Ikonboard » Printable Version of Topic » So who should be the next president?

Forum: The Classroom
Topic: So who should be the next president?
started by: ic0n0

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 20 2001,20:41

Should Gore run again? Or should bush get four more years? Or should nader run again? Or some one else i want the straight geek on this one

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 21, 2001 at 03:42 PM

Posted by smartsnake on Jan. 20 2001,20:45

Bush will most likly run agian wether he gets elected ro not most likly depends on how he does in his first teerm. I hope Gore wont run again. I think Mcain and/or Bradley should try again.

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"You never hear the bullet that hits you"

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 20 2001,20:47

what if mccain and bradley ran togather? insteed of that whole partisonship thing

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 21, 2001 at 03:47 PM

Posted by smartsnake on Jan. 20 2001,20:53

That would probley work and give them a better chance of getting past the primarys and possibly elected. I would like to see that happen.

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"You never hear the bullet that hits you"

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 20 2001,20:54

i'm so sick of this republican and democratic bull shit, the left needs to get a clue and the right needs to watch more porn.

Posted by smartsnake on Jan. 20 2001,21:03

HA HA HA!

Posted by kuru on Jan. 20 2001,21:18

watching some porn is a hell of a lot easier than getting a clue.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by fission on Jan. 20 2001,21:29

Haha, I think you Americans have more to worry about with your election system than who will be the next president.

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Tyler Mitchell

"Hello," he lied.
-- Don Carpenter, quoting a Hollywood agent

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 20 2001,21:42

quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
watching some porn is a hell of a lot easier than getting a clue.

Hehe... the story of my life!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by kuru on Jan. 20 2001,21:47

eh, not really. if you cut through all the media bullshit and jesse jackson and the lawyers... the system worked exactly the way it was supposed to.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by fission on Jan. 20 2001,21:52

quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
the system worked exactly the way it was supposed to

I was under the impression that it shouldn't take that long. Granted, in this case, the extreme delay was caused by the laywers you mentioned.

Maybe next time, Florida should print better ballots.

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Tyler Mitchell

"Hello," he lied.
-- Don Carpenter, quoting a Hollywood agent

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 20 2001,21:55

I must say tho i hate ultra-conservatives, but mild conservatives don't bug me so much and liberls(sp) don't bug me at all and i must say i fall in this catigory(sp) but the ultra-leftist leinist fucks bug me

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 21, 2001 at 04:56 PM

Posted by kuru on Jan. 20 2001,21:57

or the voters should learn how to fuckin read.

the delay was caused by a few thigns:
#1 the media: they really fucked the monkey by calling florida far too early in the game. (as in, before the polls closed)

#2 the margin: when it's less than 1\%, all the votes get recounted anyway. that's just how it is.

#3 al gore: if he hadn't called back and rescinded his concession and decided to 'stop at nothing', it woulda been recounted in a week.

#4 jesse jackson: that stupid fucker will protest anything. apparently even his illigitimate kid.

#5 the lawyers: bloodsucking leeches. nuff said.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 20 2001,22:17

Al gore got close it 350,000 more votes than g.w bush i'm not saying g.w isn't are rightfull president but i think our system is fucked up, it maybe less than 1\% of the total votes but you just basicly said there votes don't count, and (this is in response to your comment in what's wrong with canada)we don't realy vote for the president remember we vote for electors who vote for the president so we arn't realy a democracy are we.

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 21, 2001 at 05:18 PM

Posted by masher on Jan. 20 2001,23:05

quote:
we vote for electors who vote for the president so we arn't realy a democracy are we

and the electors can vote any way they want. They don't necessarily have to vote for their party...

although, if they didn't, they wouldn't be an elector for very long.

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"All is number" - Pythagoras

Posted by Sithiee on Jan. 21 2001,00:42

theres been 9 electors who have voted other than they were supposed to. they are chosen because they are very very unlikely to not vote for their party. and this election was shit. the entire thing was just a bunch of bull. niether gore nor bush were in the right as far as i can tell. the margin of error is too high. and how can anyone be scared more by someone like Jesse Jackson than by someone like Pat Roberts?...it doesnt matter that much. but no, gore shouldnt run again. hes made himself look bad with this whole thing. the democrats need someone as smart as gore, with the same values, but that isnt so scary looking, or mean.gore lost cause a lot of people thought George W. looked nice or whatever...sad, but true...

Posted by CatKnight on Jan. 21 2001,01:06

quote:
Originally posted by ic0n0:
...so we arn't realy a democracy are we.

whoever said we were? no one. we are a republic. didn't you learn that in 5th grade?

Posted by Rhydant on Jan. 21 2001,03:36

hrmm.... it says that the first message was edited by ic0n0 today (the 21th) at about 3 p.m.... hrmm....
bastard!

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Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. The thing I hate most is that I didn't have a better idea.

Posted by masher on Jan. 21 2001,03:42

answering your question, isn't it a bit early to be looking for the next president?

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"All is number" - Pythagoras

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 21 2001,08:23

quote:
so we arn't realy a democracy are we.[/B]

Everyones got it all backwards...
BECAUSE there are electors and we don't represent ourselves, it IS a democracy and ISN'T a republic.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by cr0bar on Jan. 21 2001,13:14

Excerpt from something all the Americans here should know:

". . .and to the Republic for which it stands. . ."

Posted by CatKnight on Jan. 21 2001,14:20

what are you talking about personguy? a democracy is where every single citizen participates in government. a republic is where all citizens have equal power to determine how the government should work. if the united states were a democracy then our overall productivity would be a lot less, because everyone would have to spend a lot of their time making decisions about the government. that's why we have career politicians.

Posted by Wolfguard on Jan. 21 2001,15:31

make things simple.

Elect me the next time around.

I will raid the patent office and release everything that the oil, power, and auto companys have been sitting on for the last 20 years.
I will demand that OPEC lowers the price/increases the production of oil and remind them that an answer of no will not be healthy and to ask Japan what i mean.
Nuke plants will start to be built again and the fussion project will get its funding.

That will be the first day.

Day 2 might just start with red phones and launch codes but that depends on my mood.

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Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

Posted by CatKnight on Jan. 21 2001,18:14

thank god for primary elections

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 21 2001,18:19

We have problems in our system no doubt, bush is being influinced by the religous right far to much i mean it;s one thing to be religous it's entirely another to force people to accept relgouis institutions. By Bush's own admition he would like religon to be part of our socity(sp) hello seperation of church and state!!!! It's for the benifit of the citiznes of our nation and for the relegous institutions themselves to be completly 100\% indipendant(sp).

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 22, 2001 at 01:21 PM

Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Jan. 21 2001,18:33

Is it me or does Bush seem very incompetant of doing anything. gore seemed like he had a million and one secret agendas.

Why are presidential campaigns such popularity contests. wouldnt it be better for someone to just come a long and actually start off by doing some action. start grabbin people by the balls (NOT FECKIN LITERALLY IT WAS METAPHOR I KNOW SOME GAY LAMO WANTS TO WRITE A FECKIN JOKE ABOUT THAT REMARK)

Man i hate politicians. thats the feckin circular argument about politics and science that i really hate persoanally. we do all this fuckin research into how to make the world better by thinking in the long term and all the politicians do is think cos they're only in power for 4 years they just use it for war or to get rid of some problem before the next election and then just leave it for the next person to deal with.

Hmm gone a little off topic i know but then again i always do, schizophrenia does that to ya

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Random giberish etc. etc.

Posted by Rhydant on Jan. 21 2001,22:33

quote:
Originally posted by Wolfguard:
Nuke plants will start to be built again and the fussion project will get its funding.
Day 2 might just start with red phones and launch codes but that depends on my mood.

youve got my vote.
something that i was thinking about the other day was Fussion. my science teacher said that once an atom gets heated to 5000 degrees Celcius is couldnt go back down. if we could produce just ONE of these atoms, it could flash-boil thousands of gallons of sea-water, which would turn to steam. the steam would rise and make the turbine spin, producting electricity. then wed have tons of powa. then that steam could be distilled for drinking water.

but i dont think i'd trust Wolfgaurd with 'the button'.

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Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. The thing I hate most is that I didn't have a better idea.
-edit, im dumb

This message has been edited by Rhydant on January 22, 2001 at 05:36 PM

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 22 2001,00:34

From Webster:

republic - a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and a governing according to law

democracy - a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation involving periodically free elections

Draw your own conclusions... but the key is RESIDES versus IS VESTED

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

This message has been edited by PersonGuy on January 22, 2001 at 07:35 PM

Posted by kuru on Jan. 22 2001,10:18

power in this country was never meant to be vested by the government in the citizens. it was meant to come FROM the citizens who permitted elected officials to carry out duties to serve them.

hence they're called civil SERVANTS. remember this statement, 'the government of the people, by the people, and for the people shall not perish from this earth'?

or the ever popular 'and to the republic for which it stands'

or even the constitution itself

'we the people of the united states, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and estabilsh this constitution for the united states of america.'

very plainly, it says the people formed the constitution and gave the government its power. we are a republic.

Posted by Wolfguard on Jan. 22 2001,10:51

quote:
Originally posted by Rhydant:
something that i was thinking about the other day was Fussion. my science teacher said that once an atom gets heated to 5000 degrees Celcius

Fusion is what happens in a star. You take Hydrogen and heat it up till it fuses together to make helium. The energy released during this process is greater than the energy needed to start the process. The waste heat from fusion would be used to drive turbines that drive generators.

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Leaving the trees was a bad idea.
< TeamWolfguard.com >

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 22 2001,14:26

quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
we are a republic.

Go back to English class (no cracks about my HORENDOUS English please) and learn how to congigate: is was are WERE

We WERE a republic, but things have changed alot.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by demonk on Jan. 22 2001,14:48

Right now we are neither a Republic nor a Democracy. We are a little of both. Both forms of government were created around the time of the acient Greeks. And I believe that the Romans were a Republic at first. We barrowed the best from both forms and combined them into what we have today. Granted, it wasn't a perfect marriage, but our founding fathers(there's another rant!) knew that they wouldn't be able to plan for everything, so they made it possible for us to change the way our government works. Thus, our country does tend to swing back and forth between being more of a Republic and being a Democracy. So, we live in neither a Republic, nor a Democracy.

Posted by whiskey@throttle on Jan. 22 2001,20:33

Besides, for all you "we're really a Republic" trolls, please note that you can't have a republic without some semblance of democracy to begin with.

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 22 2001,23:59

quote:
Originally posted by demonk:
We are a little of both.

I repeat:
democracy - a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY through a system of representation involving periodically free elections

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by Rhydant on Jan. 23 2001,01:56

ok personguy, chill man. chill.
personally, i think this country isnt a republic. not a democracy. but a SHIT HOLE! bush is running things now. pray. juat pray he doesnt have too itchy of a trigger finger.

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Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot. The thing I hate most is that I didn't have a better idea.

Posted by solid on Jan. 23 2001,03:49

hopefully this topic doesnt lead to conspiracy or theories of it...
we need a new topic like that! ... but it sounds kinda stupid anyways...
im gonna go now.. *everyone cheers*

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 23 2001,13:59

quote:
Originally posted by Rhydant:
ok personguy, chill man. chill.

Hehe... ok! I just don't know why people have to MAKE me bring Webster into it!

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by kuru on Jan. 24 2001,02:57

as long as they never fuck up the electoral system so that someone who wins races in only the five or six largest cities in the country is the 'winner take all' president, i'll be happy.

and leave webster alone, you dragging him everywhere pisses him off

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by demonk on Jan. 24 2001,04:41

Kuru, kuru, kuru... You've let yourself get brainwashed by all the pro-electoral system people. I say we switch to a popular vote and borrow something from Canada: media blackout the day of the election. That should solve a few problems.

Posted by Sithiee on Jan. 24 2001,08:37

media blackout would be good though...

Posted by aventari on Jan. 24 2001,14:47

quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
you're god damn right i subscribe to an electoral college system. otherwise my area of the country, nice sized "city" with a pop. of 300,000 would have no say at all, while nyc, miami, los angeles, chicago, san francisco, detroit, and boston decided /everything/.

That is exactly what the electoral college CAUSES(with respect to states). If you live in a state such as Califorinia and voted republican, your vote was truely thrown away. With the popular vote it actually would've been included in the final tally.
I dont see how one could possibly think otherwise

I also find it funny how everyone who voted for Bush suddenly loves the electoral system, and if you voted for Gore you think it need to go.
Me? I voted for Browne. And i think the electoral college was designed for a different era and needs to be kicked the fuck out.

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aventari
"If God had meant for us to use the metric system, we would have been born with ten fingers and ten toes."

Posted by kuru on Jan. 24 2001,17:42

you're god damn right i subscribe to an electoral college system. otherwise my area of the country, nice sized "city" with a pop. of 300,000 would have no say at all, while nyc, miami, los angeles, chicago, san francisco, detroit, and boston decided /everything/.

you really think i wanna stand for the rest of the country being ignored for THOSE cities? ha.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 24 2001,18:35

population of the midwest 64,392,776
population of 6 largest metro areas in the u.s
1. New York-Northern N.J.-L.I., NY-NJ-CT-PA CMSA (1).......... 20,196,649
2. Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County, CA CMSA............... 16,036,587
3. Chicago-Gary-Kenosha, IL-IN-WI CMSA........................ 8,885,919
4. Washington-Baltimore, DC-MD-VA-WV CMSA..................... 7,359,044
5. San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, CA CMSA.................... 6,873,645
6. Philadelphia-Wilm.-Atl. City, PA-NJ-DE-MD CMSA (2)......... 5,999,034
total population 6 largest metro areas
65,350,878-Chicago metro being it's in the midwest 56,464,959 so your argument there is crap and this is census info if i counted just the city themselfves you would be way off. And Rural areas tend to vote one paty too as well as the suburbs wich are counted here too.

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 25, 2001 at 01:58 PM

Posted by Sithiee on Jan. 25 2001,01:01

kuru, what kind of crack do you smoke? do you think that just because someone lives in california that they are automatically liberal? do you think that because someone is rich that they are conservative? wake up and smell the diversity. it might be possible that these 6 large metro areas could outvote the country. but it is so very very unlikely that everyone in those cities feels the same way about politics. just like how everyone in the midwest isnt necessarily conservative. THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. im not saying that the electoral college doesnt serve a purpose, but you argument is based on the idea that everyone in those 6 cities votes the exact same way. your argument is hereby nullified, get a better one.

Posted by kuru on Jan. 25 2001,02:31

my argument isn't nullified if you look at the map of states that went to bush vs the states that went to gore. and if you look at it county by county, you'll see that the major cities went mostly to gore. new england to gore, california to gore, chicago to gore.

the places that went republican were the south, the middle of the country, (aka the bible belt) and ONE new england state.

alaska also went to bush so i guess they're not really all that afraid of oil drilling in their state.

and btw, if you look at your OWN numbers, if those six major cities take out the entire 'midwest.' basically, your numbers prove that an electoral system based only on popular vote secures that certain cities have more say than most states do, and that's not how it's supposed to be.

sithiee, my argument isn't nullified. it's reinforced by the damn red and blue map that pops up after every election, and the freaking landslide results.

california was a slam dunk for gore. so was new york. these aren't my theories, these are realities that show up if you look at the election results county by county for the whole country. by and large, staunch democrats live in big cities and vote strictly democrat, where staunch republicans often live in rural areas and vote only republican.

you can ask any political analyst that. a campaign isn't run to capture all the votes, it's run to capture 'swing votes', those few votes cast by people who cross their party lines.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by kuru on Jan. 25 2001,05:44

and without the electoral college, if you live in a state such as kansas and voted AT ALL, your vote didn't matter.

because there's enough population in the six largest cities in the united states to override the entire midwest.

add to that the fact that cities are generally biased to always vote for one political party, and basically if we did away with the electoral college, that one party would run this country forever... like a succession of kings.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by Sithiee on Jan. 25 2001,08:39

no shit. but the election was pretty damn close this year, the margin of gore winning the popular vote was far less than the margin of error, now dont start arguing about this again, but if those 19000 votes in florida had been marked correctly, gore would have won. the electoral system is in place to balance out peoples votes. but it does it in a bad way. basically, if you life in a highly populated state, like california, your vote could count less than someone in kansas. if youre a republican in california, then theres not much point in voting, because cali is almost guaranteed to go democrat. im not saying there should be no system, but this one is whack.

Posted by kuru on Jan. 25 2001,09:23

if you live in a highly populated state, your vote counts MORE than if you live in a less populated state. you get MORE electoral votes per state.

if you want to keep bitching because gore lost the election (and really, let's face it, if most of the cuban population of miami wasn't pissed off at the democrats over elian, or if al's home state had even liked him, it woulda been a big win for him), then go for it. but you're not accomplishing a damned thing by whining that your vote counted 'less' simply because your candidate didn't win.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

Posted by Sithiee on Jan. 25 2001,18:42

fuck you! that is not the point. this isnt about al gore, or about george bush. its about a system thats lacking in fairness. should i concentrate on an election where the guy i wanted to win won? how about the 92 election? ross perot got 19\% of the popular vote and no electoral votes. is that fair? i mean, if 1/5 of the country that cares enough to vote likes him, then shouldnt we at least give him 1 vote?...no, that would be crazy. the point is that depending on where you live, your vote can be valued less and more, depending on who you vote for. ill come back to my cali example. if the electoral college is supposed to make sure that everyone is given due attention, and weights the voting accordingly, then why is it, that if half of california - 1 votes republican, and the other half votes democrat, those all of those votes go to the democratic candidate, when half of those votes wouldnt be there if not for the republican voters. is that an accurate representation of the way cali feels about the election? 50\% + 1 real support = 100\% support? its not a valid system. as was said before, maybe it worked better way back when, but it is failing now.

edit: 2 math errors

This message has been edited by Sithiee on January 26, 2001 at 09:12 PM

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 25 2001,18:56

If the number of counties a canidate won or the total sq miles a canidate won is only usefull to figrue out were political partyies have strongholds, if you were to look also at population density it is also interesting how ---->most<---people in the most densely populated areas vote Democratic.
Al gore lost i am fine with that i didn't like it but life goes on. The electoral system should be doen so people arnt' disenvrancized as much, this is for republicans minorityes as well. I think congressonal district should vote and the canidate in that district who gets the most votes will get that vote, and the canidate who gets the most votes in terms of districts in a state gets it's two senitoral votes. And if it's a tie in terms of congrssional districts they will split the senotral votes, this way the republican and democratic minotiries in certain areas of states will still matter and winer doesn't take all.

This message has been edited by ic0n0 on January 26, 2001 at 01:59 PM

Posted by aventari on Jan. 25 2001,19:55

quote:
Originally posted by kuru:
if you live in a highly populated state, your vote counts MORE than if you live in a less populated state. you get MORE electoral votes per state.

You are absolutely right, but only on the condition that a majority in your state votes the same way you do. Otherwise, no matter how populous the state you live in, you vote still counts for nil.

Your statement is exactly why the electoral college is a bad thing. Every American, no matter where they live should have the same representation when they vote for president, regardless of locale.

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aventari
"If God had meant for us to use the metric system, we would have been born with ten fingers and ten toes."

Posted by PersonGuy on Jan. 26 2001,01:59

I think... I... agree......... with kuru!

WEIRD, but here argument makes alot of sence! It parabolizes the voting system... and I that's pretty smooth!

*SHAAAAWING* (the sound of a parabola)

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by kuru on Jan. 26 2001,02:54

the electoral college is the best thing we have ever come up with to strike a balance between the more populous states and the less populous states.

it doesn't remove all of the bias toward the more populated states, but it does give a voice to the less populated ones. it narrows, but doesn't completely remove the gap.

and since we are united STATES not united PEOPLE, i think it's doin a pretty good job of giving every state a say in the federal government.

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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost