Topic: Is religion the cause of all wars?
started by: Tim
[This message has been edited by Tim (edited June 27, 2000).]
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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.
fascism was like their religion too?
most wars are over misunderstandings
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"When aiming three blocks away at a 4th story window from your apartment with a high powered air gun and scope. Always make sure there is not a walking patrol cop below your building."
quote:
Originally posted by syf0n:
How did religion cause World War I or World War II? Don't say Judaism, that wasn't really the reason we got involved in it, although some would argue otherwise...
That wasn't the reason WE got involved in WWII, but if you look at what started it that was religious based, as Hitler targeted Jews for persecution in his endeavor to create a master race.
As for war in general, no, they weren't all caused by religion. Many were cultural (albeit, a similar and sometimes coinciding cause), or as Observer said, over land or power.
but uh... thats my 2 cents
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"If it doesn't work, hit it with a hammer."
quote:
Originally posted by DrunkNigel:
When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor is when the United States got involved. The War had been going on in Europe for a good while before hand.
America was involved long before peral harbor plus navy knew they were comming that is why all 4 carriers stationed at the base left the day b4 on training opps! Just like the lucitaina in ww1 the american public need a reason to convince them to enter the war just doing it because it was right wasn't enuf the government and industry were involved already, like in giving guns and tanks to the allies thru canada getting ready to enter the war. America let japan bomb the harbor! The lucitainia was carring implements of war not passengers!
and religion is not related to all wars, for example, the american civil war, gulf war, ect
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Where is that tubby bitch??
[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 28, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 28, 2000).]
The holocaust was just another of the casualties of war and hatred and bigotry.
The real reasons for the war were the desire for power, land, and one man's megalomania.
Don't say that I'm being insensitive to the holocaust victims by saying that. If Hitler wanted to do ethnic cleansing, did he really need to invade the rest of Europe to 'cleanse' Germay?
Point: ALL wars originate in man's desire for another man's wealth. It's greed. For posessions or land or status - it's all greed. Religion or racial issues are just created by these people to gain support by the ignorant, bigoted masses.
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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.
Unless you call the KKK or other white power groups religious organizations. If you do, well, okay. Then WW II was based on religion.
who (far as i know) starts wars? guys
why go to war? many reasons including:
1. I need land on which to wave my dick around
2. I need resources to enhance my dick size
3. I want helen back because she's hot and...
4. Damn Jews have bigger dicks, gotta get rid of 'em.
5. I need Xerxes' gold to enhance my...
why not ask? i might appear weak and thus seem to have a smaller dick
why not negotiate? the fundemental joke of not enough blood for dick and brain to operate at the same time.
so what i can't understand is why the eunuchs didn't overtake the world. i guess they just didn't have the balls.
please note that this is mostly jest.
-Tony
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< w00t >.
To digress a little, that one big feud went on for a hundred years! When it finally ended (by marriage of people from each family) nobody even remembered why it started. It wasn't over religion. I think on a larger scale we fight wars over many things besides religion. Sometimes it's for land or power!
Anyway, no offence to whoever started it, but this thread is sucking a little bit...
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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.go.to/personguy >
quote:
Originally posted by Kolben:
The jews in Germany and the german people couldn't get along and severe tensions arised. That ment slaughter of the jews, which every other country didn't approve. Then hitler (he's name doesn't even deserve a capital letter) and the other countries (especially Russia) got angry at each other and the big war started and the (All) germans went fanatic and made up words as mehr lebensraum (more space for living). Really really sick!
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!! That is not what got the rest of the world involved! its was the german invasion of belgum that got england and her allies involved, then france was invaded and ger allises became involved!
then Hitler tryed to be cool and invaded russia who had a treaty with hitler so they got pissed off and strated to re-arm(later then the other countries) thats why the nazi armies got so far into russia! WW2 was not at all a religious war it was all politics in the end and the killing of jews was just like part of hitlers plan and an out put for hatred and bigitry toward jews that had been brooding for thousands of years in europe! you people(americans) really need to learn the histroy of w2! Contary to popular belife ww2 did not follow hitler kills jews(america joins war/saves day) japinese bomb peral harbor(umm yanks get pissed and kick ass)!
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Where is that tubby bitch??
[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 29, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 29, 2000).]
Just to put that right
quote:
Originally posted by Tim:
Most wars I Know of are caused by religion in some way
You don't really know much about war then. As has been already said, relgion is often used as a cover for war. With more "enlightened" people, various idealoligies (communism, fascism, democracy) is used instead.
quote:
Originally posted by XaSERaX:
but werent the Nazi's pro catholicism?
Nope. They had their own makey uppy religion based around the idea that the German were decended from a master race of people. It took ideas from Buddism, hinduism, Catholicism, the old germanic religions, and any other religion you care no name.
quote:
Originally posted by AnimalPrime:
the german invasion of belgum
It was Hitlers invasion of Poland that started WWII.
quote:
Originally posted by Zimtie
Eventually Hitler started a war against them
No. Hitler believed that England and France would never have the guts to declare war on him - espically after Chamberlains declaration of "Peace in our time".
Draco
[This message has been edited by Draco (edited June 30, 2000).]
Lot's of wars btw is about money. USA makes 2 countries pissed at each other, and sells weapons to the weakest country. Then Russia interferes and sells the other part weapons. And *puff* we have a war, and USA gets money. Then USA gets pissed at Russia for interfering. What USA shouldn't have done either and new "high council meetings" has to be hold. Afterwards we have a country in ruins with crying people everywhere. It was more fun in the old days where you only stabbed your enemy with your sword instead of throwing a bomb at him.
And about USA bitching other countries doing nuclear tests (France and Pakistan I think it was) is god damn wimpy. If USA can have nuclear weaps other countries can too. But in my oppinion no country should have weapons at all. There's really no use for 'em other than killing people....or digging holes
quote:
Originally posted by Kolben:
And about USA bitching other countries doing nuclear tests (France and Pakistan I think it was) is god damn wimpy. If USA can have nuclear weaps other countries can too.
(Before I say anything: I am not American)
First off, it is not just the US, it is alot of countrys (many of whom don't have, nor want nuclear weapons). The problem is that alot of the countries developing these weapons are not the most stable. India and Pakistan have had 3 wars, and there is and on going skirmish over Kashmir. What happens if one of their generals has his finger on the button, thinks one is invading the other and starts a nuclear exchange? the US, Russia, UK, China, France all have serious amounts of safegaurds to prevent accidents like that happening (of course with the distergration of the USSR, these may not work in pratice) The whole anti-nuclear weapon thing is so that dodgy people don't get their hands on world destroying weapons. france was detonating those nukes to remind every one that they are a nuclear power (and don't you forget it!)
Draco
Was Remember WW2? I dont think that was a religous war. Neither was WW1. Or Vietnam. or The Civil war. Or the revolutionary war. or the spanish american war. or the Iraq-USA war. or hey the war of 1812? the entire napoleonic era? Roman Empire? Egyptian expansion of the Nile. they fought a lot of wars. Jeez...that is a lot of wars.
Most wars are about conquest. Riches, spoils, land. Political ideologies. Very few wars are initially about religion.
Religion plays a part after the sides are drawn. If the two opposing forces have different religions, then that is a good point for the state to make. See we are we and they are they. Draws sides. Makes differences.
The best way to show a people who they are is to show then what they are not. This is what religion does.
this is a very very short sumation. >>
WW2 started as an extension os WWI. After the WWI the Germans wer sanctioned to the point of starvation. Wer not allowed to have any culture. Not allowed to have any pride. They were considered second class citizens.
Then the Communists starterd to get a hold on the country. Making the poor believe that life would be better as a communist. Many Germans HATED communism they saw to the East in Russia. Then as a retaliation to that idea the Socialists, National Socialists emerged(been brewing since late 1870's). Saying we can feed you. We will make national pride part of every day. We will make you feel like the German people matter. etc. Huge fights erupted in Germany while the Communists and Socialists battled fo the future of Germany. THe Republic was forced to sit and watch...make an occasionl arrest...until one day the Socialist party was victorious.
The Jews were used by hitler as a scapegoat. "see all of our problems? DOnt blame them on the govt. Blame it on the Jew. Look, while you starve, he has a store. while your children die, his child is at a doctor" It was a political tactic.
Gave the German people an enemy in their own country. To unleash their buildup of hate upon. And allowed the National Socialists to aquire massive wealth.
thats is the short of it.
BTW: the French were slaughtering Jews in WWI - it was not just a German offence. The English knew of every camp in Germany, but made no attempt to stop it.
<not my words>
"By the sword and the cross," he became master of Western Europe. Through his enlightened leadership the roots of learning and order were restored to Medieval Europe.
Charlemagne was determined to strengthen his realm and to bring order to Europe. In 772 he launched a 30-year military campaign to accomplish this objective. By 800 Charlemagne was the undisputed ruler of Western Europe. His vast realm encompassed what are now France, Switzerland, Belgium, and The Netherlands. It included half of present-day Italy and Germany, and parts of Austria and Spain.
They wanted nothing to do with England or the USA. Germany liked the english. It was the english that declared war on Germany when they entered Poland. hitler asked them not to. but then again hitler told Russia he was their friend and almost took Moscow - so he <probably>would have done the same to England as well.
im done now
But views vary. The Simon Weisenthal Centre announces the following:
[b]Q. When speaking about the "Holocaust," what time period are we referring to?
Answer: The "Holocaust" refers to the period from January 30, 1933, when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany, to May 8, 1945 (V-E Day), the end of the war in Europe.
Q. Did the Nazis plan to murder the Jews from the beginning of their regime?
Answer: This question is one of the most difficult to answer. While Hitler made several references to killing Jews, both in his early writings (Mein Kampf) and in various speeches during the 1930s, it is fairly certain that the Nazis had no operative plan for the systematic annihilation of the Jews before 1941. The decision on the systematic murder of the Jews was apparently made in the late winter or the early spring of 1941 in conjunction with the decision to invade the Soviet Union[b]
The url:
[url]http://164.109.158.193/resource/36qlist1.htm[url]
You'll notice that this is after Britain's declaration of war against Germany. (1939)
The REAL reason for the war was Hitler's invasion of Poland. England had a pact with Poland to protect them in case of invasion as the Polish were nervous about the Germans AND the Russians who were both eyeing their country. Russia agreed NOT to retaliate if Germany agreed to stop at Poland.
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"Sometimes I sits and thinks, but most times I justs sits." - Me.
[B] It was Hitlers invasion of Poland that started WWII.
opps did i say belgium sorry yall
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Where is that tubby bitch??
[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 30, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AnimalPrime (edited June 30, 2000).]
you all are not looking at this very correctly, you seem to forget that your looking at the war in hindsight. it wasnt untill much later in the war (like 1943 or somethin) that the holocaust became aware to the public. and ww2 was many things put together. Basically, hitler came to power and convince the germans that they were going to create a superior german race, composed of people only of arian descent. you seem to forget, although jews were the majority of those targeted, they also targeted gypsies, handicapped, etc. anyone not in good health with blond hair and blue eyes. and hitler wasnt the biggest force behind the holocaust. it was one of the guys working directly under him, i cant remember his name right now, but he was a lot worse than hitler. The reason hitler started invading europe was not because he wanted to cleanse the world, but because he felt germans were superior, and so they should be in charge. about americans knowing about pearl harbor, yes, they had an idea, i forget the exact specifics, but they had some sort of warning that there would be an attack from the japanese. about americans helping to win the war, you know we did. without american troops, germany would have won. i hate to be conceited and pretentious and whatnot, but the american troops were critical to the effort. considering that the allied army was basically just britain and a little from otehr countries, without US, allies would have been fucked. now im not saying that you should all start worshipping US or something, but give credit where credit is due.
finally, no, ww2 was not about religion. ww1 was a little bit, however a lot of wars were. namely the crusades, i mean come on, what was it, 4 crusades...a childrens crusade, all failed, and all quite bloody. there are a lot of religious wars, but most are over resources like has been said before.
p.s. i hope this makes sense, i was sort of ranting and spewing everything i learned in history last year, so i hope it makes sense.
Catholics have a big long creed, "We believe in one God, Father allmighty, maker of heaven and earth", etc. Most people belonging to an organized religion hold those beliefs above any actions they might do.
There have been relatively few wars that are outright religious wars, and even fewer in recent history.
Consider WW1, WW2, Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf. Why did the US get involved in each of those? There was some political agenda in every case. The US was supplying aid to both the Germans and the Allies before it got involved in WWI. Then Britain blockaded German ports, and Germany started sinking US ships. So we went in with the Allies. But how did the soldiers get motivated? Woodrow Wilson constructed his ideaological points. In order to fight, the soldiers had to believe that they were the good guys, and the easiest way to do that by accessing the soldiers' religious beliefs. In WW2, Hitler's army knew it was motivated by the knowledge that they were a superior race, and that everyone else was scum that should be gotten rid of. The Allies were motivated by the thought that the Germans had trounced on their rights, or those of the Jews, or any of a number of other beliefs. The US involvement in Vietnam was because of two clashing beliefs: Capitalism vs. Communism. Every soldier that was effective just KNEW that Communism was the root of all evil, that it stole people's liberties. They were protecting all that was right. The Gulf War was really about oil. The US didn't want Saddam controlling some of the best oil wells in the world. So, we went to war. Those soldiers needed an appeal to Human Rights as motivation to fight. They knew Iraq was the bad guy because they had gone and taken over a defenseless little country.
So what was the point of this little rant? Most wars are not fought over religion, but religion and strong religious-like beliefs play a major role in the motivations of the common soldiers.
Guderian was the brains behind the blitzkrieg through Poland in September of '39 and then into Belgium, Holland, and Luxembourg. As someone pointed out earlier it wasn't until the Germans hit the low countries that England and France became involved. Roosevelt wanted the US in to back England from the beginning but couldn't get Congress to agree. That's when lend/lease was put into effect. There's supposed to be proof that Roosevelt knew about Japan's attack before it happened; he just needed something for the country to rally around.
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quote:
Originally posted by Tattered:
Caseman's kewl, he sometimes makes good posts based on small observations.
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~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]
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Don't worry about the world ending today... It's already tomorrow in Australia. Unless you're in Australia... (then start worrying)
Some petty dispute and personal vendetta by some people is what started the hate. Religion, being as strong of an influence as it is, is just an easy way to get people to follow these pissed off folks. Say that following us is a good way to appease God and he'll reward you after your task is a good way to get people to follow you. You use the tools at your disposal.