Topic: Depressing thoughts and hope.
started by: ic0n0
Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 28 2002,22:39
My thoughts have been rather confused in the past few days and I have been thinking about religion and the afterlife and my own Fate as well as that of my beloved friend. I find myself turning toward the negative thoughts about life. I am a pessimist I always have been, but right now I wish I wasn’t one I honesty want to believe in god and a rational just plan but I cannot accept the idea. I have ranged between atheism and agnosticism for most of my life but I find that I am being even more toward atheism. The recent events in my life haven’t changed my mind about things but have certainly colored my worldview, as one would expect. I want to think that my friend will go to heaven and is in a better place, a place worthy of him but I simply cannot accept that. Of all the possibilities in the universe it is quite possible that a god and an afterlife exist and I hope this is the case for the sake of Alex. But my own views are troubling me if there is no god and no afterlife than the lose of Alex is far greater than it would be otherwise, this possibility is harder to accept then the previous but I fear it is the true one. We will never know what the truth is but I know I am not one to accept faith based purely on it self as proof. I hope I haven’t depressed you all but this was some of the stuff floating around in my head that I needed to express otherwise it would be eating at me. I don’t know what the truth is but there are so many unanswered questions so many doubts so much sadness. I do thank all of you for your concern it has truly touched me and I hope all of you that have or are going to pray for Alex continue to do so, you never know.
Posted by CatKnight on Jan. 28 2002,23:52
I try not to get depressed. I don't have the time or energy to do so. The problem is while I'm at home I don't have anything to do except mope around and make small talk with relatives I've never met before. As soon as I get back to school, I'll have a ton of stuff to do, and life will get back to normal. I'd like to think that's the way my dad would have wanted, to get on with life and be happy.
Posted by Anztac on Jan. 28 2002,23:54
I'm afraid I don't know anything to say to cheer you up my friend... Just figure that Alex will finnally be decided on what religion to believe in, right? I hope you cheer up man =/
Posted by Non on Jan. 28 2002,23:58
I'm too shallow to stay depressed for too long.
Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 28 2002,23:59
Anztac that would be the worst, he was an atheist.
Posted by Anztac on Jan. 29 2002,00:21
....oh, i'm sorry 
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 29 2002,00:47
ic0n0, everything you wrote are things I think about a lot as well. All that thinking finally led me to a modified form of Buddhism. I have my doubts about reincarnation, but I am with Buddha when he says that individual souls are temporary things. If that depresses you. remember that we are all a small piece of one very large, very permanent, very impressive thing, and we will eventually return to it.In a very real sense, your friend has joined with everything and everywhere... he hasn't so much gone away as changed his mode of existence.
Contemplate this while looking at a picture of a galaxy, and you might see, as I do, that becoming part of THAT is way cooler than Heaven.
Hope this helps keep your spirits up.
Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 29 2002,01:49
I do believe more of Buddhist philosophy, I can see nature at work and I see things die and things are born. That gives me hope, that when I am gone life will continue in one form or another. I am going to be cremated when I die and my ashes spread on a tree the thought of that makes me happy. Alex is being cremated after the funeral I am not sure where the ashes will go I am not sure but I hope they spread them over something he loved or a place he loved. Seeing life reborn is enough for me, I really have never needed to believe in god to make me complete. If ones faith determines one’s fate in the afterlife I think Alex would be reincarnated as a butterfly. No one ever expects the butterfly.
Posted by editor on Jan. 29 2002,01:52
damn, DSL is a tough act to follow.I generally agree with his world view, although I have a sneaky suspicion that "enlightened" souls are permanent. What is enlightenment? I'm not sure, but if someone says they are, they're NOT.
Back to topic. Ic0n0, please accept that you may be too young to make life-changing choices right now. Please don't be rash, especially when your browser's stability has been shaken *hard* recently.
Your duty as a human is to ask questions; only humans have been granted that ability.
What is life? Is there a God? Why are we here? What is our purpose?
I think it was the painter Gaughin who made these questions popular. Guess what? There is no single answer to those, except for the God question. And I'm not telling.
To find your own personal answers, you have to live your life; what does that mean?
Activity, Desire, Questioning. Find or create a purpose for your life or you are lost. Your purpose is necessary to continue living; without it, you are a zombie walking around, doing what it's told, maintaining meaningless habits.
With a purpose, with Desire, with activity, you will be living Life to it's fullest. I promise you that.
What purpose, you ask? Answer; anything you like. That's why we are all born with different faces; different fingerprints; to remind us we are individuals. We are all similar, but never identical. I have twin brothers, and I've never had a problem telling them apart. We are all individuals with a different take on life. We were made that way on purpose.
Personally, I believe, but do not know this;
Every single person's experience and soul is recorded somewhere in the mind of the creator. Whether or not they all continue to exist in an afterlife is not known to me. I know that some do, but the percentage is low. I don't know for a fact that I will continue "my" conciousness after death.
I believe that you are extremely depressed just now, and you ARE questioning the big ideas. Questions are always good! Your recent experience and feelings of guilt may color your perception of the answers, however.
Guilt is a useless emotion. All it does is take away any joy of whatever experience you may be having. Guilt tells you that you are a piece of shit, and when you believe that, you ARE a piece of shit.
I can't make you believe or know, anything. I can advise you however, to take the high road on this. You can roll around in the negative emotions and have a pity party for years over this, or you can revel in the experience of having known Alex for some time and glory in the memory of having known him.
Some day, you are going to die. Some day, I will too, and so will every one you have ever met. Sucks? Yes! So what to do?
LIVE YOUR LIFE LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW.
Glory in the fact that you are here, now, and you are capable of acting, feeling and questioning.
Living like there is no tomorrow is not permission to go out and rob banks or stuff like that. You remember that there are people with blue suits and guns who will pursue you if you act without responsiblity.
Live freely and responsibly!
What is responsibility? Not obligations, as the world would have you believe.
RESPONSE-ABILITY is what it means.
Know that if you rob a bank, you may have to go to jail. If you accept that condition, rob away! That's responsibility.
I would rather that you just grieved the loss of your friend, admitted that you don't understand it, and glory in the fact that you are still here, now, and are able to adapt to situations and grow and question all that you see.
The one gift that Alex Shave left you in parting was this painful and wonderful experience of questioning your own existence. This is the time when you, Ic0n0, can choose to grow. Growing is almost always painful, so we avoid it. I know I do!
Admit to yourself that you don't know the big answers to the big questions. That is the first step in finding out what the answers ARE. Know that you don't know.
I'm sorry to say this, but by dying, Alex may have given you your own life to live. Please reflect on that before you toss it out. Read it again. Alex may have given you a shock big enough to wake you up to live!
If I were you I would use this experience. I wouldn't toss it out. USE it. Use it to your advantage, not disadvantage!
I'm told that the things that don't kill us, make us stronger.
I don't know if that's true, but I'm checking it out.
Lastly, DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING I SAID. You have to experience these things to know that they are true. Check them out for yourself, and never take anyone's word for it, that's a ripoff.
The biggest gift you will ever have is *time*
Do you want to waste it?
*LIVE*
Posted by editor on Jan. 29 2002,02:04
Now, read it again, but slowly.
Posted by Pickle Therapy Lady on Jan. 29 2002,02:04
ic0n0, I hate to hear you've lost a friend but I'm not going to try to answer your questions. I agree w/Ed about everyone being an individual and the answers you seek cannot be answered for you. They must be answered BY you.
I believe in God and I have a specific belief, but religious preferences tend to get ugly around these parts so I'm not going to dive in any deeper.
Just know that I feel for you. I know what it's like to lose a great friend to death.
Posted by liquid metal on Jan. 29 2002,02:09
I honestly don't believe in religion. I don't believe in any form of afterlife either. It worries me not to know what happens when bodily functions cease. Death is just that - your entire being no longer exists.My reasons for believing this come from science. Your brain is a serious of electrical impulses; your thoughts are controlled by electricity just like everything else in the world. Now, think this. Souls manifest themselves in electricity. But if this is true, my computer would then have a soul and whenever i smack it because it's being stupid I'm hurting a soul. I honestly don't believe that last statement. If we were controlled by souls, wouldn't we know information from previous lives? (I'm sure that a soul would just get bored and take on human form after all)....
sorry if that makes you depressed. :-(
Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 29 2002,02:13
I do agree with you in terms of science liquid metal, but nothing is certain.
Posted by editor on Jan. 29 2002,02:21
Your experiences create certainties, if perceived accurately.
Posted by Spydir on Jan. 29 2002,02:32
I don't know if any of you ever noticed this, but Buddhism is so damned universal. Ever person I know that doesn't follow a set religious path (jewish, christian, muslim, etc) believes in some modified buddhism. That's why I believe buddhism is probably the most "right" religion: it fits each person in their own way. There's no real rules or guidelines, you just do what you want with it. Buddhists kick ass. Just wanted to note on that.
Posted by editor on Jan. 29 2002,02:46
I think it was the most esteemed Mao who said, "whenever I hear of religion I reach for my rifle!"To this person, religion is a codified and mummified version of something that was at one time, alive.
Faith, perhaps, is a more accurate view of the spiritual world.
And even that is corrupted by the media. What is faith? Action! Making up the mind and acting! Not believing, but knowing that a greater power will take care of the details!
It's got to be a personal experience for every person to be real.
Whatever that experience may be.
Posted by Vigilante on Jan. 29 2002,02:51
Shao Lin kick more ass. 
Posted by editor on Jan. 29 2002,03:11
Hey V; I was tempted to delete your post, but what the hell; SL is in the martial arts arena and has no bearing here. Mao was an intellectual tyrant gone sour.
Buddha was an enlightened being, Gaughin was a painter, and Ic0n0 is a Detvet in some considerable pain right now.
I think you may be off topic.
Posted by editor on Jan. 29 2002,03:25
Ic0n0, I bust you on my forums. "local pariah" huh? Are you outcast here? not by a long shot. We all love you. You are not a pariah here.You are buying suggestions that you are a bad person. If I thought you were bad, I'd simply ban you. I suspect you are hating yourself, and hating that you hate yourself for doing it.
Yes, I meant that.
If you *should* have known better, somehow, so should AS.
Fact is, we find out stuff only by making mistakes.
Have you learned to ride a bike? Did you have training wheels? I did! When you took them off, did you ever fall? I sure did! That is the *ONLY* way to learn to ride the bike! Yes! By falling off!
Now how will you learn to live? Please don't fall off this one!!! Let AS show it to you. He had many things going for him and yet he tossed them. Can you choose to learn from this? Do you wish to play the role of victim? Well, you are playing that role
And it doesn't become you.
Fact is, you've been given a piece of paper. You aren't sure if it's a check or a bill. You believe it's a bill. You are paying the bill and it hurts BAD.
Are you sure it's not a check?
When you experience death at close-hand, do you not realize that you are alive?
Do you choose to die over this experience?
You are acting a little like it.
Wouldn't living, no matter how painful, be preferable?
At least you can still get laid when you're alive.
That's what kept me from killing myself when I was about 16.
Posted by ic0n0 on Jan. 29 2002,04:12
Kbreak I do respect what you have to say as I do everyone who means well, but you’re not really reading me the right way. I know people care about me and I know that you are trying to be a good friend and a motivator but I am not the type of person who is easily influenced by others. I was an agnostic/atheist before this travesty and I continue to be one, I don’t believe in spiritualism and spirituality so you have to realize that your motivating comments regarding faith and high powers don’t really work and frankly they make me upset. People can believe what ever they wish to and this is not a phase that people go throw in the process of growing up, I was grown up a long time ago. Mentally I have been an adult since about the age of 12 you may not believe it but I have medical records stating that as well as documentation from psychologists. My brain had completed development when I was 12 normally this doesn’t happen until like 19 or 20. This is also the part of the reason for some of my learning issues like really poor spelling, as fully developed brains do not like taking in new information right away or as promptly. So the point I am making is that I may be physically 19 but I am far older than that mentally and that I may be depressed right now but time heals all wounds. I do need support but I am not a lost lamb looking for direction, more like a dog with one blind eye. I do respect your religious points of view and I may be wrong in the end about mine but what I do know is that people who change their minds in weakness are weak. I am not saying stop praying for Alex, but please stop treating me like a lost child, I am sad and depressed and I am crying a lot but that is normal, I will learn to accept my loss and I will learn to accept Alex’s death but right now I do not need to be converted. I don’t mean to sound like an ass but I get really defensive when people try to tell me what they perceive as truth and expect me to take it and are offend when I don’t. I want to pray but I don’t believe me doing so will change how I am feeling or where Alex goes. I want they’re to be answers but I know they may never come. So cheer up I am to some extent competent but I am far from emotionally healed. It took a lot out me to write this but I want everyone to know I am in a much better mental state now and that am thankful for your support. I think I am going to toast to Alex now and close this thread, I am sure others would have much to say to me but you can email me I have taken to much of the focus out of the forums.