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damien_s_lucifer 
Emperor of Detnet
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,00:46 |
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I figured this topic needed to be discussed more, but not in the New Front Page thread.
First, let me say that every Libertarian I’ve spoken with has impressed me with their dedication to equality, freedom, and individuality. The Conservatives repeatedly claim that they are the ones who are dedicated to these principles, and that Liberals are a threat to these things, but our respective actions clearly demonstrate otherwise.
When was the last time you saw a Liberal trying to restrict abortion, push “deviant” sexuality back into the closet, or make this a Christian country?
Liberals believe, just as Libertarians do, that such things infringe upon the natural rights possessed by every human being. Certainly you can find many ideas proposed by us that have not lived up to the high standards we set for ourselves, but all this means is that we make mistakes – just like all human beings do.
The difference between us and the Conservatives is that Liberal/Libertarian ideas, however misguided, are intended to level the playing field and reinforce individual freedom. Conservatives want to reinforce those inequalities, and introduce new ones to restrict the freedom of those "other, lesser" people - whoever they don't like at the time - to the benefit of their egos and their pocketbooks.
Take “political correctness,” for example. At the heart of political correctness is a genuine desire to correct certain inequalities that exist. Whatever the reason, at the present time is IS harder for women and minorities to make it in this country. Unfortunately the whole Political Correctness movement has decided that these inequalities must be corrected by force – and that is precisely where they cross the line from being Liberals to being left-wing radicals.
Liberals adore the idea of a level playing field, but NOT at the expense of restricting individual rights. The idea is to create a society where everyone gets to do pretty much anything they want, as long as they don’t infringe on someone else’s rights.
When it comes right down to it, Liberals and Libertarians have the same core principles, we just differ on the implementation. That disagreement is a good thing, and debate is absolutely necessary if we are to figure out the REAL best way. Both of us are often naďve, but in opposite ways – liberals often want to have our government do too much, and libertarians often want it to do too little. By having both sides working as a whole, each one checking the other, we can find the middle way.
As for gun control – I have no problem with people owning guns, so long as they aren’t going to use them to commit crimes. I believe the Founding Fathers had the same idea in mind when they wrote the Second Amendment – remember, the opening clause is “A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State”. Certainly their intent was not about letting ANYONE get a gun AT ANY TIME for ANY REASON. Even the military doesn’t allow their soldiers to grab everything they can get their hands on, and for good reason. They know it’s foolish and a prescription for anarchy.
Our best bet is to do our best to keep guns out of the hands of those who need a gun to commit their crimes, while simultaneously ensuring that hunters, collectors, hobbyists, and ordinary people who want a gun for defense purposes can get one with as little hassle as possible. That, to me, is a “well-regulated Militia.” It is not an easy problem to solve, and it will take many years and a lot of arguing, but I think we can do it.
Anyway, the gun issue is not something that should splinter us. Not while tyrants still roam the Earth.
Edited by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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chmod
Jedi Knight
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:05 |
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| Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 05 Mar. 2002,16:46) | |
First of all, let me say that I definitely consider myself a libertarian. But I dont think you can say that liberals and libertarians are similar in there beliefs... in fact I would be offended to be associated with liberals. Just because they support free speech, equality, etc, doesnt make them similar, why would any political party NOT support those things??!!?
| Quote | | When it comes right down to it, Liberals and Libertarians have the same core principles, we just differ on the implementation. |
No freaking way. The "core principles" are completely opposite in nature.
Libertarians: Restrict the influence of the government and keep it small, efficient, so as not interfere with people's lives and let things work they do, because it's not the governments job to make your life fair for you.
Liberals: Extend the powers of the government, make it bigger, more expensive, pass a lot of legislation that tries to make life fair for everyone (which is not possible, mind you).
It's as simple as that. Here's a perfect example of a fundamental difference:
Libertarians: GET RID OF THE INCOME TAX
Liberals: Leave the taxes where they are, despite the fact that they are at their highest since World War 2 and we allow such a huge percentage of it to go to waste.
Second of all, I don't think its fair to claim that conservatives are the cause of all these bad things, and that liberals haven't done anything wrong. Let me make it VERY clear that liberals have a history of wasting BILLIONS of tax dollars (if you really want more proof of this, although i think its obvious enough already, I can provide it. Oh-ho-ho, yes.).
Theres more, too.
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Our best bet is to do our best to keep guns out of the hands of those who need a gun to commit their crimes, while simultaneously ensuring that hunters, collectors, hobbyists, and ordinary people who want a gun for defense purposes can get one with as little hassle as possible.
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Libertarians believe that any citizen has the right to own a gun. If any law-abiding citizen wishes to own a gun, then that's perfectly fine. If a criminal who has served his time in prison wishes to own a gun, that's fine too, because as far as the law is concerned he has paid his debt to society and is entitled to all the same rights as everyone else.
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Take “political correctness,” for example. At the heart of political correctness is a genuine desire to correct certain inequalities that exist. Whatever the reason, at the present time is IS harder for women and minorities to make it in this country. Unfortunately the whole Political Correctness movement has decided that these inequalities must be corrected by force – and that is precisely where they cross the line from being Liberals to being left-wing radicals.
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I'm not exactly sure if you're really saying that libertarians are "left-wing radicals." Because if you are, then... that's ridiculous. They couldn't be any further from that.
Libertarians believe that the government should not be expected to "level the playing field," (none of this affirmative action bullshit) but simply to protect the basic rights of every citizen on an equal level.
| Quote | | The difference between us and the Conservatives is that Liberal ideas, however misguided, are intended to level the playing field. Conservatives want to reinforce those inequalities, and introduce new ones - to the benefit of their egos and their pocketbooks. |
That is such an unfair and one-sided thing to say. Liberals are no better than conservatives in this respect and anyone who tells you otherwise is nuts.
I hate to say this, but it sounds to me like you're more into bashing Conservatives and kissing Liberal ass than you are about Libertarianism....
Edited by chmod on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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damien_s_lucifer
Emperor of Detnet
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:18 |
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Congratulations... you have just shown that not only did you barely even pay attention to what I wrote, you have no concept of Libertarianism or Liberalism, nor do you have any concept of taxation.
Libertarians : The Personal Income Tax is unfair, and reduces personal incentive. Other means of income should be found.
Liberals : Lowering taxes right now would plunge the government into debt, which is hardly productive. Find ways to make the government more efficient, slash the pork projects, and then lower taxes when it's financially viable. (Clinton and Gore went a long way towards this goal, by the way.)
Conservatives : Hey, look, everyone! When we get into office, we give out free money! Don't think about the long term consequences! Vote for us!
Edited by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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chmod
Jedi Knight
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Posts: 373
Joined: Jul. 2001
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:27 |
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| Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 05 Mar. 2002,17:18) | | Congratulations... you have just shown that not only did you barely even pay attention to what I wrote, you have no concept of Libertarianism or Liberalism. |
Ok, can you elaborate on that? I think i did a pretty decent job, and I don't see how my understanding of Liberals or Libertarianism is in any way incorrect. But if you can prove otherwise, please do....
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BlackFlag
Objections noted; Notes discarded.
Group: Members
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:28 |
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<debate>
| Quote | | When was the last time you saw a Liberal trying to restrict abortion |
Maybe they should. Is a woman's right to evacuate the human parasite in her uterus more important than the right of that fetus to live? These same hypocrites bitch and moan when they hear of people droping shampoo into puppies' eyes in the name of testing product safety (a worthy endevour), but think a woman should have the right to kill a life, a HUMAN life at that, at any time for any reason.
| Quote | | Liberal/Libertarian ideas, however misguided, are intended to level the playing field and reinforce individual freedom |
At the cost of reverse discrimination and handouts disguised as "affirmative action", and forcing alternative culture down our fucking throats.
| Quote | The idea is to create a society where everyone gets to do pretty much anything they want, as long as they don’t infringe on someone else’s rights.
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The real idea is to create a society fashioned after the cultural/ethical/moral beleifes of the left, where anyone can do whatever the hell they want, so long as they agree with liberal thinking.
| Quote | | I believe the Founding Fathers had the same idea in mind when they wrote the Second Amendment – remember, the opening clause is “A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State”. Certainly their intent was not about letting ANYONE get a gun AT ANY TIME for ANY REASON. |
The 2nd amendmant was written during a time when hunting rifles owned by a signifigant portion of the populations had pretty much the same kill potential at medium/short range as top grade military weapons. Chances are, your aim with that gun was just as good as any soliders. Gun control was a moot point.
The whole spirit of the 2nd ammendmant was "we will not limit the right of americans to bear arms, because this is not a police state, and we're not going to rule by force."
America was founded by pot-smoking alcoholics who were paranoid of "the man" comming down on them. If the 2nd amendmant was implemented as originaly intended, i'd be able to drive a tank down the street. No where in the 2nd amendmant does it say that only militias could own firearms..... And why is it that militias arent allowed to use any weapons that ordinary citizens are not? A militia minus military grade weapons is no militia.
</debate>
Edited by BlackFlag on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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chmod
Jedi Knight
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:36 |
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| Quote (damien_s_lucifer @ 05 Mar. 2002,17:18) | Congratulations... you have just shown that not only did you barely even pay attention to what I wrote, you have no concept of Libertarianism or Liberalism, nor do you have any concept of taxation.
Libertarians : The Personal Income Tax is unfair, and reduces personal incentive. Other means of income should be found.
Liberals : Lowering taxes right now would plunge the government into debt, which is hardly productive. Find ways to make the government more efficient, slash the pork projects, and then lower taxes when it's financially viable. (Clinton and Gore went a long way towards this goal, by the way.)
Conservatives : Hey, look, everyone! When we get into office, we give out free money! Don't think about the long term consequences! Vote for us! |
Liberals don't want to lower taxes because they love wasting our money, not because they think it will put the country in debt. If they really wanted to keep the country out of debt, they would have tried to reduce the wasting of money in the government. And Liberals have never been about making the government more efficient, its QUITE the opposite!
| Quote | | (Clinton and Gore went a long way towards this goal, by the way.) |
You're joking, right? Tell me you're joking! Clinton and Gore did a great job of spending lots of money without much to show for it. $125 Billion spent on education, and %60 of poor kids in 4th grade can't read. 5 Billion misplaced by the Department of Agriculture. Another billion sent to Haiti, completely unaccounted for by the GAO. Great job, Al & Bill.
I think you need to get your facts straight. The Liberals (Gore & Clinton) HAD their chance to reduce the debt but instead wasted lots of money, kept the government fat, big and inefficient, and let the country suffer as a result.
Edited by chmod on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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BlackFlag
Objections noted; Notes discarded.
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:41 |
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| Quote | | Liberals : Lowering taxes right now would plunge the government into debt, which is hardly productive. Find ways to make the government more efficient, slash the pork projects, and then lower taxes when it's financially viable. (Clinton and Gore went a long way towards this goal, by the way.) |
Never once have i heard a liberal talk about governmental fiscal responsibility. NEVER.
here's how i see it:
Libritartians: Tax is a nesicary evil. Lets try to reduce it as much as possible, and make it as fair to everyone as possible.
Liberals: Our society could not operate without the government agencies that tax dollars fund. We must keep the esential programs running at any cost.
Conservatives: Lowering taxes boosts the econemy, which raises tax revenues. Combine this with spending cuts in unnessicary places, and we can have our cake and eat it too.
All 3 sides make valid points.
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damien_s_lucifer
Emperor of Detnet
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:49 |
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chmod, my response to you was rather rash... but hey, it sounded good 
No, I wasn't calling Libertarians "left-wing radicals", I was saying the people who push through P.C. crap are left-wing radicals.
Your summarization of liberals (more gov't, more rules, etc.) is a very common belief, but it's one that has been carefully crafted by conservatives.
As for my attack on the conservatives - I don't consider what are often called "fiscal conservatives" (Bob Dole et al) to be conservatives at all. They're usually Libertarian in nature, and in many ways they are the opposite of a true Conservative.
Your thoughts on taxation and government spending are understandable... a billion dollars is a lot of money. On the other hand, it's approximately 0.03% of the federal budget. It's like losing a nickel. And things *regularly* go missing in accounting, regardless of who's running the ship. Even in a small company, money gets spent on so many different things that it is damn near impossible to track it all. When you compare gov't accounting to business accounting, you'll find that the gov't actually knows more about where there money goes than anyone else.
Education was declining long before Clinton took office. He may not have turned it around and made is fly like an eagle, but he DID slow the rate of decline.
As for Clinton/Gore's work to make the gov't more efficient, you might want to get a good pro-Clinton book on the subject. You've heard a lot of the anti-Clinton rhetoric, so you may as well balance it out with some pro-Clinton stuff... and remember, you ain't gonna find ANYTHING unbiased on the subject, you'll have to get all the facts and make up your own mind.
BlackFlag : there are a lot of people, including me, that don't think a blob of cells is a "human life". That question is very much undecided.
As far as "forcing alternative culture" down your throat, we're not doing that at all. What we're doing is saying that we don't give a fuck what your morals, values, and beliefs are, so long as you're not out stealing shit, killing people, or trying to force your "bonus" morals on everyone else. In this society there are some basic values that are necessary for our safety, and we will enforce those, but otherwise you can do whatever the hell you want.
And we don't HAVE to force "alternative" culture on anyone. People are naturally deviant 
If you don't like it, feel free to complain all you want.
Edited by damien_s_lucifer on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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chmod
Jedi Knight
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,01:49 |
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| Quote (BlackFlag @ 05 Mar. 2002,17:41) | | Quote | | Liberals : Lowering taxes right now would plunge the government into debt, which is hardly productive. Find ways to make the government more efficient, slash the pork projects, and then lower taxes when it's financially viable. (Clinton and Gore went a long way towards this goal, by the way.) |
Never once have i heard a liberal talk about governmental fiscal responsibility. NEVER.
here's how i see it:
Libritartians: Tax is a nesicary evil. Lets try to reduce it as much as possible, and make it as fair to everyone as possible.
Liberals: Our society could not operate without the government agencies that tax dollars fund. We must keep the esential programs running at any cost.
Conservatives: Lowering taxes boosts the econemy, which raises tax revenues. Combine this with spending cuts in unnessicary places, and we can have our cake and eat it too.
All 3 sides make valid points. |
BlackFlag is absolutely correct. Although Liberals and Conservatives sometimes take those beliefs to ridiculous extremes.
But anyways. Going back to the topic at hand, I don't think you really get the whole idea of Libertarianism, dsl, which is this: The government keeps its interference with its peoples lives to a minimum, and simply provides for the basic rights (civil liberties, equality, freedom, etc) and makes sure that these rights do not inhibit those of anyone else. That's IT. You could really go on and on about how this is similar to liberals and conservatives suck if you want to, but that's just pointless. Libertarians are greatly different from BOTH Liberals and Conservatives. It's that simple.
Edit:
Another thing, I just saw your other post:
| Quote | | Your summarization of liberals (more gov't, more rules, etc.) is a very common belief, but it's one that has been carefully crafted by conservatives. |
Not really. It's been proven time and again to be as accurate as they say it is. I could offer evidence, but that's not what we're talking about here, start a thread if you feel like it.
Its like this. If you asked a liberal if those things about them were true (bigger gov't, waste money etc.) they would deny it and say that its conservative propaganda. If you asked a conservative if he believed in restricting freedom because of abortion, whatever, he would say it's liberal propaganda.
They're BOTH right. Both sides will put spin on things like that to cover up the truth, sometimes. But we all know that already.
Edited by chmod on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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BlackFlag
Objections noted; Notes discarded.
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Posted on: Mar. 06 2002,02:05 |
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A blob of cells is not human life. But what about a 1 month old fetus? How about a 2 month old fetus? 3? 4? I admitt that its hard to draw the line beween humanity and cellular life, but liberals don't even try. They think a woman should be able to walk into a clinic, and get 8 lbs. of human sucked out of her birth canal by a vacume tube mere hours before she's due to deliver. Have you ever seen pictures of partial birth abortions? I've seen plenty of shit on rotten.com and other gore sights, but pictures of partial birth abortions make me litteraly fucking sick.
If you shoot a pregnant woman and the baby dies, in some states, that's homicide. Kill them both, double homicide. Go through medical school, and you can kill as many babies as you want. God bless America/Babylon the Great who shall soon be falling a la Revelations.
(no, im not a religious right wing nut, but exposure to leftist bullshit propeganda tends to put me in counter-propeganda mode.)
Edited by BlackFlag on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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