, and if they know we're responsible, they just might stop looking at us as imperialist devils.
I know there are a lot of X factors involved, but it's safe to say that after we off Osama, none of them are realistically neutralizable using military force.
The most important thing though (that we should have learned in 'Nam) is that they're nationalists. We need to be in and out. The VC (Cong) were really just a bunch of nationalists too -- they didn't want Americans in their country! And frankly, it's never really been our business there, just as it isn't in Afghanistan. We need to do a little realigning, and then get the hell out...lord knows that if we stay, and start sending over American business emissaries, we're going to end up with the entirety of that country being some sort of colony of the United States, and then when the remaining nationalists try to take over, we'll have another Cuba.
It's all about the in and the out.
This message has been edited by syf on November 15, 2001 at 08:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
Two questions.1.) How do we tell the difference between those '(most of)' the Afghanis who don't support the Taliban and the ones who do on the battlefield? Will they be wearing signs?
Well hey, how do we tell the difference between those '(most of)' the law-abiding citizens of the US and ones who'll be breaking the laws? Gee, let's just bomb the fuck outta everyone and hope there's a few bad people mixed in the carnage!
quote:
2.) Are you really suggesting that fighting the Axis Powers to liberate Europe and stop the concentration camps from operating was the wrong thing to do? Please tell me you're not serious. Eleven million people were slaughtered like animals, their gold teeth or silver fillings stolen by SS officers. Germany was on a mission to conquer the world (as Al Qaeda claims to be), and you just said that fighting WWI and WWII was the wrong thing to do.
Very nice rhetoric. All heartwrenching and everything...only its completely off. The point is that the ends were just. The means...that's questionable. Very.
quote:
Ok, I lied. Third question.3.) Is it hard to breathe with your heads that far up your asses?
Ooh, a zinger! How much brainpower did that one take?
quote:
sHuoReNviOLiN said:
Well hey, how do we tell the difference between those '(most of)' the law-abiding citizens of the US and ones who'll be breaking the laws?(emphasis mine)
I don't have to. The Constitution, which is the basis for the rule of law in the United States of America expressly prohibits prior restraint and assumes innocence of an American citizen over guilt. As the foremost governing document of this country, it is both unnecessary and illegal for me to punish anyone American for an action they have not done, whether I think they might in the future or not. I cannot, nor can the law, go and shoot someone right now claiming that 'He might be the next Jeffrey Dahmer.' Those are the rules laid out by our governing document.
Second, the Constitution does not apply here. The applicable rules are laid out in the Geneva Convetions which have determined the rules of engagement and rules of conducting warfare. I don't profess to be an expert on the Geneva Conventions, however, I do know that they do not expressly prohibit civilian casualties, as it is understood that collateral damage is part of any and all wars. Further, the United States goes above and beyond, often putting our own soldiers at risk to avoid unnecessary collateral damage. Instances such as My Lai are regrettable and unfortunate, and we strive to never repeat those actions. What I cannot do is condemn or blame a soldier on the front lines who shoots someone because he believes them to be an enemy soldier who will kill him. Hesitation would likely mean the end of his own life. It's tragic if the person was a non-combatant, though it is necessary to remember that this is war. War is disgusting, nasty, brutal, and cruel. It's also sometimes necessary, because diplomatic efforts have failed entirely. This is the case with Afghanistan.
quote:
Very nice rhetoric. All heartwrenching and everything...only its completely off. The point is that the ends were just. The means...that's questionable. Very.
The means were questionable? Germany was working to develop the atom bomb, and continuing to exterminate human beings as if they were nothing more than an infestation of cockroaches. The concentration camps pumped out 11 million dead bodies, bodies of people who had never been accused or convicted of any wrongdoing. People were slaughtered en masse, sometimes with SS officers forcing them to lie on the ground, three heads stacked on top of each other, so that they wouldn't have to waste bullets. Sometimes the ends justify the means. The only tragedy with Nazi Germany is that it wasn't stopped before those 11 million people perished.
Japan's kamikaze attacks took a toll on the United States war effort, after four years of active fightinig, that could've spelled the end for the American forces. The islands were a meatgrinder, and a last ditch decision was made to drop a couple of atomic bombs in August 1945 to end the war. Great consideration was likely paid to the number of relative casualties: that is, the number of people who would die in the bombed zones versus the number of people who would die if the war continued. Harry Truman was put in the very unfortunate situation of having to choose between bad and awful, and it's my assertation that he chose correctly. Bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a drastic move, and was intended to be one. The desired result was met, and Japan surrendered unconditionally post haste. Nobody knows how many lives were saved because of those two bombs; however, war strategy experts estimate that the number ranges from 100,000 to 150,000 American lives. That's a lot of telegrams beginning 'The Defense Department regrets to inform you.....' that would never have to be sent. We have no idea how many Japanese lives were spared by the decision, although I'd imagine it's a considerable number, as those bombs prevented us from ever having to mount a full on ground war on Japan. Once again, sometimes the ends justify the means.
The ends did justify the means.
I suggest you read Sun Tzu The Art of War. Pay close attention as you read. Tzu discusses war not as something that anyone wants to ever find himself in. He also explains why it's necessary, should you find yourself in a war, to fight to WIN. If we learned anything from Viet Nam and Korea, it had better have been that half-hearted attempts at police action succeed at nothing more than raising the American casualty rate.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
If we learned anything from Viet Nam and Korea, it had better have been that half-hearted attempts at police action succeed at nothing more than raising the American casualty rate.
Amen.
In Afghanistan a small faction holds the people HOSTAGE, the faction is rascist, and sexist, but they are not a political party that has brainwashed the entire population of Afghanistan.
Al Qaeda is a terrorist group that is anti-western culture, whereas the Nazis used a diferent route to exert their beliefs and used the people, Hitler simply wanted to rule the world.
If there are people being oppressed like the jews now, it's the very civilians of Afghanistan, and the Taliban isn't the only people opressing them. WE ARE. By blocking they're food and bombing they're infrastructure.
------------------
~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
This message has been edited by DeadAnztac on November 16, 2001 at 01:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DeadAnztac:
If there are people being oppressed like the jews now, it's the very civilians of Afghanistan, and the Taliban isn't the only people opressing them. WE ARE. By blocking they're food and bombing they're infrastructure.
You seem to think that somehow, in our attempts to protect american citizens by destroying threats like all-queerdudes we are directly responsible for the starving millions of the world. Well by spending your money on yourself to buy clothes, books, education, food, etc., you are directly responsible for the starving people around the world as well. You seem to think that human beings have an obligation to give up some of their wealth to help those less fortunate. This is not the way it works. People who have much, if they so desire can give to the poor, but when they are threatened, giving to the poor does not take priority over protecting their interests.
Lets just look at this rationally: millions of people in afganistan would die each year were it not for millions that the United States and other countries pour into aid in the form of food. Afghanistan does not have the resources within its borders to support its own population. We send them food, and now because people in that nation attacked us, we sent our military to destroy the threat. A temporary side effect is that it was less safe for aid shipments, so we airdropped some food, millions of rations. Each ration is capable of sustaining one person for a day, and they were being dropped the entire time that bombs were dropped. When northern alliance moved in on Kabul, we slowed our bombing runs, and aid shipments resumed.
As you can see by looking at this record, we made every effort to have our military operation not stop the flow of food to the hungry in this dirt poor country. The same spirit of caring has been applied to this military campaign that is shared by myself and the many Americans who have taken the time to donate blood, money or food to victims around the world.
------------------
Old farts never die, they just get blown away.
And did Al-Qaeda really say that they're going to/wants to conquer the whole world? I haven't heard that one before. What the hell are they gonna do it with?? I think that's more American propaganda. Look at these "facilities where weapons of mass destruction are being manufactured" in Afghanistan that the US bombed. All mud and brick houses, no steel or iron or anything like that. Where the FORK are they going to get supplies for weapons of mass destruction? Do they put their own country into more debt and poorness by trying to procure some heavy-duty weapons? They're still human, and they can't be THAT stupid. I'm sure they'd rather get themselves a hot meal before trying to buy weapons to kill Americans that are only 23091936738 kms away from their country.
This is gonna be like Vietnam, in the sense that they are not wanted in this foreign country and they are bombing without justified reason and all they are hurting is the civilians. The "bad-guys" are prepared to die anyway. So what is this accomplishing? You get to see what mud houses look like after they're bombed by these 23023947 pound American bombs. Yay. Did you get bin Laden? Nope. Are you going to? Nope..well, not alive anyway, he's too smart for that.
Did bin Laden say in some interview that he's preparing America's total destruction or somethin like that? That's kinda scary, because if he REALLY wanted to, he could.
Like I said many times before, one side has to stop attacking the other side for anything to be accomplished. Attack them, they'll attack u back, and the cycle will continue for a long time. Break the cycle, and you will get somewhere. They attacked you "first" on Sept.11 only because Americans moved off their country and put themselves where they aren't wanted (by some people, if not all anyway).
I'm tired, going to bed now, bbl.
------------------
Keep really low expectations, that way everything is a bonus. -- TheTaxMan
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
...as tragic as the collateral damage is, I'm willing to accept it.
Those...are the words of Timothy McVeigh, upon being questioned as to what he thought of the children he killed in the Oklahoma City bombing. And that we would use them now...that absolutely sickens me.
quote:
Originally posted by sHuoReNviOLiN:
Those...are the words of Timothy McVeigh, upon being questioned as to what he thought of the children he killed in the Oklahoma City bombing. And that we would use them now...that absolutely sickens me.
And if you're trying to compare the Oklahoma City Bombing to what happened in New York...YOU'RE FUCKING NUTTY! Last time I checked, 5,000 of Tim McVeigh's close friends and relatives weren't killed. We are acting in retaliation. Comparing McVeigh to Bin Laden, now that's OK. But comparing our government or us to McVeigh? You're loopy.
kuru is the shiznit
------------------
~Anztac [ Pertinaciously disconsolate ]
quote:
Originally posted by syf:
Last time I checked, 5,000 of Tim McVeigh's close friends and relatives weren't killed.
Nobody lost 5000 close friends and relatives in the WTC. Nobody -has- that many close friends and relatives.
And I believe McVeigh's "justification" is all of the US's wrongdoings in the past...which sum up to rather a lot more than 5000 lives. All of which were close friends and relatives to -someone-. Does that justify the "collateral damage"? Didn't think so.
quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
They have made one thing perfectly clear: The Islamist fundamentalist army will never stop attacking and killing 'infidels' (people who live in secular, western societies) until either all of the Islamists or all of the 'infidels' are dead.
Hmm...I hadn't heard that...do you happen to have any sources?
quote:
We choose to fight, as America always has, to remain a living example of freedom. (and etc.)
I think it's not the fighting that's being questioned...it's the holding back of food which could be used to prevent the impending famine in Afghanistan. And back to the comments about feeding the enemy...do you really think the Taliban are starving? They've been bleeding their people dry for years...they're bellies are full, they're not gonna collapse from hunger anytime soon. The people, that's another story.
Taliban/OBL/al Qaeda attacked us. They murdered five THOUSAND people on sovereign American soil in an act of war. It was not the first time they attacked us, and it may not even be the last. They have made one thing perfectly clear: The Islamist fundamentalist army will never stop attacking and killing 'infidels' (people who live in secular, western societies) until either all of the Islamists or all of the 'infidels' are dead.
We, the United States, had a choice to make after 11 Sept. We could sit around and be a target because we're too humanitarian to attack a terrorist army that uses civilians as a human shield so that it can continue in it's war against secular life, or we could fight back, strike at them, and let them know that America is no target.
We choose to fight, as America always has, to remain a living example of freedom. We go out of our way to avoid killing civilians, and our own troops take higher risks to avoid unnecessary collateral damage. War is an ugly situation, and when we find it necessary for our very survival to fight, we do so in the least awful manner we possibly can.
Please understand that I feel for the plight of oppressed Afghanis, I understand the situation. The thing that has been confused here is the purpose of this war. We're not fighting this war for the sole purpose of liberating Afghani civilians; we are fighting because Taliban/OBL/al Qaeda have attacked the United States, repeatedly. We are fighting because they will never stop attacking the United States. We are not fighting because we want to control the internal actions of Afghanistan, or because we want to be involved in their civil war.
We're fighting for our lives, and at this point, as tragic as the collateral damage is, I'm willing to accept it.
------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost