Topic: Comments on the State of Manhood
started by: damien_s_lucifer
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 18 2002,23:16
This is a letter I wrote to my friend Shelley to apologize for complaining to her that she was a shitty friend. When I reread it, I thought it would make a good post; there's a lot in there about being a Real Man, and the problems and the joys of heterosexual friendships... figured a lot of the Nice Guys here might be able to relate 
I'm posting in the Classroom 'cause the discussion here is usually more intelligent than the Sex Forum.
edit : sorry this is so long...
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ACK! Insomnia again… I miss you, and I miss my kitty. Either one of you could make me fall asleep right now – there’s nothing quite like a sleeping cat or a good friend to still your mind.
You know what the biggest problem with our friendship is? You. You’re so goddamn attractive that I can’t block it out of my mind. When you’re around I try not to be attracted to you, but I can’t… sometimes that makes me feel guilty (like I’m not a good friend) or rejected. Sometimes I take these feelings out on you. I know that, and I’m sorry.
I don’t really know how to avoid it, though. I can’t stop feeling attracted to you. I can’t do anything to make you attracted to me, either… I have my ways, as all plain people do, but I respect you too much to use them without permission. So we go around together, with you having no problem looking at me as just a friend, and me trying very hard to see you that way and failing
Not that this is anything I blame you for, or anything either one of us needs to do something about. These things balance themselves out in time. I just wanted you to know why sometimes I seem to get so frustrated about our friendship, so that when it happens you’ll understand and hopefully not get so insulted… I don’t say things like I did last Saturday to hurt you. I say them because sometimes I feel like I have no outlet for my feelings, and you know how people behave when they feel stuck… they lash out just like an animal does… and that’s exactly what it is for me, plain old lashing out, and I know it’s unfair to you but I’m not sure how to handle it. Can’t switch those feelings off except by not hanging out with you, and I don’t want to do that – I’d lose a really good friend, and I’d be acting so selfishly I’d never let myself live it down. But I haven’t quite figured out how to express them properly either; I never know if flirting and being affectionate is being respectful or disrespectful or what… does that make sense?
And of course, there are times when you call me selfish or arrogant or otherwise question my friendship or motivation, and it’s like… dude, I try so hard to be selfless, I set aside my own feelings a lot, and it’s a real point of pride for me that my love for a woman and what I will do to help her is not based on whether or not she’ll go to bed with me. I don’t know any other men that are like that, especially not my friends; they all think I’m foolish or crazy or I have some kind of disorder, and they let me know it.
But to me, love is what happens when you care deeply about another person and that person cares deeply about you. It’s a good and noble thing, not a disorder. From my point of view, basing love on whether or not someone will have sex with you just cheapens it. But as I said, I don’t know any other men that think this way… I know some men that agree with me when I talk about it, but then they go out and act just like everyone else. If a woman they love won’t have sex with them, they make sure to terminate the friendship, usually by just fading away. I can’t do that, because I don’t think it’s right; you’re not much of a man if you can’t stick around and be fair and deal with it. I may not always live up to the high standards I set for myself, but at least I try very hard, which is more than I can say for most of malekind… I’m not trying to brag. It’s more of a complaint about the current state of the American Male. As a whole, we men suck. The things I do are not something I do to earn the respect of others – as I’ve said, most men think I’m an idiot, so it’s hardly something I can brag about. I just feel it’s the right thing to do.
I’m not being entirely fair. I’ve met two other men during my lifetime that not only thought like me, but acted on it. I was never really good friends with ‘em, which sucks. There’s power in numbers : if one man does it, he’s crazy. If two men do it, they’re gay and don’t know it. If three men do it, it’s a movement; people start paying attention and maybe even trying to imitate you, and things start to change.
I sidetracked myself as usual…
Back to you and me. Like I said, I’m don’t think there’s a practical solution, this is just something that will have to balance itself over time. I just wanted you to know why I lash out like that sometimes, and why I act so strangely in general… especially if we’re going to be going swimming or going to Waterworld or even just hanging out alone this summer, if I seem to be acting arrogant or aloof and I don’t look directly at you, you’ll know why, and I hope you won’t think I’m being an asshole because I’m trying very hard not to be one. Must… not…act… on… dirty… feelings… must… respect…best… friend… Shelley… It’s hard to be “just friends” with you sometimes, but nothing in life that’s worthwhile is easy all the time. And you are definitely worthwhile. I wouldn’t trade you for anything
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 19 2002,00:44
if she still wants to be 'just friends' after a monolouge like that, someone needs to slap her.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 19 2002,01:08
nah, now is a bad time for anything more.
Posted by Bozeman on Apr. 19 2002,02:28
It's good to know there's another nice guy on detnet.Stay cool, DSL.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 19 2002,02:51
She's lucky to have you as a friend, every chick needs a guy like you around.But if you wrote that letter to me, I don't think I'd want to be just friends anymore, bad idea or not.
Posted by Wiley on Apr. 19 2002,03:25
I swear to god I wrote that same letter to my female best friend a few years ago. I now have the belief that men and women can't be that good of friends. She didn't take my growing relationship with my gf too well ...although she never wanted to date me. One day I had to make a decision between the two of them 
That was indeed a dark day.
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 19 2002,04:21
/me finishes taking notes; clasps hands together in silent homage.You have much to teach us...
Posted by Marie on Apr. 19 2002,08:57
[I]I must say you seem to be handling the situation quite well.It's amazing how understanding someone can be when you are in a strong friendship. 
Posted by TheTaxMan on Apr. 19 2002,16:06
| Quote (kuru @ 18 April 2002,18:51) |
| Quote |
| She's lucky to have you as a friend, every chick needs a guy like you around. |
Ca c'est le problem. We get stuck in these situations where, well, we're stuck (yes, I am a member of Incoherents Anonymous).
| Quote |
| But if you wrote that letter to me, I don't think I'd want to be just friends anymore, bad idea or not. |
Unfortunately, this improves the situation 'not. The pessimist in me (shifting the subject -completely- away from DSL
) knows that it won't lst forever, and then I'll be down a good/best friend. How weird that my best friend is of the opposite sex. Hm.I don't mean to go through and quote every one of your posts, kuru, but it's easier for me to work off of them. It's not offensive (this time?) at least.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 19 2002,22:02
I'd be a pessimist too if I hadn't seen the alternative... which is where your best friend tells her boyfriend that she loves the both of you, and if he doesn't like that he knows the way out.Boyfriend gets mad for a little while, and then accepts it and becomes your friend too. A little further down the road, he tells his girlfriend that if he ever dies or for some reason they ever break up, he wants her to be with you because he knows you'll take care of her.
That happened with another friend of mine, and we're still great friends years later
Posted by Beastie Dr on Apr. 19 2002,23:29
Problem with letters like those are that signals can be so fucking mixed. Usually results are good, but the fear of ruining a good friendship would stop me from writing that kind of letter.Hi. I'm Dan.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 19 2002,23:53
Hi, Dan. Welcome to Detnet.I could see how a letter like the one I wrote could ruin some friendships. But Shelley & I talk so much that there's nothing in there that came as any surprise to her. That letter is just a distillation of things I've said many times already, a way to collect them all and put them all in one place and try and make sense of them.
Anyway, after reading that she is requesting more letters