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Have a nice day, because monkeys don't.
-< PersonGuy >

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

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Ah screw it.
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ICEGAMING.COM

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...when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

quote:

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Originally posted by MattimeoZ80:
hehe, better watch out for the candians and their battle tanks.

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we'd have to watch out for joeSmith flying over dropping rocks and bags of flour and shit. Damn canadians......

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Decaffinated coffee is like unleaded fuel.

Also, I don't see why we're spying on them anyways in peacetime. Whats the point?

...dog eaters

BTW, for the non-worldly-aware, whats going on in china??

Two Chinese ripoffs of the MiG 25 intercepted an American electronic surveillance plane (EP3) that was flying over international waters. China just loves to rattle its sabre, and this time one of the jets collided with the EP3. The EP3 was forced to land, unauthorized, at a Chinese airstrip on some island (Hainan?). The Chinese fighter was lost at sea; I don't believe the pilot has been found.

Now, of course, the Chinese are holding our EP3 and its 25-man crew. All the electronics gear in the EP3 should have been dismantled, neutralized, self-destructed (whatever) before landing, but we have no solid data on the condition of the plane or the crew.

I highly recommend you glance through the thread I linked above.

This message has been edited by Vigilante on April 04, 2001 at 03:57 AM

(Oh yeah, a prehaps they should let some anger out over how the US 'accidently' blew up the Chinese Embasy - sp? -)

quote:

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Originally posted by MattimeoZ80:
hehe, better watch out for the candians and their battle tanks

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TankS?!? HA! That's funny...tanks...no, no. We'll be rollin' into Vermont with A tank...but tanks? Oh that's classic...

This message has been edited by Vulu on April 04, 2001 at 08:22 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by kixzor2:
Yay the Chinese.

I say trash the plane, send all the cool spy parts to Taiwan to get replicated

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See, the funny thing about that is that China and Taiwan are not doing well right now. The US is considering selling military supplies to Taiwan becase ever since (1996?) the british had to give Taiwan back, China has been threatening to invade and waste them. China is jealous that their Communism, once again, could not bring the economic power that Taiwan is enjoying. Taiwan is our ally, and in months will probably have that technology anyways.

If we get into a conflict with China, it will be on Taiwanese soil, defending them, as they are an ally. I don't like to insult a pretty lady, but you need to get your facts straight before you open your piehole. Thank you.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Assuming the reports are valid, and the incident did occur over international waters, then China is completely at fault. I can't imagine they'll have much support on this issue.

quote:

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Two Chinese ripoffs of the MiG 25 intercepted an American electronic surveillance plane (EP3) that was flying over international waters.

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The F-8 is not a ripoff of the Mig-25. It is basically an expanded Mig-21 (but with 2 engines).

Check out this tidbit from the FAS:

"The J-8 and J-8II aircraft are trouble-prone aircraft with a poor weapon suite and an inefficient engine. At best, the J-8-II can be compared with an early model (1960s) US F-4 Phantom. In fact, after twenty-six years the J-8-II is still in the development stage, has resulted in only about 100 fighters deployed, and meets none of the requirements of the PLAN. "

That's funny.

quote:

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All the electronics gear in the EP3 should have been dismantled, neutralized, self-destructed (whatever) before landing, but we have no solid data on the condition of the plane or the crew.

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Sorry, wrong again.

quote:

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(Reuters) - The crew of a U.S. spy plane that landed in China destroyed all the sensitive reconnaissance data aboard before the aircraft was taken over by the Chinese military, defense officials said on Wednesday.

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quote:

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(Reuters) - Chinese officials permitted the visit two days after the U.S. EP-3 surveillance aircraft made an emergency landing on the island of Hainan following a collision with a Chinese fighter jet. All 24 crew members were reported to be in good health.

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As for data on crew and plane, that information is also just coming out. Forgive Vigilante for being a little behind.

Anyway, China is blaming the Pilot of the EP3 of veering quickly into the Chinese jet. That is a laughable concept, and everybody knows it. The only way that is possible is if the F-8 was sitting under their wing, and asleep at the wheel. How bad of a pilot do you have to be to run into the front of a barge that big? Don't they go through training?

As for the US plane spying, they were 80 miles off shore watching emails, fax transmissions, phone calls, TV, and whatever electronics were possible to watch. The US keeps pretty good tabs on most of the world, and probably even spies on places like Britian and Canada. It's not that big of a deal. This was a routine mission, and as per usual, the Chinese jets came out to intercept and escort. Over the past few (weeks?), the Chinese pilots have become more daring and eratic, and it all culminated the other day. (Just adding a little info for those to lazy or busy to look it up).

I don't really want to get into a war with China. It'd be a high casualty war, and I don't really know what our battle plan would be. We don't have any reason to attack them right now. We don't have any goal with them. About the only thing we could try to do is defend Taiwan from China.

On the plus side, it would mean another war off of American soil. On the minus side, it's a nasty situation and my brother turns 18 in August. Besides, Americans aren't smart enough to tell the difference between Chinese people, Taiwanese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Laotion, Indonesian, and Malaysian people. So, what would happen is widespread domestic mistrust and hatred of all Asians. That's not cool.

However, if there was a war and Chinese battleships started showing up off the California coast, they'd be a pushover once they got past the military. However, I know they wouldn't bother coming into Arizona, seeing as how we're all packing here, and it wouldn't be worth their time... Aside from passing out from the heat and those heavy uniforms. Thank you, 2nd Amendment

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god has a HARD ON for marines - Full Metal Jacket

quote:

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Originally posted by Sithiee:
isnt a surveilance craft too large to veer quickly? i mean jeez, what about momentum and shit?

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Exactly. That plane would fly like a pig. On top of the fact that its a large plane on its own, it also (most likely) has shitloads of paresetic drag added due to the various antennas and other electronic devices existing on the fuselage and wings of the plane. God, the fact that the pilot was able to land that plane at all is fucking amazing.

Now if you'll excuse me...

*resumes loading his bags of rocks and flour*

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

I think that's the point, guys... how in the hell does an EP3 (not EC3?) veer into a fighter/interceptor? He'd have to be flying well within any sort of safe ranges for that to even be feasible.

My theory is that the fighter was flying very... VERY close, and the pilot of the EP3 wanted to scare the guy off a bit, and the fighter pilot didn't react, or was just a bit too close. Nobody wanted to kill anybody. Perhaps some stupidity happened, yes, but there's more than one group to blame on that one.

All I know is that this isn't real cool, but it has been cooling down a bit. It was talk of all-out war the other day, and now it's just about getting our "detainees" home and making sure our intelligence is uncompromised.

BTW: The Brits are totally on our side. Tony Blair and Bush have a semi-public open line going. Thank goodness. Funny that they were the bad guys just 200 years ago. Makes you wonder how much good our little island is gonna do for the next 100 years.

quote:

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As for data on crew and plane, that information is also just coming out. Forgive Vigilante for being a little behind.

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True, true. I just saw "April 4th" on that post, and didn't pay attention to the time...

This one's way better:

• < Jane's story on the collision >
  
• < Jane's info on the P3B/C "Iron Clad" maritime surveillance aircraft > (similar to the Aries II long range electronic surveillance arcraft that is being detained in China)
  
• < Jane's info on the Chinese J-8 fighter aircraft > (including info on the F-8 varient which was trailing the EP-3)
  
• < Taipei Times article on Taiwan's explaination of the incident > (as interpreted from their own radar images and radio surveillance)
  
• < Current Chinese propaganda > being released by the official news agencies
  
• < Messageboard in China hosted by the People's Daily > (includes many posts from outside of China because it was linked to in a cnn.com article; also note that this board is actively censored, as evident from several frustrated posts by Americans explaining how their posts attempting to explain the situation have been deleted)
  

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Edit: added bullets

This message has been edited by ASCIIMan on April 05, 2001 at 12:39 AM

people have forgotten that the chinese are not anything like americans. they're in the school of sun tzu, as in the art of war.

bush *has* to take a hard line with china, because china has a habit of testing the leaders of countries they see as competitors.

their attitude right now is that the united states has to kiss there ass and apologize, and maybe, just maybe, they'll send back our soldiers.

the united states has nothing whatsoever to apologize FOR here, a chinese jet clipped one of our planes in international airspace and damaged it. there's a strong possiblity that this jet clipped the american plane deliberately becase it *is* a reconnaissance plane, forcing it to land on foreign soil.

instead of the chinese then *respecting* this plane as sovereign american territory, albeit in distress, during a time of peace, they boarded the plane and are now holding the crew captive.

bush is behaving *very* diplomatically given the circumstances. it's not unreasonable for the united states to take the position that this is an unfortunate accident, we regret that it happened, we regret the loss of the chinese pilot, and we want our soldiers to come HOME.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

every god damn one of us (americans) owes it to those 24 men and women to do absolutely EVERYTHING in our power to get them back home safely.

they volunteer to stand up and lose their lives to fight for us and our causes, the very least we could do is be loyal to them.

the marines have a little saying. semper fidelis. always loyal. more americans need to learn what loyalty really is.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Interesting point, kuru. I definitely agree about China "testing" the US, though I don't understand why they can't realize the inevitable outcome of such an action. Changing leaders doesn't really change hard-line policy towards "captured" troops.

If they want it, I'm for giving it. So, you may understand why I prefer the Army's motto: Sine Pari (without equal).

China's military might doesn't compare to the US, and I'd be more than happy to sign up and show them why...should they decide to try anything bellicose.

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on April 05, 2001 at 05:24 PM

Now, don't take this as "I'm a punk and hate america" additude. I've had many, many, many friends and family members in the military, and about half had died for bad judgement by America. My uncle, must have been the coolest guy I ever knew... Didn't even get shipped off for Desert Storm, but has died because of it. A friend of mine, who helped me out when I was about to kill myself, was stabbed to death by an Iraqi soldier after being sent on a mission to take out some drug lord...

This is America. Politicans and military personel make decisions, not to help, but to look good. Not only that, but as they break it down to which two are the best, they have to decide which one CNN won't be as likely to make mass public knowledge as a "bad thing"... like when Clinton bombed Kuwait (I'm probably wrong...), afterwards a lot of papers were going on about how bad it was... if he didn't, but it was know he would have, they would have went on about how much good it would have brought.

So anyway... yeah, China should let the American soldiers go, but they should keep the plane. We don't need to be spying on anyone, let alone the country that supplies us with half of our stuff.

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Spydir Web - < http://netsyndrome.net/spydirweb/ >
Net Syndrome - < http://www.netsyndrome.net/ >

Sometimes you're the dog, sometimes you're the hydrant...

"I uhh.... think it is very uhh..... important.... uhhh... to get our uhh..... soldiers uh.... back as uh.... soon as possible"

say that out load really slowly and you'll get where im coming from. to me he just sounds like a cluless sissy, who should leave the military shit to his advisors

We don't need to Nuke China. Fuck you, syf0n. I hope you were trying to be funny.

And, I wouldn't be able to join a military. It's not in my blood. I would, however, fight against an enemy on my soil. Wouldn't be happy about it, but I like this place enough.

We spy on China because it's a theatre of operation, and we spy on everybody. We sort of have to. How do you think we figure out shit like catching 5 dudes that wanted to blow up the US Embassy in Rome? I know either American and/or Italian intelligence had quite a bit to do with that.

That is all. I'm going home. I wish the same for the 24 crew members.

If it's so amazing that dude could land the EP3, ever think that maybe it possibly caused the collision somehow? Pretend you're Chinese, and go read China's side of the story. You WILL see some major differences in the way stuff happened.

Your a fucking idiot.

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

quote:

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Originally posted by StanVanDam:
Why must the US spy on everybody?

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quote:

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Originally posted by StanVanDam in Missile defense thread:
US isn't exactly the best liked country in the world right now. They don't NEED this "defence" system.

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Why must you answer your own questions?

anyhow I know the world will one day get sick of the US - and there surely will be a great war that goes on. later on theyll get sick of england (probably) and then israel. i mean what the fuck, they shoot palestinians kids who throw stones on sight. how stupid is that.

it's common sense that it's a good idea that you know what your competitors are up to so that you don't get caught in a defenseless position when they finally try something. duh.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

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Originally posted by mqa:
i'd like to remind the people who blame the US because they were spying on china that china is the country that stole the US's nuclear designs last year.

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Although I'm not sure how much of this article is pure speculation, it raises some interesting issues: < Spy photos show Beijing set for underground test >