Topic: The Palestine Problem
started by: damien_s_lucifer
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 10 2002,02:27
Looks like Dubya is finally doing the right thing and telling Israel to fuck off and leave Palestine alone... but I'm don't think that Israel is going to listen. They are sick of the suicide bombings, there is no way the Palestinians are going to hand over more control to Israel to let the Israelis put a stop to it, the Palestinians have no real government to speak of...all of which says to me that our best option is to yell at Israel, and very quietly make plans with Palestinian authorities for a US invasion. Nice thing about our country is 1. our military can kick anyone's ass, 2. we're nice guys that help you build roads, schools, and draw up a good constitutional government, and 3. when the time is right, we go home.
And Israel wouldn't dare to attack US forces. We probably wouldn't attack them back, but we WOULD make sure that no one deals with them until they get their act together.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,02:35
| Quote |
| Looks like Dubya is finally doing the right thing and telling Israel to fuck off |
he actually only said that because he knew israel wouldn't and he wanted to gain some favor with the UN. basically, anyone who is an anti-semite gets favor with the UN.
what did you mean by make plans with palestine to invade? why tell israel to stop attacking and then attack ourselves?
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 10 2002,02:37
Yeah, it's starting to happen. About a month ago, for the first time since Israel's acceptance into the UN, the United States voted against them on Security Counsel resolution, saying that we support the creation of independent state of Palestine.Course, the damn Israelis *did* have to go and elect Sharon for some God-unknown reason. (What must have been going through their minds: "Hey! I remember that guy! He's the one who pushed into refugee camps in foreign countries to massacre Palestinians a coupla years ago, just like us with Hitler! He must have shit together!")
What I think the irony here is, is that it's Jewish immigrants from the US that are causing all this crap.
Solution:
...
I think you guys know what I'm thinking...
Posted by DRUFER on Apr. 10 2002,03:04
An invasion, in favor of either side, would not be a good idea, I think. If we help Isreal crush the Palestinians, that will piss of a lot of arab nations. The arabs live right where the oil is, and i dont think that the the government wants to piss off oil suppliers.(figures that the us keeps from maybe ending this conflict because of oil) On the other hand, if we go into isreal supporting the Palestinians, i suppose it would be like turning our back on them. After all, they are the only goverment in that region similar to ours. I have a feeling it would be bad to cut our ties off to that regon. (now this is leftover from a history class discussion that hurt my head. It could all be rubbish, but i felt like posting it anaway)
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 10 2002,03:12
Well, we obviously can't afford to tick off the Saudis -- it's because we keep our military in the Gulf to help them out that we get our oil $1/barrel cheaper than any other country. And if they mess with our oil imports, like they have about 3 times I can think of, they can screw us bad.We can 'turn our backs' on the Israelis, mostly because they've been turning their backs on us for the last, say, 25 years. They need a good wakeup call. An invasion is obviously retarded, but US recognition of a sovereign Palestinian state would probably help them get the message.
I mean, the Arab league finally acknowledged that Israel had the right to exist, that Saudi Crown Prince writes up another peace plan, and Sharon says, "Okay, we'll talk, but first I'm demanding that the bombers stop their retaliatory attacks, I'm going to lay siege to the Palestinian leader's home, incite a few more suicide bombings, and try to soak up a little more public support for the oh-so-poor Israelis. You mind?" Then he wonders why the suicide bombings don't stop. Idiot.
Sorry bout the big ol' rants, but I'm a hardcore MUN student, suffering from withdrawal in the backwoods of the Midwest.
Posted by TheTaxMan on Apr. 10 2002,04:53
The Isrealies are tired of all the crap they put up with and are doing something about it. Go Isreal. The Independant State of Palestine should have tried a bit harder to stop all the nonesense becasue everyone knew it would come to this.
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 10 2002,05:03
Hahahahaha, this 'crap' they've put with... Any in particular? I mean, getting a free country, Six Day's War, jacking some nukes and claiming they're being hated for no reason -- what exactly have they "had" to put up with? Fuck Israel.And Palestine hadn't had a chance; all the extremist stuff acts independently from any internal leadership the Palestinians can front. Israelis say "stop the violence," Palestinians can't, so they say "stop the mortars," Israelis go to the press citing that Palestinians are unwilling to meet Israeli prerequisites for negotians. Remember Sharon's "one week of peace?"
Posted by veistran on Apr. 10 2002,05:30
Palestinian's are like the red-headed-step-child of the middle east nobody wants them, but when they get beat-up everyone get's pissed off.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,05:43
| Quote |
| what exactly have they "had" to put up with? Fuck Israel. |
Let's all gang-rape ubercommando up the ass for 4000 years and see if he changes his mind.
Posted by editor on Apr. 10 2002,05:47
I feel like I just stepped in dogshit.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,05:57
dogshit, ubercommando, same thing
Posted by Dysorderia on Apr. 10 2002,06:00
| Quote (CatKnight @ 10 April 2002,00:57) |
| dogshit, ubercommando, same thing |
bullshit, catknight, same thing.
Posted by editor on Apr. 10 2002,06:01
...guess I just had a higher ideal for Nuclear Physics types.sorry
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,06:14
btw there havnt been any suicide bombers since israel "invaded" where there were two a day prior.
Posted by editor on Apr. 10 2002,06:19
< boom. >
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,06:29
fuck em
Posted by editor on Apr. 10 2002,07:08
So, would you use your knowledge of radiological stuff to inflict damage on them?You will get asked that a lot.
Posted by j0eSmith on Apr. 10 2002,07:33
I think the US should just stay the fuck out of this.They wouldn't go into Afghanistan when the Taliban were blowing up Buddha and enslaving women.
But fuck, Isreal decides to try a new approach to stop the bombings, oh fuck no, we can't allow that, its not right.
Fuck off, just because this is on TV people pretend to fucking care.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 10 2002,08:22
in case it wasn't clear, I'm talking about a FRIENDLY invasion of Palestine. That means we tell the Israelis to get the fuck out, we'll handle this. Then we march in, get rid of the fucknuggets, build the Palestinians some roads and water lines (Israel has made this damn near impossible), help them establish an effective government, and go home.CatKnight, just because someone says that Israel is *way* out of line does not make them anti-Semetic. If anyone is being racist here, it's the Israelis... hey! Some poor people that we make sure to keep poor so they don't attack us are going insane and attacking us! Let's level their cities!!! Fuck the civilians, they're all alike anyway...
Posted by veistran on Apr. 10 2002,08:30
fuck that, the alst thing we need is a new vietnam.
Posted by Beldurin on Apr. 10 2002,09:23
| Quote (veistran @ 10 April 2002,02:30) |
| fuck that, the alst thing we need is a new vietnam. |
There will never be another Vietnam. The United States learned its lesson from Vietnam. What is that lesson, you ask? Simple: stay out of Vietnam.
Ok, in all seriousness, DSL's idea of a "friendly occupation" is good...in theory. veistran's analogy to Vietnam, however, is even better. Do you honestly believe that the extremist zealots in Palestine (not a generalization, only talking about a specific group) would accept U.S. control, no matter how temporary? They'd see it as exchaning one opressor for another. We couldn't come out and say that getting Israel off their backs was our reason, because that would piss off a good chunk of the Middle East.
It comes back to my theory of why there will never be peace in the Middle East. You cannot mix government and religion successfully (read, with stability). When you combine a sense of political necessity with religious righteousness, you can justify anything, be it social, political, military, whatever. Even training children to act as suicide bombs. When God (in a generic sense...insert diety of your choice) is behind your government, who can stand in your way? Divine Providence, Eminent Domain, etc.
Posted by Crafty Butcher on Apr. 10 2002,12:55
| Quote (Beldurin @ 10 April 2002,09:23) |
| When you combine a sense of political necessity with religious righteousness, you can justify anything, be it social, political, military, whatever. Even training children to act as suicide bombs. When God (in a generic sense...insert diety of your choice) is behind your government, who can stand in your way? |
amen brother. it's the shortcomings of religion that are the problem. not the lack of a political solution. this argument/war will never be over till 'God' is satisfied. When will that be? when the hated infidels (insert jews/arabs depending on p.o.v) are vanquished. that is what 'God' demands. Doesn't sit very well alongside peace and love towards your fellow man does it? God is the problem here and someone needs to kick his ass big-style.
Posted by Crafty Butcher on Apr. 10 2002,14:05
| Quote (veistran @ 10 April 2002,08:30) |
| fuck that, the alst thing we need is a new vietnam. |
i disagree - i think, if it could be achieved without thousands of deaths on both sides, the US could do with relearning the lessons of vietnam: Don't fuck with ppl you don't understand; You are only right from your point of view; You are not the world's moral conscience - that's the UN; Don't be so fucking arrogant.
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 10 2002,14:07
| Quote (veistran @ 10 April 2002,02:30) |
| fuck that, the alst thing we need is a new vietnam. |
Well, let's see, there's Bosnia... Then Afghanistan... We're soon to see it again in the Philippines...
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 10 2002,14:17
Unfortunately there isn’t a clear answer to the problem; blame whoever you want but blame isn’t going to solve anything. If I was an Israeli I would be pissed off about what is happening to my people, but I would also be pissed of if I was a Palestinian and I was forced to live in shity conditions because my parents were forced of there land 60 years ago. The one thing I know that isn’t going to work is Israel continuing to hit the Palestinians until they suddenly have a revelation and love Israel that just isn’t realistic. I don’t know the answer but continued violence on both sides certainly doesn’t help, both sides are being unreasonable. I am not a pacifist, but I do like to avoid conflict if I can.
Posted by Crafty Butcher on Apr. 10 2002,15:05
| Quote (ic0n0 @ 10 April 2002,14:17) |
| both sides are being unreasonable. |
yes - but one side is being unreasonable with 100 of the latest tanks, a couple of squadrons of F-16's, a shed-load of helicopter gunships, a handful of second-hand nukes and one of the most highly trained armies outside the US. the other side is being unreasonable with a couple of hundred Kalashnikovs and some knocked off plastic explosive and the very latest in stone-throwing technology.
and israel is supposed to be a civilised democracy? you don't see the spanish govt marching into the Basque region and starting to shell villages in order to root out ETA operatives do you?
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 10 2002,15:53
Ah, the Israelies......you'd think a group of people who have been shit on for thousands of years (through no fault of their own, if you ask them) would be more tolerant and understanding of other peoples and cultures.....
What part of having their land taken by and econemy stymied by a superior military power are they so unfamiliar with that they can't understand suicide bombing and rock throwing? What par of being exiled, alienated, and disgraced is so alien to them that they can't comprehend the virulant hatred for them by the palastinians?
I hate jews. I haven't taken their land from them, i haven't slaughtered them, i haven't re-settled them, and i haven't directed mortar fire at them.... but if i did, i wouldn't sit around wondering why they throw rocks at me, and i wouldn't have the fucking balls to portray myself as the fucking victim.
Hate people in peace. Don't discriminate, just quietly hate.
Posted by Beldurin on Apr. 10 2002,16:38
| Quote (BlackFlag @ 10 April 2002,09:53) |
| you'd think a group of people who have been shit on for thousands of years (through no fault of their own, if you ask them) would be more tolerant and understanding of other peoples and cultures..... |
The formerly oppressed make the worst opressors.
| Quote (BlackFlag @ 10 April 2002,09:53) |
| I hate jews. I haven't taken their land from them, i haven't slaughtered them, i haven't re-settled them, and i haven't directed mortar fire at them.... but if i did, i wouldn't sit around wondering why they throw rocks at me, and i wouldn't have the fucking balls to portray myself as the fucking victim. Hate people in peace. Don't discriminate, just quietly hate. |
People like you are a large part of what's wrong with the world.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,17:20
just to let you know, palestinians control 98% of their territory, and were offered their own state, but arafat declined. the only thing keeping the palestinians poor is their own government.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 10 2002,17:46
Arafat declined it for a very good (in terms of self interest) reason. Because he would be killed if he ever agreed to any peace deal that included the existence of the state of Israel.
Hamas and Islamic Jihad are fundamentally opposed to the mere existence of a Jewish state, and will assassinate any 'leader' who agrees to a peace deal including the existence of a Jewish state.
There's a reason that these two cannot live side by side peacefully, and it's that Hamas and Islamic Jihad refuse to recognize the right of Israel to exist at all - they will only be satisfied if Israel is wiped off the map. This is so extreme that the schools funded by some of these fundamentalist Islamic groups (even schools funded with Saudi Arabian Wahabbi money in the United States) have world maps on the wall with one glaring error: there's no Israel on them.
When one group is fundamentally opposed to the existence of another and is willing to kill every last member of that group to remove it from the world, peace is not possible. And that's exactly how Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups see Israel. They will not ever stop the killing until there is no state of Israel.
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 10 2002,17:48
Your telling me that the P.L.A was in control of 98% of the west bank and Gaza? I find that hard to Believe. Who has the best land ck? The Israeli’s Obviously, why? Because they have a far superior military. So CK do you believe the forced removal of 800,000 Palestinians from "Israel" and Taking away their land without any compensation was the correct and proper action that should have been taken?
Posted by kuru on Apr. 10 2002,17:55
| Quote (Beldurin @ 10 April 2002,11:38) |
| People like you are a large part of what's wrong with the world. |
People like him are a large part of the reason the Holocaust wasn't stopped sooner.
Because people told the Jews to look at themselves to find out why they were hated, tortured, persecuted and killed. Because the people of Germany were, at one point, desperate and a maniacal genius gave them a scapegoat.
Hate, hate quietly, say nothing when the _s are rounded up, put into camps and slaughtered.
Someone once said 'First they came for the Jews, and I was silent. Then they came for the Gypsies, and I was silent. Then they came for the Catholics, and I was silent. Then they came for me, and there was no one to speak.'
So, BlackFlag, sooner or later, with all your xenohatred, you're going to hit a group whose blood I share, you intolerant, stupid, disgusting bigot. I pity you, for all you will lose out on by blindly hating people you don't even know.
Posted by Crafty Butcher on Apr. 10 2002,17:57
| Quote (CatKnight @ 10 April 2002,17:20) |
| just to let you know, palestinians control 98% of their territory, |
so? if i invaded Hawaii i think you'd still want the Army to go and kick my ass.
| Quote |
| and were offered their own state, but arafat declined. |
under israeli terms that they knew arafat couldn't accept without being lynched by his own ppl. It would be like Dubya giving control of Hawaii to Russia. He wouldn't stay in power very long.
| Quote |
| the only thing keeping the palestinians poor is their own government. |
not to mention having very few natural resources, little industrialisation and not exactly being the ideal place for a holiday.
Posted by Crafty Butcher on Apr. 10 2002,18:05
| Quote (kuru @ 10 April 2002,17:55) |
| So, BlackFlag, sooner or later, with all your xenohatred, you're going to hit a group whose blood I share, you intolerant, stupid, disgusting bigot. I pity you, for all you will lose out on by blindly hating people you don't even know. |
i appear to be echoing kuru today but yep...um...what she said.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 10 2002,18:12
| Quote (ic0n0 @ 10 April 2002,12:48) |
| Your telling me that the P.L.A was in control of 98% of the west bank and Gaza? I find that hard to Believe. Who has the best land ck? The Israeli’s Obviously, why? Because they have a far superior military. So CK do you believe the forced removal of 800,000 Palestinians from "Israel" and Taking away their land without any compensation was the correct and proper action that should have been taken? |
First, there never was a recognized state of Palestine. Not after 1948 and not before 1948. There never was an official government there.
Second, the Palestinians do control most of (and were offered total control of) the West Bank and Gaza. They were also offered Jerusalem at the summit in the United States with Israel's then Prime Minister Ehud Barak (1999-2001). Yasser Arafat was offered 98.5% of all his demands, and he turned his back and the violence continued. Arafat has broken peace accords and agreements that were made in Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United States. He broke 23 articles of a peace accord by beginning the intifada in 1987 after some 20 years of peace - and economic upswing by Palestinians.
Just before intifada began, Palestinian unemployment levels were as low as Israeli unemployment - running between 8 and 9%. Israel encouraged the opening of seven Palestinian universities, and Palestinian businessmen bolstered by money they had made in western markets for the previous 20 years were enjoying as high a standard of living as their Israeli counterparts.
After this intifada, the Israelis, under heavy pressure from the West offered control of 88 to 95% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians, giving them complete control of their own land. This would include the forced evacuation of 40,000 Jewish settlers and turning over large portions of Jerusalem to Palestinian control. At the Camp David meetings with President Clinton and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netenyahu, Arafat declared these terms to be 'not enough' and left. Shortly after, the intifada resumed and Palestinian suicide bombers resumed activity. Appeasement is no longer an option for Israel if it wishes to survive as a state.
Still think it's all Israel's fault?
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 10 2002,18:58
That doesn't have anything to do with the forced removal of people at all. I never said Israel was the problem but they certainly don't help there own cause. The problem I have is with the removal with out compensation, it doesn't matter if there was no legal Palestinian government because when Israel declared it's independence most of the people in the area were Arab and didn't want anything to do with that, and many were forced out during the Israeli war of independence. That is Israelis original sin and they keep paying for it, the Palestinian terrorists I have no sympathy for but I do sympathize with the Palestinian people and I also sympathize with the Israeli civilians, right now the Palestinians terrorists are more wrong than the Israeli military is. I do support Israel in it’s self defense but you have to understand what the Palestinians think to solve the problem, Arafat couldn’t accept a peace deal he would be eliminated very quickly.
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 10 2002,19:08
I will say this, it is a lot easier to criticize Israel because Israel is run by rational elected leaders, you can reason with Israel. But who is in charge of the Palestinians? Arafat is a powerless figurehead. In anarchy it’s hard to criticize something without any Cohesive structure.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 10 2002,19:53
Arafat is not a powerless figurehead. He actually does pretty well at making sure that money routes its way to the terrorist Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups (which he speaks to in Arabic over the Palistinian airwaves at night). He's doing really well at leading the PLO (which actually consists of members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad) in terrorist activities against Israel.
After all, it's not like he's optionless. He could always abdicate. But he doesn't. Why? Because he wants to lead his own war of terrorism.
Posted by DRUFER on Apr. 10 2002,20:57
It was the UN that made a partition inside of what was palastine after world war II. When the borders were created, the 'old generation' arabs agreed to what was laid down. Its the 'new generation' arabs, who follow a fundamentalist version of Islam, who want to take Isreal off of the map. If the fundamentalist groups would quit following what is consirdered a twisted verison of Islam, I dont think there would be problems. Fundamentalists, like Islamic Jihad, belive that their religon is in danger of being taken over by western ideals. The closest place that has a westernized culture: Isreal.
Posted by Beldurin on Apr. 10 2002,21:07
| Quote (ic0n0 @ 10 April 2002,12:58) |
| The problem I have is with the removal with out compensation, |
What kind of compensation would be appropriate? Some glass beads and trinkets a la the trail of tears?
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 10 2002,21:12
| Quote (DRUFER @ 10 April 2002,14:57) |
| It was the UN that made a partition inside of what was palastine after world war II. When the borders were created, the 'old generation' arabs agreed to what was laid down. Its the 'new generation' arabs, who follow a fundamentalist version of Islam, who want to take Isreal off of the map. |
Well, actually, a lot it stems from -- what was it? The Six Days War, I think. Israel returned the Golan Heights an Sinai Penninsula to their original owners, but kept what remained of Palestine -- the West Bank and Gaza strip -- for themselves.
Is that how went? Refresh my memory.
Posted by veistran on Apr. 10 2002,21:28
0-->| Quote (Crafty Butcher @ 10 April 2002,080) |
i disagree - i think, if it could be achieved without thousands of deaths on both sides, the US could do with relearning the lessons of vietnam: Don't fuck with ppl you don't understand; You are only right from your point of view; You are not the world's moral conscience - that's the UN; Don't be so fucking arrogant. |
you seemed to have missed the important lesson of Vietnam, namely that it's not good to fight a war on behalf of someone that doesn't want you to fight a war on their behalf. In this case, if the US got involved millitarily you would be looking at a VERY similiar situation on the ground to that of Vietnam.
| Quote (Uberkommando @ ,) |
| Well,let's see, there's Bosnia... Then Afghanistan... We're soon to see it again in the Philippines... |
Again, Bosnia, nope, I'm not seeing the parralel's between that and Vietnam, the biggest difference has to be how large a role the European's played and have played in that.
Afghanistan, err... yeah so besides the fact that we had guerilla warfare in both... we didn't get involved in a giant land war that we weren't prepared for in any way.. or yeah I think that says enough about the dissimilarity.
Philippines, yeah I guess you could draw some similiarities here, except for the fact that the "terrorists" are a rather small minority, and the people by and large DON'T agree with them and are for getting rid of them. I mean that can't be a big difference.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 10 2002,22:06
| Quote (ic0n0 @ 10 April 2002,04:48) |
| Your telling me that the P.L.A was in control of 98% of the west bank and Gaza? I find that hard to Believe. Who has the best land ck? The Israeli’s Obviously, why? Because they have a far superior military. So CK do you believe the forced removal of 800,000 Palestinians from "Israel" and Taking away their land without any compensation was the correct and proper action that should have been taken? |
actually ic0n0, all of palestine is a wasteland. not even a desert. just rocks. i know, i've been there. there are zero natural resources there. the difference is that israel, with a free market democracy, managed to develop what little there was to develop, and recently has created a very successful technology sector. while the israeli's just want to live their lives in peace and the persuit of happiness, the palestinians have devoted their lives (or rather, their children's lives) to the destruction of israel. as such, they have not developed anything.
and btw the arabs who left in 1948 were not kicked out, they left because they thought israel would be crushed and then they would return. similar goes for gaza and west bank. they invaded, they lost, now they are whining about it.
one last thing, if arafat can't work towards peace because he is afraid he will be assassinated, he is 100% useless and should be kicked out of office. should have been long ago.
Posted by DRUFER on Apr. 10 2002,22:17
'kommando-I found some info on the 6 day war on encarta.
| Quote |
| Israel and its Arab neighbors had been hostile toward each other since 1948, when Israel became a nation in an area that Palestinian Arabs claim as their homeland. After Israel declared its statehood, several Arab states and Palestinian groups immediately attacked Israel, only to be driven back. In 1956 Israel overran Egypt in the Suez-Sinai War. Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser vowed to avenge Arab losses and press the cause of Palestinian nationalism. To this end, he organized an alliance of Arab states surrounding Israel and mobilized for war. Israel preempted the invasion with its own attack on June 5, 1967. In the following days, Israel drove Arab armies from the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights, all of which it then occupied. Israel also reunited Jerusalem, the eastern half of which Jordan had controlled since the 1948-1949 war. The Six-Day War was viewed as an enormous victory for Israel, but the territories it gained did not stop future fighting. The peace process throughout the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s has in large part been an attempt to resolve the land disputes created by Israel’s military success. |
So yeah...i dont think the 6 day war helped the situation any.
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 11 2002,00:41
| Quote |
| People like him are a large part of the reason the Holocaust wasn't stopped sooner. Because people told the Jews to look at themselves to find out why they were hated, tortured, persecuted and killed. Because the people of Germany were, at one point, desperate and a maniacal genius gave them a scapegoat. Hate, hate quietly, say nothing when the _s are rounded up, put into camps and slaughtered. Someone once said 'First they came for the Jews, and I was silent. Then they came for the Gypsies, and I was silent. Then they came for the Catholics, and I was silent. Then they came for me, and there was no one to speak.' So, BlackFlag, sooner or later, with all your xenohatred, you're going to hit a group whose blood I share, you intolerant, stupid, disgusting bigot. I pity you, for all you will lose out on by blindly hating people you don't even know. |
four things:
1. I am not a violent person, and don't advocate violence. Violence is not the answer.... people who can't get along with each other getting the fuck out of each others way is the answer. Don't discriminate, just hate.
2. I don't hate everyone, just jews and koreans.
3. Hitler wouldn't have killed me. I have blond hair, blue eyes, and IQ that could be a zip code, and i look damn good in uniform.
4. what leads to wars is not when individuals hate each other, but when cultures hate each other. I am not a part of this problem because
A- i'm not part of any social/religious/political groupe that advocates racial hatred.
B- My children (not that i plan on having any) will not be taught to hate. I will encourage them to have friends of all different sorts of enthnicities and nationalities. Let them decide for themselves who to hate.
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Apr. 11 2002,01:17
It is coming to the point where the Palestinians aren't going to have much of a choice.1. Get invaded by Israel, and suffer the consequences of being ruled by people who hate you.
2. Get invaded by the US, who don't hate you. We wouldn't care about you either way, except that you're causing instability in the middle east and inspiring people to fly jumbo jets into our favorite buildings.
You hate the Jews. The Jews hate you. We don't hate either of you; we're just sick of this. So we'll gather support from the important Arab nations, and we'll gather support from Israel, and we'll go in and take care of business. We will keep Israel out of your territory and make sure they stop mistreating any Palestinians left in Israel. We will shut down Hamas and the PLO. Otherwise, we'll leave your civilians alone to live their own lives in peace. We will install a secular government along the lines of our own. We will instruct you on the care and maintenance of said government. We will help you build a functioning economy. We will show you why it's much better to get along with Israel rather than fight them (hint : compared to your country, they're extraordinarily rich.) We will stay until the vast majority of the people are satisified that wiping out Israel is a really fucking stupid thing to do. When we leave, we'll make sure to keep some U.S. bases on your soil - in today's world, there is no better security than having the US consider you an important ally.
We did it in Germany. We did it in Japan. And it worked.
I suggested this yesterday to my Palestinian friends - most of them in their 40's - and they were unanimously happy with that plan. I'm not surprised.... believe it or not, people are individuals, no matter how much they seem like sheep sometimes.
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Apr. 11 2002,01:28
The Palestinian/Israel war (and don't claim it hasnt been that cos it has) has been going on for so long now that the fault has been nuried by atrocities on both sides. If you support israel you're a twat. If you support Palestine you're a twat. Both sides say they aren't doing anythign wrong while blaming the other side. You have kids as young as 8 that are willing to kill themselves for the "cause" because they think the other side is to blame. You have a religion which has a suicide get-out clause where if its for "the people" its suddenly not considered suicide but martyrdom.Israel is wrong for invading as its not just targeting military its attacking water supply lines and opening fire on international news crews (i dont have a problem with that last bit fucking journalists) but like i said its been going on for so long now its not about whos right but who can have the last word... or human bomb in this case.
Bush shouldn't get involved as you can't pick sides in this type of thing and EVERYONE knows that a peace keeping force won't do a thing (Bosnia/ Serbia/ EVER). Unfortunately Blair is a wanker and is willing to do what ever bush says to get in his financial good books. Afganistan was a risk that paid off because the people wanted to be helped. Bush is pushing his luck if he thinks he can pull it off again.
Truman didn't help things when his JEWISH advisor "advised" him to give back israel.
I say we go to war with iraq again at least with sadam out of the picture for so long everyone knows he's just building more chem/bio weapons.(They havent let inspectors in for like a decade). Most iraqis are dieing of cancer from either Uranium shells or sadams stuff so in a cold hearted way they're "expendable".
You dont have to agree with me on that last bit but take seriously the israely stuff at least.
Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Apr. 11 2002,01:33
The sooner we invent alternative fuel sources the sooner we can tell the arabs to go fuck themselves b.t.w 
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 11 2002,01:39
| Quote (Dark Knight Bob @ 10 April 2002,11:33) |
| The sooner we invent alternative fuel sources the sooner we can tell the arabs to go fuck themselves b.t.w |
Well of course dude, that much is Obvious. CK i think isreal's success could more likely be attributed to American foreign aid.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 11 2002,03:52
| Quote |
| 1. I am not a violent person, and don't advocate violence. Violence is not the answer.... people who can't get along with each other getting the fuck out of each others way is the answer. Don't discriminate, just hate. 2. I don't hate everyone, just jews and koreans. 3. Hitler wouldn't have killed me. I have blond hair, blue eyes, and IQ that could be a zip code, and i look damn good in uniform. 4. what leads to wars is not when individuals hate each other, but when cultures hate each other. I am not a part of this problem because A- i'm not part of any social/religious/political groupe that advocates racial hatred. |
| Quote |
| 1. Get invaded by Israel, and suffer the consequences of being ruled by people who hate you. |
the jews don't hate arabs just because they are arabs, however.
| Quote |
| CK i think isreal's success could more likely be attributed to American foreign aid. |
so?
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 11 2002,03:53
hey blackflag, why don't you change your avatar to this:
hey look it's a blag flag. I think it matches you pretty well.
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 11 2002,04:44
For once i agree with CK.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 11 2002,13:24
I think CK is right.Forgive me for invoking Godwin's Law, but this time the analogy is apt.
The reason that Hitler succeeded in murdering six million Jews during the Holocaust is that the populace of Germany (and the rest of Europe) ignored the situation. BlackMoron claims that he only 'hates' Jews but he doesn't advocate exterminating them. Well, BlackMoron, because of people like you six million Jews were shot, gassed, burned, worked or tortured to death in Europe between 1935 and 1945.
You may have blonde hair and blue eyes, but your IQ definitely isn't a Zip Code. Nobody who can blindly hate an entire class of people is that intelligent. If you had any brains in your head you'd recognize the stupidity of hating millions of poeple you've never met and never will meet. But you're not intelligent, you're an ignorant, hateful, disgusting turd who doesn't deserve to be called human. Why don't you just leave here? Nobody wants your anti-semetic, racist ass here anyway.
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 11 2002,14:22
| Quote (Dark Knight Bob @ 10 April 2002,19:33) |
| The sooner we invent alternative fuel sources the sooner we can tell the arabs to go fuck themselves b.t.w |
Sooner than that. LUKoil and Yukos in Russia are pretty much the only companies that can compete with Saudi Aramco. Their reserves are as large as Aramco's, and Russia's economy is less dependent on oil than Saudi is, so they'd be able to pull through a price war much more easily.
We can get the Russians to tell the Arabs to go fuck themselves for us.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 11 2002,21:41
onwards and upwards comrade!
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 11 2002,23:49
Once again, the closed minded idiots who are only aware of 2 world-views (their view, and the wrong one) have to force my round peg thinking into their square hole ideology.Yuck Fou.
BTW kuru, you've got this wrong:
| Quote |
| The reason that Hitler succeeded in murdering six million Jews during the Holocaust is that the populace of Germany (and the rest of Europe) ignored the situation. |
Hitler succeeded because he latched onto something as an object of hate (the jews) that a large portion of the population already hated. The rest were either converted to Hitler's thinking with propeganda, or shipped off to the death camps with the jews they defended.
Germany didn't ignore the situation.... they LOVED the situation.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 12 2002,00:17
hitler brainwashed a country by a well known psycological trick whereby natural heriarcal classes emerge when given the proper stimuli. Its the biological sheep instinct of following the crowd. It can cause you to suddenly view you neighbour as something for which death isnt a problem. It can cause freindsin a science experiment on prison psycology to bully the weaker class to the point where the experiment had to be halted for saftey reasons. These people arent evil EVERy human being is suseptable to this effect under the proper conditions. The only cure is the voice of an individual strong enough to oppose the ideology so that enough people shift to the new viewpoint that the sheep instinct will switch to that one.There that's explained that whole thing. Germans didnt just wake up one morning and decide that the hated jews and balcks and gays it was hitlers socail conditiong.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 12 2002,01:05
ya apparantly it worked pretty well on blackflag too
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 12 2002,01:09
hitler exploited the fact that most germans already hated the jews. He took this hate a few steps further, blaming them for their poor economic status, their defeat in WWI, the decline of morality, etc... and created a 'final solution' to the 'problem'.Hitler didn't make germans hate jews, he just took advantage of it.
fact 1- the average jew in germany had more money/property than the average german.
fact 2- even before the death camp round ups, hitler began seizing jewish property and money, and distributing it to the people (his people actually....)
fact 3- this redistribution of wealth gave a boost to the stagnant econemy.
now, if you're a german who already hates jews for whatever reason, wouldn't the above alone make a compelling argument for Hitler's 'final solution'?
No brainwashing was involved. Hitler just cleverly manipulated public opinion, and the people loved the results.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 12 2002,01:24
excuse me but you can use any thing to find a reason to hate someone.the redistribution of the wealth is the social conditioning i was talking about. It gave people reasons to hate them because hitler orcestrated.
you try to prove me wrong and end up just proving what i said.
You can have black freinds. but you can be conditioned to hate them using stereotypes and such.
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 12 2002,02:47
I'm going to look like a bad guy, but BF is right. Antisemitism was already heating up in Europe and America before Hitler took power. He did, of course, pitch on the people's growing fear and hatred of Jews, and made the situation much worse, but he himself wasn't responsible for the base of the trend -- it was already firmly established.Read up on his years in Vienna.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 12 2002,03:22
| Quote |
| fact 2- even before the death camp round ups, hitler began seizing jewish property and money, and distributing it to the people (his people actually....) fact 3- this redistribution of wealth gave a boost to the stagnant econemy. |
2-the jews were his people too
3-war production brought the economy back. and actually, the persecution of jews, who owned many buissness, badly damaged their economy.
Posted by editor on Apr. 12 2002,03:56
... didn't it also lead to Einstein coming to America?-whew-
Posted by veistran on Apr. 12 2002,08:27
| Quote (Uberkommando @ 11 April 2002,20:47) |
| I'm going to look like a bad guy, but BF is right. Antisemitism was already heating up in Europe and America before Hitler took power. He did, of course, pitch on the people's growing fear and hatred of Jews, and made the situation much worse, but he himself wasn't responsible for the base of the trend -- it was already firmly established. Read up on his years in Vienna. |
yes, european anti-semitism pre-dates hitler by a few hundred years give or take.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 12 2002,13:56
well hey, genocide's been around since gengis khan. that doesn't change anything though. it's still wrong.
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 12 2002,14:07
<---------------------- whoever did this is a fucking asshole. i wonder who...........god damn power-mad admins.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 12 2002,14:14
I guess BlackMoron's under the impression that everyone in Germany at the time supported Hitler's regime because they were all anti-semites.That's actually not true.
When Hitler was elected president of Germany, he got just over 30% of the vote. Somewhere near 70% of the German voting public did not want him to be their leader. Some of them eventually began to buy into the belief that the Jews were responsible for Germany's dire economic straits, but many many more simply refused to believe that places like Dachau and Auschwitz actually existed. The never ending barrage of propoganda even led Jews to begin a process of 'self loathing', as one of Hitler's campaigns was a constant broadcast to Jews to look at themselves for the reasons they were hated. Hitler's mission was to first dehumanize the Jews in the eyes of the German public, not necessarily to cause hate. Hatred wasn't obligatory to his cause, all he needed was for Germany at large to be so apathetic about the Jews that he could execute them en masse without fear of reprisal.
And that's what happened. German objectors to the Nazi regime were silent and closeted, few who would have taken action did so out of fear of Hitler or simple apathy to the plight of the Jews, whom Hitler had dehumanized. These Germans didn't care as long as nobody was coming for them, remaining in a state of blissful ignorance about where their neighbors went after being loaded into cattle trains. They either didn't see the Jews as human and so didn't care enough to help them, or they were too afraid of what would happen to them if they did help.
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 12 2002,14:26
well shit me purple! The bitch is not only a theoretical physics expert, but now also a history expert!!!The fact that hitler only got 30% of the vote might be missleading to someone used to a 2 party system. Germany had multiple parties, Hitler got the largest % of votes.
The plight of the jews, contrary to what you might think, was just a means to an end.
What started with simple hate-mongering was built upon with de-humanizing the jews (while simultaneously super-humanizing the germans as the perfect aryan race) to create a social narsicism effect (i.e. we are better than you). To what end? To create a powerfull 'manifest destiny' type ideology in the minds of his people..... that they are doing what they are doing because it is their right, and their destiny, and anything they do is therefore permissible/justifiable(sp?) because they are god's chosen people, the perfect super race of humans.
Posted by Dysorderia on Apr. 12 2002,17:05
| Quote (BlackFlag @ 12 April 2002,09:07) |
| <---------------------- whoever did this is a fucking asshole. i wonder who........... god damn power-mad admins. |
normally i try not to mess with people's account info, but in your case BF, i made an exception
Posted by Vulu on Apr. 12 2002,18:15
i urge you all to read this post from my website:< http://loworbit.net/main.php?entry=00000141 >
Posted by Beldurin on Apr. 12 2002,18:51
I hate to look like the bad guy/turncoat, but Dys, you need to change BF's avatar back. He's an ass, a bigot, and a moron, but you're still out of line.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 12 2002,19:24
Yeah, I only spent four years researching Adolf Hitler, the Nazi party, the Third Reich, the impetus for WWII, the Allied response, and world impact due to the war in the European Theatre. Damn me, I educate myself for fun.
As for Hitler having been elected president of Germany, it really was an awful thing that the plight of the German people, their economy in ruins due to the WWI, were hungry and desperate enough to trust a charismatic, evil, lunatic of a genuis to give him 30% of the vote. Most of them probably never knew that his greatest peeve in life, and the reason he abandoned Austria for Germany was that he couldn't succeed in art school and blamed Jews for his failures.
At its most basal level, Adolf Hitler hated Jews because he didn't want to be a civil servant like his father and he blamed successful Jews for all of his shortcomings. He was definitely charismatic as an orator and had an uncanny ability to get people to wrap their minds around disgusting ideas, but he lacked the military intelligence to realize that he was on a fool's mission. His only hope was that people would just roll over and give him what he wanted, and that didn't last long. His takeover of Germany might not have even been complete if it hadn't been for getting the German citizens to turn in all of their guns before they realized that he was nothing more than a genocidal maniac on an extended ego vacation. Hell the 'Final Solution' wasn't even proposed by him, because he lacked the balls to carry out much of what he spent Mein Kampf intellectually masturbating about. No documents or credible reports of Hitler actually ordering the 'Final Solution' have ever been found. Most of it appears to have been carried out by Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Josef Goebbels and Hermann Goering. It seems that the only actual record of Hitler giving such an order came from a single entry in Goebbels diary from 1941 that said "With respect to the Jewish Question, the Furher has decided to make a clean sweep."
Of course by then Jews were already being executed by the hundreds of thousands during the blitzkrieg as special execution teams followed the regular army through Russia to execute any that remained - and this happened before Hitler's direct 'answer'.
All of which was kept from the German population at large because the Reich knew that publicity would cause revolt which would spoil their plans. This secrecy, along with the propensity for the Nazis to not document anything regarding the 'Final Solution' and the fact that high ranking SS officers who refused to execute Jews in gas chambers were NOT ever punished was used as evidence in the Nuremburg trials to prove that the Nazis knew at the time they comitted these acts that they were wrong on all legal, moral and ethical levels.
So, yeah, there is considerable evidence that:
1) The German population was kept completely unaware of the 'Final Solution'.
2) Many of those who did know about it knew it was wrong and refused to participate in it.
3) Those who did not participate because they knew it was wrong also made no effort to stop it.
I wonder, how might things have turned out if those SS officers who knew their actions were wrong and refused to carry out their orders had actually fought back. But we'll never know, because they didn't. They sat idly by while other people did unspeakable evil.
As for BlackMoron's avatar, what was done to him is far less of an offense than what he's said of posters on this board who are encompassed by his racist and anti-Semitic bullshit.
Posted by Bozeman on Apr. 12 2002,21:18
No one deserves what happened to BF. Even though he said, in my opinion, some horrible things, I wouldn't have fucked with his icon. I would find a calm way to resolve the conflict without starting a flamewar. I'm going back into my detnet shell now, and come out when the flames die down.P.S. If this offends you, don't change my icon. It's just rude.
Posted by Dysorderia on Apr. 12 2002,21:30
| Quote (Bozeman @ 12 April 2002,16:18) |
| I would find a calm way to resolve the conflict without starting a flamewar. |
been tried already.
didn't work
Posted by ic0n0 on Apr. 12 2002,21:35
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 12 2002,22:47
hundreds of thousands of jews getting rounded up, and shipped to [undisclosed location] in cattle cars (cattle cars for gods sake).......This after waves of anti-semetic violence, after jews have had property and money stolen from them, after jews were forced to wear patches on their clothing identifying them as jews.............
And you seriously think the german people didn't know what was going on?!?!?!
They knew god damn good and well, but as long as they could convince themselves that they it wasn't their responsibility since they didn't know for sure, then everything was ok.
The thin veneir the Nazis threw over the final solution could only be maintained by the over-eager willingness of the german people to accept it. They were glad it was happening because they hated the jews, but at the same time they felt guilty because despite Hitler's de-humanizing of the jews, the germans realized the jews were still human....... so they latched onto convincing themselves they were ignorant in order to dissavow any responsibility.
Germany was and still is full of anti-semitism. Shit, where do you think all this neo-nazi 4th Reich bullshit is comming from?
Edit:
Vulu- looked at that link. I'm impressed; i had thought you were an idiot. My apologies.
Edit2:
| Quote |
| but he lacked the military intelligence to realize that he was on a fool's mission. |
If Hitler would have just stayed the fuck out of the way of his generals, we'd all be speaking german right now.
Posted by editor on Apr. 12 2002,22:59
Mr BF, I'm posting a rant about your icon in the Rant Forum.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 12 2002,23:05
what part of social conditioning do you not understand blackflag. you think hitler turned a nation over night? you think slobadan managed to get his country to commit genocide over night? | Quote |
| They knew god damn good and well, but as long as they could convince themselves that they it wasn't their responsibility since they didn't know for sure, then everything was ok. |
this is exactly what i mean by how ANYONE can be led to believe in this way.you don't need to hate people before hand. in principle you can get someone to kill someone for leaving the toilet seat up you just need to know how to create misdirection and propoganda.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 12 2002,23:26
| Quote (BlackFlag @ 12 April 2002,17:47) | ||
| Shit, where do you think all this neo-nazi 4th Reich bullshit is comming from? *** snip *** Edit2:
If Hitler would have just stayed the fuck out of the way of his generals, we'd all be speaking german right now. |
1. From ignorant pieces of human filth such as you. I really hope you espouse your views on the street so that someone can beat the shit out of you like you deserve. I'd volunteer to do it, but I really don't want your shit on my boots.
2. 'His generals' never would've let him conduct the full scale war he wanted because it is folly to attempt to fight a war on two fronts, which is exactly what he wanted. World domination and all that. A smart military advisor would've told him that it wasn't possible.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 12 2002,23:53
just be glad we accidentaly dropped some bombs on berlin or our airforce would've been obliterated thanks to hitlers planes had he not decided to retaliate.
Posted by editor on Apr. 13 2002,00:55
Mr Necro, there are actually a couple people here who know about such stuff.The AAF led a determined campaign of daylight strategic precision bombing that helped end the war in Europe.
One of Hitler's many mistakes was to concentrate on producing tactical aircraft at the expense of strategic bombers.
He didn't have a way to attack US soil, although the V2s were promising.
We made a serious mistake not going after their electrical grid nor did we concentrate enough on wiping out their oil and ball bearing plants.
We did an excellent job going after infrastructure and transportation, though.
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 13 2002,01:13
i was talking about the battle of britain before the US got involved
Posted by TheTaxMan on Apr. 13 2002,01:50
Not only did he conduct a multi-fronted (mmMMmmMMmm) war, he commited one the classic blunders. Never get involved with a Sicilian when...wait...Yes. Napolean showed us Russia is (or at least -was-) invincible to invasion.
Posted by editor on Apr. 13 2002,01:51
Doh! You must be a Brit! Oops.You are right on there. By going after the RAF, Goering had almost won the BoB, and then got distracted when one of his raids went astray and nailed London.
You know what happened the next night; Berlin got it.
His strategy collapsed as it became a tit-for-tat city offensive which the British won in a particularly gruesome way culminating in the famous Dresden and Hamburg fire storms. Since they weren't as sexy as Atom bombs, they are much less known, even though they killed about as many people.
When B29s torched Tokyo, the casualties were *higher* than either one of the a-bomb attacks.
Posted by CatKnight on Apr. 13 2002,02:10
| Quote (Vulu @ 12 April 2002,05:15) |
| i urge you all to read this post from my website: < http://loworbit.net/main.php?entry=00000141 > |
hey vulu, I sure hope you didn't write all that, or else I'm going to have to come over there and kick you in the nuts for being so rediculously fucking ignorant. it is almost funny (but sad really) that you seem to have fallen for almost every single propoganda trick of the last two decades.
as for blackflag, why havn't you changed your avatar back?
Posted by Necromancer on Apr. 13 2002,02:22
-bleh
Posted by veistran on Apr. 13 2002,03:53
| Quote (editor @ 12 April 2002,18:55) |
| Mr Necro, there are actually a couple people here who know about such stuff. The AAF led a determined campaign of daylight strategic precision bombing that helped end the war in Europe. One of Hitler's many mistakes was to concentrate on producing tactical aircraft at the expense of strategic bombers. He didn't have a way to attack US soil, although the V2s were promising. We made a serious mistake not going after their electrical grid nor did we concentrate enough on wiping out their oil and ball bearing plants. We did an excellent job going after infrastructure and transportation, though. |
pretty much anyone will tell you that the strategic bombing of germany was a complete failure. about the only thing it did well was kill civillians.
Posted by kuru on Apr. 13 2002,05:07
The first classic blunder is, 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia.'The second classic blunder, only slightly less known is, 'Never get into a battle of wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line.'
hahahahahahahahahahahahu...............*thunk*
Posted by BlackFlag on Apr. 13 2002,23:40
| Quote |
| what part of social conditioning do you not understand blackflag. you think hitler turned a nation over night? you think slobadan managed to get his country to commit genocide over night? |
LOL! The bosnians, serbs, and croats(sp?) have been killing each other for centuries. You really think Milosivich had anything to do with it other than having been on the side that currently had the biggest stick?
Posted by Beldurin on Apr. 14 2002,02:14
| Quote (kuru @ 12 April 2002,23:07) |
| The first classic blunder is, 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia.' The second classic blunder, only slightly less known is, 'Never get into a battle of wits with a Sicilian when death is on the line.' hahahahahahahahahahahahu...............*thunk* |
Close....
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most first is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this:
Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line...hahahahahahahah *thunk*
Posted by Uberkommando on Apr. 14 2002,02:43
Inconceivable!
Posted by Beldurin on Apr. 14 2002,02:48
| Quote (Uberkommando @ 13 April 2002,20:43) |
| Inconceivable! |
You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means.
Posted by Vulu on Apr. 19 2002,19:29
| Quote |
Vulu- looked at that link. I'm impressed; i had thought you were an idiot. My apologies. |
| Quote |
hey vulu,I sure hope you didn't write all that, or else I'm going to have to come over there and kick you in the nuts for being so rediculously fucking ignorant. it is almost funny (but sad really) that you seem to have fallen for almost every single propoganda trick of the last two decades. |
BlackFlag: i'm debating on if i should tell you to fuck off or to thank you
CK: ok, well tell me your views dickhead. if you're going to say something, then back it the fuck up. you're a fucking waste of space. all you ever do is post mind-numbing useless shit. despite the fact that i'm already in a bad mood, you've managed to annoy the hell out of me Mr. 3000+ useless posts. so you want to call me ignorant? prove it.