Topic: Future of Palestine and Israel a poll
started by: ic0n0
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 10 2002,19:43
Just want thoughts on the subject
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,22:10
the violence will continue until somebody "wins". the israelis MUST win at any cost, because suicide bombing CAN NOT be considered a legitimate and successful form of protest. if it is, then soon the chicanos in california will be blowing up sbarro's in LA in protest of texas not being returned to "Aztlan".
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Apr. 11 2002,01:56
I guess CK's going with the whole "we were here first so we deserve to win" attitude...
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 11 2002,02:28
As he always does.
Posted by CycleLady on Apr. 15 2002,22:15
The violence between Palestine and Israel was in historical records before Christ. I think it unlikely that this violence will end regardless of any negotiations. What may happen is that the violence will lessen. Jerusalem is holy to Christians, Muslims, Jews, and forgive me if I'm not aware of any other religion wishing to stake a claim on that particular land. People are and will continue to fight to the death over their sacred land promised to them by their forefathers.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 15 2002,22:29
The problem comes in when one of those sides is not willing to use tactics that are recognized as reasonable forms of warfare and the whole world condemns the other side when they respond to such terrorist acts.What needs to happen is that the Palestinians need to accept the deals they're offered. But because the the particular brand of Islam that the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah subscribe to, that will never happen. Why not? Because those sects of Islam preach that a 'westernized' state, much less a Jewish one, should not exist anywhere on earth.
The religion of those sects dictates that they've got to kill or convert anyone who doesn't subscribe to their beliefs... this doesn't leave much room for negotiation.
Posted by fatalbert on Apr. 15 2002,23:46
other:kill them all, let God sort them out.
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 16 2002,00:15
| Quote |
| The problem comes in when one of those sides is not willing to use tactics that are recognized as reasonable forms of warfare and the whole world condemns the other side when they respond to such terrorist acts. |
recognized by who? The people doing the suicide bombings would probably call it reasonable, and im sure the whole arab world would agree. I agree too. If someone occupies your homeland, you're justified in doing anything you can possibly do to make life shitty for your opressors.
Also keep in mind that the western world taught muslims much about fanatisism during the crusades... they have far to go to reach that level of butchery.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 16 2002,00:28
#A local boy blew me family up this weekbut i just smiled at him and i turned the other cheek
I really don't care in fact i wish him well
cos i'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell!#
- The first ever Amish Israelite
Posted by kuru on Apr. 16 2002,00:47
1. They never had a homeland.2. The crusades ended in the 1400s. It's about goddamn time to move the hell on.
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 16 2002,01:32
| Quote |
| 1. They never had a homeland. |
how long does someone have to live in a place before its their homeland? a few years? a few thousand? Weren't the palastinians thre before the jews came in and forcefully took thier land?
| Quote |
| The crusades ended in the 1400s. It's about goddamn time to move the hell on. |
interesting..... when i say the same shit about jews adn the holocost, everyone thinks im Hitler Jr. I guess someone should tell the palastinians that they're only allowed to play the part of the victim when Kuru is comfortable with it.
Posted by CycleLady on Apr. 16 2002,02:16
That area has many sacred places that both Islamic and Jewish people alike claim. It will take Moses, Mohammed, or even perhaps God to settle this disputed territory.
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 16 2002,02:23
I am pretty pessamistic about this, too many people on both sides are going to die before this even comes close to a resolution.
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 16 2002,03:31
| Quote (CycleLady @ 15 April 2002,20:16) |
| That area has many sacred places that both Islamic and Jewish people alike claim. It will take Moses, Mohammed, or even perhaps God to settle this disputed territory. |
Hmm... God, eh? This gives me a wonderful idea... All I need is a nuclear bomb, some cotton candy, a flowing robe, a spotlight and a megaphone...
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 16 2002,03:32
| Quote (Uberkommando @ 15 April 2002,13:31) | ||
Hmm... God, eh? This gives me a wonderful idea... All I need is a nuclear bomb, some cotton candy, a flowing robe, a spotlight and a megaphone... |
You know this gives me an idea! all i need is none of that and a pillow!
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 17 2002,05:53
ck - I'm sorry, but just because you're getting hit with suicide bombers, that doesn't justify leveling entire cities.::sigh:: the sad thing is, the Israelis aren't any better than the Palestinians. This is the kind of shit that happens any time you've got a large, homogenous group of people that don't like another large, homogenous group of people... the creation of Israel as a Jewish state was a mistake in the first place.
There is nothing worse than creating a new state by, for, and of one specific ethnic group, especially an ethnic group that holds "we are the chosen tribe of God" as one of their core beliefs. Call me anti-Semitic*, but that sounds like a baaaaaad idea to me...
The UN should've called the new state The United Republic of the Holy Lands or something like that, dedicated it to the three great faiths of the western world, and required co-administration of the holy cities. It would've kept a lot of problems from ever occurring.
* Have you ever noticed that saying anything about Jews other than calling them the most beautiful and tolerant and oppressed people on Earth automatically makes you a Nazi sympathizer? It's fucking ridiculous. The Jews have done a lot of wonderful things, to be sure, but at the same time most of the ones I've met seem to have a martyr complex.
The Holocaust was horrible... but that doesn't give people the right to stifle discourse by calling anyone who disagrees with some particular aspect of Jewish culture "anti-Semitic."
BlackFlag, this does NOT mean I agree with you in any way. You are intolerant and hateful. I simply think that the need for freedom of speech and discourse outweighs the fears of a particular ethnic group.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 17 2002,06:09
| Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 16 April 2002,16:53) |
| ck - I'm sorry, but just because you're getting hit with suicide bombers, that doesn't justify leveling entire cities. ::sigh:: the sad thing is, the Israelis aren't any better than the Palestinians. This is the kind of shit that happens any time you've got a large, homogenous group of people that don't like another large, homogenous group of people... the creation of Israel as a Jewish state was a mistake in the first place. There is nothing worse than creating a new state by, for, and of one specific ethnic group, especially an ethnic group that holds "we are the chosen tribe of God" as one of their core beliefs. Call me anti-Semitic*, but that sounds like a baaaaaad idea to me... The UN should've called the new state The United Republic of the Holy Lands or something like that, dedicated it to the three great faiths of the western world, and required co-administration of the holy cities. It would've kept a lot of problems from ever occurring. * Have you ever noticed that saying anything about Jews other than calling them the most beautiful and tolerant and oppressed people on Earth automatically makes you a Nazi sympathizer? It's fucking ridiculous. The Jews have done a lot of wonderful things, to be sure, but at the same time most of the ones I've met seem to have a martyr complex. The Holocaust was horrible... but that doesn't give people the right to stifle discourse by calling anyone who disagrees with some particular aspect of Jewish culture "anti-Semitic." BlackFlag, this does NOT mean I agree with you in any way. You are intolerant and hateful. I simply think that the need for freedom of speech and discourse outweighs the fears of a particular ethnic group. |
the israelis ARE better then the palestinians. the israelis are not leveling any cities, flying planes into buildings, nor paying families to send their children to blow up civilians. equaing that to military counter attacks against terrorist cells is just idiotic (case in point).
you mentioned some sort of joint ownership of the land. israel offered that, but arafat refused. they dont want to live together, the arabs want all jews dead. this FACT means that in no way can the two sides be equated.
you talk about a martyr complex. jesus christ, are you blind? look what the palestinians are doing! how can you call the jews martyr-lovers like that?
oh, and don't ever say QED again, you're an idiot.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 17 2002,07:48
| Quote (CatKnight @ 16 April 2002,22:09) |
| oh, and don't ever say QED again, you're an idiot. |
that's funny, because I just completely 0wned you in < this thread >...
and Palestinians != PLO or Hamas. None of the Palestinians I know think either of those groups represent Palestine. And they all think Arafat is a bumbling idiot. Amazingly enough, although they're all pretty upset right now, none of them hate Israel or the Jews. To do so would not be Islamic... apparently hatred is a major sin according to the Qu'ran. They only hate the Israeli government, and with just cause if you ask me. As my buddy Steve likes to say, "what kind of government sends its own citizens to settle a war zone? The Israeli government fucks over Palestinians and Jews alike."
However, since I said most of the Jews I'd met had some sort of martyr complex (I should say practicing Jews; I have a couple friends who are non-practicing and they're as mellow as anyone), I suppose I owe the Palestinians a culture flame as well... ok. They don't like gay people at all, and they talk for hours about how disgusting they think it is. But they don't hate 'em, that's not Islamic
They just figure Allah is going to let some good old-fashioned wrath fly one of these days, and they don't want to be living in the house next door when he does.
Posted by veistran on Apr. 17 2002,09:45
honestly, I have no goddamned sympathy for the Palestians because of their complete disregard for human life, not only do they try their damndest to kill as many Israelis as possible, they spend more time, energy, and resources convincing their CHILDREN that their lives are so empty of meaning and empty of promise that becoming a suicide bomber is their best way to accomplish something with their meaningless life. I mean why don't they spend their time energy and resources doing things that will actually make their children's lives better?
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 17 2002,12:06
| Quote (veistran @ 17 April 2002,01:45) |
yeah! they're not individuals or anything... hell, they're barely human!
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 17 2002,12:40
| Quote |
| the israelis ARE better then the palestinians. the israelis are not leveling any cities, flying planes into buildings, nor paying families to send their children to blow up civilians. |
CK obviously doesnt think targetting civilian water supply lines opening fire on unarmed civilians and shelling refugee camps as a bad thing. And the invasion hasn't stopped the suicide bombings either.
Posted by veistran on Apr. 17 2002,16:52
6-->| Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 17 April 2002,066) | ||
yeah! they're not individuals or anything... hell, they're barely human! |
If it stinks like shit and looks like shit, it probably is shit. When something like suicide bomber has an approximate approval rating of 80%, I think it's an okay time to generalize. I like to think I've got a pretty well rounded viewpoint, I read quite a bit of publications from the States and abroad. The conclusions I draw aren't based upon some simple minded pathalogical hate ala BF. I honestly believe that the Palestinians with no small amount of help from the Israelis have raised a generation of suicide bombers. Weather they are human or not would be another philosophical discussion.
Posted by ASCIIMan on Apr. 18 2002,08:31
| Quote (CatKnight @ 17 April 2002,00:09) |
| the israelis are not leveling any cities, flying planes into buildings, nor paying families to send their children to blow up civilians. |
< You're right! >
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 18 2002,09:55
| Quote |
| Nasser Abu Hatab, a mentally disabled man, was shot once in the head and nine times in the chest by soldiers when he failed to follow orders to leave his house minutes before it was bulldozed, they said. Hafaf Dusoky, 54, apparently did not answer a jittery soldier’s knock quickly enough and was shot dead through the door. |
This is ethnic hatred at its worse, because it's being perpetrated by those who claim to represent democracy and human rights.
The UN or the United States are the proper forces to handle the situation in Palestine. We have the benefit of not giving a rat's ass about who's better than who; we just want the bullshit to stop.
As an added benefit, the Palestinans, the Arabs, and the rest of the modern world will appreciate the way we refrain from shooting civilians and bulldozing their homes.
As for the Jews, they can stand back and watch. Someday they may realize that we saved their ass from something a lot worse than suicide bombings.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 18 2002,13:59
DSL, you're being a bit whack.Israel is a sovereign state, which by definition gives Israel the absolute right to defend its own existence.
That's the way it works with national sovereignty. Why Israel should have to defer to the UN or the United States (even more absurd) to defend its borders from those whose goal is nothing more than the total annihilation of the state of Israel is beyond me.
Israel exists, and as such has a right to defend its existence.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 18 2002,22:47
| Quote (kuru @ 18 April 2002,05:59) |
| Israel is a sovereign state, which by definition gives Israel the absolute right to defend its own existence. |
It's a right, but I don't think it's absolute. Even the United States, currently the world's only superpower, makes sure to confer with the other nations of the free world before it goes and attacks someone.
The outcome of the Israel-Palestine situation will affect much more than Israel and Palestine. If it is resolved in a manner which seems fair and equitable, it will contribute a great deal towards a lasting peace in the middle east.
Peace will do a lot to reduce terrorism.
If, however, it is not satisfactorly resolved, conditions will continue to deteriorate over there, with the result that terrorism will become a lot more popular.
So while the Israelis and Jews in other countries scream about Israel's rights and comparing the suicide bombers to the holocaust, Dubya and the Europeans are very carefully considering how a lasting peace might be achieved. One thing is for certain - letting one ethnic group kick another ethnic group's ass isn't going to help.
For those who think a lasting peace is not possible... take a good, hard look at America's cultural makeup. Three hundred years ago, if you would've suggested a country like this was not only possible, but would become the uncontested world leader, people would've laughed at you.