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Forum: The Classroom
Topic: Meds and Heads
started by: Pickle Therapy Lady

Posted by Pickle Therapy Lady on Jan. 31 2002,00:34

Anyone around here who's ever had to take antidepressants knows what some of the side effects can be. Primarily, sexual side effects, which sucks (or doesn't depending on how you read into that). Well, when you're having serious problems upstairs, you don't tend to worry so much about sex anyway so who cares. The problem is when you start stablizing and start MISSING sex.
That's where I am now. That's why I'm back in a shrink's office. So between me and the quack, we decide to start backing me off my antidepressant (Serzone). Alone. In other words, not starting on a different med as I'm coming off the current one. That's great for the obvious clarity of results, but it sucks for the side effects.
It's hard to keep a smile on my face when I have panic attacks and continuously worry about work. When I feel like I'd rather be alone and NOT like putting forth the effort to explain myself to my confused husband. Hell, when I don't even feel like I can explain myself TO myself. When I catch thoughts of how incompetent I am drifting through my head and feelings of wanting to just get out of everything I'm involved in.
I hate work. Even more so, I think I hate putting on a fake happy face for those who I work WITH. I just can't take trying to explain myself to these people over and over and OVER again.
It's too bad that it took meds to get me thinking and feeling for the most part, like a normal person and NOT depressed and stressed all the damned time. I just want to be able to feel that way w/out relying on a pill once, twice, eight hundred fifty-two times a damned day. I guess that's why I'm tormenting myself by backing off my current meds. Even if there might be a light at the end of this hellacious tunnel, the process I have to go through to get there doesn't make it very easy to be optimistic. Woah is me. Bleh.
[/mindless rambling]. I rarely post topics anyway. I just needed to unload. You can move along now. Thanks for the "ear" if you read all this crap and sorry to have added more crying to the long list of issues we've all been seeming to have lately. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day.

Posted by Jimi on Jan. 31 2002,00:46

First of all I read it all and I feel for you, if it makes you feel better somebody once said to me that it's always the clever thinkers who it gets to, so at least you are clever.

I have been there, I used to analise everything. I always used to be thinking about really quite deep issues and knowing I couldn't do anything about it made me go a bit off on one. I started drinking heavily to combat it, I would very rarely not be drunk. I neglected my friends and I owe a lot to the only one person who noticed something was wrong, he knows who he is.

Also I know a girl at college, she is and can only be descirbed as a thinker. I really don't know alot about what is going on with her at the minute as I haven't seen her in quite a while but last time I saw her she didn't seem to sharp.

It's all part of life and if you need to just rant to someone ever feel free to e-mail me, I will happily read them all as I have too much time now anyway. I'm happy to listen/Read

carlmattock@bigfoot.com

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 31 2002,01:01

I know when I was using antidepressants for 3 years I had no sex drive at all. I was in the middle of my teenage (15-17) years the time when you are supposed to be full of hormones and be completely well for a lack of a better word horny. Even now after being off for two years I still have almost no sex drive, so I don’t know what this means but hopefully you will get back to normal after some time.

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,01:59

I feel for you PTL. I have to take Paxil for dysthymia (chronic, low-grade, reoccurring depression) and I know about the sexual side effects.

Here's what has helped :

1. medication holidays. I know with Paxil, I can skip a day and not really feel any worse.

2. Adding a small dose of Welbutrin (buproprion) to an SSRI like Serzone has helped a *lot* of people in the sex dept. while still maintaing the benefit of an SSRI. Welbutrin is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, and an orgasm is basically a dopamine flood

3. Switch medications. All the SSRI's have some sexual side effects, but they vary. On Prozac I couldn't get it up. Paxil, on the other hand, gives me rock-hard ragers, it's just hard to finish what I started sometimes

Posted by Pickle Therapy Lady on Jan. 31 2002,02:18

Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 31 Jan. 2002,00:59)

DSL...Thanks for the suggestions.
I can't take holidays because Serzone is some crazy shit...it took nearly 3 months for me to get rid of the suicidal thoughts, headaches, and (to keep it non disgusting) stomach issues so I don't DARE cold turkey this stuff for even a day or dose.
The Welbutrin is a possiblity as well as changing meds. If lowering my dose of Serzone doesn't help (I'm backing off of it over 3-4 weeks time) then we're going to change me to something else.
The REALLY fucked up part about the sexual side effects is that they are the reason I'm on Serzone and not Effexor XR. That was why I switched to Serzone. It worked SURPRISINGLY well at first. As in, I wanted sex more than before I was ever on antidepressants and the orgasms were un-fucking-believable. BUT! I was still falling asleep at work and still occassionally depressed a bit so my dose got upped again. This time too high. That's where everything went to shit. Backing down on the dose didn't help at all...my sex drive just KEPT dropping off. Now I don't want sex EVER and the few times I've "convinced myself" that I did (for my husband's benefit) there was not even a glimmer of an orgasm in sight.
THAT is why I'm doing all this.
If getting off Serzone altogether doesn't leave me a depressed puddle of nerves and DOES leave me with a sex drive then I'll be happy. If I'm no better off, it's new meds here I come.
What a pain in the ass it all is. Really.
Thanks for the info about how Welbutrin works w/Serzone btw, that helped make it a bit clearer.

Posted by Vigilante on Jan. 31 2002,02:59

Huh. I've been on effexor for months, and am as horny as ever (not that it does me any good...

). Added welbutrin recently (since the effexor wasn't doing anything else, either), and I'm still using up porn at an alarming rate.

I still don't have reason to put much stock in any of these, but I have to say to just hold on and give them a fair chance. I'd also say that switching off something as brutal as serzone is for you would be a worthwhile move.

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 31 2002,03:53

Efexor was the only drug that worked for i tried like 5 dif drugs, i had to stop not becasue i was better but becasue my liver is messed up. I was diagnosed with dysthymia and i still have it considering it doesn't go away. But i am doing alright.

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,03:55

Just about everyone I've met who's taken effexor says the same thing : it works for awhile, and then it gives up. The doctor tries increasing the dosage, which just makes the patienty shaky, sleepy, or both. Looking at its profile, I'd guess that it wouldn't do all that much good for anxiety/panic disorders, and could possibly make them worse. It increases both serotonin, which calms you, and norepinephrine which does the opposite. (Norepinephrine does much the same thing as epinephrine, which you probably know better as "adrenaline.")

I know a couple people who have been on Wellbutrin for many years, and they all say it still works. Wellbutrin's primary effect is on dopamine, which is involved in fine motor movement and seems to act as a feeling amplifier. It's probably great for depression without anxiety. Plus it's a phenethylamine... Alexander Shulgin, the God of Hallucinogens, wrote an entire book about them called Phenethylamines I Have Known and Loved

The SSRI's Paxil and Prozac both seem to keep working for years. Serotonin is involved in a whole slew of things; one of them seems to be carrying a signal that says "all is well," which causes you to relax. That's why it's so effective for depression with or without anxiety; you're too relaxed to panic or be sad. The downside is that it can make you a little *too* relaxed. During sex, the nerves responsible for sexual pleasure and orgasm simply can't generate a strong enough signal to override the command to relax... that's where Wellbutrin comes in. It boosts your dopamine levels enough to allow some things to override the effect of the SSRI.

Several people I've spoken with have said that they found Paxil to have fewer sexual side effects than Prozac, but they still have them.

Finally - remember that antidepressants take their own sweet time to really work their magic. I've been taking Paxil for over a year now and am still improving... it takes a long time to get used to living outside of the prison that depression locks you in!

Posted by Vlamor on Jan. 31 2002,04:01

Reading you all I sympathize, but on the other hand I'm very surprised so many people take meds. I've never took meds in my entire life. Well I did a lot of acids, but it doesn't count. Anyway I didn't know meds were so popular. Do you think it's the right way to go when you are depressed? I'm curious...

When I feel depressed or when I feel nobody understand me, I exercise. That way the pain in my muscles take over the pain in my head.

Posted by Vigilante on Jan. 31 2002,04:55

What you mention, Vlamor, while never trivial, doesn't seem to be of the sort that is always present for almost a decade (and in a critical descent for three years). When it saps away all your internal motivation, only something external will make a difference. Antidepressants aren't the only means around, but are sometimes the only means available.

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,04:59

There's a difference between normal, everyday sadness (which is what most people mean when they say they're "depressed") and biological depression. One big difference is that without medication, I don't just feel down & lonely & like nobody understands me every once in awhile. I feel like that all the time. Exercise helps, I'll agree, but in order to bring me up to "normal" I'd have to be a professional athlete. I am not joking.

With meds, I just take a pill once a day and get on with my life. Besides the sexual problems, the side effects are minor, and research is showing that far from causing long-term damage, they can actually *protect* you from it.

People can argue about the "social implications" all they want, but my responsibility to Society does not include accepting my biologically-determined place within it.

Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 31 2002,06:47

D.S.L is quite right, for example I haven’t been “happy” for more than seconds at a time, I am usually in a state where I have no emotion except sadness. It is very hard for me to be happy, very very hard. Some people think I am some kind of perfectionist or an elitist because I am never happy, in reality I am neither I just have a hard time feeling happy or good.

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,07:38

Quote (ic0n0 @ 30 Jan. 2002,22:47)

Some people think I am some kind of perfectionist or an elitist because I am never happy, in reality I am neither I just have a hard time feeling happy or good.

You have no idea how good it feels to know someone else feels like that too

edited for clarity.

Posted by Pickle Therapy Lady on Jan. 31 2002,07:51

I agree with the identification. It's hard to describe how good it feels to hear someone else say what it's hard for you to put words to. The whole "happiness" factor, I have just perfected the fake-off for work. When I get REALLY bad off though, I can't even put forth the effort to fake happy. I become zombified at that point. I just kinda go through the motions of daily activity.
As far as exercise goes, that takes motivation. Something that is generally ABSENT when someone is depressed. (Which also explains why my house is a wreck and why I'm not cleaning it.)
It's quite hard to explain to someone the difference that meds CAN make if you've never had to go that route. When therapy hasn't cut the mustard and you can't "talk" yourself out of it and neither can anyone else.
And anyway, if it's keeping people non-suicidal and happy and productive, isn't that better than the alternative?

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,22:02

I reopened the thread. Flame on.

Posted by TheTaxMan on Jan. 31 2002,22:24

Enjoy.

It's my opinion, that the Pharmicudical (sic) industry is nothing but one huge hippocracy. Billions of dollars are spent in order to produce new drugs that suppress or help mental illness for extended periods of time. That's great, right? Well, no. Suppression of things is a half way success. Have we cured cancer? No, but we've suppressed it and are still pouring a ton of moeny into research. Mental illness does not have the same case. We pour all the money into making drugs that suppress effects longer and longer and working on ways to cure it. I still think that it's all in how the endocrine system and nervous system are functioning (whether they are malfunctioning from your environment or not). So why, then, are we not making the drugs to fix the problem in the long term. The obvious answer, is becasue people realize if the problem goes away, they don't make any money.

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,22:56

That's a paranoid argument, and a fallacious one. You're overlooking the obvious. Let's say a company comes up with a drug that cures cancer. That company would capture almost 100% of the cancer-treatment market and make the company *very* rich, as well as giving them all the publicity of being The Company That Cured Cancer. The same thing goes for mental illness.

Anyway, there is some very interesting research that shows that rats on Prozac grow new neurons in their brains, specifically in the hippocampus - the area that controls mood and memory. This is significant for two reasons.

1. For decades it's been thought that adult brains are incapable of new growth.

2. The new growth may be the reason that Prozac works. More nerve cells mean a stronger signal. Thus treatment with Prozac may actually permanently fix the biological condition that causes depression if you take it long enough.

By your logic, that means the pharmaceutical company should pull Prozac off the market!

< A Discover article about the research. >

< Another article, with pictures of rat brains. >

Posted by TheTaxMan on Jan. 31 2002,23:39

I'm not (heh) paranoid about it, I just think more money should be into developing drugs that solve the problem.

...And when did I ever say that they should pull things off the market?

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 31 2002,23:58

Pharmaceutical reasearch is *very* expensive. Developing a single new drug can cost hundreds of millions of dollars. The money made on drugs like Prozac fund that development. I guarantee that there are a LOT of people working on finding a cure for all sorts of things, since the pharmaceutical companies stand to benefit from those cures!

Posted by Pickle Therapy Lady on Feb. 01 2002,00:13

You know, I can't help but view antidepressants as basically supplements. Sure it's more complex than that, but when you look at how it acts and compare it to vitamin and mineral supplements, it's virtually the same. It adds something your body is deficient in. Not exactly a "scientific" way of looking at it, but definately a different perspective.

Posted by ic0n0 on Feb. 01 2002,00:16

If it wasn't for my use of these drugs i would most likey be dead.

Posted by Pickle Therapy Lady on Feb. 01 2002,04:34

Well, I'm glad for the drugs then.

Posted by editor on Feb. 01 2002,06:45

Me too. I'm glad you're around!

Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Feb. 01 2002,07:37

Quote (ic0n0 @ 31 Jan. 2002,16:16)

If it wasn't for my use of these drugs i would most likey be dead.

Do you really think so? If I hadn't started Paxil I don't think I'd be dead. I'd just wish I was.

Posted by ic0n0 on Feb. 01 2002,08:13

At the place in my life where i started taking the drugs i was suicidal and i do think they saved my life.

Posted by Wolfguard on Feb. 01 2002,17:36

After my run in with the FUCKING CUNT BITCH FROM HELL i had to take zoloft for a while.

What it did for me was put my brain in a state where i could deal with the problem. I was able to work through things and that was it.

My only sexual side effect was it put my sex drive into OVERDRIVE! The doctor just laughed at me and said i was lucky. So were the girls at the Jester

Good stuff if you need it.

Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Feb. 01 2002,17:40

well for starters taxman there is research going into a cure for cancer and a shit load of other diseases. you seem to make the assumption that because you've seen a few hollywood movies that all phameceutical companies have meetings just to sit around and lauigh maniacally while they press buttons that activate pollution and disease for them to make more money on. the truth is they spend shed loads of money on the simplest of drugs. half of it happens by chance and when they find something that works they sell it. it may not be a cure but if it can helpa problem in some way they put more money into it. and they dont fuck about with risks either. if one of their drugs ends up be lethal or having unforseen circumstances the money they get sued for will drive the entire company into liquidation.

currently there is a drug in testing that can effectively treat ~95% of cancers as the majority of cancers (95%) all work in a similiar way. this drug fits into the molecule where the part of it "causes" cancer and stops it from working. again this was pretty much trial and error as the only thing they knew was that this hole in the cancer cell had to be blocked by something. the amount of combinations that could fit is in the millions and its only with the funding from lesser drugs being sold that this could have been accomplished.

if you knew how little weactually know about chemical interaction then you realise that its not possible to just spend all the moeny on one super drug.

Posted by Vigilante on Feb. 01 2002,20:55

That's why we need to ditch chemical meds and move to nanotech.

Posted by TheTaxMan on Feb. 01 2002,21:41

What started as an innocent reply to this thread (which was not a flame at -fucking- all) apparenlty has driven all of you over the edge for some reason.

Look! I'm not saying drugs are bad. Great, take drugs, I'm glad it makes you a better/happier/whatever person. My point is, that I want to see more research going into finding ways to eliminate mental illness rather than subdue it.

DKB - I don't know where you get off pulling that "you've seen to many movies" bullshit, but I take offense. I also said mental illness was the -opposite- of cancer. I also didn't say I wanted one superdrug. I don't give a shit if they even create a drug to do it. It's my opinion that not enough emphesis is on the solution. I'm not saying anything deragatory to anyone, It's just my opinion. If you don't like my opinion, fine! I don't see why everyone is jumping down my throat. Not like I'm spouting partisan rheotric about the national debt or something...

Posted by Dark Knight Bob on Feb. 01 2002,21:54

sorry taxman if you felt that way. i think i might have taken your point the wrong way.

Posted by veistran on Feb. 05 2002,04:38

Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 30 Jan. 2002,21:58)

Making new drugs is quite possibly the most expensive thing you can do on the planet. The amount of money the companies have to spend to test them before they can even be approved for testing on humans is insane.