Ikonboard » Printable Version of Topic » The elections and stuff

Forum: The Classroom
Topic: The elections and stuff
started by: kai

Posted by kai on Nov. 07 2000,22:10

While i'm sure this has been done/being done but, i'm watching right now and the vote is Bush:130 Gore:119

who do you guys want to win and stuff

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I don't need a compass to tell me what time the wind blows

Posted by Rhydant on Nov. 07 2000,22:22

Bush = Idiot.
Gore = Idiot. But better than Bush.
Nader= Good choice. But a vote for Nader, is a vote for Bush. Think about that one.

i still think its really funny that Bush cant finish a sentence without studdering or having to re-phrase. heheehhehee

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Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Posted by kuru on Nov. 07 2000,23:10

bush may = idiot,
but gore = socialist.

that's all i needed to know.

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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 07 2000,23:20

9:18 pm Gore 183, Bush 172. A vote for Nader is NOT a vote for Bush. Most Green supporters would not have voted anyway, and it looks like if Gore takes California, he didn't need that little slice of the pie taken by Nader.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 07 2000,23:37

right now its bush 185, gore 192. bush = dumbass. nader = even dumber. browne = awesome, but a bit too extreme. gore = winner of my clothespin vote....but i cant vote =(

This message has been edited by Sithiee on November 07, 2000 at 06:38 PM

Posted by Ozymandias on Nov. 07 2000,23:57

You all have earned it.

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But where is < Gamera >?

Posted by reman on Nov. 08 2000,00:46

hmmm, i wonder if you frequent the something awful forums...

YUO=FAG0T

woooo...and taco should be president...he'll put a donkey into space.

regards, reman

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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.

Posted by Bluu on Nov. 08 2000,01:09

Keke I make no prediction, but I would want Bush to win at this point. He has a nice personality, and leadership is all that matters unless you're a totalitarian (or something like that) where you could actually complete your promises without interferance.
Again, as covered on this board I'll bet, I simply don't want Gore to win because he is a compulsive liar, and his wife and running mate are very heavy on censorship. Oh yeah he would like to reinterpret the second amendment for us (exageration, cough).
Mr. Harry Browne was the best on this year's ticket but has absolutely no chance, which is why I pressured my dad to vote for Nader to bring attention to him.

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Indeed, your logic is flawed.
-< Bluu >

Posted by PersonGuy on Nov. 08 2000,01:22

I agree. If you don't care, at least vote for Nader. You don't have to like him OR his party either! This is good for you if you like Republicans or Democrats. Here's why: If a 3rd party actually has a chance next year, the 2 major parties will have to get off their ass, and that's good for everybody.

Thankies...

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by Michael on Nov. 08 2000,01:27

Right now it's 229 Bush, 230 gore. Wow. Very close. I'm monitoring < www.cnn.com, > and < www.abc.com, > and I'm listening to cnn through RealAudio and discussing the election with friends on IM. I'll be cheering like crazy when the right guy wins ... as soon as I figure out exactly who the right guy is.

Posted by Michael on Nov. 08 2000,01:27

So that's how double posts happen... Sorry about that.

This message has been edited by Michael on November 07, 2000 at 08:30 PM

Posted by j0eSmith on Nov. 08 2000,01:40

Holeee Sheeit. In the words of Jonesy "This ones gonna be close!"

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 08 2000,01:54

237 to 231 in Bush's favor, close as hell!

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Posted by iso9k on Nov. 08 2000,02:07

quote:
Originally posted by Rhydant:
But a vote for Nader, is a vote for Bush. Think about that one.

I think I argued that one to death. Glad somebody agrees with me!

And look at these results:

Al Gore (DEM) 31,257,203 48\% 17 231
George W. Bush (REP) 31,828,798 49\% 25 225
Ralph Nader (GRN) 1,534,976 2\% 0 0

that part of two percent...maybe 1/3 of them..voted for Gore...the numbers will speak for themselves. I firmly believe that 1/3 of Nadar supporters would not vote Bush...so ....well, think about that one.

Posted by j0eSmith on Nov. 08 2000,02:40

Holy Shit!

246 -Bush
242 -Gore

Not callled. (electroal votes)FL (25), IA (7), OR (7), WI (11)

My god.

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

This message has been edited by j0eSmith on November 07, 2000 at 09:41 PM

Posted by Michael on Nov. 08 2000,02:43

quote:
Originally posted by j0eSmith:
Holy Shit!

You said it. It's down to FL's absentee ballots deciding the president. Scary.

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 08 2000,03:16

The networks are split, most at 242 to 242 now, with Florida the key state. Personally, I think a couple of states were called too soon, but time (a few hours perhaps) will tell. Righ now, Gore needs to get 60\% of the remaining votes from Florida to carry the election, and if it follows the current trend by my calculations he'll get roughly 47\% of the remaining votes from Florida. Of the 10\% left to get, though, there is no real way to know which candidate will get which.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Posted by Michael on Nov. 08 2000,04:09

Now they pretty much all agree that it's 246-242. And they say it may be 3 or 4 AM before we know for sure.

On a different note, isn't it cool that a dead guy got elected to Senate in Missouri?

Posted by Michael on Nov. 08 2000,04:13

Gore got Iowa! 246-249. FL is everything now.

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 08 2000,04:31

Mr. Bush is our new president. At 2:20 this morning, CNN reports that Florida is Bush's victory prize.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Posted by j0eSmith on Nov. 08 2000,04:32

Bush just got Florida.. he wins with 271 electoral votes. Well.. I hope thats a good thing, cause jeesus christ it came right to the wire.

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When my flying days are over, and my death has come to pass
I hope they bury me upside down, so the whole damn world can kiss my ass

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 08 2000,08:20

ummm...yeah....im sure you all know and all, but theyre having to recount, cause its so damn close...Go Gore!...

and nader did have a major effect...in west virginia, it was 49 49 1. if even like half of nader supporters had gone gore, then WV would prolly have gone gore...

Posted by askheaves on Nov. 08 2000,14:45

Damnit! Can't we just make one simple decision? I made one... it was easy! Why can't everybody else just agree with me?

Posted by Michael on Nov. 08 2000,18:17

quote:
Originally posted by askheaves:
Damnit! Can't we just make one simple decision?

But we did make a decision. As you said, it is quite simple, as simple as a yes-or-no question. And the American people have indeed spoken, and answered that question: they voted "maybe."

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 09 2000,00:39

one thing i think some of us will be thankful for is how close this is...since we mostly seem to have pretty strong opinions about who should be president, and the pop vote is really evenly split, that means that the pres will know that really only half the country is for him, so if they want to be pres again, they wont do anything too drastic...thats a bit comforting...except that bush may be too dumb to realize that...oh well...

Posted by Michael on Nov. 09 2000,02:49

quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
so if they want to be pres again, they wont do anything too drastic

Whoever is president for the next four years won't have to worry about that, because there's no chance of their being re-elected. The economy is well overdue for another recession, and it's pretty much agreed by all economists that it will take a downturn in the next few years. Thus, Clinton will be seen as the president who improved our economy, whereas the next president will be very unpopular for presiding over a time of decline, even though it won't be his fault. If Bush becomes president, the chances of another republican being elected after him for many years will be very slim.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 09 2000,10:37

cause and effect people, cause and effect. what will cause this recession? a major change in the economy (bush) or keeping it the same (gore)??

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 09 2000,12:09

quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
cause and effect people, cause and effect. what will cause this recession? a major change in the economy (bush) or keeping it the same (gore)??

Actually, the most direct cause for recession would likely be Clinton. It is a frequently observed phenomenon that most changes that are put in place are just starting to be felt about 4-5 years after they are instigated. Read up a little on civics and economics.

Posted by Michael on Nov. 09 2000,16:29

quote:
Originally posted by Hellraiser:
Actually, the most direct cause for recession would likely be Clinton.

Yes, that's basically true. The "business cycle" is like a set of waves. The waves can be big or small, but if you get a big peak (as we have had with Clinton) it will always be followed by a big drop. The only way to avoid recessions is to avoid quick growth of the economy as well - to flatten out the waves. Clinton kept the economy almost artificially healthy, but that's something that can't be sustained forever. For an good example of how this works, think of the Roaring 20s and how they were immediately followed by a depression.

Oh, and Bush is only up by 793 now, with 46/67 counties reporting. You all probably know that, but I'm putting it down anyways for the record, since this thread is turning into a good blow-by-blow account of the election. Gore is also currently asking for a hand-count in some counties, and people are protesting an ambiguous ballot which may have led thousands to accidentally vote for Buchanan. The count is so close that if Gore wins, Bush will ask for another recount, and it could go on for a long time.

This is frightening. The vote is supposed to be the most fundamental, central aspect of our country, and it seems to be breaking down. This is probably the one of few times in history that a president couldn't even manage to get elected without throwing the country into chaos...

Posted by PersonGuy on Nov. 09 2000,17:00

Mikey's so smart...
Couldn't say it better myself.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by whiskey@throttle on Nov. 09 2000,20:18

Say hello to your next president...Bush.

Just heard on npr news that it's practically official: with just over a 360 vote margin, Bush has held his lead over Gore (though I'm hesitant to trust the media these days). I hear that the overseas ballots are pretty much completely in favor of W as well.

Though I wouldn't say goodbye to Gore just yet. Wouldn't doubt if there's a lengthy "trial of the new century" lawsuit in the works...injunction to revote Florida, perhaps?

This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on November 09, 2000 at 03:26 PM

Posted by Michael on Nov. 09 2000,20:30

quote:
Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
Just heard on npr news that it's practically official: with just over a 360 vote margin, Bush has held his lead over Gore

Practically official, but not completely official yet. There's always hope...

And yes, I'm willing to bet that, with the election this close, Gore won't let it rest with the recount. Of course, a revote is sure to go to Gore, so it's questionable whether or not the government will allow it...

Posted by askheaves on Nov. 09 2000,21:11

quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
Practically official, but not completely official yet. There's always hope...
And yes, I'm willing to bet that, with the election this close, Gore won't let it rest with the recount. Of course, a revote is sure to go to Gore, so it's questionable whether or not the government will allow it...

The people have spoken, just that we're not sure what they said, so we're going to ask them to repeat their answer.

If it did go to a friggin revote (while unconstitutional), what do you think the voter turnout would be? about 95\%?

Posted by Michael on Nov. 09 2000,22:27

quote:
Originally posted by askheaves:
If it did go to a friggin revote (while unconstitutional), what do you think the voter turnout would be? about 95\%?

The turnout would be huge, because everyone realizes now that their vote does count. But a decision to revote is a decision for Gore.

Bush ahead 225, 65/67 reporting...

Posted by reman on Nov. 10 2000,00:04

american politics suck ass...unfortunately who wins has a big effect on other countries...so i say to you

U.S. of A. - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 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and YUO=FAG0t

Posted by PersonGuy on Nov. 10 2000,02:13

^
|
|
(cr0! EDIT THAT!!)

Where'd your sunglasses go Hellraiser?

Well, personally I'm happy bout that reman. More than half of our voters are idiots, and the less their vote effects me the better.

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<P:\>erson\Guy.exe -PersonGuy *pERSONgUY.cfg
< http://www.personguy.com >

Posted by Michael on Nov. 10 2000,02:15

quote:
Originally posted by reman:
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

Could you please get rid of that? I hate horizontal scrolling. And I'm sure everyone else agrees with me on that.

Bush ahead 229, 68/69 reporting.

Posted by Jynx on Nov. 10 2000,02:17

Oh, good post reman, real intelligent.

So, tell me again, why are you blaming the U.S. because your own politicians are a whole bunch of lemmings, hmmm?

I am so friggin' mad about this recount nonsense, I'm about ready to start something in Rants about it, if someone hasn't beaten me to it. Sigh.

Oh, btw--Bush ahead by 229 votes, 66 of 67 done.

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--Jynx

"If it's not one thing, it's two."

This message has been edited by Jynx on November 09, 2000 at 09:19 PM

Posted by hair on Nov. 10 2000,03:57

quote:
Originally posted by Rhydant:
i still think its really funny that Bush cant finish a sentence without studdering or having to re-phrase. heheehhehee

and i still think its funny that you can't finish a sentence without spelling all the words correctly. hehehee

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 10 2000,10:17

That's no indication of intelligence. Some of the most intelligent people in history have had speech impediments or even been unable to speak.

And my sunglasses got chipped so I couldn't wear them until I got them repaired.

The AP is now reporting a 327 vote lead for Bush, but that is highly unofficial, and according to a person who was actually involved in the recount, the lead is closer to 1700 votes. I don't know who to believe, I think it's pointless to say or project anything until we hear the certified results as of the 17th, which is only a week away.

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Posted by fatbitch on Nov. 10 2000,11:16

i agree totally reman, i hate the way american politics effects here so much... it just plain sux!

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"i was born without any nads, so i guess like, my kids wont have nads either" - Beavis

Metal/Electronic/Ambient etc..
< http://www.mp3.com/fatbitch >

Posted by kai on Nov. 10 2000,14:47

ok then, well if you hate how ours is sooo much. why don't you tell us how it should be.

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I don't need a compass to tell me what time the wind blows

Posted by whiskey@throttle on Nov. 10 2000,18:43

That 327 number was bullshit.

quote:
NPR
An unofficial tally by The Associated Press of the recount in Florida's 67 counties showed the Texas governor with a 327-vote lead over the vice president in the state whose 25 electoral votes will determine the next president. State officials said their recount showed Bush leading by 960 votes with 66 counties reporting

So it's officially 960 now. Someone ought to kill whomever's at the helm of these "speculating media" types.

Anyhow, what's interesting is the fact that James Baker promised to ask for multiple state recounts on behalf of Bush if Gore continues to contest the Florida victory.

Nausea sets in...

Posted by LazyGit on Nov. 10 2000,18:54

Maybe I'm a bit thick but I can't really see how a recount will help if they just rely solely on the result of that.

They took the first count and it was too close. So they decide to take a second count. Fair enough. But who's to say the second will be anymore accurate? They can't just rely on that can they? Or are they going to average it out or say that because the second one was still close and given to Bush that the first one stands?

And that whole electoral college thing is annoying. Someone can get the majority of votes out of the entire population but still lose by a land slide. I'll explain if you want me to.
cheers

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 10 2000,19:50

if the machine counts arent good enough, a hand count may be requested. a hand count could get a very different number, because people who may have accidently voted twice (palm beach) might have indicated on there who they meant to vote for. the machine cant see that. also, sometimes the holes dont get all the way punched out, which would also mean a handcount could see a vote that a machine count couldnt. i think that once a hand count is done, that will probably be accepted...unless somehow gore manages to sue the U.S. into giving a revote to palm beach...but i dunno, im tired of this shit...

Posted by Michael on Nov. 10 2000,22:10

quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
...unless somehow gore manages to sue the U.S. into giving a revote to palm beach...but i dunno, im tired of this shit...

I second that.

If Gore gets the revote, this election will never end. Bush will dispute it, and start asking for recounts in states that just barely went to Gore. He is threatening to do this in Wisconsin and Iowa already. And once the courts set the dangerous precedent that no election result can be trusted completely, there will be no end to the number of politicians who want to dispute some vote just because they don't like the outcome.

Basically, for the sake of this country as a whole, Gore needs to abide by the recount and not pursue a legal battle. Of course, this would require hime to place the nation's interests above his own and his party's, and I'm not sure if he is capable of doing that. But the fact remains that one of these two men needs to become president, and the transition will go much smoother if the loser supports the winner rather than trying to tear him down.

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 10 2000,23:05

This country was founded on the concept that the good of the one is more important than the good of the all, in so much that by pursuing one's own interest, you do more good for the all than you could ever achieve by worknig directly for the all. (see Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations")

Also, this country is founded on the constitution, and the bill of rights. One of these rights guarantees man's indisputable right to due process under the law. Seeing that election laws were broken in Florida, Gore has every right and reason to pursue his legal rights, just as Bush has the right to ask for other recounts, such as Wisconsin and Iowa.

In short, they are allowed to bitch and moan all they want. We may not like it, but that's the way the electoral college works. If Gore is really causing trouble by following his rights, he may inadvertently change the electoral system, even if he loses. I'm sure everyone will agree that we don't want to go through this again.

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 11 2000,00:24

quote:
Originally posted by Bozeman:
Seeing that election laws were broken in Florida, Gore has every right and reason to pursue his legal rights, just as Bush has the right to ask for other recounts, such as Wisconsin and Iowa.

Excuse me, but no election laws were broken. There have been many allegations of irregularities in the election which probably occur in many elections, and the only reason such a big deal is being made about it is that the margin of error is the same or greater than the margin separating the two candidates. To say that election laws were broken shows a gross misunderstanding of election laws. There is no law against there being problems in elections. The questionable ballot was not illegal, and from what I can see is only marginably questionable. The whole Idea of a revote and multiple recounts is unconstitutional and not called for by laws or even the principles this country was based on.

Another thing that should be considered is that when the candidates chose to run for president, they gave up their rights to look after their own interests, and agreed to pursue the course they believe is best for the country. At this point, the best thing for the country would be to end this and end it soon. You might disagree with that, but I'm sure the American public in general and even the founding fathers would agree that presidents and presidential candidates must put the good of the country above their own personal desires and what they think is good for them when necessary.

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Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 11 2000,00:43

Uh, Hellraiser, have you been watching CNN? They said Florida ballot law 101B was broken, because 101B specifies a format that was not followed. The correct format has all the punch holes off to the right, not staggered in the center. Before you accuse someone of misunderstanding the law, you should understand it yourself.

Also, the candidates should not give up their personal view for the good of the country. They should be running because they genuinely believe that THEIR view is the best. That's how it's supposed to work. (operative word being "supposed")

Posted by fatbitch on Nov. 11 2000,02:16

quote:
Originally posted by kai:
ok then, well if you hate how ours is sooo much. why don't you tell us how it should be.

i didnt say i hate your politics, i said i hate OUR (i.e australian) politics cause everone here wants to be so damn american. im not saying theres anything wrong with americans, but i'm sure you wouldnt like it if you were losing your national identity to australia

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"i was born without any nads, so i guess like, my kids wont have nads either" - Beavis

Metal/Electronic/Ambient etc..
< http://www.mp3.com/fatbitch >

Posted by Michael on Nov. 11 2000,05:57

According to what I heard, that figure of 327 isn't even the official count, it's just the AP's estimate. Yes, that's right, another estimate. We all know how far those can be trusted, especially from the Media. In fact, from what I've heard Florida hasn't even reported the results for all the counties yet.

Is it just me, or does it seem like this whole election is being purposefully planned to be as interesting to the people (and thus as useful for the Media) as possible? All this business with the estimates that they treat like solid facts, bringing in new counts every hour when in fact Florida hasn't released any such figures, trumping up these claims of missing ballots and so forth - it all seems like just a good way for the Media to keep everyone interested. The real story is probably much different from what we've heard, but what we're told isn't the truth, it's just what the Media feels will be the most photogenic.

It's almost as bad as what's going on in Israel... most people don't have any clue what the story is about that, at least not in the US, because our Media puts such a huge spin on it...

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 11 2000,10:03

quote:
Originally posted by Bozeman:
Uh, Hellraiser, have you been watching CNN? They said Florida ballot law 101B was broken, because 101B specifies a format that was not followed. The correct format has all the punch holes off to the right, not staggered in the center. Before you accuse someone of misunderstanding the law, you should understand it yourself.

Actually I've been watching MSNBC and FOX news since I don't get CNN. According to their sources, the Palm Beach ballot was not a direct violation of the 101B since the specification was simply that the candidates be listed in order of majority in the primaries, and by observation it is speculative to say that the ballot does not comply with that rule. In most legal documents where there are two columns, the left column is read straight down first, then the right column, making the ballot correctly organized, and the reason they had it straddle the voting pin holes was so they could make the presidential names bigger to help people read it. The ballot was approved by an election committee made up of both Republicans and Democrats, and published in local papers, nothing was mentioned about it being confusing until after the vote was tallied. Thus there was no direct violation, and most likely no intended violation of any voting laws, and no real grounds for a revote or multiple hand recounts which are likely to introduce as much or more human error in the results as there was machine error in the previous results.

Do you really think on top of that that Gore believes right now that an endless legal struggle over the votes in florida will be best for the country? I don't. I think he would agree that the best way would be to accept the final recount tally no matter which way it goes as of the 17th when all ballots including absentee ones have been counted. If he is not selfless enough to put whats best for the country above his own desire to win, he does not belong in office. My opinion? Sure! But not an unconstitutional one or an invalid one.

So in closing I'd have to say that while both candidates are behaving in a somewhat uncalled for fashion, I least like Gore's campaign's insistence on multiple recounts and legal actions. I think right now the best thing they can do is wait till the certified results, and if it shows Gore in the lead, take the presidency. If not, concede, which will make Gore the hero and set him up well for a victory in 2004 should he decide to run. (the "I won the popular, but conceded the presidency to uphold our constitution. I'm a good guy" campaign.)

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 11 2000,13:38

i really hate to say it, but i think more people need to follow buchanans example (oh gosh, did i really just write that?). he has stated that he doesnt believe that 19000 people really accidently voted for gore when they meant to vote for him, and that we should be grown up about this and just give the votes to gore. we know those votes were for gore (some of us may not like it, but we know it) and it would save us all a lot of time and trouble if we could just accept it.

Posted by Michael on Nov. 11 2000,16:46

Hellraiser: Very well put. I agree with you completely. If Gore really did have the best interests of the country in mind, he wouldn't be threatening the entire election system just for the sake of ensuring himself victory.

I would add that there are several rather dangerous things going on at the moment in this election. First of all, we are setting a very bad precedent, and looking very bad in the eyes of the rest of the world. Furthermore, a vote this close shows that the only way to please the majority of the people is to address the concerns of both the Democrats and the Republicans, and this can be done only if the two parties are reconciled now rather than splitting the country apart over the presidency.

This is probably well known by now, but New Mexico is having to do a recount too, and Bush is threatening to ask for a recount in Iowa and Wisconsin too. The fact that the candidates are disputing other states which are not enough alone to win the election shows what their strategy may be: if Florida is tied up in legal battles and is still undecided when the Electoral College meets in December, it will meet without Florida and the candidate with more votes from the other states will win. Thus, the strategy could come down to a waiting game, but a waiting game which will leave the country in chaos.

Posted by Michael on Nov. 11 2000,18:01

quote:
Originally posted by Bozeman:
Also, some argue that Gore should cede so that the system is not destroyed. If the system is destroyed over a simple recount, GOOD!

It's not the recount that will destroy the system, it's these legal battles and the attempt to get a revote. Both of them set precedents which would result in all future elections being gridlocked in exactly this same manner. Seeing the confusion that has been caused here may be good for the country, but at some point enough is enough. Gore and Bush are quite capable of carrying on this battle for weeks, if not months, and while that is happening our country will hang in uncertainty. The President elect would normally already be planning out his presidency now. Instead, both candidates are fighting legal battles to try to bend the system to serve their own agendas. I'm a Democrat, I voted Gore, I want very much to see him win, but not if he has to tear down our government to do it.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 11 2000,18:18

its not to serve their agendas, its to serve the people who voted for them. they each seem to believe they have the right to the presidency because they think more people voted for them. thats why their doing it, not necessarily for themselves, but to please the people who voted for them...or else nader and buchanan and all them would have started demanding some recounts too...i agree with bozeman. its like when youve written a program, and halfway through beta tesing it completely falls apart. which is a better solution: try and patch it up and hope it doesnt crash, or toss all the code and do it right from the start? the latter will take longer, but it will probably make a more stable program. the same can apply to the voting system. i personally think a popular vote might be a better choice, but if the electoral vote isnt working, then why the fuck should we deal with it?

Posted by Michael on Nov. 11 2000,18:46

quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
thats why their doing it, not necessarily for themselves, but to please the people who voted for them.

Yeah right. These are politicians that you're talking about here.

I agree with your "beta testing" comparison, but if you are testing a program and discover that it has some memory hole or bug that's causing it to wreck your entire computer, would you go on with the testing to see how bad the problem could get, or would you immediately stop testing and get to work on rebuilding the program?

Posted by askheaves on Nov. 11 2000,23:33

All I can say is that the next election is going to be PERFECT. We've got four years, and some company is going to earn a shitload on this single vendor contract. Hmm... My friend and I are considering making the perfect voting system... anyone want to be a millionaire too?

Posted by askheaves on Nov. 11 2000,23:50

Just because I feel like starting a flame war, this is one of my theories:

There are two types of democrats:
- Those who want to help out the less fortunate.
- Those who are unfortunate and want help.

Am I wrong here? I'm republican, and I'm not less fortunate. I'm mostly fortunate at this point, but don't have the ability to give much away (6 out of 10 on the fortunate scale). I'd like to keep my shit, and I'd like other folks to be at least a 4 out of 10 on the fortunate scale, with those really trying hard to be a 10 out of 10.

Posted by kai on Nov. 12 2000,00:55

quote:
Originally posted by fatbitch:
i didnt say i hate your politics,

sorry, apparently I had a brief spout of dyslexia

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I don't need a compass to tell me what time the wind blows

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 12 2000,05:20

The hand-recount is underway. I don't think the validity of the actual ballots will be contested, even though they were skating on thin ice from 101B.

I agree with those angry at the wait. But I'd rather wait untill January than have a President who was elected because no one cared enough to find the real winner.

Also, some argue that Gore should cede so that the system is not destroyed. If the system is destroyed over a simple recount, GOOD! Let's completely destroy it and rebuild it so that this sort of problem never happens again. Gore may be whining, but if it ends up assisting future elections, It's better than if he did what was deemed to be best at the time.

Posted by kuru on Nov. 13 2000,16:19

well basically the democrats just want to keep counting until one of those counts finally says 'oh, ok, gore got more votes.'

then what? stop?

we had the count. then under florida law, a recount. bush came out on top. we still have to count the absentees. if he comes out on top after the absentees, then it should be it. over. enough.

and these fucking media people are doing nothing but causing more problems with all their unofficial this, unofficial that, speculate speculate speculate. they should all shut the fuck up till the 17th, and then report ONCE AND FOR ALL, the final god damn number.

that's all i got to say bout that.

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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin

Posted by whiskey@throttle on Nov. 13 2000,20:53

Perhaps the real question is, does Al Gore want to be president because he truly believes he is the best choice in regards to the welfare of this country? Or is he just egotistically desperate to go down in the books as the next President?

I'm feeling cynical: I'll opt for the latter.

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 13 2000,21:43

Neither Al nor W has the best interests of the country in mind. They are both bought and paid for by corporations.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 13 2000,22:28

bullshit. no one is bought by anyone. the whole point of being president, is that you believe you are the best man for the job. and thats how it should be. would you want a president who was constantly questioning himself? no. nothing would ever get done, the country would be well, not chaotic, but definetly abnormal...thats why whoever wins wont get much done, theyll know that there isnt a real majority of the country behind them, and so they wont do anything too drastic, so while it shouldnt be a factor, theyll want to be re-elected in 2004...yeah, i keep looking at other things, so i forgot my point...see if you can figure it out...10 points to the winner...

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 13 2000,22:30

Ah Sithiee, what color is the wool over your eyes?

Posted by reman on Nov. 14 2000,01:10

quote:
Originally posted by kai:
ok then, well if you hate how ours is sooo much. why don't you tell us how it should be.

ok, in australia we use a preferential voting system, which is vastly superior. Basically you vote by numbering boxes 1 through to how many candidates you have (or less if you really want to).

then we count everyone's votes who have a 1 next to their name, if one person has captured more than 50\% of these votes then they win...yay!

if however no one has 50\% we eliminate the candidate with the lowest number of votes and redistribute their votes according the number 2 vote on those ballots.

We continue the same way until we only have two candidates and the rest have been eliminated. this means the one of the candidates must have 50\% of the vote and they win.

This eliminates all this bullshit about nader voters wasting their vote, and the buchanon voters in that florida county going booo we didnt vote that way.

any more questions?

reman

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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 14 2000,05:51

i think after a handcount that it should be left alone....and i bet that it will be....but i dunno...

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 14 2000,09:00

Sounds like the Aussies have something good going for them. Mabey we can take a lesson.

Posted by Bozeman on Nov. 14 2000,18:33

The other end of my what?

Posted by reman on Nov. 14 2000,23:54

here are two pages from a book for primary school kids (aka elementary school i think)

regards, reman

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People ask me to fix their computer. I do in 5 seconds.
They say "You think your good don't you".
I say "I know I'm good". People always ask stupid questions.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 15 2000,05:28

thats pretty good...cause then when you dislike other candidates, but you like more than one...you can still put down some and pull up some others...or somethin....

and bozeman, there isnt any, but i bet nader is on the other end of yours.

Posted by askheaves on Nov. 16 2000,02:01

If nobody thinks that this recounting thing is getting out of hand and won't set a precedent... curse you, foo.

7 months ago (the April elections), I saw some VERY close local lections while living in Milwaukee. I didn't see one election go to a recount, and I imagine that this sort of thing wasn't common anywhere else either.

Even today, here in Pima County (Tucson, AZ), there are recounts going on in local elections. The ballots are being recounted, and one race is too close to call because the end of the recounts is too tought to call. This will only get worse unless we can figure out how to fix this whole mess that Gore has created. Luckily, the fastest evolving thrust in America, technology, may just be the answer.

Posted by reman on Nov. 16 2000,02:20

ya know i think the presidential election may be just a little more important than local elections.

Posted by askheaves on Nov. 16 2000,03:44

The point is, reman, that this sort of thing probably wasn't as common before this election (please correct me if i'm wrong!!!). It shows that it isn't just an isolated incident, and that the whole notion of an election is in question, even in situations where the popular vote is the only vote.

Side note: did anybody see South Park tonight? They must have reworked the episode during the last week (similiar to when the Elian deal was going on) because Ike was in Kindergarten, they had a class president election. They went into the whole recount thing, the absent student vote, and the lawyers (plus Rosie O'Donnell). Truly adds more to my respect for Trey Parker and Matt Stone.

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 16 2000,11:24

I don't know, all I know is that I'm sick of all this rhetoric. As far as I know, the only time that a hand count is called for in Florida law is when the machine count is proven to be grossly inaccurate due to mechanical failure, and as far as I know that has not happened in any of the counties where they are doing a third count by hand. In most counties, the recount did not significantly change the vote, indicating that the first count was fairly accurate.

I think it would be perfectly fair and just to both parties if the hand counts were not accepted, and the ballot is certified when the overseas ballots are tabulated. Regardless of which way it goes, that should be the end. If both candidates accept the official tally on Saturday, it would greatly increase my respect for both candidates, something which has been slipping with all this legal wrangling.

The way the Gore campaign is coming across is "we believe that we won florida, and we're gonna keep recounting till we get a result we like." It is not at all like "it has come to our attention that the first two counts were grossly inaccurate, and out of fairness to the American people, we would like a statewide recount to show who did indeed win Florida." If the latter were the view that was coming across, I'd be all for the recount. But to single out four democratic counties, and say that they should decide the election is wrong. Either the whole fucking state gets counted by hand, or none of it does. What makes the hand count more accurate than a machine count? They have people holding ballots up to the light to see if there is invisible ink marking which candidate the voter wanted. Excuse me, but that's fucked up! If it's that hard to tell, the vote should be discarded. It is the voter's responsibility, and I stand by this regardless of the situation, to be aware of the issues at hand, make sure they vote correctly, and stand by the official vote tallies after election. And there is no place for a revote after election day, because voters have been unduely influenced by media coverage of the election, and most likely some will change their vote. The election day vote stands.

I hope Gore's campaign sees the light and decides to drop all this endless recounting. At this point I don't care which one wins, but the way Gore has been acting appears to me as childish and whiny, two qualities that I don't want to see in an American president because I think it weakens our country for it's leader to be seen as such.

Remember that phone call? Bush: "You do what you have to do." Gore: "There's no need for you to get snippy about it!" Remember the first debate? I'll bet you that's how he said it too.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Posted by jim on Nov. 16 2000,11:43

What is starting to piss me off, is they want to count votes that are indented, but no perferation was broken, or even the ones where all but one of the perferations were broken. According to the voting instructions on the ballot, those votes don't count. The instruction were to make sure that to hole was completely through and to remove the insert that had been punched. If you didn't follow those directions, then fuck you! Your vote doesn't count. Tough Shit, move along. I don't believe there should be a recount, but if there is going to be one, it should definitely be the whole state!

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Posted by Crafty Butcher on Nov. 16 2000,14:21

i hate to sound old fashioned, but what's wrong with putting an x in box? possibly save you all this constitutional heartache. ballot papers so unclear that ppl rn't sure who they voted for??!! i mean really. we're all just watching you over here going 'what are you doing?' ok democracy's not perfect, but it's somehow been turned into a farce...i read this
< http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=10084 >

and started wondering, hang on, what if it's this inaccurate every time?

Posted by whiskey@throttle on Nov. 16 2000,14:38

Not to mention the element of Democratic despair continually oozing its way into the media platter since election night. I�m still skeptical about how many of these Floridians really had a problem with their vote, and how many just want to make a fuss to abet Gore�s victory. Every day, more and more old codgers seem to come out of the woodwork, rattling their dentures about supposed problems. It's hip, it's chic, and it's definitely newsworthy to say your vote was erroneously botched in one stupid way or another.

Heck, I saw a guy on TV who was crying because the presidency was called to Bush on the morning of the 8th. Hey man, elect frickin� Harry Carey for President...I�ll probably move, but I ain�t gonna cry. Behavior like this is characteristic of a twisted, desperation m�lange: that tender blend of alarming zealotry and fanatic struggles towards unattainable goals.

And Hellraiser is right, in that all this media coverage is influencing the country and changing opinions one way or the other. There is no "popular vote of no-confidence" for the American Presidency. We vote once every four years, and that is that. We�ve derogated so far since the 7th, all thanks to this wave of ever-increasing hype about voting injustice, that opinions are clouded.

Hand Count: Dumb.
Revote: Stupid.

Posted by kuru on Nov. 16 2000,16:28

i don't recall if it's been said here before,
but i agree with a statement that observer made to me irl the other day.

"nixon showed more class in 1960 when it was proven that even DEAD people were voting than gore is showing now."

credit observer for that one, but he is right.

thanks for a good line, dude.

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kuru
'sex is one of the most beautiful and natural things that money can buy' - steve martin

Posted by Hellraiser on Nov. 16 2000,19:56

quote:
Originally posted by Crafty Butcher:
i read this
< http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=10084 >
and started wondering, hang on, what if it's this inaccurate every time?

I read that too, and the author of that article has as much bias as anyone else (including me probably), choosing selective quotes and case samples to indirectly favor prolonging the recounts and a Gore win. For instance, what the hell does a Texas law passed during G.W.'s term as governer have to do with recounts in Florida? Nothing. And I looked up the law that the author is refering to, and it definitely does not in its entirity rule that manual recounts are preferable to machine recounts. But that is beside the point. Florida law calls for all recounts to be final by one week after election, and has no provisions for there to be exceptions to that rule. In our democratic republic, laws that have been passed must be followed, regardless of personal bias or how well you like the outcome. If you have a situation which you feel the law does you an injustice, you may try to change the law or pass a new one for future reference, but you still should abide by the law as of the event which you felt was an injustice. Otherwise, that makes laws the equivalent of guidelines that only need to be followed if you want to, and cannot be properly enforced and upheld. Such a precedent is extremely disturbing to me, and shakes my faith in democracy. That judges would even consider ruling that this election calls for an exception to the statewide laws that were in force and unquestioned at the time all polls closed on November 7th makes me wonder how much other shaky rulings etc. have been passed in our country, and how valid our system of judicial precedents is.

Sure some may say things need to be changed, and I'm all for things being reviewed and changes suggested, but to apply those changes to this election is not just and right. You cannot say that because one candidate won the popular vote and might lose the electoral, that the electoral system and the processes by which it work including state laws regarding elections needs to be ignored in this case. No matter how you look at it, it undermines the power and enforceability of all procedures and rules regarding elections throughout the country.

And the whole revote thing is out. I hope to god that if things go south for Gore he is enough of a person to not even consider asking for a revote. A revote in one county to affect the state's outcome is not right, and a revote in one state to affect the country's outcome is not right, and atop that, a fair revote anywhere now would be impossible due to media influence and the knowledge of the results of the election.

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Just your generic meaningless signature. Mix with 2 quarts water and stir till evenly coated.

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 16 2000,22:24

on the one hand, it would be nice for the people who fucked up their ballots to be allowed to fix it, but a revote cant be done, because people might vote differently, nader supports might go gore, people who forgot to vote before might come out, its just not gonna happen. however, and hand count is very likely to be more accurate than a machine count, because a hand count can see lots of votes that a machine cant. if the chad isnt completely gone, but its still sorta hanging there, its is obvious who the vote was for, and so it is fair to award that vote to the candidate it was for. granted, it was pretty underhanded for the democrats to choose only 4 counties, but its not like bush didnt have a chance (there is a stated 72 hour period in which recounts are allowed to be requested), so whining about it now wont do any good. and if bush legitimately won, he should have no reason to request an injunction to prevent that from being made certain.

but the good things are, its almost guaranteed that every state will have better defined laws about this from now on, people will probably do their votes right, and maybe the government would help fund getting the states decent ballot machines...

Posted by jim on Nov. 17 2000,11:16

quote:
Originally posted by Sithiee:
if the chad isnt completely gone, but its still sorta hanging there, its is obvious who the vote was for, and so it is fair to award that vote to the candidate it was for.

Actually that wouldn't be fair. It clearly states that you must remove the chad before submitting you ballot or your ballot is invalid.

Same as when you took tests on ScanTron sheets in high school. Fill in circles completely. Completely erase any changes you make. Or the question will be counted wrong. I guarentee that teachers don't go back and hand grade ScanTron tests.

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jim
Beauty is in the eye of the Beer Holder
< Brews and Cues >

Posted by Michael on Nov. 17 2000,18:58

quote:
Originally posted by jim:
Same as when you took tests on ScanTron sheets in high school. Fill in circles completely. Completely erase any changes you make. Or the question will be counted wrong. I guarentee that teachers don't go back and hand grade ScanTron tests.

Well, the major difference here is that unlike the scantron test, you cannot "erase completely" on a ballot except by getting a new one. And as for manually recounting scantrons, this does actually happen. In fact, if you think that your grade on the SAT is not accurate you are allowed to request a manual check of that grade (for a fee, of course). Furthermore, scantron machines, and other computerized counting systems, may be very close to being perfect, but they all do make mistakes. On the other hand, so do people.

On the issue of a revote, it's clear that such a thing would be even more unfair than the injustice that it's meant to counter. The only even marginally "fair" thing would be to have the entire United States revote, and I doubt very much that that is going to happen, especially considering how much time it would take.

So how should we decide this? I am tempted to go with New Mexico's method. By law in New Mexico, according to CNN.com, a tied race is to be decided by a "mutually agreed upon game of chance." Apparently, this usually takes the form of a single hand of five-card poker.

Then again, Bush would probably argue that he had a huge disadvantage there... Al has such a great poker face...

Posted by Sithiee on Nov. 18 2000,02:01

if i have a problem with my scantron tests, i always take them to my teachers, and they always fix it if its wrong. and it would be unfair for the entire US to vote, because so many people would change considering what just happened, not to mention a lot of people who didnt show up before would have, it would just be wrong to do it.

and a game of chance is the most retarded way to elect a leader ever. ever read gullivers travels? the method for selecting the leaders of the lilliputions was better, and it was a mockery in the first place. that at least required some skill, granted, not a useful one for office, but a game of chance is not what is needed.