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whiskey@throttle 
Kiloposter
Group: Members
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sep. 2000
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2001,16:47 |
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I'm scared. As the events of seven days prior are settling in, I find myself very scared at the position in which we, as a country, find ourselves. The government is prepared for an extended campaign - for all out war - and I'm not sure we're entirely justified in doing so. Even if we are justified, our actions seem to be less of “ridding the planet of an awful evil,” than “eradicating the swarm after being stung, despite the fact that we’ve been throwing rocks at the hive all along.” Bin Laden needs to go. I agree. He has too many followers and is bent on our absolute destruction. Furthermore, anyone else proven to be involved in any terrorist act needs to be punished appropriately. We have to send a clear message that violence is not the answer (ironically, with more violence). But that’s about all I can support. Truth is, we need to open our eyes about what our country has been doing abroad. We also need to realize that this attack, while sickening and heartbreaking, was a giant wakeup call to the US. It was these terrorists trying to say, "HEY! WAKE THE FUCK UP AMERICA. WELCOME TO OUR WORLD." I don't support what these killers did in ANY way. I think they are sick people with a distorted, evil perception of progress and justice. But I'm having a hard time ignoring the "whys" as each day goes on. I mean, think about it: there are people out there willing to slave their entire lives away just to get a chance to commit suicide in order to kill some of us! Think about that! That's a heavy fucking thing. I want to know why. I don't want to fight back - what's the point in that? Just more dead people. Why can't we work - and I mean earnestly work - to fix the problems between us? Anyhow, here are some opinions I'd like to share: quote:
Virulent, on SA:
First I'm going to say this: What happened on Sept 11 is a horrible thing and the people who perpetrated these crimes should not go unpunished... I hope they are tied to a rack and have their testicles ripped at and pulled by angry squirrels... But I have these points to express... 1. Has it occurred to you that these countries dislike you for a reason? They are not sponsoring terrorist regimes because your country is the beacon of freedom and wealth... It has to do with your awful, heinous actions in other countries... The U.S. Has sponsored terrorist regimes of its own most notably those in Nicaragua and surrounding areas... what was the deathcount there? 30,000? Oh, how about Iraq... what was that about... Oil!... 3,000,000 dead. You think that your government is fighting for freedom, that’s the biggest bullshit lie around... and you though the fundamentalist countries were brainwashed, heh! 2. Why should I have to go fight even though I'm not an American? You guys got punched in the stomach and now your whole country has been crying for fucking days... Myself I'd be ashamed to be represented by what CNN portrays... my god, these are not the actions of a strong country... Why should my friends and family have to die for a problem your government has caused? 3. Do you guys honestly think that George Bush is looking out for the best interests of "America"? Fuck that, An hour after this happened Mr.Bush and all his Cronies started stepping up to the podium for government support in their military endeavors... Mr.Bush was hoping for a situation like this, and the warning was there even with the Missle Defense system... But now he's a hero... I know nerves are frayed and everyone in the States is hoping for blood... but turn the mirror on yourselves a bit... You'll see your government for the evil monster it is... You have built your empire on the blood of others... that's why you're successful.(so has my country, but at least a lot of us see that)
quote:
From Jamesban, also on SA, regarding Michael Moore:
Documentary maker Michael Moore doesn’t want this country to make war — but he’s making some enemies. Moore, the man behind the TV series “The Awful Truth” as well as such films as “Roger and Me,” has been sending out e-mails and posting comments on his Web site, http://www.michaelmoore.com, that call for peace to such an the extent that some are finding them anti-American. “I feel I have a responsibility as one of those Americans who doesn’t feel good right now to speak out and say what needs to be said: That we, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants,” he wrote in one e-mail. “I know it’s a hard thing to hear right now, but if I and others don’t say it, I fear we will soon be in a war that will do NOTHING to protect us from the next terrorist attack.” The e-mails upset some of his fans so much that asked him to knock it off. “I apologize to any who have taken offense,” Moore wrote in a message this weekend. “No one wants to talk about politics right now — except our installed leaders in Washington. Trust me, they are talking politics night and day, and those discussions involved sending our kids off to fight some invisible enemy and to indiscriminately bomb Afghans or whoever they think will make us Americans feel good.” http://www.michaelmoore.com
I love my country. I love the USA with all of my heart. It is my home, and I'll die defending it without blinking an eye. But I'm wary of what the government has done to my country's image. I'm scared about what my government is getting me into. I'm terrified about having to fight for a side I think is somewhat to blame.
Whether you agree or disagree, if you can reply intelligently, I encourage you to do so.
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Hellraiser
PH34R M3
Group: Members
Posts: 977
Joined: May 2000
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2001,18:06 |
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Excellent post whiskey@throttle, you have brought up some points that I have been pondering myself, namely the facts that we as a people need to be more aware of how the rest of the world sees our country, and that the US needs to be ubercautious how it deals with this situation. quote:
Originally posted by DuSTman:
2: We go to war. Afganistan is a poor country, and much of the buildings are no more than piles of rubble now, there'd be very few good targets for bombing runs and cruise missile attacks, so it means an infantry assault. Astronomical casualties on both sides are inevitable.3: A special ops team to go in and assasinate bin laden - Not really practical as it'd take them ages to find one man in an entire country, and they'd be in great danger during that time. .. That seems to be it for our options. They all suck, but we gotta do one of them.
You mean these are our only TWO options. #1 was not an option. However, #2 is not as bad as a lot of people make out, we would take down the taliban which is a very oppressive and uncharacteristic of the people of afganhistan, thus there need not be that many civilian casualties. But we couldn't limit it to just the terrorist organization that bin Laden has built up, if we're gonna go after terrorism as we must, we need to take out everyone that has participated and supported terrorism that we know of around the world. My country is guilty of many blunders in foreign policy and has at many times come across in a bad light, but it is not nearly as bad in its dealings with the rest of the world as "Virulent, on SA:" has made out. Our country has helped to rebuild numerous countries that have been devastated by war, even if it was not war with us, we have poured billions into attempting to keep peace in volatile regions of the world, sometimes failing, but oft succeeding. On top of that, it is just plain wrong to say that our president was hoping for a situation like that. No American wanted this to happen. However, between Bush and Gore, I am very glad that Bush was elected last November rather than Gore, because I fear how Gore would have handled this situation much more than I fear how Bush will handle it. The biggest reason that there is anti-American sentiment in the middle east today is this: the US has not been consistant, and has involved itself where they didn't want it to, thus some fundamentalists who do NOT represent the whole populace feel that the US has defiled their holy Islamic land, some of whom have started to strike back in what they feel is righteous anger. However these people are not really following the teachings of their faith, as Islam is a faith of submission to God, tolerance for other peoples, and very strict guidelines for when it is okay to fight for your faith in jihad or holy war. This is just another example of people using religion to justify what cannot ever be justified. ------------------
Old farts never die, they just get blown away.
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DuSTman
70% water in a flexible container.
Group: Members
Posts: 797
Joined: May 2000
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2001,19:33 |
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quote:
Originally posted by CatKnight:
This is not a battle of good versus evil. this is a battle of us versus them. personally, I'd choose us. but that's just me.
I agree. The thing is that morality is as ever subjective, although heavily influenced by the attitude of society as a whole - the wests morality is sort of a degenerated christian set, so what we think is right is bound to differ from what someone of the moslem faith thinks is right, we have to put that aside in our logic. What is left? A group of people who will either kill us or be killed themselves. Lamentably, though, it won't just be afganistan we have to worry about. He's the head man and the main source of funding, but after he's gone what's left? A group of fanatical terrorists whos leaders just been killed, but are well trained and moderately armed. We'll need to do more than killing the head man, and that may lead to more countries being invaded. Exactly what Bin Laden wants, but as there's a paucity of alternatives.. 
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solid
Kiloposter
Group: Members
Posts: 1232
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Sep. 17 2001,21:06 |
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CNN's cathphrase is now "America's New WAR", if I remember correctly.
Feh, it's a bit propagandized, if not more.
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askheaves
Ack!!!
Group: Members
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sep. 2000
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Posted on: Sep. 18 2001,03:53 |
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Quibble not at the source of this quote (or my paraphrasation of it):The arguements have been that America is guilty of this too because we impose our morality on people. It's catchy, but remember that words have meaning. You can't impose freedom on people. You can't impose goodness. You cannot impose what is right. You can only liberate. And, in the process, we have rebuilt nations. We have fed people. We have sheltered people. We have attempted to fight for there personal health. We haven't always succeeded, but we've tried. What we impose is a lifestyle that's the best ever invented. That was Rush Limbaugh this morning. Thought the concept of what he was saying was interesting. And, it's a lot like that. When people are under a totalitarian regime, the only things they get to hear are right from the government. They don't hear about the billions we give in aid to countries, or about us protecting people in Iraq or Bosnia/Kosovo. They hear that we're sticking our big foot down in other people's affair, we're Satan, and we're responsible for poor people's miserable lives. Well, America has taken an evolving stand over the last 200 years that freedom is the way to go, and we won't rest until everybody is allowed to be free. If that means imposing liberation for people, then so be it. You're with us or against us. If you're against us, then you're probably just scared of us taking away your slave control over people or you're under that slave control. I'm proud and happy with the freedom that I can enjoy, and I'd love to see other people enjoy that too.
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