As the events of seven days prior are settling in, I find myself very scared at the position in which we, as a country, find ourselves. The government is prepared for an extended campaign - for all out war - and I'm not sure we're entirely justified in doing so. Even if we are justified, our actions seem to be less of “ridding the planet of an awful evil,” than “eradicating the swarm after being stung, despite the fact that we’ve been throwing rocks at the hive all along.”

Bin Laden needs to go. I agree. He has too many followers and is bent on our absolute destruction. Furthermore, anyone else proven to be involved in any terrorist act needs to be punished appropriately. We have to send a clear message that violence is not the answer (ironically, with more violence).

But that’s about all I can support.

Truth is, we need to open our eyes about what our country has been doing abroad. We also need to realize that this attack, while sickening and heartbreaking, was a giant wakeup call to the US. It was these terrorists trying to say, "HEY! WAKE THE FUCK UP AMERICA. WELCOME TO OUR WORLD."

I don't support what these killers did in ANY way. I think they are sick people with a distorted, evil perception of progress and justice. But I'm having a hard time ignoring the "whys" as each day goes on. I mean, think about it: there are people out there willing to slave their entire lives away just to get a chance to commit suicide in order to kill some of us! Think about that! That's a heavy fucking thing. I want to know why. I don't want to fight back - what's the point in that? Just more dead people. Why can't we work - and I mean earnestly work - to fix the problems between us?

Anyhow, here are some opinions I'd like to share:

quote:

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Virulent, on SA:
First I'm going to say this: What happened on Sept 11 is a horrible thing and the people who perpetrated these crimes should not go unpunished... I hope they are tied to a rack and have their testicles ripped at and pulled by angry squirrels...

But I have these points to express...

1. Has it occurred to you that these countries dislike you for a reason? They are not sponsoring terrorist regimes because your country is the beacon of freedom and wealth... It has to do with your awful, heinous actions in other countries... The U.S. Has sponsored terrorist regimes of its own most notably those in Nicaragua and surrounding areas... what was the deathcount there? 30,000? Oh, how about Iraq... what was that about... Oil!... 3,000,000 dead. You think that your government is fighting for freedom, that’s the biggest bullshit lie around... and you though the fundamentalist countries were brainwashed, heh!

2. Why should I have to go fight even though I'm not an American? You guys got punched in the stomach and now your whole country has been crying for fucking days... Myself I'd be ashamed to be represented by what CNN portrays... my god, these are not the actions of a strong country... Why should my friends and family have to die for a problem your government has caused?

3. Do you guys honestly think that George Bush is looking out for the best interests of "America"? Fuck that, An hour after this happened Mr.Bush and all his Cronies started stepping up to the podium for government support in their military endeavors... Mr.Bush was hoping for a situation like this, and the warning was there even with the Missle Defense system... But now he's a hero...

I know nerves are frayed and everyone in the States is hoping for blood... but turn the mirror on yourselves a bit... You'll see your government for the evil monster it is...

You have built your empire on the blood of others... that's why you're successful.(so has my country, but at least a lot of us see that)

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quote:

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From Jamesban, also on SA, regarding Michael Moore:
Documentary maker Michael Moore doesn’t want this country to make war — but he’s making some enemies.

Moore, the man behind the TV series “The Awful Truth” as well as such films as “Roger and Me,” has been sending out e-mails and posting comments on his Web site, < http://www.michaelmoore.com, > that call for peace to such an the extent that some are finding them anti-American.

“I feel I have a responsibility as one of those Americans who doesn’t feel good right now to speak out and say what needs to be said: That we, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants,” he wrote in one e-mail. “I know it’s a hard thing to hear right now, but if I and others don’t say it, I fear we will soon be in a war that will do NOTHING to protect us from the next terrorist attack.”

The e-mails upset some of his fans so much that asked him to knock it off. “I apologize to any who have taken offense,” Moore wrote in a message this weekend. “No one wants to talk about politics right now — except our installed leaders in Washington. Trust me, they are talking politics night and day, and those discussions involved sending our kids off to fight some invisible enemy and to indiscriminately bomb Afghans or whoever they think will make us Americans feel good.”

< http://www.michaelmoore.com >

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I love my country. I love the USA with all of my heart. It is my home, and I'll die defending it without blinking an eye. But I'm wary of what the government has done to my country's image. I'm scared about what my government is getting me into. I'm terrified about having to fight for a side I think is somewhat to blame.

Whether you agree or disagree, if you can reply intelligently, I encourage you to do so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DuSTman:

2: We go to war. Afganistan is a poor country, and much of the buildings are no more than piles of rubble now, there'd be very few good targets for bombing runs and cruise missile attacks, so it means an infantry assault. Astronomical casualties on both sides are inevitable.

3: A special ops team to go in and assasinate bin laden - Not really practical as it'd take them ages to find one man in an entire country, and they'd be in great danger during that time.

.. That seems to be it for our options. They all suck, but we gotta do one of them.

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You mean these are our only TWO options. #1 was not an option. However, #2 is not as bad as a lot of people make out, we would take down the taliban which is a very oppressive and uncharacteristic of the people of afganhistan, thus there need not be that many civilian casualties. But we couldn't limit it to just the terrorist organization that bin Laden has built up, if we're gonna go after terrorism as we must, we need to take out everyone that has participated and supported terrorism that we know of around the world.

My country is guilty of many blunders in foreign policy and has at many times come across in a bad light, but it is not nearly as bad in its dealings with the rest of the world as "Virulent, on SA:" has made out. Our country has helped to rebuild numerous countries that have been devastated by war, even if it was not war with us, we have poured billions into attempting to keep peace in volatile regions of the world, sometimes failing, but oft succeeding.

On top of that, it is just plain wrong to say that our president was hoping for a situation like that. No American wanted this to happen. However, between Bush and Gore, I am very glad that Bush was elected last November rather than Gore, because I fear how Gore would have handled this situation much more than I fear how Bush will handle it.

The biggest reason that there is anti-American sentiment in the middle east today is this: the US has not been consistant, and has involved itself where they didn't want it to, thus some fundamentalists who do NOT represent the whole populace feel that the US has defiled their holy Islamic land, some of whom have started to strike back in what they feel is righteous anger. However these people are not really following the teachings of their faith, as Islam is a faith of submission to God, tolerance for other peoples, and very strict guidelines for when it is okay to fight for your faith in jihad or holy war. This is just another example of people using religion to justify what cannot ever be justified.

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

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~Anztac [ I'm just this guy, you know? ]

This message has been edited by DeadAnztac on September 18, 2001 at 01:14 PM

this is not a battle of good versus evil. this is a battle of us versus them. personally, I'd choose us. but that's just me.

quote:

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Originally posted by CatKnight:
This is not a battle of good versus evil. this is a battle of us versus them. personally, I'd choose us. but that's just me.

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I agree. The thing is that morality is as ever subjective, although heavily influenced by the attitude of society as a whole - the wests morality is sort of a degenerated christian set, so what we think is right is bound to differ from what someone of the moslem faith thinks is right, we have to put that aside in our logic. What is left? A group of people who will either kill us or be killed themselves.

Lamentably, though, it won't just be afganistan we have to worry about. He's the head man and the main source of funding, but after he's gone what's left? A group of fanatical terrorists whos leaders just been killed, but are well trained and moderately armed. We'll need to do more than killing the head man, and that may lead to more countries being invaded. Exactly what Bin Laden wants, but as there's a paucity of alternatives..

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I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rhydant:
something thats been on my mind: why does america turn EVERYTHING into a catch phrase?!?!?

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America doesn't, the media does.

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

The arguements have been that America is guilty of this too because we impose our morality on people. It's catchy, but remember that words have meaning. You can't impose freedom on people. You can't impose goodness. You cannot impose what is right. You can only liberate. And, in the process, we have rebuilt nations. We have fed people. We have sheltered people. We have attempted to fight for there personal health. We haven't always succeeded, but we've tried. What we impose is a lifestyle that's the best ever invented.

That was Rush Limbaugh this morning. Thought the concept of what he was saying was interesting.

And, it's a lot like that. When people are under a totalitarian regime, the only things they get to hear are right from the government. They don't hear about the billions we give in aid to countries, or about us protecting people in Iraq or Bosnia/Kosovo. They hear that we're sticking our big foot down in other people's affair, we're Satan, and we're responsible for poor people's miserable lives.

Well, America has taken an evolving stand over the last 200 years that freedom is the way to go, and we won't rest until everybody is allowed to be free. If that means imposing liberation for people, then so be it. You're with us or against us. If you're against us, then you're probably just scared of us taking away your slave control over people or you're under that slave control. I'm proud and happy with the freedom that I can enjoy, and I'd love to see other people enjoy that too.

The unfortunate situation that we find ourselves yield us a limited array of options, and frankly all the options available to use have a down side of king-kongesque proportions:

Going and getting Bin Laden would mean war, so what if we decide not to declare war on afganistan ? That's an option, but we must ask ourself why they attacked us? Bin Laden wants a war - that's his program, he wants to try and engineer a great war between the arabic countries and the west, thinking that the arabic countries would be the victor. The USA was attacked as a provocation. What'll Bin Ladins group do if we don't rise to it ? Why, they'll provoke us again, another important building is attacked and we're back in the same situation.

2: We go to war. Afganistan is a poor country, and much of the buildings are no more than piles of rubble now, there'd be very few good targets for bombing runs and cruise missile attacks, so it means an infantry assault. Astronomical casualties on both sides are inevitable.

3: A special ops team to go in and assasinate bin laden - Not really practical as it'd take them ages to find one man in an entire country, and they'd be in great danger during that time.

.. That seems to be it for our options. They all suck, but we gotta do one of them.

The reason you're (USA) hated is that your foreign policy is so widespread that sometimes the unfortunate outcome is not very desirable and some people get hurt enough to bear an almighty grudge.

Be proud of the good that you've done. You guys are always there to lend a hand in disasters and turmoil.

Granted, most of your actions are motivated by national interst and some of the decisions made are bad, but sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils and your leaders are human and do err.
Most bad decisions are made due to bad information at the time.

There's millions of people who sleep better at night and are free to pursue their own dreams because of what you do. Think of Taiwan and South Korea.

I don't want this to come over as flag waving (particularly as I'm from UK) but I've been to the states and appreciate your open hearts. People are always ready to leand a hand or advice. Always ready to rally to a good cause. I've made hundreds of good friends there. Don't let that go away because that's the American dream that causes so many people to want to live over there.

Don't bash yourselves. For a few days, those of us that have seen violence before have expected this turn of attitude. In a way we're like the old alchoholic support group. You guys just didn't know you'd be feeling such a gamut of emotions over the whole affair. We've been there.
I want to congratulate you W@T for doing this.

As CK said, if there's only 2 sides in this, then yours is the one to be on, although there are more ways than one to skin a cat. (Or a terr)

Don't be too unsure about our spec ops boys pulling this guy in either. Bin Laden has been wanted for ages, the only reason for not sending in the boys in black was the fact that you'd be sending armed soldiers into sovereign territory, essentially an act of war. Now we have an open license to do so.
Remember, our SAS boys were good enough to wander into Iraq during the war, dressed as bedouin, and kidnap an Iraqi officer of a specified rank from a designated unit in their engineering corps, from inside their own barracks, just so we could find out about their minefields.

If it can be done, we'll do it. Have faith. Just make sure we get our deposit back when we drop him off for you.

Seriously though, some great points. Regarding the foriegn policy of America, well, I guess I'm just in shock at how the world views us. Only recently did I get a rather eye opening (read: non-US media influenced) view on foriegn affairs, and it really startled me to think of the degree to which people loathe the US.

I never saw, first-hand, the rage of someone so incensed by my country and our way of life that they would give their own just to contribute to our downfall. It's just very shocking. Yet, perhaps I need to pay more attention to the good stuff as well, as some of you mentioned.

Still, assuming we come out of this victorious, and rid the mideast of terrorism...what's next? Will we just go back to our old ways, jerking each other off with parades and patriotic movies about our latest war? Will we simply forget about how we affect the international community? Will we care what others think?

I don't know. Maybe that's what really worries me.

One thing that has happened that I am really proud of in the wake of this tragedy is a resurgence of patriotism in the United States. For a long time I was starting to think that we should just call ourselves the States, rather than include the misnomer of "United" in our title.

Some of the posts I have seen from people outside the US have caused me to think a lot about how in any given country, your view is influenced greatly by what your national media chooses to report to you, and how they choose to report it.

This has sparked me to start looking for and reading up on other sources of information and news reporting around the world. Thus if you have followed my posts on this subject, you might have noticed a progression from "lets kill the fuckers who did this but try to be smart about it" to "this is whats behind stuff and why stuff happened, don't trust the media, but lets kill the fuckers who did this but try to be smart about it."

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

America, since all of this, has had a major shift in ideology.

We have shifted to the left domestically.

We have shifted to the right on foreign affairs.

Sound about right? We're quickly becoming willing to give up some freedoms to stop this crap from happening. Yet, a majority of Americans are willing to 'Bomb the Shit Out Of' whoever is responsible.

Just an interesting thought brewing around for the last week.

But...a lot of you are not comfortable with that idea.

How about this. We, as a country, pull out every dime of forgen aid that we send out. Every penny would stay right here in this country. The amount of support we give the rest of the world is quite staggering. We stay out of everones business.

In 10 years the world will be in complete chaos and we will be getting attacked by terrists that are pissed that we are not doing anything about the rest of the world.

Check out what the rest of the world was saying about us before WWI and II before we got into the war.

Point is, no matter what we do someone will be unhappy. So we are grabbing our balls after years of terror attacks and using force to either end these kind of attacks because all the attackers are dead (good thing) and making sure the world sees what will happen to anyone that tries this again (also a good thing)

We are mankind, we do bad thing to each other. Its in our nature. Deal with it.

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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

Animals do things which are 'in their nature'. An animal will kill when hungry or when it's territory is threatened. It attacks or kills only as much as it takes to achieve these 2 goals.
It does not commit genocide.

Were it up to our nature, we'd just chase them off. Not just kill anyone in the way.

I have no problem with your rationale of killing any terrs to stop terrorism. Just make sure you aim before you shoot.

This message has been edited by WillyPete on September 20, 2001 at 06:40 AM

quote:

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Originally posted by WillyPete:
Yes, we are mankind, but we [b]choose to do bad things to one another.

I have no problem with your rationale of killing any terrs to stop terrorism. Just make sure you aim before you shoot.[/B]

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Close on the first statement. The problem is more of a "We don't choose not to do bad things to one another". Its in our nature to do bad things. We do have the ability to choose. We just tend to choose badly.

The second statement is also true of me. I would always aim before pulling the trigger. I just tend toward things that have a large blast radius. My thinking is that if you make an example the rest will thing twice.

"Im going to fly a plane into a building and alla will take me to paradise. If i do this they will track me down and my entire family and every one i know and love will be wiped off the face of the earth."

This is the thought i want in their heads when they think about things.

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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.< TeamWolfguard.com >
< Robot Conflict >

I thought it was fucking fantastic. Concise, powerful, genuine. Made me feel good. Yay America.

quote:

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Originally posted by Hellraiser:
Yeah, it was a really good speech, somewhat uncharacteristic of him I'm so glad he's president right now, rather than Al Gore.

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I think that he's gotten used to all the speeches that the president is expected to make....don't forget about all the mis-speaking that went on during the campaign...but how do you all think Gore would be doing if he had been elected?

Al Gore: Why...what's that smell?
Bizarre freak on left: <gargling noises>
Al Gore: Ah, yes. My campaign.

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rm -rf /usr/bin/laden

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Old farts never die, they just get blown away.

Well, here we go, I guess...

Buckle up, folks.