I just wanted to do 'em both, y'know what i mean...

started my PhD on Monday.

------------------
"The theory of gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love." - Einstein

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
Mine was comp. sci. for awhile, but I got bored and wound up getting a degree in English - information art, rather than information science.

---

I just reread that post. Thats a pretty big shift in your mindset there - going from comp sci to english...

Then again one of my friends changed from law to nursing. Don't know if she finished though...

------------------
"The theory of gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love." - Einstein

------------------
Hey DKB shu'p with all that jibba jabber ya crazy foo!

------------------
-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...

Although, I did do a 6 month stint as a Biomedical Engineering Major. I sort of realized that I couldn't stand the sight of blood and I'd be pretty worthless.

Both required to get a Phd in World Domination.

------------------
Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >

quote:

---

Originally posted by askheaves:
Although, I did do a 6 month stint as a Biomedical Engineering Major. I sort of realized that I couldn't stand the sight of blood and I'd be pretty worthless.[/B]

---

was it a more medical based program? you don't have to deal with blood for a lot of biomed. i have worked on airbags and will most likely end up in automotive safety. no blood. but i have not minded it in the past, so i guess it's just not a big deal for me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fire_502:
was it a more medical based program?

---

It was very medical based. I believe there was options for clinical specialty, and stuff. My senior design project (yes, it was assigned to us freshman year) was to build up a medical dummy to give off all the readings of a human for training. We were to work with the nursing program. Damn, I had 2 hot chicks in my group, I was the group leader, and would have been working with nurses. Damn you, computers! You'd better be worth it!

quote:

---

Originally posted by masher:
Thats a pretty big shift in your mindset there - going from comp sci to english...

---

not really. I still planned on working in the IS field. I was just REALLY REALLY bored with Comp Sci, since I'd been programming since I was ten.

I just got hired for a new job as a Unix administrator, and one of the big reasons I was hired was "social skills." The guy figured I had to have better social skills than 90\% of IS types simply because I majored in the humanities - and since I knew my shit otherwise, I beat all the other applicants! w00t!!

Side benefit of switching to English : there was 1 girl in the WHOLE CIS MAJOR, and she was ugly. The English major was 80\% female and a lot of them were fine.

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

quote:

---

Originally posted by DeadAnztac:
damage do you really think you have as much knowledge as someone who went through college?

---

Depends on the course. Do I know as much about physics as someone with a master degree? No. Do I know as much about music as someone with a masters in music? Hell yes.

I think there's alot to be said about being self taught. I'm not trying to imply that schooling is a waste of time. However, it is not the only way one can learn.

With my career direction, I have the same, if not more, knowledge than people who were schooled in what I do.

don't get me wrong. I was not trying to imply that a person who was getting a college education was beneath me. Quite to the contrary. I love to see people that dedicated to any form of learning. Personally, I gained more information in the real world than I would have in a classroom.

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

quote:

---

Originally posted by damage:
Do I know as much about music as someone with a masters in music? Hell yes.

---

I hate to break it to you, dude, but music is actually a pretty tough degree. People with a MA in Music are very good at MANY instruments, as well as knowing nuances of music theory you never even knew existed... I say this because I have a lot of musician friends, all of whom are VERY good at what they do, but none of whom have a degree. One day a dude with an MA hung out, and he blew them all away... made 'em all wish they went to school

The same applies to almost any degree. Even Comp. Sci., although one of my teachers remarked that I was "probably qualified to be taking graduate courses."

------------------
A good programmer is someone who looks both ways on a one-way street

Damien, I know and have worked with many people that have MA's in music. All of them, very gifted and talented people. And I would not take anything away from them. I would, however, say that I have more knowledge of music than a great many of them.

There are always people that will be smarter than others regardless of self-education or college. Besides all of that, all I wanted to know was if there were any other self-educated people in our midst?

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

quote:

---

Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
I hate to break it to you, dude, but music is actually a pretty tough degree. People with a MA in Music are very good at MANY instruments, as well as knowing nuances of music theory you never even knew existed..."

---

[sarchasm]YEA but can they setup a router....[/sarchasm]

But to be serious... all a person with an MA can do is be a music teacher or a musician/composer. They get 1 maybe 2 swift kicks in the balls and they fall right over.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Observer:
Please also keep in mind that there is a lot more to college/uni than just academics. It's getting a little closer to the "real world" (not MTV-based). And learning more about yourself and life by interacting with people you would have otherwise never met.

---

i'm away at school right now and i agree that's all well and true, you do learn more about yourself and have to keep up with responsibilities of school and stuff, but i really wouldn't call it the "real world". i wouldn't be able to get away with half the stuff i do here if i were in the "real world". i would say it's more mtv-based than reality based. the trick is learning how to not get lost in the mtv-ness of it all.

also, i dont think damage meant anything bad at all.. my brother is in MA right now and he is really good at what he does, but that doesnt mean there isnt a 'will hunting' person out there who could kick his ass..

i mean, most things you could argue about like physics, and math and science.. but when it comes to music, or arts in general those are just things you can be talented in. and talent can go a long way to inspiration to do personal research.

------------------
Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was getting tired of being stared at.

quote:

---

Originally posted by SimplyModest:
i mean, most things you could argue about like physics, and math and science.. but when it comes to music, or arts in general those are just things you can be talented in. and talent can go a long way to inspiration to do personal research.

---

YES.
I know 5 music majors who decided to form a band together and, quite frankly, they kind of sucked. Sure, they could all play 10 or so instruments and tell you who composed what song in the 17th century, but when it came to making actual music (together) most of them just weren’t good.

In some things I think that formal education is over emphasized. I don’t know too many self-taught physicists, but I know a few musicians who are way better then any music-major that I ever knew.

Edit: there is a BIG difference between don’t and do.

This message has been edited by Blain on March 14, 2001 at 09:48 PM

You can be a computer programmer, a network admin, a hacker, etc... but you can't be an engineer. And if you think that a computer engineer and a computer scientist are the same... much less a software engineer and a computer programmer... then you have another thing coming.

a person can be a programmer without ever having gone to college, and be very good at it. the reality is that they never learn the very base information that is the foundation for the work they do. i can better explain it in terms of hardware, where someone might be a really good network tech, and be able to trouble shoot any problem or set up any router, but if you asked them to explain the electrics behind why it works, they will look at you and go 'duh? wha?'

i'm an engineer. i can far more than lay out the design of a processor on a circuit board, i can build it. i can tell you how it works. it takes college to learn that.

and fyi, graduating april 29, 2001 with a BS in computer engineering. currently seeking employment in the tucson area.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

.

The degree gives you the theoretical base to do your work better. You not only know what happen if you do something, but why it does it as well. That is what people look for - to be able to apply your skills to problems not directly covered by your course. You know why certain things happen, so you can infer why something else happens and then you can go and fix it.

I think that makes sense...

------------------
"The theory of gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love." - Einstein

This message has been edited by masher on March 15, 2001 at 02:25 AM

There is not one shred of information that is held exclusively in a classroom. While I will admit, it may be a whole lot easier to learn there than on your own. Any information you can find in a classroom or on a college campus can be found elsewhere. All that is required is the decision to find it.

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

This message has been edited by damage on March 15, 2001 at 01:08 PM

masher-Engineering science is a major. you learn a good deal from all the main fields (EE, ME, etc). its mainly for physicists who want to know how to build stuff too (like particle acclerators)

One thing that at least one professor said was that once you learn to be an engineer, you can do any engineering. I'm a computer engineer by education and trade, but I could become a mechanical if I wanted. It's all about a mindset, a procedure, a need to tinker, a need to be formal, and a need to communicate what we've done. That kind of stuff isn't found in books very easily. The books in college are there to provide a foundation of knowledge, and give us busy work in order to learn how to be engineers.

I think one thing everyone is missing is that I'm not saying, "college bad. Self learning good." On the contrary, I think schooling is a wonderful thing. I am extremely happy about Kuru's upcoming graduation. It's a great accomplishment. However, college is not the only way to gain knowledge, a mindset or a skill. It is definately one way (and often times the best way) but it is not the only way.

I am also a computer engineer by education and trade. Just because that education did not come from a college does not make it any less valid.

quote:

---

Originally posted by askheaves:
You can't be an engineer without a formal education. It's in the definition of an engineer.

---

Webster would disagree with you:

quote:

---

Main Entry: 1en·gi·neer
Pronunciation: "en-j&-'nir
Function: noun
Etymology: alter. of earlier enginer, from Middle English, alteration of
enginour, from Middle French engigneur, from Old French engignier
to contrive, from engin
Date: 14th century
1 : a member of a military group devoted to engineering work
2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER
3 a : a designer or builder of engines b : a person who is trained in or
follows as a profession a branch of engineering c : a person who
carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance
4 : a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus

---

I'm sure you are able to provide a different definition from a different, but just as valid, source but that only goes to show that we cannot rely on definitions of the titles we use in life and work.

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

quote:

---

Originally posted by damage:
I'm sure you are able to provide a different definition from a different, but just as valid, source but that only goes to show that we cannot rely on definitions of the titles we use in life and work.

---

Since you asked

American Society of Civil Engineers defines a profession as such:

quote:

---

A profession is a calling in which special knowledge and skill are used in a distinctly intellectual plane in the service of mankind, in which the successful expression of creative ability and application of professional knowledge are the primary rewards. There is implied the application of the highest standards of excellence in the educational fields prerequisite to the calling, in the performance of services, and in the ethical conduct of its members. Also implied is the conscious recognition of the profession's obligation to society to advance its standards and to prescribe the conduct of its members.

---

Now, this isn't a definition of engineer, but it is true that real engineering is a profession by other definitions and is legally recognized as such by law. I could look it up, but I don't want to right now.

All of this, to me, is mostly just friendly banter and dick-waving. I know that some non-schooled folks can whup up on me in some areas, and I could do the same back. The only thing that really pisses me off slightly is folks who call themselves engineers, but have never gone through the coursework, the hours, the pain that I've gone through to be as damn good as I am. Because engineering school is more than a collection of classes about technologies, or processes, or whatever. There's a set of subtle traits that are learned when doing lab assignments, or papers, or taking notes on a chapter, or sitting in lecture. These things are not learned outside of this emersive environment.

I don't want to go on about this forever. I'm too tired to reach for my ethics book again and I have other things to accomplish today.

The real world does provide a very similar environment to the labs, papers, notes and lectures. Often times they can be more intense since they are usually taking place in live situations and not in controlled lab settings.

I think what you have accomplished is a great thing and very worthy of merit, but please don't take anything away from people like myself just because you've struggled to get where you are. I assure you my struggle has not been an easy one either. And, as long as we take our chosen career paths our struggles will not end. As the world and technology changes we continue to struggle to maintain our knowledge.

I agree this has gone on far to long. I did not want to change the direction of the thread. I only wanted to know if there were other self-taught people here.

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

quote:

---

a person who is trained in or
follows as a profession a branch of engineering

---

haha defeated your own argument

quote:

---

Originally posted by damage:
...engineer by education and trade.

---

Oh, really? Which train?
::rimshot::

Was looking for an excuse to use that. I'm a Computer Engineer as well. Looking forward to graduation a month and a half away.

As to the dick-waving and comparing pain and struggling, here's a little analogy:

Athlete: I am in top form because I have endured pain for a long time to get where I am.

Wannabe: Hey! I'm just as good as you! I endured a lot of pain by jumping into a fire and staying there for a long time! Don't try to tell me I'm not as good as you.

Just saying that just comparing "pain" isn't enough. There has to be more of a standard.

------------------
A good programmer is someone who looks both ways on a one-way street

------------------
Necesse est multos timeat quem multi timent.

Observer, I think a better analogy would be:

Athlete: The only way to get in good shape is to spend 6-8 hours a day in the gym.

Farmer: I'm in great shape but I do it by spending 14 hours a day doing hard physical labor. So, were both in great shape.

On a lighter note. A joke:

The engineers are sitting around, looking at some medical books, trying to decide what kind of an engineer God is.

Engineer 1: God must have been a mechanical enginner. Look at the joints and the musclular structure.

Engineer 2: No, God must have been an electrical engineer. Look at all the electrical circuitry and wiring.

Engineer 3: Don't be silly, God had to be a civil engineer. Only a civil engineer would put a toxic waste pipeline through a recreational area.

------------------
damage@detonate.net

"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'

there are some things you can only be by going through the established and accredited training practices to become one. you can't just decide 'hell, i've done my taxes and my mom's taxes and 500 other people's taxes for the last 20 years, so i'm a CPA.' it doesn't work that way. if you want to be a CPA, you have to go to accounting school and pass exams that prove that you have mastered the skills set up by accreditation boards. you can't become a doctor without going to medical school, nor a lawyer without going to law school. it's not one of those things that's like 'well i remove my own splinters and give myself stitches, so i am a doctor.' or 'i fight my own speeding tickets successfully so i am a lawyer.' you have to go to school, you have to put in years of your life dedicated to learning your trade, and you have to do it to the satisfaction of the licensing board to ensure that you meet the standards.

it's the same with an engineer. you can't just say 'well, i can build a computer' or 'i built my driveway' and claim you're an engineer. until you've proven it to the national board that certifies engineers, you are not an engineer. that national board is called ABET, and they examine every engineering school in the united states and determine whether or not *they're* worthy enough to educate engineers. they do this to every engineering school, every six years, to ensure that the engineers who graduate these schools are qualified to practice their profession.

yeah, ok, so you have experience in live situations, but probably not to the breadth that an engineer has to train. to become a computer engineer, over the last four years i've been required to learn calculus (2 semesters), differential equations and matricies, physics (3 semesters), chemistry (2 semesters), analog and digital circuits (2 semeseters), c, c++(2 semesters), java, perl, programming of operating systems, digital logic, discrete math, digital circuit design, assembly language, organization of computer structers, computer architecture, wireless networks, interfacing, network design, processor design, operational amplifier and transistor circuits, economics of engineering decisions, ethics of engineering decisions, communication, writing, biology, anthropology, philosophy, poetry, history, russian literature, and english literature.

i've taken well over 120 credits in the last five years to become not only good at what i do, but knowledgeable in the foundations of it. an engineer is an artist of technology, who creates new things that never existed before, but to do that, a person must learn all the nuances of why and how the things they creat work. an engineer must understand the impact of her (or his) creations, technologically, financially, and ethically.

engineers spend four years, at least, and over fifty thousand dollars to become qualified to practice their profession. because when it all comes down to the bottom line, it's the degreed, licensed engineer whose name goes on a new design. it's the educated engineer whose ass is on the line if the oil derrick they signed off on kills 167 people (piper alpha) or the nuclear plant they were in charge of melts down (chernobyl) or their robot gets lost (mars explorer).

is there a difference between a tech and an engineer?

well, is there a difference between a barroom darts player and an olympic javelin thrower?

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

there for you can't use the title of engineer until you've actually proven something.

(the use of novell was the first thing that came to mind due to personal experience. (talk about something taht is worthless))

------------------
Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was getting tired of being stared at.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyDennis:
I'm sure there are loop holes.

-Tony

---

you being sure doesnt really amout to jack or shit.. now does it ?

if kuru did research to back her(her.. right?) argument then your being "sure" has no real impact on the argument.

-------
why do people go around calling others 'idiots' just because they want to be right?

------------------
Oh, ho, ho, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83, when I was the only practitioner of it. And I stopped because I was getting tired of being stared at.

In your tax example, if he's studied, knows taxes, etc. and takes the CPA test, then he's certified, and he never went to college. Wow, what a concept.

damage, you rule, these people are idiots.

-Tony

------------------
< w00t >.

you can't take your bar exam unless you went to law school.

you can't take the medical boards unless you went to medical school.

and you can't take the professional engineer's exam unless.....yeah, you guessed it..... unless you went to engineering school.

point. game. set. match.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

-Tony

------------------
< w00t >.

quote:

---

Originally posted by L33T_h4x0r_d00d:

[sarchasm]YEA but can they setup a router....[/sarchasm]

But to be serious... all a person with an MA can do is be a music teacher or a musician/composer. They get 1 maybe 2 swift kicks in the balls and they fall right over.

---

[BITEME]Hm...B.M. Music Performance, Minor Education, Graduate Honors, No computer classes...and **I** can set up a router. Can you play the oboe?[/BITEME]

A lot of folks do get their music degrees then do other things. You can teach, play professionally, or compose. Until this year, I have NEVER taken a class in computers. Yet what I do is some tech support and web administration.

I think all degrees are relevant. Music is more than being able to name the dates of a composer's life, how many sonatas they composed, or how 'filigree' applies to baroque music.

Just the same as computer science would have more to it than being able to take a box and plug a few wires into it.

College education is not overrated. You think you are smart? Take the honors program like I did. You can't spell? (SARCHASM????? try sarcasm) Well, maybe a few english core classes would help you repair that along with your grammar. God knows there are many people that need it.

Nothing wrong with choosing to know more and going to college. Self educated is nice, but you are missing out on the rest of the experience. I wouldn't be the same person I am now if I had chosen to skip college.

Nene

This message has been edited by Nene on March 18, 2001 at 12:30 PM

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyDennis:
I'm sure there are loop holes.

-Tony

---

Well, I defer Observer and Kuru when it comes to things engineering related, but I can say with all certainty that there's no way they'll let me take the NCLEX (exam to be an RN) without going to an accredited nursing school. Now, in the case of nursing, I may have the option of choosing an associate's or bachelor's program, but either way I have to go to some type of school to learn how to be a nurse.

Yes, many of the things that one would learn in nursing school, or engineering school, or any school, can be learned on one's own. Anyone can buy the books, read and take notes on them, and conduct experiments for hands-on experience, and often learn much of the same things. But profs have a lifetime of experience to share. And there is a lot to be said for having to do such things under a professor's imposed deadlines. One will constantly be faced by deadlines in the workplace, and if you really want to be philosophical about it, isn't life really just one big deadline??

and as for the P.E. (professional engineer) exam, you can't take it unless you graduated from an ABET accredited engineering school.

------------------
kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
nene: what's a B.M. degree stand for? never heard that abbreviation before, kinda curious

---

I'm guessing Bachelor of Music kuru. The real abbreviation is BMus, like Bachelor of Science is BSc. The American system doesn't seem to like the extra letters and cuts them down to BM and BS.

------------------
"The theory of gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love." - Einstein

quote:

---

Originally posted by kuru:
nene: what's a B.M. degree stand for? never heard that abbreviation before, kinda curious

and as for the P.E. (professional engineer) exam, you can't take it unless you graduated from an ABET accredited engineering school.

---

BM is a more specific degree. I know Music Educators around here get a BA, but then again they dont have to take half the crap I and the other performance/composing majors did. I've not seen BMus before. The shorter the abbreviation, the more I've noticed ppl like it. Hehe.

Nene

p.s. I have a fondness for dots, lol. B.M.!!! hehe.
------------------
"The problem with reality is the lack of background music."
< http://home.earthlink.net/~boneshsd/nita/ >

This message has been edited by Nene on March 25, 2001 at 08:34 AM