Topic: technology, religion, and oblivion
started by: sullen
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It's a new millenium, and humanity's presence on the Earth is as present as ever. With every new technology that's released, we rely less on God, and more on our own devices. We're near ready to replace God in the world, almost capable of cloning humans. What is to become of us at that point? I believe that we are going to abolish religion. We're going to replace religion like a worn out novelty. Why do I say this? Because it's going to be a waste of time. That's right. Religion is an established waste of time. As we progress into the 21st century, we'll be capable of perfoming God's job. We'll be capable of doing this according to our own needs, as well. So where does God go from here, if he even exists? Take a glance at how many religions have tried and failed in the past. The Egyptians. The Greeks. The mighty Romans. They all died out. With the rise and fall of each great civilization, many religions have come and gone. Today, most anyone will tell you that they were _wrong_, while complacently accepting that 'God' is real. Now how much different are we than them? If you remember your history correctly, the Egyptians oppressed the Jews because they were _wrong_ in their beliefs. We believe in 'God' now. What about 100 years from now? I think that technology will ultimately be an effective replacement of religion. More and more people are getting on their computers every Sunday morning to check the news and stock, and not dressing in their Sunday clothes and heading over to church. Technology is being integrated into your life as you read this, and God is becoming more of an old fad. Where are we going to head from here? How far is religion going to extend its reaches before we shut it down permenantly? And if 'God' exists, how far is he going to allow us to take our technology before he shuts us down? I certainly wouldn't agree with this if I was him, if I was ruler of the stronger portion of the world. Technology has infiltrated nearly every household in America, and some have already begin to replace the Bible with their household PC. Technology, boys and girls. Technology is your new God.
This message has been edited by sullen on March 09, 2001 at 04:25 PM
Also, not everyone in the civilizations you list believed in "God" any more than everyone today does. Atheistic and scientific philosophies have been around for thousands of years.
Another thing--the ancient Greeks' conception of their gods was very different from ours, and was actually borrowed from the Egyptians.
Modern-day religions would not exist without their ancient precursors. . .your logic sounds to me like "If Einstein was so smart, then how come he's dead?"
If Einstein was so smart, then how come he's dead???? tell me that.
the worst thing that happened to religion was "organized religion"
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"All those moments will be lost in time like tears in the rain, time to die..."
i guess if you can't find out until you die anyway, what's the harm in having some faith?
well..... DUH!
You are, of course, correct in pointing out that Egyptians are gone, ancient Romans are gone, ancient Greeks are gone, Sumerians are gone.
But you know that some religions that existed back then still exist today, right?
One big exampl: the Jews. So your argument does not hold water entirely.
Besides, you say "If I were God..." Well, you're not God. And if there is a God, then I hardly think that anyone could conceive what goes through Its mind. (Yes, Its, not His or Her.)And if there is a God, there is no way we can go against him, and thus all the technology is merely what he wants to happen.
And if there is no God, then your argument is just a waste of time.
So, it's a lose lose situation.
Personally, I believe there is a God... but that's a different discussion completely.
This message has been edited by luth13n on March 10, 2001 at 12:53 AM
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god has a HARD ON for marines - Full Metal Jacket
This message has been edited by melk0r on March 10, 2001 at 11:27 AM
<new topic>
On religion what I don’t understand is why many (note: not all) theists never even analyze their beliefs, they assume the beliefs they have are right just because their parents or relatives told them it was. For fucks sake think for yourselves! Now many theists have analyzed their beliefs and still believe in what they started and I can respect that. I know the people who force their religion on others are “trying to save your soul” but why is it that the people who have analyzed there beliefs don’t do this, I think those individuals have realized there is a possibility that they could be wrong, I could be wrong in my atheism also but at lest I recognize that.
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"I am not a Marxist." -- Karl Marx
This message has been edited by ic0n0 on March 10, 2001 at 08:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ic0n0:
On religion what I don’t understand is why many (note: not all) theists never even analyze their beliefs, they assume the beliefs they have are right just because their parents or relatives told them it was. For fucks sake think for yourselves! Now many theists have analyzed their beliefs and still believe in what they started and I can respect that.
dude, i feel exactly the same way. there used to be this girl i really liked, except her father was like a priest or something and ran a parish, so she unquestionably beleived EVERYTHING she was taught and i just could not accept that.
i know its hipocrytical - being close-minded about open-mindedness (i hope someone understands that other than me!) but tis how i feel
quote:
Originally posted by fatbitch:
i know its hipocrytical - being close-minded about open-mindedness
it's not hypocritical. Being open-minded has its limits, just like everything else. That doesn't mean you can't believe that 99\% of the time, being open-minded is the best thing to do 
So, sullen, have you checked to rollbooks for your local Catholic churches? How about all of the new Mormon churches that are being constructed, and then filled with parishoners? Oh, and let's not forget all of the other organized Christian religions (Protestants, Episcopalians, ad nauseum) that draw folks all of the time. Even the church that I go to is growing, and we have neither a church building nor an organized "recruitment" program. Your statements concerning fewer people going to church are based, I believe, on your own wish rather than actual research. Please don't try to pass off your opinions as facts.
Secondly, I firmly believe that the concept of "God" will never go away. People need something to believe in, and most like the idea that there is a benevolent God who will take care of them after death. God will never die, only your computer.
I have more, but let's see how you respond to this.
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--Jynx
I used to be a kleptomaniac, but then I took something for it.
"Most men complacently accept 'knowledge' as 'truth'. They are sheep, ruled by fear."
quote:
Douglas Adams THGTTG:
"The Babel fish," said The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy quietly,
"is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the
Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy not from its carrier but from those
around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave
energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier
a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies
with nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain which
has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick
a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you
in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the
brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so
mindboggingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers
have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence
of God.
"The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I
exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It
could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore,
by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
"`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly
vanished in a puff of logic.
"`Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove
that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
Everything you ever need to know is in this book
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"All those moments will be lost in time like tears in the rain, time to die..."
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight Bob:
bollox
"Many a true word spoken in jest"
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-- incubus
As I chase the leaves like the words I never find ...
quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
askheaves, the link please...
Christ, sorry I'm late folks. Been busy having an amazing weekend. Here ya go, ya psycho.
< http://www.detonate.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000568.html >
Oh, and by the way, God's dead. He's been dead for a long time. Man is holding the smoking gun. Just ask Friedrich.
By the way, I was in Phoenix last night. I couldn't place the smell, but I'm pretty sure it was the bullshit you were spewing. Have a nice day
It is not God that has changed in time. It is our view of God that has changed. I don't know whether there is a God or not but I do believe that, if there is, he/she is not the benevolent, merciful creature we hope God will be. I think it would be more accurate to say that God would simply just be the bearer of absolute truth.
As for religion dying, religion will always exist as long as there are people who have need for it. Only one religion has to survive in order to make your arguement invalid and as you've already pointed out, the jewish faith has survived all of those eras you mentioned. God is not religion. Religion is only how people choose to follow God. And if God exists, he/she will undoubtedly exist far longer than your hopes for this to be a valid arguement.
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damage@detonate.net
"On a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero."
-Narrator 'Fight Club.'
quote:
Oh, and by the way, God's dead. He's been dead for a long time...Just ask Friedrich.
"God is dead." - Nietzche
"Nietzche is dead." - God
quote:
Originally posted by whiskey@throttle:
"God is dead." - Nietzche"Nietzche is dead." - God
Maybe you miss the point of this little exercise. You pulled out the most important part of the bastardized quotes. Nietzche says that God is dead, and man killed him. It doesn't mean that God is figuratively dead, that he ever existed, or that religion is gone. It's a very shortend way of stating what was written in the first post here. Man is finding ways of living without God, and this has been true for some time. It's less like we're killing God than we're finding it easier to kill the relationship we have with God.
Now, seeing as how this has been true for quite a while, and religious influence hasn't disappeared, leads me to believe that I won't see Christianity disappear within my lifetime. However, some of the insane rablings in this thread do bear some truth. It may not be our computers, it may not be our culture, it may not be our scientists, but we are having an easier time justifying to ourselves that we don't need Him.
quote:
On religion what I don?t understand is why many (note: not all) theists never even analyze their beliefs, they assume the beliefs they have are right just because their parents or relatives told them it was.
next time you get in a fight with a diehard christian, bring this up...
more then likely they were born into a Christian family. What if they born into a Hindu family? or a Bhuddist family? What if they were born to athiests? Would they still love God the same and would They love this person the same?
Trust me, if they even try to argue any further on "yes I would still love my God", they're lying sons of bitches who you should just slap. With a large object. Or a dead object. A dead rodent.
Now, I do understand that when people reach adulthood they can, and changes are increasingly higher, change their believes, just as children can. But, I'd bet 80 some percent of 15 year olds are the same religion, or in some way still involved, with the same religion they were born into.
I agree with damage to a certain level. Religions will always excist. If you haven't read Animal Farm, I recommend it. Good book. Note it is not truely a children's story, but a rendition of the Communist rule in Russia/USSR.
Also, El Numero Uno is preachin' the truth, once again . In my personal opinion of historical fact (oh... I like the sound of that ), religions were created to explain. The sun rises. Why? A God is riding in his golden hoop-tee! Thunder? A big blonde dude is throwing around his hammer. Then we find out why it "actually" happens. Religions cope. I don't know how many of you have heard this, but recently with the mapping of the Genome and whatnot, they have "proven" that evolution is how it happened. Where will creationists move? God created the universe and left it be to "grow" and expand on it's own. Which, mind you, is Evolution in a sense
Personally, I hold homage to my own religious believes, which I think are the most scientifically proven, tested, and stable out there. Possibilitist. I believe that everything and anything, no matter what it be, is possible. But that doesn't mean that it's likely to be true. There's more to it, but that's the basic idea. Saddly, it's the truth if you through quantum physics and all that good stuff in there.
The only reason I still have the slightest belief a God of any kind, God being a being of higher control then us, is because I think he fucks with us. Seriously. Like, everything in life is GREAT, exactly how you want it, so cool you have trouble believing it's really happening (like those Lexus commericals), and then something happens and it all goes down the drain (to a degree). That's how my life is. I used to displace myself from people and things in fear I'd hurt something/someone, but now I just say if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen, let the cool shit happen first.
All in all, don't deny people's faith. Don't shove your believes on anyone. You can't be sure who's right and who's wrong until you're dead. For all we know, Hussain's the Jewish messiah. Those people in new york talking to themself? Maybe they're reluctent saviors. Better give 'em a quarter next time they ask. Educate yourself in other's ways and expand your own. Organized things suck, be independent!
(this has been a Public Service Announcement brought to you by < Net Syndrome >, producers and distributors of other fine Keep it Real speechs such as "Shut your face and pay attention", "Respect, show it or get smacked", "Wanna see the dead body in my trunk? Keep fucking around and you'll be it", and "Damned straight I'm different, fucknugget!".)
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Spydir Web - < http://netsyndrome.net/spydirweb/ >
Net Syndrome - < http://www.netsyndrome.net/ >
All your base... CAN SUCK MY SWEETY BALLS YOU SICK FUCK!
quote:
Originally posted by Spydir Web:
Also, El Numero Uno is preachin' the truth, once again
If you look at Chritianity, your examples of religion coping are null. Norse myths have been proven untrue (as far as Thor is concerned anyway), whereas Christian myths(?) haven't.
Forget about that for now though. Now lets look at an example, the point of which will be made soon enough if anyone will play along…
A mousetrap’s function is to immobilize a mouse so that it can’t chew through your, say, computer cables. Agreed? Ok, then. A conventional mousetrap is made of a number of parts: (1) a flat wooden platform to act as the base; (2) a metal hammer, which crushes the mouse; (3) a spring with extended ends that press against the platform when the trap is charged; (4) a sensitive catch that releases when slight pressure is applied, and (5) a metal bar that connects to the catch and holds the hammer back until the catch is released. (There are also assorted staples to hold the system together.)
You go to the drawer to get a mousetrap, but unfortunately, due to faulty manufacture, one of the above parts is missing. Tell me, which part can be missing and still allow you to catch a mouse? Anyone feel free to try different answers, I’ll check back, to see if anyone has replied (and to retort, if needed), often.
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If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. - William Blake
And on the whole mouse trap thing... the (orginal) point to a mouse trap isn't to kill, but to "warn". If it does kill, that's obviously better. But it's really *supposed* to just catch their tail, so they either die slowly in the trap or rip their tail off. On the whole "what part is missing" thing... I just told you. The hammer, to crush the mouse. Now, I understand your defence already of "that's not the kind of mouse trap I'm talking about", but I'm talking about this kind... so blah
Really, I'm on both sides of the "there is a god"/"there isn't a god" fence. It's just my religious believes to say that it is possible, but not nessarily likely, that it is true. It's possible that aliens walk among us, but that doesn't mean it's true. No proof on either pro or con's side...
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Spydir Web - < http://netsyndrome.net/spydirweb/ >
Net Syndrome - < http://www.netsyndrome.net/ >
All your base... CAN SUCK MY SWEETY BALLS YOU SICK FUCK!
My point is that some things (like said mousetrap) are irreducibly complex, meaning that they can't have evolved from some simpler form.
Some other examples would be the way blood clots (every animal would have bled to death before the clotting mechanisms could have evolved), your eyes, even the bombardier beetle's defenses. The very people you said just proved evolution right, have actually already proved the opposite...
Read [u]< Darwin's Black Box - The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution >[/u] by Michael J. Behe to learn more.
(All the examples I cited were taken from that book. And, no, Behe isn't some Christian fanatic, in fact, he's not even a Christian at all... he's just your everyday biochemist professor ( ) who can see that there are some flaws in the Darwinian theory.)
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If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite. - William Blake
*Edit: Blah
This message has been edited by hair on March 12, 2001 at 09:27 PM
"good afternoon everybody...i am the devil and welcome to hell. now let me just see if everyones here...athiests? yes. satanists? yes. christians?.... yes i'm afraid the jews were right."
then there was bit about hitler having a barbeque later on but thats digressing from the point i guess
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Hey DKB shu'p with all that jibba jabber ya crazy foo!
quote:
Maybe you miss the point of this little exercise.
Really?
quote:
You pulled out the most important part of the bastardized quotes.
Umm…okay…
quote:
Nietzche says that God is dead, and man killed him. It doesn't mean that God is figuratively dead, that he ever existed, or that religion is gone...Man is finding ways of living without God, and this has been true for some time. It's less like we're killing God than we're finding it easier to kill the relationship we have with God.
And the joke sides with the contrary. It’s a witticism, above all, thrown in for humor. Still, I disagree with Nietzche. Does the fact that I don’t side with a cynical pessimist make me, “miss the point?”
In case you haven’t noticed, God is not dead, literally OR figuratively. The majority’s relationship with God is not even remotely compromised! Nietzche argues that man's relationship with God is not what it used to be, that the integrity of people’s faith is a sham…that we will ultimately realize what Sullen mentioned in the first post of this thread:
quote:
…technology will ultimately be an effective replacement of religion.
Bullshit. The vast majority of people on this Earth believe in a God, and such a belief dictates the scope of their lives. God serves as a template for moral thought and benevolent action…a ruler of men, using fear to maintain order. And guess what – it works. Throughout history, nations are governed and wars are fought for the sanctity of God and his corresponding values. Is this true of Nietzche? No. In fact, only a minority of humans are finding “[ways] of living without God.” Are they the fabled Ubermensch? Hardly…
Hence, when Nietzche posits, "God is dead," God mockingly retorts, "Nietzche is dead." Because God is still omnipresent and Nietzche is not. Because God’s supposed word (fact or fiction) is affecting far more lives than the musings of one philosopher.
The tragic irony is that what Nietzche believed would happen to God is actually happening to himself. Go take a poll: compare how many people know the Zarathustra versus how many know the Bible, the Torah, or the Qur’an. If you want, I can save you the time and tell you how it will turn out.
The uncanny phenomenon is that while we know Nietzche lived, God existence is yet to be proven…and the collective notion of “God” is still the most powerful entity on the planet. God is only dead when people stop believing and worshiping…and that, as mentioned before, is nowhere near the horizon. So, I say again:
“God is dead.” – Nietzche
“Nietzche is dead.” - God
quote:
Originally posted by damien_s_lucifer:
it's not hypocritical. Being open-minded has its limits, just like everything else. That doesn't mean you can't believe that 99\% of the time, being open-minded is the best thing to do
Reminds me of one my my quotes:
Dont be so open minded your brains fall out.
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"The problem with reality is the lack of background music."
http://home.earthlink.net/~boneshsd/nita/
What about India? It has a huge population density and a large number of the people are musleums, and lets remember here folks, musleums believe in a god (Ala) too. I mean doesn't that count? Please don't kill me if I'm wrong..
(/me realizes he needs to learn a SHIT load more about other religions)
"well there was this super compact super particle that due to some reason i like decided to make explode and due to quantum relativity and stuff i made u lot"
now tell me do you really think your average 2000BC person would understand that crap
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Hey DKB shu'p with all that jibba jabber ya crazy foo!
Darwin’s theory of evolution is the best scientific theory we have at the moment, we most likely evolved from lesser creatures over the past 5 billion years, and creatures that bleed to death died and didn’t pass on those genes. (Some humans do bleed to death if cut it’s called hemophilia and they do procreate) We are descended from 5 billion years of successful life, who knows how many creatures died before a successful one lived and procreated, far more life-forms died than survived otherwise our world would be really crowded, it’s survive of the fittest that is what is the key in Darwinian evolution. It can be argued that there is no evidence because all these in-between species are dead. Yes that’s mainly because another species took over their territory and space on the food chain or they died off or from a plague or a disaster of some kind like a commit and another species later took over that spot in the chain. I hope that was coherent.
quote:
What about India? It has a huge population density and a large number of the people are musleums, and lets remember here folks, musleums believe in a god (Ala) too.
Yes, Muslims believe in Allah (monotheistic), but I don't think most Indians are Muslims. The vast majority (80\%) are actually Hindu (worshiping Vishnu, Shiva, and others). It's their arch enemies, the neighboring Pakistanis, that are primarily Muslim.
edit: \% from CIA factbook
This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on March 13, 2001 at 11:55 PM
I can't pull any references off the top of my head (or out of my ass), but I believe he even referenced Christianity directly in his arguments on religion...
I could be wrong. Don't quote me on that. 
quote:
China is in Asia, and I believe has its own successful religion, Buddhism. So does Japan, for that matter. The Japanese are polytheistic, and are a very successful people. They don't believe in God, and 1/4 of the worlds people live in China. As I stated in my post, it's proven fact that 3.5/10 people in the world believe in God. That's not too powerful a number for God, is it?
- There's a statistic to prove anything, and seeing how you didn't even post a link to your supposed "fact," I hold it as invalid speculation. You can't just pull some number out of your ass, not mention it's source, and expect us to believe it. Where's the study? How sound was the methodology? Where was it published? Who conducted it? Who composed the sample set? Is the study reliable? Is it valid? etc. etc. etc. (yes, I'll feel stupid if you already posted it)
- As for your words on Asian religion: mind you, not EVERY citizen of a country shares a common religion. You straight up say, "[the Japanese] don't believe in God." Hello? McFly? You expect me to believe that NO Japanese people believe in God?
- From the CIA World Factbook: China's Religious Distribution - Religions: Daoist (Taoist), Buddhist, Muslim 2\%-3\%, Christian 1\% (est.). Japan's Religious Distribution - observe both Shinto and Buddhist 84\%, other 16\% (including Christian 0.7\%) S. Korea's Religious Distribution Religions: Christian 49\%, Buddhist 47\%, Confucianist 3\%, Shamanist, Chondogyo (Religion of the Heavenly Way), and other 1\%...there's a lot more God worship going on in East Asia than you seem to know about.
- What "God" is depends on your definition. Can't it be argued that Buddha is a God of sorts? Even if not, you must admit the religion espouses some belief in the supernatural (reincarnation, karma, etc)
edit: fixed the quote
This message has been edited by whiskey@throttle on March 13, 2001 at 12:54 PM
it actually puts forward a rather interesting viewpoint on the whole thing namely that god has always been assumed to be a "good no matter what entity" whereas in this verison of events he decides that as humanity has gottten so fucked up and all that he/she/it decides to wipe out everything and start over. It puts a whole spin on the whole noah and the ark story in that we as humans arent as big as we think we are and that we're taking liberties with our rights to live. makes you think it does. This message has been edited by Dark Knight Bob on March 14, 2001 at 05:01 PM
If you have MSN (I've migrated to a single service) add me, rhabenic@hotmail.com, and I'll do my best.